Being Muslim Today w/ Saqib Qureshi

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello.

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You attended this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.

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As always, it's a pleasure and honor to have you with us.

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Our focus is on personal empowerment, a commitment to well-being, and the motivation to achieve

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more than you ever thought possible, and we have another outstanding guest this week.

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Dr. Saqib Qureshi is the author of Being Muslim Today, Reclaiming the Faith from Orthodoxy

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and Islamophobia.

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Dr. Qureshi lives in Toronto, he's a fellow at the London School of Economics and Political

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Science where he received his PhD in International Relations and Epistemology.

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His work has been featured in the Financial Times, the Wall Street Journal, and Entrepreneur.

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Qureshi has produced two films and in 1996, the BBC One documentary, Al-Dawah, the first

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television documentary about the Muslim community in any Western

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country. His previous books include The Broken Contract and

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Reconstructing Strategy. So Keeb Qureshi, welcome to Next Steps

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Forward.

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Thank you very much for having me on the show. Thank you.

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So I have to ask you before we start, I was hyping up the music

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for the intro. Do you live up to expectations?

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Yeah, no, I had a good jiggle over here. I exercised the knees

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a little bit. That was good fun.

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Perfect. Sometimes our guests like to dance. And so I always

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put that out there for folks if they want to. So no pressure on

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that.

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So there's so much about the history of Islam that people just don't understand.

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Let's start with the basics.

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Who is the prophet Mohammed and what role did he play in the founding of Islam?

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So the prophet Mohammed,

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Muslims consider him to be the last of God's prophets.

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And his role is really

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around crystallizing the final stage of the Islamic world.

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around crystallizing the final stage of the faith,

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a faith which begins with Adam, goes to, you know,

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Abraham and trickles down eventually to the last prophet

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who passed away in the year 632.

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And so he had the foundational role, really.

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He is the foundational role in the final journey

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of the creed of worshiping one God.

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And what else should people of other faiths or perhaps non-believers of any faith understand

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about the origins of Islam and its early history?

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The origins of Islam really, it's kind of begins, I think, in the seventh century, mid

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seventh century, late seventh century, the religion begins to form.

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crystallized over four or 500 years in much the same way that many other religions didn't

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just start on day one and continued as is in their entirety for the next X number of

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centuries.

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So Islam in that sense is not any different.

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The vast, vast bulk of the faith was really assembled to 300 years after the last prophets

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passing away.

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so what we have today is a very broad spectrum which is called Islam. It's not like a linear

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point or a linear line or a single point but it's a very broad spectrum and that's taken

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you know hundreds and hundreds of years of contradictory and conflicting opinions from

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all sorts of people and yeah it's just as you might expect it's been a messy journey to get

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to the point that we're at right now. Understood. What is the Qur'an and how is it regarded within

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the Islamic faith? So the Qur'an is a very interesting document. It's not like the Bible

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or the New Testament. The Qur'an is, and I'll be very pedantic, it's important that the words

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are chosen wisely in this particular answer. The Qur'an is an assembly of transcribed messages

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which the last prophet revealed by an angel from God

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during the course of his 23 years of prophethood.

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So it's a compilation of messages.

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The messages were transcribed after they were received.

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And 10, 15, 20 years after the last prophets passing away,

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they were put together in a book.

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And that book came to later be known as the Quran.

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And since then, it's become phenomenally, well,

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not immediately, but certainly by the late 7th century it took on a real resonance in

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the Muslim community as the centerpiece of the faith. One caveat that I often draw attention to

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is that each of those messages, like any non-written message, comes with its context,

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not only of who heard the message after the last prophet received it, what happened in the

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hour before the message, where were they geographically, what were the cultural, social,

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political issues or tensions that the message spoke to. The tone of a message obviously becomes

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very important as well and so all of that is never captured in a transcription and I've

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caveated this in my book that look we might have the transcribed messages but at least let's

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recognize that transcription is not the perfect medium to convey language.

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An oral message is delivered in its moment and its context is so important, whereas the

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written message actually has a very different context to it.

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There's a follow-up to that, what are the five pillars of Islam and why are they central

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to the faith?

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So the five pillars are bits and pieces that were assembled after the last prophet passing

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away.

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There were originally four, and we had the fifth and the five pillars.

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The anchor is overwhelmingly the worship of one God, and a God that has no partners, no

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sisters, no brothers, no friends, an absolute infinite entity, and the unmitigated worship

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of the one God, no son of, no whatever.

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So that is the anchor pillar of the Islamic faith,

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and that is, I think, it's probably

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the one thing that unites every single Muslim sect

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in the history of the religion.

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It's that commitment to undiluted monotheism

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in its absolute form.

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And then you've got four other pillars,

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and those focus really around charity giving,

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which is known as zakat.

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Then you have the annual pilgrimage

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to Hajj, which each person must do once in their lifetime,

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though the event takes place once every lunar year.

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And then you've got fasting during Ramadan,

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which is for 30 days.

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And that becomes very, very important as well.

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But I think the point that is worth

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stressing about the pillars, that they are not,

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that they were put together over a period of time.

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The fifth pillar, by the way, is the prayer,

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the prayer to that one Lord on a regular basis.

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And what parallels would you draw between the five pillars

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in some of the core beliefs of Christianity or other faiths?

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And by that, I mean, for instance,

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the practice of almsgiving seems very similar

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to the practice of tithing.

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Right, I think the similarities between the five pillars

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and the other faiths. So Judaism at least in the last couple of millennia

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has been a very monotheistic faith. It didn't quite start that way

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but it had become a very monotheistic faith and I think

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there's a massive overlap between Islam's commitment to

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the worship of one God and one God alone and

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monotheism. Charity giving is very very important to Islam and I don't

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just pay lip service to it because what I will say is that the Qur'an messages of the Qur'an

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resonate again and again and again with an obligation to be charitable to everybody and

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there is the kind of no ifs or buts to that premise it's like it just features as one of

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the central features of the of the faith um and I suppose I don't think uh the annual pilgrimage

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to Mecca and particularly around the Kaaba and the other important sites, I'm not quite sure

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of an equivalence in Catholicism or Protestantism, I don't think there is one in fact,

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and prayer emphasis is something that I think is strongly distinguished within the Islamic faith

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because it comes up again and again in the Qur'an, the importance of praying to God

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and remembering to pray to God. But I do think that the biggest

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overlap that I see is the fact that you've got the centerpiece of the

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Islamic faith which is a fierce commitment, an absolute

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commitment to monotheism and Judaism's maintained that for the last

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couple of thousand years. That to me is the big overlap in fact.

