An Inside Look at Athlete Mental Health w/ Julie Kliegman

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello, I'm Chris Meek, and you've tuned to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward.

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As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

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Our special guest today is Julie Kligman.

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Julie is a writer and editor who was previously the copy chief of Sports Illustrated.

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Before that, she was the copy editor at The Ringer, weekend editor and breaking news contributor

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at The Week, and a news fellow at BuzzFeed.

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Her writing on a wide variety of topics has appeared in many news outlets, including the

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New York Times, Sports Illustrated, The Washington Post, The Ringer, Vulture, BuzzFeed, Vox,

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The Verge, Bustle, Washington Monthly, The Week, and many more.

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That's a lot of writing, Julie.

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Julie also is a frequent guest on radio programs and podcasts, often to talk about her first

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book, Mind Game, an inside look at the mental health playbook of elite athletes.

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Julie lives in Queens, New York, and is already working on her second book, a Rene Richards

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biography, tentatively titled Finding Rene.

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Julie Kligman, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Hi, Chris.

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Thank you so much.

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No, thanks for being here.

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So before we start, baseball season just ended.

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You live in Queens, New York, Mets or Yankees?

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Mets.

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Oh, you're killing me.

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I live in Queens.

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All right.

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Fair enough.

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You don't want to get shot that way.

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Yeah.

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They had a hell of a second half.

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Oh my God.

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Wild stuff.

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Nobody saw that coming.

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No.

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I didn't.

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So congrats to you and the Mets.

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We'll see what happens from here.

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Yeah.

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Exciting finished essay this season.

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But let's get into the real serious stuff here in the middle of the conversation.

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How did you choose writing as a profession?

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I always liked writing growing up, and I kind of knew from an early age that it wasn't necessarily

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fiction writing that was right for me.

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I just feel like my creativity doesn't work in that specific way.

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And in high school, I took a journalism elective.

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I also had the good fortune of working at my local newspaper after school in the sports

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department.

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And yeah, it kind of went from there.

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And maybe as a follow-up, did you always want to be a copy chief?

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No, that's a good question.

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Even before college, I didn't even know what a copy chief was probably.

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Copy editing is a career I fell into a little bit later, but I love it as well.

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So maybe as a follow-up for that, you were the copy chief at Sports Illustrated.

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Explain to people not familiar with journalism what a copy chief is and what a copy chief

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does.

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Sure.

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So a copy chief oversees the copy desk and the copy editors, which copy editing is about

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the finer points of editing.

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So whereas a regular editor might work with you on restructuring the introduction to your

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story or guiding you about which sources to contact for your story, a copy editor is much

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more concerned with the smaller things like grammar, spelling, style, also like legal

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issues that might crop up, we're kind of tasked with spotting.

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So really like the tiny things that seem really small, but could make or break your story

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at the end of the day.

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So it's the real important work, not just the meat of the story, but the actual behind-the-scenes

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nuts and bolts of a finished product.

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It is definitely the behind-the-scenes stuff, yes.

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What are the most critical aspects of your job that readers might not be aware of or

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fully appreciate?

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Yeah, I think copy editing in general is such an underappreciated job because it is so behind-the-scenes.

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So I don't think people necessarily appreciate how much time it takes us to go through a

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story or the kind of creativity involved with like suggesting a different word for

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something and preserving the writer's voice.

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So there's a lot that goes into it more than just like, is this comma in the right place?

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So you're not going to be the one winning the Pulitzer Prize, it'll be the actual author.

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Correct.

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Even though you made it look fancy and informal.

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Exactly.

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We need to come up with an award for copy chiefs, I guess.

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I know, that would be awesome.

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So is being a copy chief as much fun as being a writer?

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It's fun in a different sort of way.

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It works a different part of my brain, I think.

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And I really enjoy both jobs because I get to think about words and their meanings and

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how to communicate with people, but it's kind of exhausting if you're always doing the writing

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yourself.

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So I like to take breaks and copy edit and kind of streamline other people's work.

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And what are the professional pros and cons of being a copy chief?

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Yeah, I think the pros and the cons are that, like we talked about, it's just so invisible

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as a job.

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Like that can be a great thing.

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It can be really gratifying to let other people get the credit for their work and you stay

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behind the scenes, but it can also be kind of thankless at times.

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Sports Illustrated is obviously a well-known and respected publication, obviously requires

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talent and ability, but beyond that, how'd you land a job there?

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That's a good question.

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So I was coming from the sports and pop culture website, The Ringer.

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That's run by Bill Simmons and was bought by Spotify after I left, but I was looking

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around for my next step and Sports Illustrated actually had an opening for MLB Editor, which

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is not the job I ended up getting, but that interviews for that job kind of got my foot

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in the door.

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I also, to be honest, like this is the way so many jobs work nowadays.

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I had a connection at Sports Illustrated, I had a friend there.

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So it's all about who you know, right?

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All about who you know, exactly.

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So if there is one, what did a typical day look like for you as the copy chief at Sports

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Illustrated?

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Yeah, I don't know that there is a typical day.

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It depends on where we are in the magazine production cycle, really.

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But I could be spending a whole day on like a true crime long form piece, or it could

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be editing a lot of different articles for the website.

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It really runs the gamut.

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And what are some of the biggest challenges you face when editing copy for a major sports

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publication, especially when working with both print and digital?

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Yeah, so print and digital have very different needs and requirements and best practices.

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So you have to be really nimble to work with both at the same time at the same publication.

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And really just understand what each version of a story needs, because we might run something

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in print, and then the writer's like, wait, I want these like 300 words restored for digital.

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And that's like, not my favorite request ever.

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Sometimes we got to do it.

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So I remember as a kid, growing up, looking forward to Friday, not just because it was

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the weekend, but because my Sports Illustrated was coming in the mail, and that was going

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to be my Friday afternoon reading and the pictures out of my favorite athletes and stick

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them on my bulletin board.

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That has changed significantly in terms of how people obviously receive their media publications

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now.

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I know it's out of your expertise, but any sense in terms of the transformation percentage

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how many people still get the hard copy magazine on Fridays versus an online subscription?

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Yeah, so Sports Illustrated has transitioned to being monthly instead of weekly.

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But I don't have any hard numbers for you.

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But my understanding is that the print subscription is still pretty popular with readers, which

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is really gratifying and nice to hear.

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Absolutely, especially when you've got two different formats you're publishing and you

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that you're editing.

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And so you get your work out there two times.

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Absolutely.

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What separates a good sports story from a great one?

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And how does the editing process play a role in that?

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I think a good story identifies something that people are interested in, ask some pressing

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questions about it.

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A great story might arrive at some answers if those exist.

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And a great story has clean copy, of course.

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So the editing process has a lot to do with that.

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I also think a great story, at least in a magazine, is pretty snappy.

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It's paced pretty quickly.

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It keeps you reading, even if the story is like 6,000 words or something like that.

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So it can be pretty hard to achieve that in a given writer's voice.

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But it is possible.

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And I think that style and pacing are things that separate good stories from great ones.

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Is there a story that you're a favorite, that you're a part of?

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Oh, man.

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I will say, I loved my friend Shaker Saman wrote a story for the print magazine about

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NBA players who have never dunked, who can't dunk.

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That was a fun one.

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There's also like in a similar vein, there's a story by Ben Pickman that ran that was about

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NBA players who had only played a single minute in NBA history.

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So what that's like, just to have almost no impact, but still some impact on the box score.

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That's fascinating.

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So I can't imagine, excuse me, that there are NBA players that can't dunk.

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There are actually some out there?

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There are, yeah.

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I would have never, ever, ever guessed that.

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All right, let's get to the meat of the conversation here.

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Let's talk about your book.

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What inspired you to write about the mental health challenges of elite athletes?

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And why is 2024 the right time for a book like Mind Game to be written and published?

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So I grew up watching sports, playing sports.

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I played soccer and ran cross country and track.

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I also grew up dealing with some mental health challenges.

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Eventually, like far into adulthood, I was diagnosed with bipolar two disorder.

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So merging those interests just kind of felt natural to me.

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And 2024 is the right time because we're talking about this in sports more and more.

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We saw, especially in 2021, with Simone Biles at the Olympics, the COVID Olympics, and we

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saw Naomi Osaka around that same time pull out from the French Open.

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And those two events kind of lit a fire under the conversation around mental health in sports.

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So I do some work in the veteran nonprofit space with a lot of work in the mental health

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space for them.

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And prior to COVID, I just sort of saw that transition, not just in veteran mental health,

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but first responders and other populations, then just sort of generically in terms of

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everybody.

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And then COVID hit, to your point.

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And everyone's locked down, nobody can go anywhere.

