Civilization and Its Fate w/ Dr. Jon Mills

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello.

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You've tuned in to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward.

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I'm your host, Chris Meek.

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As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

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Next Steps Forward is committed to helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing

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greater personal empowerment and wellbeing.

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Our guest today is Dr. John Mills.

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He has written and edited more than 30 books.

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His latest, End of the World, is a warning to businesses, elected officials, and the

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rest of us about the dangerous precipice we are careening toward.

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It's a call for the only things that may save us, reason, logic, common sense, scientific

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inquiry, empirical reality and truth, civility, and prudence.

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Everything should be like that, right, John?

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Dr. Mills is a philosopher, psychoanalyst, and clinical psychologist.

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A resident of Ontario, Canada, he's also an honorary professor at the University of Essex

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on the faculty at Adelphi University, and a supervising analyst at the New School for

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Existential Psychoanalysis.

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Dr. John Mills, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Thank you, Dr. Meek, for having me on.

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Thanks for your time, John.

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I really appreciate you being here.

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So let's get right into it.

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The End of the World isn't a topic you'd expect for a podcast dedicated to personal empowerment

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and wellbeing, but it's one that's important to discuss, so again, let's dive right in.

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What inspired you to write End of the World?

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Well, it's a topic I was thinking about for the last 25 years or more, but you know, having

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lived through a doubling of the world population and then witnessing, you know, witnessing

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the deterioration of our environments, when the pandemic hit, I decided this was motivation

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to finish my little pet project.

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So that gets the credit.

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Only takes a global pandemic to finish a book.

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Exactly.

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In your prologue to your book, you say, we all have the need to find enemies.

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Would you elaborate on that, please?

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Well, as a psychoanalyst, you know, I don't have a rosy outlook about human nature.

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I mean, we're not just born, you know, gentle, loving, fuzzy creatures, you know, these are

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developmental achievements.

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So, you know, we have to acknowledge the fact that we are governed in many ways, meaning

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human nature is governed by animality.

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And so we can never really fully relinquish the fact that our minds are primitive.

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And so, you know, when we're beset by internal conflicts or external, you know, barriers

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to our existence, we naturally have a tendency to project our prejudices onto other people

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and particularly, you know, find defenses as a way of coping and scapegoats.

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So we displace, you know, our negativity onto others that we, in many ways, construct

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in a negative fashion.

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So it's something that, you know, it's just part of who we are as human beings and we

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need to be aware of the motivations for doing that.

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And what are the existential threats that we're facing and why do you think civilization

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may become extinct sooner than we think?

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Well, I'm worried.

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I think anyone who observes what's going on geopolitically in the world cannot stick their

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head in the sand.

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So I mean, with our climate emergency, with the projected notion of overpopulation, up

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to 10 billion people in the next 20 years, the constant rhetoric of warfare, of nuclear

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engagement, of, you know, of all these geopolitical clashes that we're experiencing internationally

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with governments and warfare, as well as, you know, technology and the social disparities

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and economic disparities that are, you know, polarizing people in terms of those who have

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the money and those who don't, these can all become, you know, pressurize one another.

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And so therefore, you know, I'm much more worried about the future than I would have

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normally have been, let's say, 30 years ago.

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We just finished a historic election here in the United States, one that nobody could

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have predicted.

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And leading up to that, and I still think to this day, here we are, you know, a week

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or so into the new administration, the United States population has never been more polarized,

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has never been more separate.

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And from my experience and my view, and it's my personal view, is that most of Americans,

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maybe most of the world, it's kind of like a bell curve, I call it, you've got 80% of

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the population here that they're gonna agree to disagree on most issues, but then you've

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got that five or 10% winged, you know, on the wings there, and they're the ones with

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the bullhorns, they're the ones with the bully pulpit.

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What can this 80% do?

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Because we're the ones that are electing our officials as a society to become less divisive,

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less controversial, and more focused on, you know, my wife and I have three kids, two in

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college, one in middle school, they're gonna inherit this mess.