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And how do Muslims view God and what are the key attributes of God in Islam?

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Oh, my goodness me.

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That is a loaded question if ever there was one.

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So what are the attributes of God?

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Well, so I'm going to just say that here's a classic case of the diversity

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and heterogeneity of Islam, that there is no such thing as

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what are the attributes of God.

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You do have a list that has been compiled

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of some of the characteristics of God.

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And there are 99 names, the merciful perhaps

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being the number one, and beneficent

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being the two most that are associated with God

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are the beneficent and the merciful.

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So that's something that we see again and again.

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But within the spectrum of Islam, within its 1,400 years,

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it's unfair to say that there has

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been a single dominant interpretation

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of God, characteristic of God, beyond recognizing

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that in the Quran, his title as the Beneficent

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and the Merciful come up again and again and again and again.

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It's like another one which is perhaps also quite prominent

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is the Master of the Day of Judgment,

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not the master with a couple of advisors

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and not the master with some human beings giving

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their own $0.05 worth.

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No, the Master of the Day of Judgment.

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And so that's really the core set that I can think of.

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But really, what I will say is that to view Islam

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as a single ideology is a phenomenal mistake.

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No scholar worth half their salt is ever

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going to let anybody get away with this notion

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that Islam is a single ideology and has been so for 1,400

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years.

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It's not today.

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It wasn't 1,000 years ago, and it certainly

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wasn't during the formation of his faith either.

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So I guess for those who are not scholars,

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how would you educate them or make them aware

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that it's not this one to your point singular thing

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or singular faith?

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How can we educate today's world

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given that we've got the internet,

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you've got your, there's a computer in your pocket

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all the time in terms of translating that message

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in terms of being Islamic is not just one specific thing.

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Yeah, I think there are a few good authors out there who've done an awfully good job

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in putting together summaries of Islam.

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I'm not going to comment on my own book, but the likes of Raza Aslan come to mind as just

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one of many people who've put together some really interesting, good, comprehensive perspectives

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of Islam or reasonably comprehensive, I think.

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But this notion of the Islamic viewpoint or the Islamic interpretation of or Islam says

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X, Y and Z, you know, I think there's an awful lot of that, which is just mumbo jumbo.

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The caveat that I issue there is fundamentally around monotheism, like during the 1400 years

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of this faith, there has been no theological exception to that.

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been undiluted raw very very very firm monotheistic faith we don't pray to any human being we don't

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pray to muhammad or jesus or moses or abraham we don't pay we don't pray to a black cube that we

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do pray in the direction of and i know that the argument can easily be made that culturally

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culturally not theologically but culturally many muslims may go maybe a bit blurry of those

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defining lines so do some Muslims culturally end up praying at the at the

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Kaaba itself or do they worship the last prophet? Theologically no, culturally

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there's a bit of a debate as to whether whether their reverence for those icons

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extends a bit too far. You mentioned mumbo-jumbo was that a technical or an

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an academic phrase.

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No, that's somewhere not quite within the world of academia,

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but we'll try and shove it in in the postmodern world.

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And I appreciate you not wanting to talk about your book.

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However, for those who do want to read it,

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where can they find your book?

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Ah, Chris, so my book is available

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at all major bookstores, independent bookstores.

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So, and all your classic .com, .ca, .co.uk websites as well

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CA.co.uk websites as well for books.

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So it's out there.

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Yes, done quite well.

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And again, title is Being Muslim Today,

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Reclaiming the Faith from Orthodoxy and Islamophobia.

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So I always like to give the plug for the guests.

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And so don't worry about it, it's a shameless solicitation.

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So don't be bashful about it, it's what we're here for.

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All right, so back to Les Mumbo Jumbo.

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What is the Hadith and what is its significance?

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So the Hadith originally began,

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So hadith really comes from the word around narrations

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of or sayings of.

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And originally, when the faith got going in the 7th century,

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the hadith were the sayings of anybody

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who was important or who had gravitas.

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And over time, over 300, 400 years,

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the hadith took on a real prominence

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as exclusively being the sayings of the last prophet Muhammad.

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And really, by the 10th century onwards,

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there is a real commitment to treating

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hadith as incredibly important in the faith.

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And to some extent, some people would

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have argued even back then that it's

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as important as the Quran, which is a compilation of messages

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received by Muhammad from God.

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So hadith have become a very important point of sources

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within the Islamic faith.

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Today, it's very hard to have a conversation about Islam

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without a conversation about a hadith.

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And there's a massive debate and controversy around their role,

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because some people have argued that we don't need the hadith

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that were crystallized and given a stamp of authenticity

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in the 10th and 11th centuries.

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We don't really need them because the religion was

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completed to us in the year 632.

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And others would argue, no, that same religion

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that was completed in 632 makes inferences to what we now

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might consider hadith.

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And so therefore, we do have to observe them.

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It's a massive compendium of supposed statements

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that the last prophet made.

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Sometimes there's a context, a very, very limited context,

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which is elucidated.

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In most cases, there's no context.

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Some hadith, or a very small number of hadith,

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are not just the sayings, but they're

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the actual actions of the last prophet as well.

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But that does kind of, and we could

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enter into a very interesting conversation

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about the practices of the prophets

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versus the sayings of the last prophet.

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Hopefully we'll get to that.

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The Bible is contradictory in its teachings,

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and particularly when it comes to the Old Testament.

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There's the old an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,

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and the New Testament, in which Jesus turns to the cheek

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and tells his followers to do the same.

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It is consistent in both Testaments,

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though, about admonitions to love one another.

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How does Islam address those same sort

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of issues of justice, compassion,

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and loving one another?

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So how does Islam engage?

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I think that the first answer I give really

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is around God's manifestations or the attributes of God

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that we've understood.

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So at one end, merciful, at the other end, day of judgment.

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And day of judgment assumes, by definition,

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that you could be punished, which then raises questions

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around mercy.

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And that's an entire theological conversation

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that is hard for, I mean, I would argue it's very hard

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for a limited-mind human to get on top of,

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which might be a cop-out as far as an atheist is concerned,

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but I think, you know, I do turn around and I say,

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look, I'm not entirely sure that mankind or humankind

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is in a particularly strong position

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to empathize or understand God.