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And so I've been talking about this tsunami of mental health post-COVID now where it could

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be up to 11 years before people seek treatment.

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We know that the medical workers, the frontline workers are the most at risk right now.

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So I appreciate and applaud people like yourself who are out there publicly talking about it

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and with these professional athletes.

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Because when I grew up, it was crazy cousin Jimmy at Thanksgiving, you don't want to talk

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about it.

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But now it's a real part of everyday life, a real part of more people than you're aware

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of.

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And it shouldn't be taboo.

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There shouldn't be stigma attached to it.

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And it's something we all face challenges at any given time.

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And so I just appreciate and applaud heroes like you that are out there.

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So thank you for tackling that.

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I appreciate that.

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Thank you.

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Of course.

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And you share that elite athletes face the pressure to be perfect.

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As part of the problem that fancy athletes is one dimensional.

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And by that, I mean, they're only athletes and as such, they should never fail.

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I think that is the understanding a lot of fans have, whether they would say that consciously

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or whether it's just like an underlying assumption in their subconscious.

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I think there's a lot of pressure on athletes who always win to always be tough to always

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know exactly the right next step to take on the field and off the field.

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So yeah, I do think that's a real issue with people putting athletes on a pedestal.

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And we'll get into the people interviewed in a second here.

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But in terms of the folks you've talked to and the professional athletes, those that

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consistently win, whether at the Olympic level, whether it's Tiger Woods, whether it's Kobe

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Bryant, do you any sense from them in terms of how they handled losing?

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What do they do mentally to kind of, I'll say, learn from it, move on and go on to the

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next thing?

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Or do they just kind of carry it and wear it and try and win that next championship?

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Yeah, I think there's a period where you have to grapple with it, but then kind of set it

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aside almost, not forget it necessarily, but just kind of like compartmentalize it.

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There's one player in my book, Brianna Scurry, the former US Women's National Team goalkeeper

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in soccer.

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And she was telling me that her performance coach for the team taught her to like, when

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a goal was scored on her in a game, she had until the time the goal was scored until the

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following kickoff to kind of like grieve the goal and be upset about it.

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And then when the game starts back up again, you kind of got to put it on the shelf, she

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said.

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That's a great way to put it.

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And before I forget, where can folks find your book?

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They can find it basically wherever books are sold.

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It's the publishers Roman and Littlefield.

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It's on Amazon, of course.

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It's on your local bookstore's website.

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You can ask the library to carry it.

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I love that.

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And Astoria Bookshop, which is my hometown bookstore, has signed copies available.

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Awesome.

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And Queens, where they're Mets fans.

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Yes.

241
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Exactly.

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I won't wear my own judge shoes when I go to your bookstore.

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Thank you.

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And maybe as a follow-up, how do the pressures of constant performance affect athletes' mental

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well-being?

246
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Yeah, I think it takes a huge toll on mental well-being because every day or every week

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or whatever the cadence of your sport is, you have to go out there and compete.

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It doesn't matter if you had a bad day before.

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It doesn't matter if you woke up feeling kind of sick.

250
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It just doesn't matter, right?

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You have to go out there and perform.

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And it's not as easy to take a sick day or a mental health day as it may be for some

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of us in other professions.

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In your book, you interviewed NBA player Kevin Love, who I think is one of the greatest heroes

255
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:58,880
out there in professional sports, Olympians Khloe Kim, Mikaela Maroney, and Adam Rippon,

256
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former U.S. Open tennis champ Bianca Andreescu, and many other athletes and experts from MindGame.

257
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Was there a common thread to their experiences and stories?

258
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Was every story unique or was it both?

259
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I think it's kind of both.

260
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The particulars of every story are different.

261
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What might have led to mental health challenges, what the particulars of the mental health

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challenges were, but on the whole, I mean, there are common themes throughout.

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And I think the major one is that everyone is prone to struggling with this, no matter

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how good you are at your job.

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And did you get a sense from them during the interviews where there may have been previous

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mental health challenges, or was it really just because of the eliteness of their profession,

267
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their sport?

268
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It definitely can go both ways.

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For some people, sports can be a great outlet for coping with their mental health.

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And for other people, it can spawn those pressures and those issues.

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And more likely, it's a combination of both.

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I know for me personally, getting on the elliptical or my Peloton, it's just like you had a bad

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day, go take it out on something for 45 minutes and move on and sweat it out, and then you

274
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feel a lot better.

275
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What are the most common mental health issues that elite athletes face?

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I think it's pretty similar to the rest of us.

277
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Some of the common ones are anxiety, depression.

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Football players or people who take a lot of hits to the head are dealing with concussions

279
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and often PTSD-like symptoms and stuff like that.

280
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But of course, eating disorders, depending on the sport, they can be more prominent in

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some sports rather than others.

282
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But yeah, they definitely run the gamut, same as it does in all of us.

283
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And if it is the case, without naming names, during your interviews, did anyone ever talk

284
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about having suicide ideation?

285
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Oh, absolutely.

286
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,400
Yeah.

287
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Unfortunately, but probably unsurprisingly, yes.

288
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And where does substance abuse fit into the picture?

289
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,800
Yeah, that's a really good question.

290
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:13,360
It's definitely a specific subset of mental illness that a lot of people deal with.

291
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With athletes in particular, there's such specific requirements about what they can

292
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and should put into their bodies, and yet issues with alcoholism still crop up.

293
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:33,040
There's a debate over marijuana and whether athletes should be allowed to consume that.

294
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,800
There's all sorts of other drugs, obviously.

295
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:42,360
I talked to some athletes and former athletes about using psychedelics, and that's a new

296
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:46,320
burgeoning area of where it's like, okay, can this help mental health?

297
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:47,640
Can it hurt it?

298
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:48,720
What's going on there?

299
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,800
So there's a lot to still be discovered about substance use in athletes, I think.

300
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,920
But yeah, there are certainly a range of issues that they can experience.

301
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,240
And I haven't done any research on this, and don't know if you know off the top of your

302
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:06,440
head, is there a certain percentage of professional athletes that have substance abuse?

303
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:11,200
I don't know off the top of my head what that percentage would be, but I think you would

304
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,760
see it higher in college athletes, which makes sense because in college populations

305
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,760
in general, you tend to see higher rates.

306
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:18,760
Sure.

307
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,400
That makes sense.

308
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,200
What is identity foreclosure, and how does an athlete's performance affect their sense

309
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,840
of self?

310
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:32,240
So identity foreclosure is a common psychology concept in which you choose one lane for your

311
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identity and foreclose on other options.

312
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,440
And so with athletics, there's something called athletic identity foreclosure, which is you

313
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:45,360
lean so hard into your persona as an athlete, that if you're left without your sport, you

314
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:47,040
don't really know who you are anymore.

315
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:52,640
So if you get hurt or sick, or you have to retire or something like that.

316
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,600
You tell the story of one of my all-time favorite players, because he went to my beloved alma

317
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:02,880
mater, Syracuse University, 10-time NBA All-Star Carmelo Anthony, saying where he grew up,

318
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,520
quote, men don't cry, and quote, vulnerability was a big no-no.

319
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,520
We all know about stigma around mental health.

320
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,360
How much does the, quote, tough it out mentality in sports culture contribute to mental health

321
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:14,360
issues?

322
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,080
Oh, I think it's huge.

323
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:23,960
I think the stereotypes, especially where Carmelo grew up in Maryland and New York,

324
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,600
those can be really, really huge.

325
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,200
And especially for men, he says men don't cry.

326
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I think that's so real and something that affects so many men in particular.

327
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,920
Are we seeing a shift in that mindset?

328
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,160
You've talked to, again, elite athletes.

329
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:47,480
We've talked about, we've got Michael Phelps out there, other pros who are peak performers.

330
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:51,920
Is that stigma changing or softening at all, or is it still there and it's the locker room

331
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,520
thing where you don't talk about it until you get home?

332
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,760
I think it's definitely changing, thanks in part to, like you said, guys like Michael

333
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:04,320
Phelps, guys like Kevin Love and DeMarco Rosen, guys like Carmelo, even his memoir

334
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:05,320
was really great.

335
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,200
I highly recommend it.

336
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,200
Yeah.

337
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:09,880
So I think we're starting to see it shift.

338
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,520
It's just like a slow generational process.

339
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,800
In a moment when you talked about male athletes, have you noticed any key differences in how

340
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:23,280
male and female athletes approach mental health, and are there gender-specific factors at play?

341
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:24,280
There definitely are.

342
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:30,200
I think men definitely suffer from the stereotypes that we were talking about, where it's harder

343
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:36,560
to open up, it's harder to cry and still be seen as a manly, tough athlete.

344
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,920
And then on the other hand, women kind of get looked down upon in a different way because

345
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,960
it's like, oh, of course they're crying, of course they're emotional, that's what they're

346
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,680
expected to be.

