Civilization and Its Fate w/ Dr. Jon Mills

0:00 There are few things that make people successful. Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some time to get there. How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you? Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek. Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward. Now here is Chris Meek. Hello. You've tuned in to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward. I'm your host, Chris Meek. As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

0:40 Next Steps Forward is committed to helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing greater personal empowerment and wellbeing. Our guest today is Dr. John Mills. He has written and edited more than 30 books. His latest, End of the World, is a warning to businesses, elected officials, and the rest of us about the dangerous precipice we are careening toward. It's a call for the only things that may save us, reason, logic, common sense, scientific inquiry, empirical reality and truth, civility, and prudence. Everything should be like that, right, John? Dr. Mills is a philosopher, psychoanalyst, and clinical psychologist. A resident of Ontario, Canada, he's also an honorary professor at the University of Essex on the faculty at Adelphi University, and a supervising analyst at the New School for Existential Psychoanalysis.

1:23 Dr. John Mills, welcome to Next Steps Forward. Thank you, Dr. Meek, for having me on. Thanks for your time, John. I really appreciate you being here. So let's get right into it. The End of the World isn't a topic you'd expect for a podcast dedicated to personal empowerment and wellbeing, but it's one that's important to discuss, so again, let's dive right in. What inspired you to write End of the World? Well, it's a topic I was thinking about for the last 25 years or more, but you know, having lived through a doubling of the world population and then witnessing, you know, witnessing the deterioration of our environments, when the pandemic hit, I decided this was motivation to finish my little pet project.

2:12 So that gets the credit. Only takes a global pandemic to finish a book. Exactly. In your prologue to your book, you say, we all have the need to find enemies. Would you elaborate on that, please? Well, as a psychoanalyst, you know, I don't have a rosy outlook about human nature. I mean, we're not just born, you know, gentle, loving, fuzzy creatures, you know, these are developmental achievements. So, you know, we have to acknowledge the fact that we are governed in many ways, meaning human nature is governed by animality.

2:57 And so we can never really fully relinquish the fact that our minds are primitive. And so, you know, when we're beset by internal conflicts or external, you know, barriers to our existence, we naturally have a tendency to project our prejudices onto other people and particularly, you know, find defenses as a way of coping and scapegoats. So we displace, you know, our negativity onto others that we, in many ways, construct in a negative fashion.

3:37 So it's something that, you know, it's just part of who we are as human beings and we need to be aware of the motivations for doing that. And what are the existential threats that we're facing and why do you think civilization may become extinct sooner than we think? Well, I'm worried. I think anyone who observes what's going on geopolitically in the world cannot stick their head in the sand. So I mean, with our climate emergency, with the projected notion of overpopulation, up to 10 billion people in the next 20 years, the constant rhetoric of warfare, of nuclear engagement, of, you know, of all these geopolitical clashes that we're experiencing internationally with governments and warfare, as well as, you know, technology and the social disparities and economic disparities that are, you know, polarizing people in terms of those who have the money and those who don't, these can all become, you know, pressurize one another.

5:04 And so therefore, you know, I'm much more worried about the future than I would have normally have been, let's say, 30 years ago. We just finished a historic election here in the United States, one that nobody could have predicted. And leading up to that, and I still think to this day, here we are, you know, a week or so into the new administration, the United States population has never been more polarized, has never been more separate. And from my experience and my view, and it's my personal view, is that most of Americans, maybe most of the world, it's kind of like a bell curve, I call it, you've got 80% of the population here that they're gonna agree to disagree on most issues, but then you've got that five or 10% winged, you know, on the wings there, and they're the ones with the bullhorns, they're the ones with the bully pulpit.

5:54 What can this 80% do? Because we're the ones that are electing our officials as a society to become less divisive, less controversial, and more focused on, you know, my wife and I have three kids, two in college, one in middle school, they're gonna inherit this mess. So what can we do today as a society, whether it's the United States, whether it's global situation, understanding the geopolitical risks that are out there, you've got the figureheads and then the heads of state that are gonna do what they do, but we're the ones that elect them for the most part. How can we change our mindset to get, to become less polarizing and to look more towards the future as opposed to look at tomorrow? Well, that's a million dollar question. We'd be in Tahiti right now if we had the answer, right?

6:37 Yeah, you wonder about what are the forces that are driving such extreme polarizations. I agree with what you just said that there seems to be concentrated pockets on both sides of the political spectrum where you, you know, where you have more of a, you know, some kind of threat of authoritarian rule or value structure that's being imposed on the masses that are, like you said, more of the 80%. So you have the woke left, the extreme progressives, and who are engaged in identity politics that are, you know, flustering and aggravating the extreme rights side who doesn't want to fall into that way of binary thinking.