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So there's a headline there.

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Another very powerful angle that I'd wish to draw upon

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is that Islam has a very, very strong anti-violence theme

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to it, which is such an ironic thing in the modern era,

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in the post-1970s era, where the Islamic brand has been deeply

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associated with violence.

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But prior to 1970s, overwhelmingly, the brand

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was not linked to violence.

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And more importantly, the theology certainly isn't.

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And I mean, like I've mentioned many times,

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there are no Muslim fingerprints to the world's worst

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genocides.

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And as much as my non-Muslim friends would want to avoid,

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but Protestantism is to be found all over the Nazi creed.

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And the genocide in Congo didn't have any Muslim fingerprints.

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the genocide in North America, all via slow motion, that didn't have any Muslim fingerprints

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with either. So yes, there have been, there has been at least the most obvious one, Turkey and

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Armenia, which is the big standard exception. But fundamentally, if you look at the largest

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genocides in human history, there are no Muslim fingerprints. And so I do find it ironic that our

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faith, my faith, has been kind of lumped up with a brand that is unjustified, because the faith,

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the theology of the faith, is not only overwhelmingly anti-violent, but it's incredibly

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pluralistic, like to the point that it's kind of jaw-dropping. So to elucidate that,

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in the 7th century you've got this gentleman, Muhammad turns up, produces, well he doesn't

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didn't produce the book, but he received messages.

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And one of the messages that comes off,

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and it's actually in the Quran, is a message from God

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instructing the last prophet to not push his religion

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onto other people, but to compete in doing good

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with people of other faiths.

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And the emphasis on not compelling other people

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to convert, and your job is just to give the message.

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And if they don't want to convert, that's up to them.

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And I find that incredibly refreshing.

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Because if I look at Judaism and Christianity,

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you don't have to look very far into the New and Old Testament

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to see some quite massively aggressive diktats and stories

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and like, wow.

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How is it that the Old Testament talks about killing babies?

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It's like, well, I don't know.

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Whereas in the Quran, again and again,

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we're told the messages that come out are, look,

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violence is a bad thing.

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And when somebody else stops being violent to you,

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you have to stop.

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You just can't continue.

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I'm not saying that every single Muslim

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in the history of the religion, 1,400 years,

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including the 2 billion people around today,

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abide by every single atomic layer of that message.

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But if that's the theology, that's

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something to be damn proud of.

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I mean, my three boys, teenagers,

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have slowly learned to unhook themselves

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from the mass media marketing campaign,

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which goes out in North America and the UK,

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linking Islam to violence and nutcases and loonies.

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I've reminded them again and again,

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look at the theology of the texts, sorry, of the faith.

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Look at the texts themselves.

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It's repeated the same messages.

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You don't push your religion on anybody.

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give the message that's the end of that is it you compete for good deeds alongside other religions

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okay uh and when it comes to violence the moment somebody else stops being violent to you you have

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to stop you just can't continue there's no overkill there's no you know he hit me first

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okay and you defend yourself and you can't go around hitting them again it's like no it doesn't

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look that way. So I'm going to go off script here a little bit, if that's okay. And if this gets

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too controversial, personal, please tell me I'm not going to push it. You talked about your boys

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00:22:39,260 --> 00:22:44,060
there. You talked about your boys and talked about them unplugging from social media, which is

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obviously extremely difficult in today's world. I've got a 21 year old daughter, an 18 year old

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daughter and a 12 year old son. And so I feel your pain and your misery, but my listeners and viewers

355
00:22:53,580 --> 00:22:59,740
know that I was at ground zero on 9-11 and saw everything literally across the street from that.

356
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And obviously there was a huge, I'll call it an uproar, anti-Islam, things of that nature,

357
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after the attacks, for the terrorist attacks. A few months later, I was on a business trip

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from New York to Chicago. And I was in a sport coat and pants, I think, no tie,

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and we're in line going through security. And there was a young Islamic family in front of

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of me dressed in their attire, the burqa, young son, who was probably four or five,

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and either TSA or Homeland Security or both, asked them to step aside so they could be

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fresh.

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Randomly screened.

364
00:23:35,540 --> 00:23:36,540
Exactly.

365
00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:37,540
Exactly.

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And that's my point.

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And so obviously the family was very upset, very distraught, as they should be.

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And I was literally the next person in line.

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And for those of you who are listening right now, I'm a 6'3", white male, 220 pounds.

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And so they didn't randomly select me,

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but when that family made an issue about it,

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they then asked me to step out.

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And I said, of course I'll step out.

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And I understood exactly what's happening.

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00:24:02,060 --> 00:24:05,380
You know, your book is about being Islamic today.

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00:24:06,340 --> 00:24:08,740
You've got your boys, you've got you,

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00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:11,340
your family, your faith.

378
00:24:11,340 --> 00:24:12,400
What is that like?

379
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,080
Because it's sort of like, I guess, you know,

380
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:15,380
being African-American in the sixties,

381
00:24:15,380 --> 00:24:16,660
it was a completely different mindset

382
00:24:16,660 --> 00:24:18,200
in terms of how they were treated.

383
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,020
You mentioned the genocide in North America.

384
00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:22,220
So those are the indigenous people, the Native Americans

385
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:25,140
that have been, you know, crucified, if you will,

386
00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:27,620
for lack of a better word, for centuries now.

387
00:24:27,620 --> 00:24:29,580
In your own personal view,

388
00:24:29,580 --> 00:24:32,300
kind of what's it like growing up that way?

389
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,780
And then what are you doing,

390
00:24:34,780 --> 00:24:37,300
besides unplugging from social media for your boys,

391
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:40,060
to say that's not how we are perceived

392
00:24:40,060 --> 00:24:41,340
and that's not who we are?

393
00:24:42,260 --> 00:24:43,820
I just threw a lot at you, I'm sorry.

394
00:24:43,820 --> 00:24:44,820
Yeah, no.