347
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,120
So it's hard to get taken seriously on either side of that fence.

348
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:51,800
We just talked about Carmelo Anthony's experiences.

349
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,160
Have you seen differences based on race?

350
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,160
Yeah.

351
00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,720
I think from talking to athletes, it's definitely harder for athletes of color to come forward,

352
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,080
particularly black athletes.

353
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:12,400
They just face the pressure to be so perfect and elude all criticism because of their race

354
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,600
that a fan might throw at them.

355
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,880
So I think it's just an additional layer of pressure on top of everything else that white

356
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:21,280
athletes are dealing with.

357
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,200
And are we seeing a shift in that at all?

358
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,200
For the better?

359
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,960
Yeah, I think we are.

360
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,160
I think we are.

361
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,240
But again, it's like with gender, it's really slow.

362
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:32,240
Slow.

363
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,240
Yeah, exactly.

364
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:39,080
How do fans and the media affect athletes' mental health, both positively and negatively?

365
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:47,280
So I think fans can support athletes by leaving supportive social media posts and stuff as

366
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:48,720
simple as that.

367
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,240
And just buying their jerseys and continuing to root for them when they come forward about

368
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,240
these issues.

369
00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:01,960
But you also see the flip side of it, where fans will harass athletes, especially related

370
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:02,960
to gambling.

371
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:10,000
If an athlete, quote unquote, loses you money in a gambling thing, a lot of fans will be

372
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,240
really harsh about stuff like that.

373
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,200
And that can take a real toll.

374
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,240
I didn't even think about the gambling aspect of it, because you can't turn on any football

375
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,080
game without seeing – and I'm not going to name names because they're not sponsors

376
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,920
– but without seeing any of the major gambling outlets in there.

377
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,560
And then of course, at the end, even my 12-year-old son picked up on this after they go to the

378
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,560
commercial, and if you have a gambling problem, please call 888-whatever.

379
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,200
It's like the first one's free type of thing.

380
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,200
Right.

381
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,160
Anyway, that's a different topic for another day.

382
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,480
What should we do differently?

383
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,040
Or can anything be changed in that respect, in terms of how fans and the media treat athletes?

384
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:53,160
Yeah, I think the media is getting better, but we kind of need to, as a group, keep telling

385
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,240
these stories, tell them sensitively, tell them in context.

386
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,980
It's not necessarily just that one athlete is struggling.

387
00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:06,480
It's that post-COVID, as we talked about earlier, we are in kind of a unique mental health crisis.

388
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,360
And I think fans can follow suit.

389
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,480
It's just remembering to treat athletes as people.

390
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,680
It sounds really silly, but I think it's true.

391
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,080
Well, and to that point, we talked about that earlier, they're put up on a pedestal, both

392
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,760
by themselves and the fans, because they're there because they are top of the top.

393
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:28,240
We expect them to be top of the top, and it's almost like we're setting them up for failure

394
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,780
when they don't win the gold or win the Super Bowl or anything like that.

395
00:23:32,780 --> 00:23:36,600
As a parent, I'm always curious about social media's impact on mental health.

396
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,560
You write about Makayla Maroney, who was famous for, quote, that face when she ended

397
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,520
up with an individual silver instead of gold at the London Olympics.

398
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,800
What was she dealing with during that time and after, and how does social media add to

399
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,280
her mental health challenges?

400
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,760
Well, yeah, it's really complicated because so many people just see this meme, right?

401
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,680
This one image of her taking a one snapshot of one moment in time.

402
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,940
But the truth is she was dealing with injuries during those games.

403
00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:09,620
She was also one of the athletes, unfortunately, being sexually assaulted by Larry Nassar.

404
00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:14,180
Although we didn't know that at the time, we wouldn't understand that until years later.

405
00:24:14,180 --> 00:24:19,180
But it's all to say there's so much going on behind the scenes for any one athlete,

406
00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:21,580
and we don't always know what that will be.

407
00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:28,700
I think of the treatment she got on social media when she met President Obama and made

408
00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:32,860
the not impressed face with him, which was so funny.

409
00:24:32,860 --> 00:24:37,500
And then some people thought that she was not impressed by the president.

410
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:43,620
And it's like, oh my God, it's like, get it together.

411
00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:48,620
And maybe you talked about the sexual assault from the gymnastics coach.

412
00:24:48,620 --> 00:24:50,260
Did you interview any gyms from that team?

413
00:24:50,260 --> 00:24:51,940
Again, you have to name names.

414
00:24:51,940 --> 00:24:54,340
I'm just curious if you talked to anybody who went through that.

415
00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:55,340
Yeah.

416
00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:58,740
I mean, Michaela was the only one I was able to talk to for this book.

417
00:24:58,740 --> 00:25:05,380
I had previously for Sports Illustrated talked to Simone Biles for just a few minutes.

418
00:25:05,380 --> 00:25:10,580
We didn't talk about Nassar specifically, but we were more focused on her mental health.

419
00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:15,620
But yeah, I just the toll it must take on these women is just horrific.

420
00:25:15,620 --> 00:25:18,940
No, it was great to see her make that incredible comeback this year.

421
00:25:18,940 --> 00:25:22,700
And so thrilled for her and for the team.

422
00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:26,260
What story about an elite athlete's mental health really stands out to you and whether

423
00:25:26,260 --> 00:25:29,340
it's in the book or not, and why is it so compelling to you?

424
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:33,060
Well, we mentioned Michael Phelps earlier, and I think he's worth highlighting just a

425
00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:39,420
little bit more because he was speaking up at a time when not many people were.

426
00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:45,260
And he has this way of being so precise and almost matter of fact about what he's going

427
00:25:45,260 --> 00:25:46,260
through.

428
00:25:46,260 --> 00:25:51,180
Like he'll tell you after basically every Olympic Games, he felt suicidal and the come

429
00:25:51,180 --> 00:25:54,380
down from it, no matter how well he had performed.

430
00:25:54,380 --> 00:26:00,700
And I just think someone who's that famous on a global level, being so precise and open

431
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:04,020
with people is really impactful.

432
00:26:04,020 --> 00:26:07,380
And wasn't he caught smoking marijuana before it became legal?

433
00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:08,380
Was that like his thing?

434
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:09,380
He was.

435
00:26:09,380 --> 00:26:10,380
Yeah.

436
00:26:10,380 --> 00:26:11,380
That was like the big scandal.

437
00:26:11,380 --> 00:26:12,380
Yeah.

438
00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:13,380
They're human beings.

439
00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:14,380
Exactly.

440
00:26:14,380 --> 00:26:16,020
They are human.

441
00:26:16,020 --> 00:26:20,020
Which elite athletes or maybe even just average athletes are real leaders speaking out about

442
00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:23,780
mental wellness and do other athletes look up to them for doing it?

443
00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:29,220
I love this question because it's not super often I get asked about like average athletes,

444
00:26:29,220 --> 00:26:30,220
right?

445
00:26:30,220 --> 00:26:34,100
Or people who aren't like the giant stars.

446
00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:38,100
I think on college campuses, one thing that's really cool to me is there's this wave of

447
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:42,340
speaking out that happens among college students.

448
00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:46,460
Obviously some of those kids are real elite athletes and will go on to play professionally.

449
00:26:46,460 --> 00:26:52,140
Many of course are not, most are not even, but they're forming these groups on campus

450
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:56,060
to reduce stigma and raise awareness.

451
00:26:56,060 --> 00:27:02,540
And I think obviously not everyone's on board that train yet or we want to be here having

452
00:27:02,540 --> 00:27:08,340
this conversation, but I think athletes do look up to their peers for coming forward

453
00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:09,580
and talking about that stuff.

454
00:27:09,580 --> 00:27:10,580
Yeah.

455
00:27:10,580 --> 00:27:11,580
It shows real leadership.

456
00:27:11,580 --> 00:27:15,940
Are you seeing sports organizations and teams doing a better job of addressing all athletes'

457
00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:20,540
mental health concerns than they were, or are they even doing enough?

458
00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:24,420
I think it's hard to say definitively that they're doing enough, but they are definitely

459
00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:26,980
doing more.

460
00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:33,340
Most teams and leagues now require some sort of mental health professional be on the premises

461
00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:38,700
for practices and games, whether it's a full-time employee or a contractor.

462
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:44,980
So I'd love to see those grow into like full departments at most organizations, but we

463
00:27:45,020 --> 00:27:48,020
are really seeing real progress there.

464
00:27:48,020 --> 00:27:51,780
About two years ago, I had the head sports psychologist from the University of Southern

465
00:27:51,780 --> 00:27:55,020
California on and actually spoke with her earlier this week.