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So what can we do today as a society, whether it's the United States, whether it's global

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situation, understanding the geopolitical risks that are out there, you've got the figureheads

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and then the heads of state that are gonna do what they do, but we're the ones that elect

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them for the most part.

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How can we change our mindset to get, to become less polarizing and to look more towards the

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future as opposed to look at tomorrow?

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Well, that's a million dollar question.

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We'd be in Tahiti right now if we had the answer, right?

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Yeah, you wonder about what are the forces that are driving such extreme polarizations.

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I agree with what you just said that there seems to be concentrated pockets on both sides

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of the political spectrum where you, you know, where you have more of a, you know, some kind

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of threat of authoritarian rule or value structure that's being imposed on the masses that are,

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like you said, more of the 80%.

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So you have the woke left, the extreme progressives, and who are engaged in identity politics that

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are, you know, flustering and aggravating the extreme rights side who doesn't want to

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fall into that way of binary thinking.

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Anything that encourages binary thinking that you are, you're good and the other is bad,

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you know, you're oppressed, the other is an oppressor, that's going to fuel that conflict.

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Maybe the enemy, as you referred to earlier, is being constructed out of these, you know,

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these basic mechanisms of splitting.

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It's a sorry state of affairs, unfortunately.

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But seeking the mean, I mean, seeking something more moderate, seeking, like, let's have a

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discussion without vilifying, demonizing the other is where a certain degree of civility

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and rational prudence that comes into play.

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Why can't we have a discussion about something where it doesn't devolve into some ad hominem

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name-calling or character assassination, it's just that we have different ideas.

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So let's discuss them without having to vilify one another.

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And that's such a novel idea because we used to be able to do that.

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Yeah.

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And now I'm afraid to go out with certain friends because if it comes up, it's not going

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to end well from a relationship perspective.

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And so I have just taken politics off the table of any conversation I have when I go

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out to dinner with friends and neighbors because I know what rabbit hole is going to lead down

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and my friendship and relationship with them is much more important to me than my political

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beliefs.

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And it's a sad state that we can't expose or express our political beliefs now because

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it's so divisive and a lightning rod.

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Yes.

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I guess it depends on what kind of friends one has.

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Fair point.

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Yeah.

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They've got their own views and they're entitled to those.

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Not all friends are able to tolerate ambiguities and need to have sides that are clearly demarcated.

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And when this is the case, it's like, OK, well, let's agree to disagree and we won't

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ruin the evening.

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Maybe as a follow up to this conversation, as individuals, it feels like our ability

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to make an impact is pretty insignificant.

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And if that's right, what's the motivation for us to keep trying or even get out of bed

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in the morning?

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Well, I mean, if we look at life in such bleak terms, I mean, then you've really, you know,

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failed to really examine the beauty of living.

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You know, like, we have personal relationships and ideals and values and life goals, and

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greater purpose and meaning to our lives that we have to, you know, become mindful of every

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day to stay attached to that, because if we don't, any one of us could slip into some

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kind of nihilism or depression and throw things up in the air.

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But in terms of, yeah, the greater scheme of things, meaning the bigger metaphysical,

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ecological, geopolitical questions, we might have very little significance on making an

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impact as an individual.

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But in terms of our collective identifications, the more that there are people who are like

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minded in our, you know, embracing what we value, the more of a group, a consensus,

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or having certain social collectives, letting their values, their minds, their ideas be

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known.

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And that is what makes change.

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In the book, you write about collective bystander disorder.

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What is collective bystander disorder?

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And what are the factors that contribute to collective bystander disorder?

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Well, I started to think about why is it that we are ignoring the empirical data that is

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not just being told to us by, you know, climate scientists throughout the whole world.

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I mean, hundreds of thousands of people who study this stuff for a living every day.

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But we also see it.

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We witness it.

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We experience it.

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Like, I was surprised that we had wildfires just an hour from our home here in Ontario

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about two summers ago.

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I mean, we see the world is burning.

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Now, one can claim it's not science, it's climate change or whatever, but whatever these

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denialists are about, we can't deny the fact there are certain phenomenon happening.