7:42 Anything that encourages binary thinking that you are, you're good and the other is bad, you know, you're oppressed, the other is an oppressor, that's going to fuel that conflict. Maybe the enemy, as you referred to earlier, is being constructed out of these, you know, these basic mechanisms of splitting. It's a sorry state of affairs, unfortunately. But seeking the mean, I mean, seeking something more moderate, seeking, like, let's have a discussion without vilifying, demonizing the other is where a certain degree of civility and rational prudence that comes into play.

8:31 Why can't we have a discussion about something where it doesn't devolve into some ad hominem name-calling or character assassination, it's just that we have different ideas. So let's discuss them without having to vilify one another. And that's such a novel idea because we used to be able to do that. Yeah. And now I'm afraid to go out with certain friends because if it comes up, it's not going to end well from a relationship perspective. And so I have just taken politics off the table of any conversation I have when I go out to dinner with friends and neighbors because I know what rabbit hole is going to lead down and my friendship and relationship with them is much more important to me than my political beliefs. And it's a sad state that we can't expose or express our political beliefs now because it's so divisive and a lightning rod.

9:20 Yes. I guess it depends on what kind of friends one has. Fair point. Yeah. They've got their own views and they're entitled to those. Not all friends are able to tolerate ambiguities and need to have sides that are clearly demarcated. And when this is the case, it's like, OK, well, let's agree to disagree and we won't ruin the evening. Maybe as a follow up to this conversation, as individuals, it feels like our ability to make an impact is pretty insignificant. And if that's right, what's the motivation for us to keep trying or even get out of bed in the morning? Well, I mean, if we look at life in such bleak terms, I mean, then you've really, you know, failed to really examine the beauty of living.

10:14 You know, like, we have personal relationships and ideals and values and life goals, and greater purpose and meaning to our lives that we have to, you know, become mindful of every day to stay attached to that, because if we don't, any one of us could slip into some kind of nihilism or depression and throw things up in the air. But in terms of, yeah, the greater scheme of things, meaning the bigger metaphysical, ecological, geopolitical questions, we might have very little significance on making an impact as an individual.

11:08 But in terms of our collective identifications, the more that there are people who are like minded in our, you know, embracing what we value, the more of a group, a consensus, or having certain social collectives, letting their values, their minds, their ideas be known. And that is what makes change. In the book, you write about collective bystander disorder. What is collective bystander disorder? And what are the factors that contribute to collective bystander disorder? Well, I started to think about why is it that we are ignoring the empirical data that is not just being told to us by, you know, climate scientists throughout the whole world.

11:59 I mean, hundreds of thousands of people who study this stuff for a living every day. But we also see it. We witness it. We experience it. Like, I was surprised that we had wildfires just an hour from our home here in Ontario about two summers ago. I mean, we see the world is burning. Now, one can claim it's not science, it's climate change or whatever, but whatever these denialists are about, we can't deny the fact there are certain phenomenon happening. So, it almost seems like that the majority of the world population feel so helpless that they're just watching a global crime happen right in front of their eyes.

12:52 And they're not doing much about it, if anything. In fact, we're seeing that this year is the hottest on record, that even, you know, even the billionaires in Davos are all in consensus that even though they don't want to admit the fact that we were probably beyond a tipping point at this point. So, the collective global bystander effect is really a collection of us who probably feel quite helpless, not knowledgeable enough, not empowered enough, if not apathetic, or just dissociating these realities that are happening right before our very eyes.

13:46 And it's often because these things aren't happening to us at the same time and in the same place throughout the globe. But it's enough for us to be concerned because if we don't start shifting our collective ethos toward adaptation to climate change emergency, we're going to be in the future suffering more than we are now. What is your own personal opinion? You mentioned the elite at Davos. You know, Larry Finks was the CEO of BlackRock, which is the largest asset management firm in the world.

14:28 It was about five years ago, he put it, I think it was right before the pandemic, he put his letter to shareholders about how important and how basically number one their focus was on for ESG. And he just came out a month or so ago, basically clawing it all back. And they went from using the phrase ESG to climate, and now they've just pulled the whole thing back. It's only been five years. Then you mentioned, you know, did they realize we were past the tipping point? Like, is it too late to do anything? Because everyone's talking about net zero by 2050 and things like that. And now nobody's going to talk about it. They're just going to ignore it and say, it's not my problem because I've got 20 years left and that's it. Well, I would imagine it has to do with, you know, personal and capitalist greed.