466
00:27:55,020 --> 00:27:59,260
And they really are a tip of the spear, I think, in college sports for this, because

467
00:27:59,260 --> 00:28:03,420
they have, I believe it's nine counselors for 600 student athletes.

468
00:28:03,420 --> 00:28:06,740
So it's kind of a very good ratio.

469
00:28:06,740 --> 00:28:10,220
And then they also sign a split time between other schools where they share their expertise.

470
00:28:10,220 --> 00:28:14,940
But I just want to highlight that Robin Scholefield and team at USC, and also USC is my graduate

471
00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:18,460
alma mater, so I'm going to plug them as well, but I think just being leaders in the

472
00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:19,460
space.

473
00:28:19,460 --> 00:28:23,460
And so just, again, having people being forward-thinking, not backward-looking is going to be the real

474
00:28:23,460 --> 00:28:24,460
trick here.

475
00:28:24,460 --> 00:28:25,460
Absolutely.

476
00:28:25,460 --> 00:28:26,460
Yeah.

477
00:28:26,460 --> 00:28:30,460
We've been talking with Julie Kligman, author of Mind Game, an inside look at the mental

478
00:28:30,460 --> 00:28:32,460
health playbook of lead athletes.

479
00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:36,740
Coming up, we'll talk about Julie's next book project about sports trailblazer, Renee Richards.

480
00:28:36,740 --> 00:28:38,860
We'll be right back after a short break.

481
00:28:38,860 --> 00:28:39,860
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482
00:28:40,780 --> 00:28:46,940
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505
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519
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520
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521
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522
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525
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526
00:31:36,380 --> 00:31:41,380
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527
00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:47,380
Or send an email to Chris at nextstepsforward.com.

528
00:31:47,380 --> 00:31:50,380
Now, back to this week's show.

529
00:31:50,380 --> 00:31:51,380
And we are back.

530
00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:53,380
I'm Chris Meek, host of Next Steps Forward.

531
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:55,380
And my guest today is Julie Kliegman.

532
00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:58,380
Julie was the copy chief for Sports Illustrated.

533
00:31:58,380 --> 00:31:59,380
Julie's first book is Mind Game,

534
00:31:59,380 --> 00:32:03,380
an inside look at the mental health playbook of elite athletes.

535
00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:04,380
Julie lives in Queens, New York,

536
00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:07,380
and is a diehard Avid Mets fan, unfortunately.

537
00:32:07,380 --> 00:32:09,380
And is already working on her second book,

538
00:32:09,380 --> 00:32:10,380
a Rene Richards biography,

539
00:32:10,380 --> 00:32:13,380
tentatively titled Finding Rene.

540
00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:15,380
Julie, before we dive into the second half of our conversation,

541
00:32:15,380 --> 00:32:17,380
again, please share with us where we can buy a copy

542
00:32:17,380 --> 00:32:19,380
of your first book, Mind Game.

543
00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:20,380
Happily.

544
00:32:20,380 --> 00:32:24,380
Wherever books are sold, my local store, Astoria Bookshop,

545
00:32:24,380 --> 00:32:26,380
has signed copies available.

546
00:32:26,380 --> 00:32:27,380
I also go to Amazon, of course,

547
00:32:27,380 --> 00:32:29,380
or to the publisher Roman and Littlefield.

548
00:32:29,380 --> 00:32:32,380
And I always love it when readers go to the library.

549
00:32:32,380 --> 00:32:33,380
There you go.

550
00:32:33,380 --> 00:32:34,380
Thank you for that.

551
00:32:34,380 --> 00:32:37,380
Julie, how are the mental health challenges faced by elite athletes

552
00:32:37,380 --> 00:32:40,380
different from those faced by non-athletes?

553
00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:42,380
That's a great question.

554
00:32:42,380 --> 00:32:43,380
And I get that a lot.

555
00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:45,380
And I think it's important to note that

556
00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:47,380
there aren't necessarily a ton of differences.

557
00:32:47,380 --> 00:32:50,380
It's just that athletes are facing these issues

558
00:32:50,380 --> 00:32:53,380
while they're on such a public stage.

559
00:32:53,380 --> 00:32:56,380
And I think that really compounds the problem

560
00:32:56,380 --> 00:32:58,380
in a lot of cases.

561
00:32:58,380 --> 00:33:00,380
And whether they're the same or different,

562
00:33:00,380 --> 00:33:02,380
what can the rest of us learn that can help us

563
00:33:02,380 --> 00:33:04,380
in our everyday lives?

564
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:06,380
So when I talk to a lot of athletes,

565
00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:08,380
there are some common themes that emerge,

566
00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:10,380
like mindfulness.

567
00:33:10,380 --> 00:33:12,380
For some people, that means meditation

568
00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:15,380
or just more loosely focusing on your breathing.

569
00:33:15,380 --> 00:33:19,380
Sticking to routines is a really key thing

570
00:33:19,380 --> 00:33:21,380
for a lot of athletes.

571
00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:24,380
Athletes live and die by their routines,

572
00:33:24,380 --> 00:33:27,380
their workouts, their naps, their meals, everything.

573
00:33:27,380 --> 00:33:30,380
And while I don't think most of us have to be

574
00:33:30,380 --> 00:33:32,380
that strict about it,

575
00:33:32,380 --> 00:33:35,380
I do think there's some benefit to it.

576
00:33:35,380 --> 00:33:38,380
Was there any consensus in terms of mindfulness apps

577
00:33:38,380 --> 00:33:41,380
or routines that they would go through?

578
00:33:41,380 --> 00:33:43,380
Yeah, I think that varies from person to person

579
00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:46,380
rather than there being one true consensus.

580
00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:47,380
Okay.

581
00:33:47,380 --> 00:33:49,380
In your book, you touch on how career-ending injuries

582
00:33:49,380 --> 00:33:51,380
and retirement can really do a number

583
00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:53,380
on an athlete's mental state.

584
00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:55,380
How do these life changes affect elite athletes'

585
00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:56,380
mental and emotional well-being,

586
00:33:56,380 --> 00:33:58,380
and what resources are available to help them

587
00:33:58,380 --> 00:34:00,380
through these transitions?

588
00:34:00,380 --> 00:34:02,380
Because of what we talked about earlier

589
00:34:02,380 --> 00:34:05,380
with athletic identity foreclosure,

590
00:34:05,380 --> 00:34:07,380
a lot of athletes are not really prepared

591
00:34:07,380 --> 00:34:10,380
for career-ending injuries or retirement.

592
00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:14,380
So they may experience depression,

593
00:34:14,380 --> 00:34:16,380
just this feeling of withdrawal

594
00:34:16,380 --> 00:34:18,380
from this thing they've done their whole lives

595
00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:20,380
and now don't have access to

596
00:34:20,380 --> 00:34:22,380
for one reason or another.

597
00:34:22,380 --> 00:34:24,380
The resources they have available

598
00:34:24,380 --> 00:34:26,380
depend a lot on what sport they play

599
00:34:26,380 --> 00:34:28,380
and on what level,

600
00:34:28,380 --> 00:34:30,380
whether they have continuing health care,

601
00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:32,380
whether they'll have to get a different job

602
00:34:32,380 --> 00:34:34,380
in a different field

603
00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:38,380
in order to access that health care.

604
00:34:38,380 --> 00:34:40,380
I'm actually curious what you think about this

605
00:34:40,380 --> 00:34:42,380
because of your background.

606
00:34:42,380 --> 00:34:45,380
But one football player on the collegiate level,

607
00:34:45,380 --> 00:34:47,380
he was telling me that he wants to see something

608
00:34:47,380 --> 00:34:49,380
like a VA set up,

609
00:34:49,380 --> 00:34:52,380
but for former collegiate athletes.

610
00:34:52,380 --> 00:34:53,380
As you were just talking,

611
00:34:53,380 --> 00:34:54,380
I was thinking about that

612
00:34:54,380 --> 00:34:55,380
because in the military,

613
00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:57,380
when you transition from active duty

614
00:34:57,380 --> 00:34:59,380
to civilian slash veteran,

615
00:34:59,380 --> 00:35:01,380
there's a whole process and routine

616
00:35:01,380 --> 00:35:02,380
that they take you through.

617
00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:03,380
It's a little bit different

618
00:35:03,380 --> 00:35:05,380
because sometimes active duty military

619
00:35:05,380 --> 00:35:07,380
have a hard time putting a resume together

620
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:10,380
in terms of transferring their military experience

621
00:35:10,380 --> 00:35:12,380
into private sector, public sector experiences.

622
00:35:12,380 --> 00:35:14,380
That's part of it.

623
00:35:14,380 --> 00:35:16,380
But I absolutely think there should be something.