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So, it almost seems like that the majority of the world population feel so helpless that

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they're just watching a global crime happen right in front of their eyes.

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And they're not doing much about it, if anything.

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In fact, we're seeing that this year is the hottest on record, that even, you know, even

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the billionaires in Davos are all in consensus that even though they don't want to admit

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the fact that we were probably beyond a tipping point at this point.

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So, the collective global bystander effect is really a collection of us who probably

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feel quite helpless, not knowledgeable enough, not empowered enough, if not apathetic, or

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just dissociating these realities that are happening right before our very eyes.

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And it's often because these things aren't happening to us at the same time and in the

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same place throughout the globe.

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But it's enough for us to be concerned because if we don't start shifting our collective

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ethos toward adaptation to climate change emergency, we're going to be in the future

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suffering more than we are now.

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What is your own personal opinion?

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You mentioned the elite at Davos.

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You know, Larry Finks was the CEO of BlackRock, which is the largest asset management firm

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in the world.

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It was about five years ago, he put it, I think it was right before the pandemic, he

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put his letter to shareholders about how important and how basically number one their focus was

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on for ESG.

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And he just came out a month or so ago, basically clawing it all back.

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And they went from using the phrase ESG to climate, and now they've just pulled the whole

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thing back.

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It's only been five years.

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Then you mentioned, you know, did they realize we were past the tipping point?

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Like, is it too late to do anything?

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Because everyone's talking about net zero by 2050 and things like that.

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And now nobody's going to talk about it.

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They're just going to ignore it and say, it's not my problem because I've got 20 years

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left and that's it.

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Well, I would imagine it has to do with, you know, personal and capitalist greed.

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I mean, let's just be honest, you know, when people have money, they don't want to give

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it away.

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They don't want to have things imposed upon them.

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So they typically go along with, you know, either the current government that's in power.

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And now we have a Trump government in the States that's going to be very much pro-capitalism.

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And there's nothing wrong with that.

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It's just that there's proportional issues.

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And if we don't allocate the right proportional amount of resources into our world problems,

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and that means somebody is going to have to give up a little bit of the kitty.

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Which would be a logical thing to do, if you have tons of money, what's the skin off your

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back if you're giving back to, you know, to good cause?

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So, unfortunately, that's again, goes back to human nature.

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When I have something, I don't want to give it up.

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It takes a certain, you know, it takes a certain cultivation of personality, and like yourself,

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being, you know, a philanthropist, you know, giving back to people, to humanity.

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And not everybody has that, you know, in their psyche.

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My mother used to use the phrase, we can't change the world around us.

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I'm sorry, we can't change the world today, but we can change the world around us.

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And that's sort of become my ethos and my North Star.

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And I just try and share that with as many folks as possible.

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And you're right, you know, it's, I've got the money and it's, you know, won't be my problem.

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So we'll just move on.

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And to your point also, it's going to be, ultimately, I think at the end of the day,

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is they have to report to the shareholders.

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And if their performance is lacking because of their concentration in something else,

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whether it's ESG, whether it's climate, whether it's DEI, you're going to see that,

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and the shareholders will revolt.

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They'll be activists, and I'll, to your point,

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comes down to the bottom dollar.

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And that's unfortunate that that's where we are today.

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What are the consequences of collective bystander disorder in society,

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especially in times of global crises like climate change or humanitarian conflicts?

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Yeah, I'm sorry, can you repeat it?

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What are the consequences of collective bystander disorder on society,

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and especially in times like now of global crisis with climate change

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and humanitarian conflicts?

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Okay, so, well, the consequences are, we're seeing them, that you're,

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by people not speaking out, taking a stand on their values,

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on electing officials into, whether it be, you know, their government,

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people in political power, to make decisions for them,

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people in political power, to make decisions for social collectives' values.

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The consequences are going to be quite dire.

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I mean, again, I'm predicting in my book, if things aren't handled relatively soon,

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we're going to see the possibility of societal collapse

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in various pockets throughout the globe.

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And if that happens, entire infrastructures will collapse,

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economies will collapse, and the nature of globalization will be affected.