395
00:24:44,820 --> 00:24:48,100
Look, I think growing up as a Muslim in London

396
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:52,660
in the 80s and 90s was not as problematic as the post 911

397
00:24:52,660 --> 00:24:57,160
universe. So I have been randomly selected for, for

398
00:24:57,180 --> 00:25:00,760
interviews to the cast come home, to the point that there

399
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:06,680
was a time where, you know, you kind of just expected it every

400
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:14,140
time you entered the US. And so there is that piece, there is

401
00:25:14,140 --> 00:25:17,040
that discrimination, that discrimination was given a lot

402
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:25,200
fuel, sorry, the ignition was really Bin Laden and the attacks and the fuel came from the right-wing

403
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:36,000
media. And it also came from a lot of people, a lot of Zionists who wanted to malign the

404
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:43,520
indigenous Palestinian right for human rights and self-determination. They used Islamophobia,

405
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:49,440
they backed a lot of islamophobes so that any muslim voice was discredited full stop

406
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,040
and so we've been through the heavy hitting of that and we've emerged

407
00:25:54,160 --> 00:26:00,000
and i think the muslim community of america and canada and the u.s these are communities that i'm

408
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:06,320
aware of that i'm integrated into some shape or form or another and they have learned some very

409
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:12,560
very brutal lessons about the universe that they exist in and the level of discrimination having

410
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:20,320
Having said that, there's also been a realisation in these communities that they are not just

411
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,440
Muslims in America, but they are off America.

412
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:29,560
So a point that's often made to me is that Muslims have been in the US since before the

413
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,760
US even existed.

414
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,960
Muslims have been in the UK since Shakespeare's time.

415
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:42,200
Many of the most important buildings in London, St Paul's Cathedral, Westminster Abbey, their

416
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:49,000
architectural design and spirit to buildings in the Muslim world, particularly mosques like the

417
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,960
minaret was copied and pasted and became the clock tower. The domes that you see in many of the

418
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:05,800
fantastic gothic cathedrals and late gothic cathedrals come straight from the Muslim world

419
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:12,360
and so we've kind of gone back reflected on reality and said actually we belong here

420
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:20,120
not just our architecture and our people but our ideas belong here you know it's

421
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:26,760
inconceivable to view the renaissance in western europe as having had nothing to do with islamic

422
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:34,760
thinking the transport of ideas was just the traffic free-flowing traffic both ways was just

423
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:40,440
immense like Europe influenced Islam, Islam influenced Europe and the two are now increasingly

424
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:46,120
from a intellectual point of view hard to break apart and so that's a message that I've

425
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,960
really shared with my kids because they grew up in an environment where

426
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:58,120
it's not unusual to be teased as a terrorist in the school playground and that's not nice

427
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:04,080
and it's you know it's especially not nice when you can keep in mind that the

428
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,680
theology of our faith is what it is number one number two to be linked to a

429
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,080
nutcase out in the caves of Afghanistan or Saudi wherever he was hanging out is

430
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,360
a bit like linking you know the average Protestant in the United States to

431
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:22,320
Hitler and let's face it I mean I you know I've made a mountain out of it I

432
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,880
think it's the right thing to do that for 12 years Adolf Hitler ran a campaign

433
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,260
where it was Protestant but what he was doing as far as he was concerned was

434
00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:38,760
cloaked and imbued and backed by the Protestant church, you know, and we don't

435
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:44,520
pin that down on every single US president pre-19, pre-John Kennedy, who was

436
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,840
the first Catholic president I believe, you know, or subsequent US presidents and

437
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,440
all the other American Protestants, we don't just do it, you know, so we got lumped

438
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,200
that with Bin Laden and there was an agenda behind that and I think American Muslims and

439
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:04,560
British Muslims have learned a bit about that agenda. We've learned that Zionism

440
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:13,760
will fuel Islamophobia. It's been doing that for decades now and there's an angle to it because

441
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:22,320
you will not find a Zionist who believes that Palestinians should not be forcibly removed or

442
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,880
should not have been forcibly removed and so it's an unfortunate reality that we're dealing with that

443
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:34,720
you've got these political pressures to do with the conflict in Palestine and Israel

444
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:41,920
impacting hundreds of millions of innocent people you know just as a means to

445
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,720
ethnically cleanse Palestine from homes that they've been in for generations

446
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,960
And we're kind of caught up in that mess, you know, and I think just making my kids aware of

447
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:58,000
what's going on around them. There hasn't been so much blocking out of social media, but it's been

448
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:08,640
an educational few years where I've had to remind them about who owns the media,

449
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,720
what are they trying to do, who's pushing the money in the media,

450
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,560
media, what is that money asking to be done?

451
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:25,160
And just recognizing the reality, particularly out of Western media, US media, CNN, Fox News,

452
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,920
how they're manipulated.

453
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:33,360
I appreciate you getting personal on that, and I know it was sort of off-topic and off-script.

454
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:34,880
And like I said, there's no gotcha questions here.

455
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,700
I try not to anyway, like I told you before the show, but if I could go a little bit further,

456
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:45,680
One thing I pride in this show is we're focused on resiliency and empowerment.

457
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,460
And that's what you're teaching and instilling in your boys, in your family, in your faith,

458
00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:50,860
in your friends.

459
00:30:50,860 --> 00:30:56,860
You mentioned before about being bullied as a terrorist, your boys on the playground,

460
00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:02,300
and how that's stereotypical, which unfortunately is correct.

461
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:07,460
In reality, if you think about terrorists in general, most of them are white guys like

462
00:31:07,460 --> 00:31:08,460
me.

463
00:31:08,460 --> 00:31:12,060
You know, you think about who just tried to take out, you know, then, you know, candidate,

464
00:31:12,060 --> 00:31:19,020
now President-elect Donald Trump. It's people like that that have these ideas. I live about

465
00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:25,740
20 miles from Sandy Hook, which exactly, you know, almost, well, my daughter's 18,

466
00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:30,380
so it'll be about 12 years ago this December, a young teenage boy who had some mental health

467
00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:35,740
issues went in and massacred in a school. And so, to me, that's a terrorist, whether

468
00:31:35,740 --> 00:31:38,140
whether they're mental health issues or not,

469
00:31:38,140 --> 00:31:39,540
white 19 year old male.

470
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:42,140
We talk about education.

471
00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:44,780
The U.S. education system,

472
00:31:44,780 --> 00:31:45,900
they're always changing

473
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:47,340
in terms of what are in the history books.

474
00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:48,900
What are we gonna teach our kids?

475
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:50,900
What do we want to brainwash them with

476
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:52,300
or not brainwash them with?

477
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:53,380
Have they removed Hitler?

478
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:55,900
Have they put Hitler in a banister?

479
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,620
One thing, a few research about a year or so ago,

480
00:31:59,620 --> 00:32:01,860
the Gen Zers, so I think that's between

481
00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:03,660
like 20 to 30 right now,

482
00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:06,700
one in five view Osama bin Laden favorably.