624
00:35:16,380 --> 00:35:18,380
I think the Players Union and Players Association

625
00:35:18,380 --> 00:35:19,380
for every league,

626
00:35:19,380 --> 00:35:21,380
that should be part of what they're doing

627
00:35:21,380 --> 00:35:23,380
because these,

628
00:35:23,380 --> 00:35:25,380
I'll say the kids as they're coming up,

629
00:35:25,380 --> 00:35:26,380
they're groomed for it.

630
00:35:26,380 --> 00:35:28,380
They're the elite athlete from age 12 or 13

631
00:35:28,380 --> 00:35:30,380
until they're 35 years old in the NBA

632
00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:31,380
or major league baseball.

633
00:35:31,380 --> 00:35:32,380
That's all they know.

634
00:35:32,380 --> 00:35:33,380
Right.

635
00:35:33,380 --> 00:35:34,380
And all of a sudden,

636
00:35:34,380 --> 00:35:35,380
the spotlight's not on them.

637
00:35:35,380 --> 00:35:36,380
They wake up and they don't have to go to practice

638
00:35:36,380 --> 00:35:37,380
or they don't have to do this

639
00:35:37,380 --> 00:35:38,380
or they don't have to do that.

640
00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:39,380
It's like,

641
00:35:39,380 --> 00:35:40,380
to your point,

642
00:35:40,380 --> 00:35:41,380
what the hell do I do now?

643
00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:42,380
Exactly. Yeah.

644
00:35:42,380 --> 00:35:44,380
And from research I've done,

645
00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:46,380
suicide ideation is becoming more and more prevalent

646
00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:47,380
in retired athletes

647
00:35:47,380 --> 00:35:49,380
just because of that fact of

648
00:35:49,380 --> 00:35:51,380
they've lost their sense of purpose,

649
00:35:51,380 --> 00:35:53,380
their sense of pride.

650
00:35:53,380 --> 00:35:55,380
A lot of them live for that limelight.

651
00:35:55,380 --> 00:35:56,380
And so it's just,

652
00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:58,380
I completely agree with that collegiate athlete.

653
00:35:58,380 --> 00:35:59,380
So thank you for raising that.

654
00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:01,380
Yeah.

655
00:36:01,380 --> 00:36:02,380
Do you think there are lessons

656
00:36:02,380 --> 00:36:04,380
that people who are retiring after long careers

657
00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:05,380
can learn from elite athletes

658
00:36:05,380 --> 00:36:06,380
who often go on top

659
00:36:06,380 --> 00:36:09,380
or frequently stay a year or two too long?

660
00:36:09,380 --> 00:36:10,380
Yeah.

661
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:12,380
I think it's hard to pinpoint

662
00:36:13,380 --> 00:36:15,380
exactly when to retire,

663
00:36:15,380 --> 00:36:18,380
but trying to go out at the top of your game,

664
00:36:18,380 --> 00:36:19,380
I think,

665
00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:21,380
is really something that can help

666
00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:24,380
instead of hanging on to something for too long

667
00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:27,380
just because you're afraid to explore other opportunities.

668
00:36:27,380 --> 00:36:29,380
And I mentioned age a moment ago.

669
00:36:29,380 --> 00:36:31,380
How can we better prepare young athletes mentally

670
00:36:31,380 --> 00:36:34,380
to manage the pressures of elite competition?

671
00:36:34,380 --> 00:36:37,380
I think we see a lot of increasing issues

672
00:36:37,380 --> 00:36:38,380
at the youth level

673
00:36:38,380 --> 00:36:41,380
with kids being pressured to specialize

674
00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:44,380
in one sport from such an early age.

675
00:36:44,380 --> 00:36:45,380
So I think a key thing there

676
00:36:45,380 --> 00:36:48,380
is to let them play different sports,

677
00:36:48,380 --> 00:36:50,380
let them do different activities beyond sports,

678
00:36:50,380 --> 00:36:52,380
and just find what they like

679
00:36:52,380 --> 00:36:55,380
and realize that not every kid

680
00:36:55,380 --> 00:36:57,380
is going to be LeBron James.

681
00:36:57,380 --> 00:36:59,380
It's a great point with playing different sports.

682
00:36:59,380 --> 00:37:00,380
When I grew up,

683
00:37:00,380 --> 00:37:01,380
you had three sports seasons.

684
00:37:01,380 --> 00:37:03,380
You played football or soccer in the fall,

685
00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:04,380
basketball in the winter,

686
00:37:04,380 --> 00:37:07,380
and baseball or track in the spring or tennis.

687
00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:08,380
And now in today's world,

688
00:37:08,380 --> 00:37:10,380
especially where we live in the Northeast,

689
00:37:10,380 --> 00:37:11,380
where it's very focused on,

690
00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:13,380
my kid's going to be the best X,

691
00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:15,380
and he's going to start at age seven

692
00:37:15,380 --> 00:37:17,380
and just funnel him or her for one sport

693
00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:20,380
for their entire childhood.

694
00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:21,380
That has to change

695
00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:23,380
because you're going to burn the kid out

696
00:37:23,380 --> 00:37:24,380
physically and mentally.

697
00:37:24,380 --> 00:37:26,380
They're not going to develop the way that they should

698
00:37:26,380 --> 00:37:28,380
physically and mentally.

699
00:37:28,380 --> 00:37:29,380
And so I'm glad you raised that.

700
00:37:29,380 --> 00:37:31,380
Maybe we should do an op-ed on that together

701
00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:34,380
if my writing can meet up to your standards.

702
00:37:34,380 --> 00:37:36,380
We'll see.

703
00:37:36,380 --> 00:37:37,380
But I guess maybe a follow-up to that

704
00:37:37,380 --> 00:37:39,380
that I just thought of,

705
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:41,380
now you've got name-image likeness,

706
00:37:41,380 --> 00:37:44,380
you've got the transfer portal,

707
00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:47,380
everyone's out there looking for the buck

708
00:37:47,380 --> 00:37:48,380
in terms of being NIL.

709
00:37:48,380 --> 00:37:50,380
They can transfer wherever they want every year.

710
00:37:50,380 --> 00:37:52,380
We just had the UNLV quarterback

711
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:53,380
leave after the third game

712
00:37:53,380 --> 00:37:54,380
because he can now transfer

713
00:37:54,380 --> 00:37:57,380
and get to keep his year of eligibility next year.

714
00:37:57,380 --> 00:37:59,380
Is this additional pressure of name-image likeness

715
00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:00,380
and that transfer portal

716
00:38:00,380 --> 00:38:02,380
of looking for that college football championship

717
00:38:02,380 --> 00:38:03,380
or that gymnastics championship,

718
00:38:03,380 --> 00:38:05,380
is that going to be a whole other layer

719
00:38:05,380 --> 00:38:08,380
of mental health challenges for these athletes?

720
00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:09,380
Definitely.

721
00:38:09,380 --> 00:38:10,380
I think there are certainly good things

722
00:38:10,380 --> 00:38:13,380
about those aspects being introduced,

723
00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:15,380
like the ability to earn money

724
00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:17,380
and the ability to transfer from a situation

725
00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:20,380
if you're really, truly unhappy somewhere.

726
00:38:20,380 --> 00:38:25,380
But yeah, the NIL comes with a lot of pressure,

727
00:38:25,380 --> 00:38:26,380
like how much are you earning

728
00:38:26,380 --> 00:38:28,380
compared to your teammates?

729
00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:29,380
Are you going to have to send some of it

730
00:38:29,380 --> 00:38:31,380
home to your family?

731
00:38:31,380 --> 00:38:34,380
Issues like that that crop up for a lot of people

732
00:38:34,380 --> 00:38:37,380
and foster more competition.

733
00:38:37,380 --> 00:38:40,380
So yeah, I think it's really tricky.

734
00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:43,380
And I'd never want to say that it's the wrong move

735
00:38:43,380 --> 00:38:45,380
because I believe that it's reasonable

736
00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:47,380
for athletes to want to be paid for their work.

737
00:38:47,380 --> 00:38:51,380
But man, yeah, it's just a whole other can of worms.

738
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:53,380
Yeah, they're supposed to be students.

739
00:38:53,380 --> 00:38:54,380
They're supposed to be elite athletes.

740
00:38:54,380 --> 00:38:56,380
And now they're business people.

741
00:38:56,380 --> 00:38:57,380
Right.

742
00:38:57,380 --> 00:38:59,380
It's a whole other world.

743
00:38:59,380 --> 00:39:00,380
And this just started, obviously.

744
00:39:00,380 --> 00:39:01,380
So I'm curious to see

745
00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:03,380
what the Harvard Business School case study

746
00:39:03,380 --> 00:39:05,380
is going to look like in 10 years on this.

747
00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:06,380
Oh, yeah.