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In the meantime, you're going to have countries start cannibalizing one another

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because they want to secure the goods and securities for their own people.

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So, whatever nation puts their own people first is going to then

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want to do whatever they can to claw back as much resources and money for them,

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and it's going to set off probably some kind of interaction effect.

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And then if you've got more people on the planet,

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I mean, billions more people, let's say, in our lifetime,

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you have two more billion people, you can have 10 billion people,

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you have all these individual needs, strivings, and anxieties, mental health issues,

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health issues in general, standard of living, everything could potentially implode.

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You know, who can afford a house today now in North America for, let's say, the youth?

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And so, let alone what the world masses could bring about.

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If you have food or water scarcity, you're going to have less land which we need to live

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to produce food. You know, who knows what could happen? I mean, especially if you get some

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rogue actors that start playing around with nuclear weapons, it could be a really, you know,

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bad scenario. And let's not, you know, be an ostrich and stick our head in the sand.

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Let's tackle this stuff. Not to mention, you know, AI that's out of control. Who knows what

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could happen with misinformation, with the manipulation of the masses, with technologies.

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It could set off further deterioration, like we see, you know, in mental health for children and

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youth who are just glued to their devices and haven't really formed an appropriate,

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you know, cognitive development that they could further age.

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They call them screenagers.

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I've just heard that. Yeah.

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And before I forget, where can people find your book?

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Well, you can order it directly from the publisher, which is Roman and Littlefield.

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Or you can go to your Indigo bookstore, or you can get it off of Amazon, I suppose. It's

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everywhere.

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Perfect. You've written extensively on existential thought. How does the end of the world tie into

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that philosophy? And do you think our fear of the world's end is more existential,

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cultural, or driven by something else?

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Well, it could be a combination of many motives and factors. But, you know, when you think about

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the end, I mean, the existential tradition is really about actualizing your freedom.

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It's about coming into being as a, you know, as a free agent who chooses how one wants to live

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one's life. And when you realize that you're not going to be here forever, and that we have an

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intimate relationship of our being toward death, that means that every single choice you make

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every day is that much more significant. And when people realize they've been wasting their life,

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they don't—they're doing things that are meaningless, that are rote, that are just

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what they've been told or conditioned to think they should be doing, they feel helpless,

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or that life is meaningless. That's a motivation that, you know, you could live your life

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differently. You could make—take different routes of how you want to, you know, to enjoy

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living while you still can. So, I think this is all intimately connected. It's connected

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from a personal psychological perspective, from a greater social or cultural one,

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as well as, you know, a greater, you know, need for spiritual connection.

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Ultimately, when we get closer to, you know, especially as I'm getting old,

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you know, that stuff matters much more to me now than it did when I was a kid.

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So, and we will get to that. What message does end of the world have for government and business

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leaders? It means that anyone in a position of authority, whether it be politicians or the people

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we elect into our governments, they have a responsibility to the people they serve. And

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that means that they have to be honest with themselves and not just, you know, spew out

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nonsense that they think that the public wants to hear, simply because they're worried about

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the re-election campaigns. I mean, how many people are truly authentic in political offices?

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Very few. And when they are, they can be polarizing like Donald Trump. But nevertheless,

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you see what you get. I think we need people to embrace, you know, these messages from the book,

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and in terms of business as well. I mean, why can't you be thinking about the greater,

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you know, ethos of the society that you live and contribute to? So, I'm hoping this

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could be something that people start to think seriously about.

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I went to Syracuse for my undergraduate and graduate school in the Maxwell School

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for Citizenship. And in the lobby, there's a statue of George Washington,

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and on the wall behind him, etched in the wall, is the Athenian oath, which basically says,

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leave the city state greater than you found it. What can we do to change that? Because

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it's not happening right now. A million-dollar question again.

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Yeah. I guess it's very difficult for me to speculate on how a collective mind

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can get together and operate in a cooperative fashion. But we are a collection of individual

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minds that have our own ability to think critically, to introduce values and, you know,

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ethical responsibility to whether it be the planet, to our citizenry, to, you know, our neighbors.