483
00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:11,780
Exactly, eye popping, jaw dropping, right?

484
00:32:12,940 --> 00:32:15,420
So put that aside, and this is Pew Research,

485
00:32:15,420 --> 00:32:16,540
this isn't some-

486
00:32:16,540 --> 00:32:17,860
One in five.

487
00:32:17,860 --> 00:32:22,860
One in five, 20% are sympathetic to Osama bin Laden.

488
00:32:24,540 --> 00:32:27,380
How can we, how can you and I, people of different faith,

489
00:32:27,380 --> 00:32:30,860
religions, countries, citizenship,

490
00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:35,860
get the message out there to say we're one civilization.

491
00:32:37,460 --> 00:32:41,340
It doesn't matter what race, creed, color, gender you are,

492
00:32:41,340 --> 00:32:43,880
we are one civilization on this planet

493
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,500
and how can we educate each other to,

494
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:48,900
we're never gonna eliminate hate,

495
00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:52,780
but to reduce that, the stereotypes

496
00:32:52,780 --> 00:32:53,860
that you mentioned before,

497
00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:56,300
because I'm always, I'm a lifelong learner

498
00:32:56,300 --> 00:32:59,280
and so folks like yourself who are academics,

499
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,080
You know, I can't imagine what it took for you to write the book,

500
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:08,240
being Muslim today, and really comprehending in terms of what it's really like.

501
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,200
Like I said, I was in line at LaGuardia Airport going to Chicago,

502
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,840
and I didn't think about it, and the family in front of me, to your point, was pulled out.

503
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:26,640
Look, I think, Chris, the U.S. has a fairly distinct problem,

504
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:32,760
and I don't think it's a problem which is shared by most of the Western world.

505
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:40,440
You go to any capital city, the embassy that's most guarded and it often looks

506
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:51,320
like a demilitarized zone around it is the US Embassy. London, Paris, I mean

507
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,880
forget parts of Asia and Africa because in those parts, in those countries, you

508
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,040
can't even get close to the US embassy without having to go through a tier of security checks.

509
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,240
And so the question that I've asked a lot of friends of mine in the US is why is it that

510
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:12,000
your embassy is the one that's always literally, you know, got tanks parked outside of it practically.

511
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,920
And I think the underlying reason for that is the disconnection between America's professed ideals

512
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:24,920
and its foreign policy, which is not particularly known to the vast majority of people.

513
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,920
Like, right now, here's the state of play in Palestine, just to elucidate that point.

514
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,920
Now, right now, you have an Israeli Prime Minister who has been charged with war crime

515
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,920
by the International Criminal Court. That International Criminal Court, as it happens,

516
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,920
was also advised to do so by a former Israeli ambassador,

517
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,920
who's one of the most senior judges when it comes to war crime.

518
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,040
And he's a Jewish, and he's a Holocaust survivor.

519
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,960
He's part of the committee that said, yes, we

520
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,840
should be charging Netanyahu with war crimes.

521
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,080
Now, you have a prime minister charged with war crimes,

522
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,880
potential genocide.

523
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,580
Prima facie, almost every academic in this space

524
00:35:03,580 --> 00:35:05,720
is saying, yeah, prima facie, this is genocide.

525
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:09,040
Let's go through the process, but prima facie is genocide.

526
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:16,640
The US's role has not been to hold back that or stop supplying

527
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:23,160
weapons, or enforcing sanctions, or using military force against

528
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,240
a genocide, but it's actually been proactively supplying and

529
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,480
sending military personnel to fight in the cause of the

530
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:39,120
genocide. Now, with that reality, it becomes very, very,

531
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:45,920
very hard for large parts of the world to ignore what US foreign

532
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,480
policy is doing today and has done in many parts of the world over the course of many,

533
00:35:50,480 --> 00:36:00,560
many decades. Iran had a democratic, the elected prime minister, Mosaddegh, a couple of generations

534
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,240
ago, but he was overthrown with the assistance of the CIA, not quite by the CIA, but certainly

535
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:13,560
with the proactive assistance. And the US has backed one dictator, whether monarchical

536
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,040
of military in Muslim-majority countries

537
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,440
should the cows come home.

538
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,320
And so the US brand in many parts of the world

539
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,400
is very negative.

540
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,200
And I'm just trying to link into the point

541
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:27,700
that you made about bin Laden, which

542
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:32,480
is that I can think of a fair few number of people who've

543
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,480
written stuff which essentially is along the lines of,

544
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,000
we hate bin Laden.

545
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,760
We think he's a bit of an idiot.

546
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,640
Doesn't know the first thing about religion.

547
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,140
But we do like the fact that he gave these American bullies

548
00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:47,460
knows. No, which is, it might seem contradictory, I can

549
00:36:47,460 --> 00:36:50,940
understand that. And it's a shame that we've got to that

550
00:36:50,940 --> 00:36:56,780
point. I can't but feel sorry for many of my friends in the

551
00:36:56,780 --> 00:36:59,220
US and I travel to the US very frequently and have very, very

552
00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:04,020
close friendships with people out there. And I just can't feel

553
00:37:04,020 --> 00:37:08,920
a bit of, you know, a bit sorry, because they profess certain

554
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:17,400
ideals around human rights, around freedom of speech, around the, you know, life, the right to

555
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,760
pursue happiness, you know, which is fantastic. And these are ideals which are shared globally,

556
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:30,040
with caveats, they're shared globally, but, you know, minor twists and hair, minor bits and pieces.

557
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:37,160
But the way US foreign policy is enacted in the, you know, in Africa, Asia, South America, again

558
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:42,760
and again and again, it's done in a way which, if it surfaced, would be deeply embarrassing

559
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:49,480
for the vast majority of Americans. I think until we get to the bottom of the disconnection between

560
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:55,080
the America that is talked about and the America that very often is, the United States will remain

561
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,880
in a precarious situation. I think what's interesting is that the British embassies

562
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:05,720
in most parts of the world are nowhere near as guarded. Nowhere near as guarded. No real

563
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:11,320
massive threat felt, you know, I mean, as compared to the American counterparts. And that's a lesson

564
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,680
for everybody, I think, to kind of think about it. Why is it that it's only the US that is the

565
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:23,560
country that seems to be unpopular, whereas our ideals, democracy, wanting freedom of speech,

566
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,560
wanting the right to pursue happiness and to due process and of course, that is embraced,

567
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:37,080
That's loved. That's really loved. In Iran, a lot of people are crying out for that. They're saying,

568
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,520
you know, we want the right to express ourselves. We want the freedom of speech. But, you know,

569
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,920
those Americans operating in the Gulf and the Middle East and what they're doing in Palestine,

570
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,920
disgusting. That to me is a big conversation, which I don't think is going to happen in the

571
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:59,800
the US, but I think it's one that is central to reconciling America's role in the world

572
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,560
and also its relationship with the Muslim world, because I think that is more problematic

573
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:11,840
than, let's say, British, French, German, Canadian relationships with the Muslim world.