748
00:39:06,380 --> 00:39:08,380
And we were talking before the break

749
00:39:08,380 --> 00:39:09,380
about athletes speaking up

750
00:39:09,380 --> 00:39:10,380
about their mental health struggles

751
00:39:10,380 --> 00:39:12,380
and the issue of mental health and well-being.

752
00:39:12,380 --> 00:39:14,380
What do you think has driven this recent wave

753
00:39:14,380 --> 00:39:16,380
of openness in the sports world?

754
00:39:16,380 --> 00:39:18,380
I think that's a good question.

755
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:21,380
And it's hard to know exactly for sure.

756
00:39:21,380 --> 00:39:24,380
But I do think the pandemic has kind of

757
00:39:24,380 --> 00:39:27,380
like sped this conversation along a little bit

758
00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:31,380
because so many people, athletes and not athletes,

759
00:39:31,380 --> 00:39:33,380
have experienced mental health challenges,

760
00:39:33,380 --> 00:39:35,380
often for the first time in their lives

761
00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:36,380
during the pandemic,

762
00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:39,380
whether it's dealing with grief from a loved one dying,

763
00:39:39,380 --> 00:39:42,380
whether it's dealing with being sick themselves

764
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:43,380
and having mental health symptoms

765
00:39:43,380 --> 00:39:47,380
that accompany that physical sickness,

766
00:39:47,380 --> 00:39:50,380
whether it's being away from your profession,

767
00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:53,380
like in sports, for a forced break

768
00:39:53,380 --> 00:39:55,380
due to social distancing.

769
00:39:55,380 --> 00:39:58,380
So we've seen that rates of mental illness

770
00:39:58,380 --> 00:40:00,380
have increased during the pandemic.

771
00:40:00,380 --> 00:40:04,380
And I think that has pushed people

772
00:40:04,380 --> 00:40:06,380
to a breaking point almost where they're like,

773
00:40:06,380 --> 00:40:09,380
hey, I got to say something.

774
00:40:09,380 --> 00:40:10,380
And do you think those athletes

775
00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:12,380
have made it easier for others inside

776
00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:14,380
and outside of sports to seek help?

777
00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:15,380
Absolutely.

778
00:40:15,380 --> 00:40:17,380
I pretty firmly believe that any time

779
00:40:17,380 --> 00:40:19,380
an athlete speaks up and is open about this stuff,

780
00:40:19,380 --> 00:40:22,380
that it's helping someone out there.

781
00:40:22,380 --> 00:40:23,380
I've been trying to get Michael Phelps

782
00:40:23,380 --> 00:40:24,380
on here for a few years.

783
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:27,380
So if you can help, would really appreciate that.

784
00:40:27,380 --> 00:40:28,380
In the past, and by the past,

785
00:40:28,380 --> 00:40:30,380
I mean right up to this minute,

786
00:40:30,380 --> 00:40:33,380
sports psychology has always been performance focused.

787
00:40:33,380 --> 00:40:35,380
Have you noticed a shift in sports psychology

788
00:40:35,380 --> 00:40:38,380
toward prioritizing athletes' overall mental wellbeing?

789
00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:40,380
I have, yeah.

790
00:40:40,380 --> 00:40:43,380
It's a little tricky because, yeah,

791
00:40:43,380 --> 00:40:47,380
performance is kind of part and parcel of it.

792
00:40:47,380 --> 00:40:52,380
But I do think that the best sports psychology professionals

793
00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:54,380
and best mental performance coaches

794
00:40:54,380 --> 00:40:57,380
do keep the athletes' mental wellbeing

795
00:40:57,380 --> 00:40:59,380
at the heart of the process.

796
00:40:59,380 --> 00:41:01,380
It's a little tricky, like I said,

797
00:41:01,380 --> 00:41:05,380
because it's not a very well-regulated field,

798
00:41:05,380 --> 00:41:06,380
sports psychology.

799
00:41:06,380 --> 00:41:09,380
So you have professionals with different credentials,

800
00:41:09,380 --> 00:41:11,380
some with no credentials at all.

801
00:41:11,380 --> 00:41:14,380
It can be difficult for athletes to tell who's reliable.

802
00:41:15,380 --> 00:41:19,380
But I do think that the best ones in the field

803
00:41:19,380 --> 00:41:23,380
keep athletes' wellbeing in mind at all times.

804
00:41:24,380 --> 00:41:26,380
And you write that the roots of sports psychology

805
00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:28,380
can be traced to the Alps in 1894.

806
00:41:28,380 --> 00:41:30,380
Never knew this.

807
00:41:30,380 --> 00:41:33,380
Would you share that story and whether it has relevance today?

808
00:41:33,380 --> 00:41:34,380
Yeah.

809
00:41:34,380 --> 00:41:36,380
So it's interesting.

810
00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:39,380
It has relevance today and it also doesn't.

811
00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:44,380
So in 1894, an Italian physiologist

812
00:41:44,380 --> 00:41:47,380
climbed a mountain with his brother,

813
00:41:47,380 --> 00:41:50,380
an army surgeon, a medical student,

814
00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:52,380
and 10 Italian soldiers.

815
00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:56,380
So they stayed there for about 24 days

816
00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:59,380
at a hut at like 15,000 feet.

817
00:42:00,380 --> 00:42:02,380
They wanted to go even higher, I think,

818
00:42:02,380 --> 00:42:05,380
but couldn't because of somebody's lung inflammation.

819
00:42:06,380 --> 00:42:10,380
So in one of the first, quote-unquote,

820
00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:12,380
sports psychology studies,

821
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:14,380
and I'm using this term really loosely

822
00:42:14,380 --> 00:42:17,380
because it feels more like exercise science,

823
00:42:17,380 --> 00:42:19,380
but in one of these studies,

824
00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:22,380
they made observations about

825
00:42:23,380 --> 00:42:26,380
how the participants were lifting dumbbells

826
00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:29,380
and what effect competing against each other

827
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:32,380
had for these soldiers at altitude.

828
00:42:33,380 --> 00:42:36,380
So they noticed that there was pretty natural competition

829
00:42:36,380 --> 00:42:38,380
that was fostered,

830
00:42:38,380 --> 00:42:40,380
especially when the soldiers were bored

831
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:42,380
because they were isolated together for so long.

832
00:42:42,380 --> 00:42:44,380
And this seems like common sense to us now,

833
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:46,380
but at the time it was more groundbreaking.

834
00:42:47,380 --> 00:42:50,380
So sports psychology then was rooted pretty firmly

835
00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:52,380
in exercise science.

836
00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:54,380
So it doesn't really resemble the sports psychology

837
00:42:54,380 --> 00:42:56,380
as we think of it today.

838
00:42:56,380 --> 00:42:58,380
But I still think it's worth noting

839
00:42:58,380 --> 00:43:00,380
because it's important to understand

840
00:43:00,380 --> 00:43:02,380
what the roots for this field are

841
00:43:02,380 --> 00:43:04,380
and how long this field has been around

842
00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:07,380
and been pushing to be taken seriously.

843
00:43:08,380 --> 00:43:10,380
You also quote Robin Vealey,

844
00:43:10,380 --> 00:43:11,380
a professor of sports psychology

845
00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:13,380
at Miami University in Ohio,

846
00:43:13,380 --> 00:43:14,380
as saying,

847
00:43:14,380 --> 00:43:16,380
people always say that there's the father of this,

848
00:43:16,380 --> 00:43:17,380
father of that.

849
00:43:17,380 --> 00:43:19,380
There are never any mothers of this.

850
00:43:19,380 --> 00:43:21,380
Who are the mothers of sports psychology

851
00:43:21,380 --> 00:43:22,380
and how does their work differ

852
00:43:22,380 --> 00:43:24,380
from the fathers of sports psychology?

853
00:43:25,380 --> 00:43:27,380
Yeah, I'm so glad I was able to include

854
00:43:27,380 --> 00:43:29,380
a little part about this in my book

855
00:43:29,380 --> 00:43:31,380
because what I realized

856
00:43:31,380 --> 00:43:32,380
when I was going through

857
00:43:32,380 --> 00:43:34,380
the sports psychology history chapter

858
00:43:34,380 --> 00:43:36,380
is that everyone I was quoting

859
00:43:36,380 --> 00:43:38,380
and everyone I was referencing was a man.

860
00:43:38,380 --> 00:43:41,380
I'm like, this can't be the full story, right?

861
00:43:41,380 --> 00:43:43,380
I mean, women were always around.

862
00:43:43,380 --> 00:43:45,380
Women were always involved in everything.

863
00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:47,380
Like there's gotta be some stories here.

864
00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:50,380
So one woman I highlighted is Dorothy Yates.