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And there can be a lot more done on that individual level that could lead to a collective

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identification of people who want to say, this is what we want. This is what we need. This is

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what we're willing to give our money toward, or our taxes toward, or whatever it may be.

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So, the more people let their ideas be known, the less self-censorship. Even around, like you said,

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you go out for dinner, and I have to self-censor what I want to say because I don't want to

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alienate my friend. But these are difficult conversations that I think are important to have.

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I mean, if you start off by saying, listen, you know, we don't have to agree about things,

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but let's have a discussion. And it's not personal in the sense that I'm going to attack you

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if you happen to have a different point of view, but let's have a dialogue. And who knows,

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that might lead to something that you just didn't expect or didn't know.

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And so, I'm all about that. You have to have an open dialogue.

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Despite the title, End of the World is all gloom and doom, or is there a thread of optimism and

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resilience in there? If there is not a sense of optimism

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or resilience, one has to make it. I mean, because if I'm asking people,

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I want you to imagine the future where it's too late. And here we are, it's too late.

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If I can't imagine that we can't awaken from this state now, then that should be enough to be

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thinking, well, we don't want to get to that state where it's too late. Because that too late

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is just the opposite of resilience and opposition. It's having to accept our impending doom.

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And we can change that. What advice would you give to someone

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who is overwhelmed by societal inaction?

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I have to admit that I don't give advice to people. It always backfires if I tried.

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You get what you pay for.

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Yeah. What I would say though, is that you're responsible to live your life

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on your own terms, the best you can, and to know yourself and to think critically about

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who you are, what you want, what you can achieve if you find a certain purpose or meaning to your

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existence. And there's a requirement for you to become more self-enlightened in that sense.

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And we're all fumbling toward that. It's not something that you can just buy or purchase

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ready-made. There's no step-by-step manual that one can follow to get there. It really is a

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personal journey. And how can individuals build emotional and psychological resilience

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in the face of overwhelming global challenges like climate change?

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I think the more active one is, whether it be in one's thought, they're expressing their ideas,

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their concerns. Whatever impels them to act is better than being passive and

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resolute to something impending or happening to them. Cultivating an internal locus of control

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where you feel that you have something to contribute to your existence and others

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is where you have to search. Not to think that everything's going to be superimposed on you,

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and you need to cower in the corner like a child, but to fight back.

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To fight back. I love that. It's human nature. Fight for what you believe in.

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Doctor, how do you personally stay hopeful or grounded when researching and writing about

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such disturbing topics? Well, everything that I do in terms of my research is really my attempt

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at therapy. So, I'm trying to work out these problems in my mind. I think other people

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identify with them. So, in many ways, I feel more connected to, I guess you could say,

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this abstract notion of humanity. But it's meaningful to me to try to offer some kind

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of insight. Even if it's just that, then it would be to do nothing. And so, I think that's

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kind of where I'm coming from. You don't know unless you try.

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Yeah. So, let's talk about existential psychoanalysis for a moment.

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How is existential psychoanalysis different from other psychiatric approaches?

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Well, psychiatry basically today means go to a doctor, they'll do a checklist and tell you what

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disorder you have, and here's a pill to take. So, I'm in what we call the talking therapies.

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They don't want to be told what to do. They want to be able to have a sacred space,

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an intimate place to talk about what really is going on in their lives. What they're

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in trying to process and what they're experiencing on a very intimate psychic level.

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And so, through a dialogue, through a meaningful conversation,

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they come to understand their own minds better and their own place in the world.

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So, an existential approach is to help a person in their own process of becoming.

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Becoming aware of who they are, their potential, what they're capable of becoming and finding

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meaning and increasing a sense of agency and freedom in their existence.

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You've written and edited more than 30 books. I just finished my second one. It's still with

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a publisher. I don't know how you can possibly do 30 books. Coincidentally, there are two prolific

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writers named John Mills, same spelling, who live in Canada. The other one writes murder

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mysteries and thrillers. Have you two ever met? No, no. And the golfer, I haven't met either.