574
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,320
I'm way off topic on this today, but this is a fascinating conversation to me.

575
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:21,520
You mentioned how you know a few folks who've written about bin Laden giving the US a bloody

576
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:22,520
nose.

577
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,560
talked about the U.S. embassies being the most guarded around

578
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,700
the world. But do you feel that the most guarded because we're

579
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:32,600
the most attacked? You've got the USS Cole, you've got various

580
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,440
embassies? You know, is it because we're just pushing our

581
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,120
out our ideals on the world? Or is this because I don't know

582
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:41,480
what?

583
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:46,760
No, America's military presence is global is everywhere. As

584
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,800
interference in foreign countries is everywhere, and is

585
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:59,960
often backing exactly those countries and governments and polities which are doing

586
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:06,440
things which fly flat in the face of what Americans profess as their ideals. Genocide

587
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:15,880
is not a stated American ideal. It is not. It might have happened, and the people will be

588
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:22,440
very embarrassed by it, but it's not an American ideal. So funding, protecting, and to some extent,

589
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:29,800
sending military troops for a genocide, it's not about American ideals. This is, you know,

590
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:39,000
I mean, really, I think, I think what you have is the fact that you've got American ideals,

591
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,360
but you've also got this complete dissonance about we'll just completely ignore them.

592
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:50,680
We believe in people's right for national self-determination, well, except when the

593
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:56,040
Palestinians want their country. We're not quite in it there. Or we believe in free and

594
00:40:56,040 --> 00:41:02,520
fair elections, well, unless Pakistan or Saudi are pro-Western partners, unless

595
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:07,720
it affects them. Well, all of these caveats, I mean, at the end of the day, the people on

596
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:10,760
the ground are going to feel them because they're going to say, well, why can't we have our own

597
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,360
government in our country, in Pakistan. Why can't we have free elections? Well, you can't,

598
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:20,040
because the Americans are funding the dictators. They're paying out the senior generals large

599
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,880
sums of money, and they're funding the military, and they're keeping the economy up, and

600
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:29,720
without their say-so, we can't have our own freedom of speech, we can't have our elected

601
00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:36,760
government. There is, in Pakistan right now, a very widespread belief that the country's

602
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:46,760
cleanest major politician and certainly the most popular politician in the country is

603
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:54,080
behind bars because the Americans want him there. That is widely accepted. It is widely

604
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,400
accepted that without the American nod, the military would not have locked away Imran

605
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:08,960
Khan for the most ridiculous criminal charges. And so what am I saying? In essence I'm saying

606
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:16,960
it would be nice, it'd be really nice, if the ideals that the American people professed to have

607
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,040
were actually taken seriously when it came to stuff outside of their borders. You could even

608
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,080
turn around and say it'd be nice if they did it inside their borders as well. But the disconnection

609
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:33,200
with outside their borders is so profound that I find it amazing that Americans generally don't

610
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:40,800
realize why it is that their embassies are typically the most guarded places in any

611
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,880
capital city in the world. I mean, actually, I'm going to go a step further. In some capital cities

612
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,160
in the world, the prime minister's residence and palace is less guarded than is the American

613
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:57,520
embassy. I have seen rulers of countries walk around without any security detail,

614
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,760
but I just can't see the U.S. ambassador doing that in the same country.

615
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,960
You talk about how we infiltrate in the CIA or whoever it may be, special ops,

616
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,960
kind of make things happen the way the U.S. wants them to happen. I'm not going to name

617
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,240
the network because I'm not a sponsor of the show, but my wife and I are binge watching a

618
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:25,840
a show called Lioness. And it is exactly like your scripting for Hollywood right now. So it's

619
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,920
sad but true. America loves a champion. We like to take out the bad guy, that sort of

620
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,520
thing. And so that's what it is geared towards. But I completely understand and

621
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:42,560
agree with what you're saying there. You've written three books. You've got two documentaries.

622
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,560
is you and I seem to see eye to eye on 99%

623
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,520
of what we're talking about today.

624
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,320
If you and I were to write a book

625
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,940
to help reshape world culture

626
00:43:54,940 --> 00:43:58,400
and how people would view religion generically,

627
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:01,280
what would you think about that?

628
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,280
A, would you do it with me?

629
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:04,420
I'm finishing my second book,

630
00:44:04,420 --> 00:44:06,480
but they're much lighter than yours.

631
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,160
Well, in terms of being a co-author with somebody

632
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,960
with a different religious background, I'm Presbyterian,

633
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,960
and my wife's Catholic, so you've got that sort of thing,

634
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,400
and sort of just teaching worldviews

635
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,900
in terms of how to be a good person,

636
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:24,520
how to be charitable, how to be nice to your neighbor.

637
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,880
We've got the American Thanksgiving coming up on Thursday,

638
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,800
and we have this open door policy

639
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,040
where if somebody has no place to go,

640
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:31,240
my door is open, come on in,

641
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:32,400
and there's plenty of wine and turkey,

642
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,400
so grab a chair and sit down.

643
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,640
What are your thoughts in terms of having that,

644
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,240
I'm not gonna say mind-altering or world-changing book,

645
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,040
but really opening people's eyes

646
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,840
and getting their perspective on how things are perceived

647
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,300
and how things actually are.

648
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,920
It would be wonderful if religion

649
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,600
could focus a bit more time and energy

650
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,880
on helping people to be nice

651
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,820
because it does a pretty bad job of it, I think.

652
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,760
Way too interested in the pettiness of rituals

653
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:11,920
And God knows what else, but not a lot of interest

654
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:13,400
in just being nice.

655
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:18,600
And there's a lot to be said for what you've just pointed out.