865
00:43:50,380 --> 00:43:53,380
She was a psychology professor

866
00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:56,380
at San Jose State College back in the 1940s.

867
00:43:56,380 --> 00:43:58,380
So a really early practitioner

868
00:43:58,380 --> 00:44:02,380
and she started applying basic psychology teachings

869
00:44:02,380 --> 00:44:05,380
to athletes on campus when they requested it.

870
00:44:05,380 --> 00:44:06,380
She worked with the boxing team.

871
00:44:06,380 --> 00:44:09,380
She worked with the track and field athletes.

872
00:44:10,380 --> 00:44:11,380
There's also Carol Oglesby,

873
00:44:11,380 --> 00:44:14,380
a sports psychology emeritus professor

874
00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:17,380
and former trustee at the Women's Sports Foundation.

875
00:44:18,380 --> 00:44:21,380
And she kind of explicitly connected feminism

876
00:44:21,380 --> 00:44:23,380
and sports psychology

877
00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:26,380
and wrote about the field

878
00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:28,380
from like a feminist perspective,

879
00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:29,380
which was really groundbreaking

880
00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:31,380
when you're working with like a lot of men.

881
00:44:32,380 --> 00:44:35,380
There's also another Dorothy, Dorothy Harris.

882
00:44:36,380 --> 00:44:39,380
She started the first sports psychology

883
00:44:39,380 --> 00:44:41,380
graduate specialization in the country

884
00:44:41,380 --> 00:44:43,380
and that was at Penn State.

885
00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:45,380
She also won the first Fulbright

886
00:44:45,380 --> 00:44:47,380
research scholarship in sports psychology.

887
00:44:48,380 --> 00:44:51,380
And then the last one I'll highlight is Ruth Hall.

888
00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:53,380
The three women I've highlighted before,

889
00:44:53,380 --> 00:44:54,380
I believe are all white.

890
00:44:54,380 --> 00:44:57,380
Ruth Hall was African-American

891
00:44:57,380 --> 00:44:59,380
and she took a naturally

892
00:44:59,380 --> 00:45:01,380
kind of intersectional approach to the field

893
00:45:01,380 --> 00:45:03,380
like with race and with gender

894
00:45:03,380 --> 00:45:07,380
and examined like how feminist sports psychology

895
00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:09,380
relates to women of color in particular.

896
00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:14,380
And she asserted that women of color

897
00:45:14,380 --> 00:45:18,380
are frequently viewed as second-class citizens in general,

898
00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:20,380
but of course in sports psychology in particular

899
00:45:20,380 --> 00:45:23,380
too and she called for more research on that topic.

900
00:45:23,380 --> 00:45:25,380
And I think that's an ongoing process

901
00:45:25,380 --> 00:45:28,380
is diversifying the field of sports psychology.

902
00:45:28,380 --> 00:45:30,380
Absolutely, no question on that.

903
00:45:30,380 --> 00:45:32,380
How did researching and writing MindGame

904
00:45:32,380 --> 00:45:34,380
affect your own views on mental health

905
00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:36,380
and sports and mental wellbeing in general?

906
00:45:37,380 --> 00:45:39,380
I think it really just strengthened my views

907
00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:41,380
that mental health is something

908
00:45:41,380 --> 00:45:43,380
that we really need to be talking about.

909
00:45:43,380 --> 00:45:45,380
We really need to be thinking critically

910
00:45:45,380 --> 00:45:47,380
about the role it plays in our lives,

911
00:45:47,380 --> 00:45:49,380
the role sports and athletes play in our lives,

912
00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:53,380
and what we can do to work toward solutions

913
00:45:53,380 --> 00:45:57,380
and better care for ourselves and for others.

914
00:45:58,380 --> 00:46:00,380
Just talk about it, right? It's okay.

915
00:46:00,380 --> 00:46:01,380
Yeah.

916
00:46:02,380 --> 00:46:04,380
You're already hard at work on your next book,

917
00:46:04,380 --> 00:46:06,380
which is a biography of Renee Richards.

918
00:46:06,380 --> 00:46:08,380
Who is Renee Richards and why did you decide

919
00:46:08,380 --> 00:46:10,380
that you want to tell her story?

920
00:46:11,380 --> 00:46:17,380
So Renee Richards is a former tennis player

921
00:46:17,380 --> 00:46:21,380
and she was born in the 1930s

922
00:46:21,380 --> 00:46:25,380
and in her 40s transitioned gender.

923
00:46:25,380 --> 00:46:27,380
So she's a transgender woman

924
00:46:27,380 --> 00:46:32,380
and she was quite good at tennis in her pre-transition life

925
00:46:32,380 --> 00:46:34,380
and remained good at tennis afterward

926
00:46:34,380 --> 00:46:37,380
and decided that she wanted to play in the U.S. Open.

927
00:46:37,380 --> 00:46:39,380
And the U.S. Open originally said no.

928
00:46:40,380 --> 00:46:42,380
So she had to sue the U.S. Open

929
00:46:42,380 --> 00:46:44,380
for her right to compete in that tournament

930
00:46:44,380 --> 00:46:46,380
and compete on the women's tour in general.

931
00:46:47,380 --> 00:46:50,380
So that was a pretty groundbreaking thing in 1977

932
00:46:51,380 --> 00:46:54,380
and would be pretty groundbreaking even today, honestly.

933
00:46:55,380 --> 00:46:56,380
So I wanted to tell her story

934
00:46:56,380 --> 00:47:00,380
because I feel like a lot of it has been forgotten to time

935
00:47:00,380 --> 00:47:02,380
even though Renee is still with us herself.

936
00:47:03,380 --> 00:47:06,380
And it's just something that I think needs to be known

937
00:47:06,380 --> 00:47:08,380
especially in light of the current context

938
00:47:08,380 --> 00:47:11,380
and debates around trans athletes and sports

939
00:47:11,380 --> 00:47:12,380
that we have today.

940
00:47:13,380 --> 00:47:14,380
So you mentioned she's still around.

941
00:47:14,380 --> 00:47:17,380
She just turned 90 years old on August 19th.

942
00:47:18,380 --> 00:47:19,380
Have you been able to interview her yet?

943
00:47:19,380 --> 00:47:20,380
Are you going to interview her?

944
00:47:21,380 --> 00:47:23,380
Yeah, I'm pleased to say I have already interviewed her

945
00:47:23,380 --> 00:47:25,380
and I will continue to do so.

946
00:47:26,380 --> 00:47:28,380
She's been very generous with her time

947
00:47:28,380 --> 00:47:30,380
and with sharing her memorabilia and all that.

948
00:47:31,380 --> 00:47:33,380
So yeah, she's been great to work with.

949
00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:35,380
What was that like interviewing,

950
00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:38,380
again, I'll say tip of the spear,

951
00:47:38,380 --> 00:47:39,380
somebody who's just a leader

952
00:47:39,380 --> 00:47:42,380
in terms of something new and different?

953
00:47:43,380 --> 00:47:44,380
I mean, it's pretty surreal to be talking

954
00:47:44,380 --> 00:47:47,380
to like a groundbreaking pioneer like that

955
00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:51,380
and just really being able to ask her whatever I want

956
00:47:51,380 --> 00:47:52,380
within reason, obviously.

957
00:47:52,380 --> 00:47:57,380
But it's just, she has so much to share,

958
00:47:57,380 --> 00:47:58,380
so many life experiences

959
00:47:59,380 --> 00:48:02,380
and it's just amazing to get to learn from her.

960
00:48:03,380 --> 00:48:04,380
And when can we expect this book?

961
00:48:05,380 --> 00:48:06,380
You can expect it.

962
00:48:07,380 --> 00:48:08,380
There's definitely some pressure

963
00:48:08,380 --> 00:48:12,380
but you can expect it out in June of 2026.

964
00:48:12,380 --> 00:48:13,380
Awesome.

965
00:48:14,380 --> 00:48:15,380
So it may be too early to answer this question

966
00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:17,380
or you may have chosen to write about Renee Richards

967
00:48:17,380 --> 00:48:18,380
with a goal in mind,

968
00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:21,380
but what do you hope readers take away from her story

969
00:48:21,380 --> 00:48:23,380
and especially in the context of current conversations

970
00:48:23,380 --> 00:48:24,380
around gender and sports?

971
00:48:25,380 --> 00:48:26,380
Yeah, more than anything,

972
00:48:27,380 --> 00:48:29,380
rather than coming away with a specific view,

973
00:48:29,380 --> 00:48:33,380
I just want them to understand the history of this debate

974
00:48:33,380 --> 00:48:37,380
and where it started in professional sports,

975
00:48:37,380 --> 00:48:38,380
at least in the US.