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Yeah. And if people want to reach out to you to speak to you or learn more,

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where can they find you? Well, they can go to my website or they can just Google my name and

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you'll find my website. Okay, perfect. Two of your books, in addition to End of the World,

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caught my eye for different reasons. The first is a very technical book titled

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Treating Attachment Pathology. It's the subject matter and your expertise in that area in

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particular that could be helpful to some people in our audience. Would you first share the

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foundations, motivations and importance of human attachment? And if so, how would you

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explain the importance of human attachment? Yes. Once again, my attempt to try to understand

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human development and the psyche brought me from classical psychoanalytic thinking,

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meaning Freudian thinking, to more contemporary work in attachment. And this was early in my

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career where I was, you know, practicing clinician. And I realized that this is where

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kind of really where it's at. Instead of just like these unconscious drives that are out there

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acting in crazy ways, we really, you know, our psychological development is so contingent upon

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the quality of our attachment to, you know, our family, to our parents, our siblings, other very

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important caregivers early in life. And that's kind of the bedrock of what more of a mature

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personality is built on. So, the capacity for love, for intimacy, for emotional connection to others,

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it really can be profoundly conditioned by your early experiences in your family attachments.

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And that's a great segue to the next question, or maybe as a follow-up is,

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why do humans have such a deep-seated need to connect with others?

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Well, that why question always leads us to, at least it leads me to say that things are

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overdetermined. There are many different causal forces, you know, of course, some of which are

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biologically based or based in evolutionary, you know, development. So, even when we look at

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the animal world, we see, you know, bonds of attachment between, you know,

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mothers, particularly, but not just mothers. You'll see fathers part of the family system

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that are protective. And so, even though I think it's an uncontested fact to say that

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our material embodiment has got evolutionary roots to it, what it means to be,

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you know, a human being or a person or a subject with one's own unique self-identity

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is really about the quality of your inner lived experiences. And so, what do most people want?

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Well, they would like to have, you know, meaningful friendships, connections with others,

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and intimate, loving relationships. It'd be hard-pressed to find someone who doesn't value

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that. And if they don't, it's probably because they've been quite traumatized and it's impacted

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on their personality development. We've been talking a lot about the end of the world.

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How does human attachment contribute to resilience in times of crisis and adversity?

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Well, it has so much to do with it, because if one doesn't have a sense of the connection and a

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loving, empathic, you know, unity, so to speak, with another human being or the family unit,

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then they don't have the internal resources to fall back on to help them, you know, self-soothe,

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calm themselves, regulate their affects or internal anxiety states.

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And it impacts on their ability to feel at home in their own body. Yeah.

401
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And we touched on this briefly before. In a digital age where relationships often happen

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online, has technology influenced human attachment?

403
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Yes, you would have to conclude that it has. Whether it's been good or bad

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is, I suppose, open to interpretation, but there are many good things about technologies. I mean,

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we can't deny that. I mean, look how we've advanced in terms of our ability as civilizations,

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information exchange, advances in medicine, etc., all through technological revolutions.

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But it's also led to a number of pathologies. If people are much more concerned about,

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you know, gaming, online porn, they can't talk with one another face-to-face,

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everything's through a text message. These are very stunted, you know, forms of development.

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I mean, it's shocking to see how immature youth are today, how unready they are for the world.

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Where, you know, whereas people of our era and age is, we didn't grow up with the internet.

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We didn't have a cell phone when we were in junior high. I didn't even get a cell phone

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until five years ago, and I don't even use it. It's there if I need to call somebody.

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I ran a business without having one of these damn things. So, I don't want to have it,

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but I can see the world, you know, I have to grow up. My wife reminds me I can't live in the

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Stone Age here. So, yeah, it's concerning whether or not it's leading to its own social pandemic

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among youth, but there is nothing more irritating than when you're out

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with people and they're more worried about their phone than talking to you over dinner.

419
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Absolutely agree. And that's what spouses are for, to keep us in line, right?

420
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Yeah.