656
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,600
As it happens, my oldest friend, somebody

657
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,880
I've known almost my entire life, is a rabbi in London.

658
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,440
And we are doing something quite,

659
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,200
we are exploring something quite similar with respect

660
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,320
to interfacing ideas and communities

661
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:36,920
and getting conversations going.

662
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,520
But to your specific point about writing a book together,

663
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,560
yes, I mean, in principle, I would

664
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,360
be very willing to work with somebody

665
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:49,400
on pushing out a book which focus a little bit

666
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:54,840
on exchanging perspectives, like just making people understand,

667
00:45:54,840 --> 00:46:00,760
look, it's not as black and white and simplistic

668
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,480
as a lot of the very, very crude base media

669
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:05,520
has had you believe.

670
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:12,320
I mean, it's just not, there needs

671
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:16,520
to be an exchange of ideas and discussions and a realization

672
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:17,440
that we're all human.

673
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:22,120
And we all have, it's from that human identity

674
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,320
that we have value, not from our religious identity.

675
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,560
We're not more or less important because we're

676
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,680
Jewish or Christian or Sikh.

677
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,720
But we are equally important because we only

678
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:37,400
have value as human being, like being associated

679
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,500
with a particular religion or a particular paycheck

680
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:42,160
is neither here nor there really.

681
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,580
And this is the beauty of why I love doing this show.

682
00:46:45,580 --> 00:46:47,500
This is a hobby of mine.

683
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:51,160
And I get to talk to fascinating people like yourself

684
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:52,720
about things that I think are important

685
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:54,480
that people need to hear about.

686
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,640
And this conversation has been amazing.

687
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,560
I'm literally on page two of my eight pages of notes.

688
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,840
So that's how off tangent I've gone today.

689
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,520
So I apologize for that.

690
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,000
But back to your book.

691
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,160
What inspired you to write this book on Islamophobia?

692
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,760
So the book's got two foci.

693
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,120
Tackling Islamophobia is one.

694
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,760
And tackling Islamic orthodoxy is another.

695
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,800
And Islamophobia, the focus on that aspect of the book

696
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,640
was fundamentally in response to a question that my, back then,

697
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,000
he was 15 years old, my eldest son, who'd already

698
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,960
written his book, written a book.

699
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:32,080
and not the dumbest kid on the planet,

700
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,280
but he asked me in all sincerity

701
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,760
whether Islam was a violent religion.

702
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,420
And at first I thought he's obviously trying to wind me up

703
00:47:38,420 --> 00:47:40,480
while I'm watching a Premier League football game.

704
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:41,920
And then I realized that he was being serious,

705
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:43,480
at which point I was like, we have a problem.

706
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:44,400
And I went into my library

707
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,240
looking for a source to give to him.

708
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:47,520
I realized that I had nothing,

709
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:52,080
which was intellectually dead, dead honest, okay,

710
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:53,400
but was accessible.

711
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,360
You had a bunch of propaganda,

712
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:58,880
you had a bunch of academic documents and what have you,

713
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,760
which were designed for PhD students.

714
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:01,840
We had nothing else.

715
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,980
And so then I went online and I realized

716
00:48:03,980 --> 00:48:06,000
we don't really have material

717
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,500
for a relatively young, smart individual

718
00:48:09,500 --> 00:48:12,600
who is anti-authoritarian by virtue of Gen Z,

719
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,160
who's independent, who has Google and Wikipedia

720
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,040
and will always probe and push and question

721
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:19,920
and yet something which is accessible.

722
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,360
And so my job in that sense in the entire book

723
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,500
is really to bridge academia to the mass audience.

724
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:28,100
I mean, this is one thing that I was most sensitive to

725
00:48:28,100 --> 00:48:34,820
was I cannot be waffling with generalizations.

726
00:48:34,820 --> 00:48:36,940
It's got to be robust material, but it's also

727
00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:39,260
got to be readable.

728
00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:41,580
And so really, the Islamophobia piece

729
00:48:41,580 --> 00:48:43,780
was in response to what my son was saying,

730
00:48:43,780 --> 00:48:45,020
is Islam a violent religion?

731
00:48:45,020 --> 00:48:47,980
And realizing that he could not be the only person saying that

732
00:48:47,980 --> 00:48:51,620
or asking that question, and then realizing, actually,

733
00:48:51,620 --> 00:48:59,140
There's not really a sensible answer which a person can kind of get their hands on.

734
00:48:59,140 --> 00:49:03,740
It just kind of makes sense of and hence my putting that piece together in the book,

735
00:49:03,740 --> 00:49:08,340
you know, tackling Islamophobia was front and center to it.

736
00:49:08,340 --> 00:49:15,700
So how do you feel members of the community being both Muslim and non-Muslim will react to your book?

737
00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:19,380
So the Muslim community being kind of two responses.

738
00:49:19,380 --> 00:49:23,660
One is, you apostate, you heretic for questioning orthodoxy.

739
00:49:23,660 --> 00:49:25,900
And there's a second response in the Muslim community,

740
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:28,820
which is, thank you for lifting the weight off my shoulders.

741
00:49:28,820 --> 00:49:30,700
I knew something was wrong with orthodoxy,

742
00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:33,020
and now you've really nailed it for me.

743
00:49:33,020 --> 00:49:34,360
So there's been that response.

744
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,140
And the non-Muslim community's overwhelming response

745
00:49:37,140 --> 00:49:42,540
has been, I'm fascinated that this

746
00:49:42,540 --> 00:49:46,900
is Islam in contrast to what I have been reading.

747
00:49:46,900 --> 00:49:50,140
And I'm fascinated about the journey, the twists

748
00:49:50,140 --> 00:49:53,260
and the turns of the religion, how

749
00:49:53,260 --> 00:49:55,340
it changed in different directions

750
00:49:55,340 --> 00:49:58,500
at so many different points.

751
00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:00,620
That's been a real kind of positive.

752
00:50:00,620 --> 00:50:03,940
People have been really kind in that sense.

753
00:50:03,940 --> 00:50:07,260
And I think the common theme amongst everybody

754
00:50:07,260 --> 00:50:08,820
that I've spoken to is that they've actually

755
00:50:08,820 --> 00:50:09,980
enjoyed reading the book.

756
00:50:09,980 --> 00:50:11,780
It's like it hasn't been a bore.

757
00:50:11,780 --> 00:50:15,420
It hasn't been too difficult.