976
00:48:40,380 --> 00:48:41,380
No matter what you believe,

977
00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:43,380
I want you to have context when you argue for it

978
00:48:44,380 --> 00:48:47,380
and make informed decisions and ask informed questions.

979
00:48:48,380 --> 00:48:49,380
And I think that all starts

980
00:48:50,380 --> 00:48:51,380
with understanding Renee Richards.

981
00:48:52,380 --> 00:48:53,380
Novel idea, ask informed questions.

982
00:48:54,380 --> 00:48:55,380
Yeah.

983
00:48:55,380 --> 00:48:56,380
Crazy idea.

984
00:48:57,380 --> 00:48:59,380
So Renee's fight to play tennis as a woman

985
00:48:59,380 --> 00:49:01,380
happened more than 50 years ago.

986
00:49:02,380 --> 00:49:03,380
Did her battle for inclusion shape

987
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:05,380
the future of transgender athletes in sports at all?

988
00:49:05,380 --> 00:49:06,380
Or was that just so long ago

989
00:49:06,380 --> 00:49:07,380
that other events overshadow her now?

990
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:10,380
I think other events are overshadowing her

991
00:49:11,380 --> 00:49:12,380
for better or for worse.

992
00:49:14,380 --> 00:49:17,380
A lot of people and leagues

993
00:49:18,380 --> 00:49:20,380
don't tend to necessarily consult her court case.

994
00:49:21,380 --> 00:49:24,380
While it was definitely headline news at the time,

995
00:49:25,380 --> 00:49:29,380
it didn't really set any sort of legal precedent for this.

996
00:49:30,380 --> 00:49:33,380
It was decided in a New York state court

997
00:49:33,380 --> 00:49:35,380
and it was very specific to who Renee was

998
00:49:36,380 --> 00:49:39,380
as opposed to addressing transgender women

999
00:49:40,380 --> 00:49:41,380
or transgender athletes in general.

1000
00:49:42,380 --> 00:49:46,380
So I think we're really far beyond that point of her lawsuit

1001
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:48,380
and kind of in a different world now.

1002
00:49:49,380 --> 00:49:50,380
As a follow-up to that,

1003
00:49:51,380 --> 00:49:53,380
transgender athletes are under intense criticism and scrutiny,

1004
00:49:54,380 --> 00:49:56,380
especially girls and women who transition post-puberty

1005
00:49:57,380 --> 00:49:59,380
competing with cisgender girls and women.

1006
00:50:00,380 --> 00:50:01,380
Obviously, it's a delicate topic,

1007
00:50:01,380 --> 00:50:02,380
but is there an argument to be made

1008
00:50:03,380 --> 00:50:05,380
or is the solution that transgender athletes

1009
00:50:06,380 --> 00:50:07,380
should compete in a new division

1010
00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:08,380
created specifically for them?

1011
00:50:09,380 --> 00:50:11,380
This is a question I get sometimes

1012
00:50:12,380 --> 00:50:14,380
and I think it's really complicated.

1013
00:50:15,380 --> 00:50:16,380
I don't think the answer is as simple

1014
00:50:17,380 --> 00:50:18,380
as giving trans people a new division

1015
00:50:19,380 --> 00:50:21,380
because a lot of people can see that as othering,

1016
00:50:22,380 --> 00:50:23,380
whereas they want to just compete

1017
00:50:24,380 --> 00:50:26,380
with the friends they already have in schools

1018
00:50:27,380 --> 00:50:28,380
and stuff like that

1019
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:30,380
and just really be in a quote-unquote

1020
00:50:31,380 --> 00:50:32,380
normal category of people.

1021
00:50:33,380 --> 00:50:35,380
So while there are questions of competitive advantage

1022
00:50:36,380 --> 00:50:38,380
and stuff that research honestly still has to iron out

1023
00:50:39,380 --> 00:50:40,380
for the most part,

1024
00:50:41,380 --> 00:50:43,380
I don't think it's as simple as making a third category.

1025
00:50:44,380 --> 00:50:45,380
Nothing's that easy, right?

1026
00:50:46,380 --> 00:50:47,380
Right.

1027
00:50:48,380 --> 00:50:49,380
It takes time and thought and informed questions.

1028
00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:51,380
Exactly.

1029
00:50:52,380 --> 00:50:53,380
Julie, we have just a few minutes left.

1030
00:50:54,380 --> 00:50:55,380
Please take us into our conversation

1031
00:50:56,380 --> 00:50:57,380
with advice or a story that you've learned

1032
00:50:58,380 --> 00:50:59,380
from writing about elite athletes

1033
00:51:00,380 --> 00:51:01,380
that would help our audience feel less stressed,

1034
00:51:02,380 --> 00:51:03,380
more resilient, and become more empowered.

1035
00:51:04,380 --> 00:51:06,380
Yeah, I think just however you're feeling,

1036
00:51:07,380 --> 00:51:08,380
it's okay.

1037
00:51:09,380 --> 00:51:10,380
Feel free to look up an elite athlete

1038
00:51:11,380 --> 00:51:12,380
and they've probably felt the same way

1039
00:51:13,380 --> 00:51:14,380
at some point as you have.

1040
00:51:15,380 --> 00:51:16,380
And I think it's okay to take comfort in that.

1041
00:51:17,380 --> 00:51:18,380
And honestly,

1042
00:51:19,380 --> 00:51:20,380
then when you're ready to pay it forward,

1043
00:51:21,380 --> 00:51:22,380
speak up.

1044
00:51:23,380 --> 00:51:24,380
It doesn't have to be in public,

1045
00:51:25,380 --> 00:51:26,380
but speak up to a friend, a family member,

1046
00:51:26,380 --> 00:51:27,380
share your story.

1047
00:51:28,380 --> 00:51:29,380
And I think it's really empowering

1048
00:51:30,380 --> 00:51:31,380
to just share your experience

1049
00:51:32,380 --> 00:51:33,380
and pass that on to someone

1050
00:51:34,380 --> 00:51:35,380
who could use a hand.

1051
00:51:36,380 --> 00:51:37,380
Again, it's okay to not be okay.

1052
00:51:38,380 --> 00:51:39,380
Mm-hmm.

1053
00:51:40,380 --> 00:51:41,380
I also again want to thank you

1054
00:51:42,380 --> 00:51:43,380
for talking about and addressing

1055
00:51:44,380 --> 00:51:45,380
your challenges that you've had.

1056
00:51:46,380 --> 00:51:47,380
And so thank you again for that.

1057
00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:49,380
Julie Kliegman, author of Mind Game,

1058
00:51:50,380 --> 00:51:51,380
an inside look at the mental health playbook

1059
00:51:52,380 --> 00:51:53,380
of elite athletes.

1060
00:51:54,380 --> 00:51:55,380
And again, huge Met fan.

1061
00:51:56,380 --> 00:51:57,380
Thank you to each and every one of you

1062
00:51:58,380 --> 00:51:59,380
in our audience,

1063
00:52:00,380 --> 00:52:01,380
which now includes people in over 50 countries

1064
00:52:02,380 --> 00:52:03,380
for joining us for this episode

1065
00:52:04,380 --> 00:52:05,380
of Next Steps Forward.

1066
00:52:06,380 --> 00:52:07,380
I'm Chris Meek.

1067
00:52:08,380 --> 00:52:09,380
For more details on upcoming shows and guests,

1068
00:52:10,380 --> 00:52:11,380
please follow me on Facebook

1069
00:52:12,380 --> 00:52:13,380
at facebook.com forward slash Chris Meek public figure

1070
00:52:14,380 --> 00:52:15,380
and an X at Chris Meek underscore USA.

1071
00:52:16,380 --> 00:52:17,380
We'll be back next Tuesday,

1072
00:52:18,380 --> 00:52:19,380
same time, same place

1073
00:52:20,380 --> 00:52:21,380
with another leader from the world

1074
00:52:22,380 --> 00:52:23,380
of business, politics, public policy,

1075
00:52:24,380 --> 00:52:25,380
sports or entertainment.

1076
00:52:27,380 --> 00:52:28,380
Thanks for tuning in

1077
00:52:29,380 --> 00:52:30,380
to Next Steps Forward.

1078
00:52:31,380 --> 00:52:32,380
Be sure to join Chris Meek

1079
00:52:33,380 --> 00:52:34,380
for another great show next Tuesday

1080
00:52:35,380 --> 00:52:36,380
at 10 a.m. Pacific Time

1081
00:52:37,380 --> 00:52:38,380
and 1 p.m. Eastern Time

1082
00:52:39,380 --> 00:52:40,380
on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

1083
00:52:41,380 --> 00:52:42,380
This week, make things happen

1084
00:52:43,380 --> 00:52:44,380
in your life.

1085
00:52:44,380 --> 00:53:04,380
♪