421
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Well, and to your point about, you know, the social interaction of the younger generation,

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when the pandemic hit, my wife and I had one child in high school, one child in middle school,

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one child in elementary school. And so, I remember sitting at the dining room table next to my son,

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he's on his iPad, I'm on my laptop, and he's doing his math lesson and I'm having a meeting,

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and he was seven years old at the time.

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Wow.

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And I'm curious to see, and it's going to be a Harvard Business School case study

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10 or 20 years from now, but to your point, how that generation, that sort of three

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people from a developmental perspective, both personally, mentally, all of that,

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I had a big focus on mental health going into COVID, because I could kind of see the world

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starting to crack. And now we're seeing that tsunami, I'm calling it, of mental health

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crises. And the one positive thing of COVID was it actually put a spotlight on mental health.

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And by that, I mean, it made it more, it's okay to not be okay. It made it much more open to talk

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about and have a dialogue and not just sort of bury it and swallow it. And to your point,

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it goes to your therapist and take a pill for it. So, just my two cents, I completely agree

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with your viewpoint in terms of how this younger generation, the Gen X, I guess they are,

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what they're going to look like, or Gen Z, maybe, going forward.

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You touched earlier on spiritual beliefs. How do spiritual beliefs or practices interact with our

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need for attachment? Well, I mean, I think that people, it depends what we mean by spiritual,

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but if we mean it in a traditional Judeo-Christian way, that God becomes an attachment figure,

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where we have a meaningful personal relationship with an ideal being.

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But it also can expand a notion of consciousness that we feel much more connected to a greater

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whole or the greater processes of the universe, so to speak. And people are seeking that,

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I believe. It's hard to deny, even if one's completely not religious, if they're an atheist

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like myself, who, even though I don't believe in a supreme being, doesn't mean that I don't have

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a spiritual urge, a need, a religious instinct that's not been activated. And I think we

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ultimately are seeking numinous experiences. So, getting back to the attachment question,

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it just kind of broadens or expands our minds to think that we're part of a greater whole.

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And maybe as a follow-up to that, what strategies do you think are most effective

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for fostering resilience and a sense of well-being without relying on religious faith?

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Well, there are many, I mean, many different people who, you know, practice,

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you know, I don't practice really anything other than my own self-meditations.

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And of course, the Buddhist community is all about a belief system that's not theistic.

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And it cultivates a certain mindfulness about one's experience in the cosmos. I,

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you know, I see a lot of atheists or those who aren't religious have gravitated toward

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meditation practices. So, there must be something there that's helpful for people.

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And myself is just more about having a contemplative life and cultivating different

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ways of thinking. And the more, of course, I get older, I'm less rigid, and I'm more open to one,

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oh, I'm interested to hear what your experience is rather than judge it. So, in many ways,

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one has to be a pragmatist. If it works, if you get utility from it,

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and you are personally enriched by your beliefs and practices, then good for you.

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Is there anything that you admire about people who are deeply religious,

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even if you don't share their beliefs?

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Yes, I do. I, well, I have, you know, I have some dear friends. One's a ordained Carmelite

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monk, and one is an ordained Buddhist monk. So, now, just talking to them about,

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you know, their mystical experiences, you know, that's something. I also have a Sufi friend who

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talks about this. Now, I have not been able to enter into this realm, but I find it fascinating.

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And I like just to hear about it.

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A great dinner conversation.

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Yeah.

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Dr. John Mills, author of End of the World,

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thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate your time.

473
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,280
Well, thanks so much for having me, Chris.

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No, it was a great conversation, very insightful, so I really appreciate it.

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And thank you to our audience, which now includes people in over 50 countries,

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for joining us for another episode of Next Steps Forward. I'm Chris Meek. For more details

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on upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at facebook.com forward slash

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00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,640
ChrisMeekPublicFigure, and then X, formerly known as Twitter, at ChrisMeek underscore USA.

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We'll be back next Tuesday, same time, same place, with another leader from the world of business,

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health, literature, public policy, politics, sports, or entertainment.

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Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

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Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward. Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show

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00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:20,360
next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time and 1 p.m. Eastern time on the Voice America

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Empowerment Channel. This week, make things happen in your life.

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you