758
00:50:15,420 --> 00:50:20,300
And yet at the same time, it's been kind of packed with interesting or semi

759
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:22,220
interesting information.

760
00:50:22,420 --> 00:50:23,980
And again, the title of the book,

761
00:50:24,180 --> 00:50:27,780
Being Muslim Today, Reclaiming the Faith from Orthodoxy and Islamophobia,

762
00:50:27,980 --> 00:50:31,900
can be found on any.com.ca booksellers.

763
00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:32,980
The holidays are coming.

764
00:50:32,980 --> 00:50:35,140
I recommend that for folks and apologies.

765
00:50:35,340 --> 00:50:37,580
You've now met my dog, Zeke, who my listeners know.

766
00:50:37,780 --> 00:50:40,940
I think the UPS or the Amazon guy is here.

767
00:50:41,140 --> 00:50:44,140
Or maybe he's just objecting to the title of the book.

768
00:50:44,140 --> 00:50:49,220
That could be too. Are there any debates within the Muslim world today regarding the interpretation

769
00:50:49,220 --> 00:50:51,220
of Islamic teachings?

770
00:50:51,220 --> 00:51:01,420
Yes, there are, and they're becoming stronger over time. And a lot of that has to do with

771
00:51:01,420 --> 00:51:06,900
the internet, the explosion of information, the accessibility of information. You've got

772
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:12,740
more and more people challenging bits and pieces at many levels, both academic policy

773
00:51:12,740 --> 00:51:17,940
as well as individuals in a way that wasn't the case 30, 40 years ago.

774
00:51:17,940 --> 00:51:22,300
You have to understand that certainly when I was young, you know, we had dinosaurs floating

775
00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:27,540
around outside and when we wanted to access knowledge, it was the Encyclopedia Britannica

776
00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:31,900
or it was a ride to the library, which almost definitely didn't have what you needed, or

777
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:34,260
it was an entire project in itself.

778
00:51:34,260 --> 00:51:39,500
Today, all that information at your fingerprint, at your fingertips, and on top of that, if

779
00:51:39,500 --> 00:51:43,540
you can't get the answer, or you can't find an answer,

780
00:51:43,540 --> 00:51:45,260
you can send out an email to a professor.

781
00:51:45,260 --> 00:51:47,020
And if you're lucky, they may respond.

782
00:51:47,020 --> 00:51:49,980
If you send five emails to five different professors,

783
00:51:49,980 --> 00:51:51,540
one of them most likely will just,

784
00:51:51,540 --> 00:51:53,900
out of the kindness of their heart, give you a response,

785
00:51:53,900 --> 00:51:55,300
and then you'll be on your way.

786
00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:59,580
And so there really has been that

787
00:51:59,580 --> 00:52:02,060
with the current younger generation, I think,

788
00:52:02,060 --> 00:52:03,020
has access to.

789
00:52:03,020 --> 00:52:06,780
And because of that, there is a lot more vibrancy

790
00:52:06,780 --> 00:52:08,420
around religious debate.

791
00:52:08,420 --> 00:52:10,340
Having said that, in the Muslim world,

792
00:52:10,340 --> 00:52:14,300
in Muslim-majority countries, unfortunately, freedom of speech

793
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:15,540
is not a thing.

794
00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:18,460
And so any major questioning of orthodoxies

795
00:52:18,460 --> 00:52:21,820
in those parts of the world is a recipe for disaster.

796
00:52:21,820 --> 00:52:24,420
If you don't want a peaceful life,

797
00:52:24,420 --> 00:52:27,220
you start taking an independent view on religion

798
00:52:27,220 --> 00:52:29,780
in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran,

799
00:52:29,780 --> 00:52:30,540
or wherever else.

800
00:52:30,540 --> 00:52:33,500
And chances are, if society doesn't

801
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:35,940
make life difficult for you, then the state will.

802
00:52:35,940 --> 00:52:43,860
and one of the ironic advantages of being a Muslim off Britain and now living in Canada

803
00:52:43,860 --> 00:52:50,260
has been this freedom of speech, a wonderful environment in which to be able to think openly,

804
00:52:50,260 --> 00:52:56,900
discuss openly, be creative, get stuff wrong, you know, make a statement and then be corrected

805
00:52:56,900 --> 00:53:05,460
without having to face a prison sentence or a mob. Dr. Saqib Qureshi, thank you so much for

806
00:53:05,460 --> 00:53:06,300
for being with us today.

807
00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:07,900
It was an absolute pleasure, honor.

808
00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:09,500
I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation

809
00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:11,380
and I have to have you back because like I said,

810
00:53:11,380 --> 00:53:13,180
I've got six more pages of notes to go through.

811
00:53:13,180 --> 00:53:15,780
And so I really, really enjoyed your vantage point

812
00:53:15,780 --> 00:53:16,620
of your conversation.

813
00:53:16,620 --> 00:53:17,620
So thank you so much.

814
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:19,320
No, thank you, Chris.

815
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,140
I enjoyed it too.

816
00:53:20,140 --> 00:53:21,540
I hope the dog did as well.

817
00:53:21,540 --> 00:53:22,820
It was perfect.

818
00:53:22,820 --> 00:53:23,740
And thank you to our audience,

819
00:53:23,740 --> 00:53:25,860
which now includes people in over 50 countries

820
00:53:25,860 --> 00:53:28,720
for joining us for another episode of Next Steps Forward.

821
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:29,620
I'm Chris Meek.

822
00:53:29,620 --> 00:53:31,820
More details and upcoming shows and guests,

823
00:53:31,820 --> 00:53:33,060
please follow me on Facebook

824
00:53:33,060 --> 00:53:36,700
at facebook.com forward slash Chris make public figure and an

825
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:40,380
ex at Chris make underscore USA. We'll be back next Tuesday.

826
00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:42,980
Same time, same place with another leader from the world of

827
00:53:42,980 --> 00:53:46,820
business, politics, public policy, sports or entertainment.

828
00:53:47,020 --> 00:53:50,660
Until then, stay safe, and keep taking your next steps forward.

829
00:53:55,380 --> 00:53:59,220
Thanks for tuning in to next steps forward. Be sure to join

830
00:53:59,220 --> 00:54:02,740
Chris meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10am

831
00:54:02,740 --> 00:54:07,980
Pacific Time and 1 p.m. Eastern Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

832
00:54:07,980 --> 00:54:13,300
This week, make things happen in your life.