15:09 I mean, let's just be honest, you know, when people have money, they don't want to give it away. They don't want to have things imposed upon them. So they typically go along with, you know, either the current government that's in power. And now we have a Trump government in the States that's going to be very much pro-capitalism. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that there's proportional issues. And if we don't allocate the right proportional amount of resources into our world problems, and that means somebody is going to have to give up a little bit of the kitty.

15:55 Which would be a logical thing to do, if you have tons of money, what's the skin off your back if you're giving back to, you know, to good cause? So, unfortunately, that's again, goes back to human nature. When I have something, I don't want to give it up. It takes a certain, you know, it takes a certain cultivation of personality, and like yourself, being, you know, a philanthropist, you know, giving back to people, to humanity. And not everybody has that, you know, in their psyche.

16:39 My mother used to use the phrase, we can't change the world around us. I'm sorry, we can't change the world today, but we can change the world around us. And that's sort of become my ethos and my North Star. And I just try and share that with as many folks as possible. And you're right, you know, it's, I've got the money and it's, you know, won't be my problem. So we'll just move on. And to your point also, it's going to be, ultimately, I think at the end of the day, is they have to report to the shareholders. And if their performance is lacking because of their concentration in something else, whether it's ESG, whether it's climate, whether it's DEI, you're going to see that, and the shareholders will revolt. They'll be activists, and I'll, to your point, comes down to the bottom dollar. And that's unfortunate that that's where we are today. What are the consequences of collective bystander disorder in society, especially in times of global crises like climate change or humanitarian conflicts?

17:28 Yeah, I'm sorry, can you repeat it? What are the consequences of collective bystander disorder on society, and especially in times like now of global crisis with climate change and humanitarian conflicts? Okay, so, well, the consequences are, we're seeing them, that you're, by people not speaking out, taking a stand on their values, on electing officials into, whether it be, you know, their government, people in political power, to make decisions for them, people in political power, to make decisions for social collectives' values.

18:13 The consequences are going to be quite dire. I mean, again, I'm predicting in my book, if things aren't handled relatively soon, we're going to see the possibility of societal collapse in various pockets throughout the globe. And if that happens, entire infrastructures will collapse, economies will collapse, and the nature of globalization will be affected. In the meantime, you're going to have countries start cannibalizing one another because they want to secure the goods and securities for their own people.

19:02 So, whatever nation puts their own people first is going to then want to do whatever they can to claw back as much resources and money for them, and it's going to set off probably some kind of interaction effect. And then if you've got more people on the planet, I mean, billions more people, let's say, in our lifetime, you have two more billion people, you can have 10 billion people, you have all these individual needs, strivings, and anxieties, mental health issues, health issues in general, standard of living, everything could potentially implode.

19:45 You know, who can afford a house today now in North America for, let's say, the youth? And so, let alone what the world masses could bring about. If you have food or water scarcity, you're going to have less land which we need to live to produce food. You know, who knows what could happen? I mean, especially if you get some rogue actors that start playing around with nuclear weapons, it could be a really, you know, bad scenario. And let's not, you know, be an ostrich and stick our head in the sand.

20:30 Let's tackle this stuff. Not to mention, you know, AI that's out of control. Who knows what could happen with misinformation, with the manipulation of the masses, with technologies. It could set off further deterioration, like we see, you know, in mental health for children and youth who are just glued to their devices and haven't really formed an appropriate, you know, cognitive development that they could further age. They call them screenagers. I've just heard that. Yeah. And before I forget, where can people find your book?

21:12 Well, you can order it directly from the publisher, which is Roman and Littlefield. Or you can go to your Indigo bookstore, or you can get it off of Amazon, I suppose. It's everywhere. Perfect. You've written extensively on existential thought. How does the end of the world tie into that philosophy? And do you think our fear of the world's end is more existential, cultural, or driven by something else? Well, it could be a combination of many motives and factors. But, you know, when you think about the end, I mean, the existential tradition is really about actualizing your freedom.

21:58 It's about coming into being as a, you know, as a free agent who chooses how one wants to live one's life. And when you realize that you're not going to be here forever, and that we have an intimate relationship of our being toward death, that means that every single choice you make every day is that much more significant. And when people realize they've been wasting their life, they don't—they're doing things that are meaningless, that are rote, that are just what they've been told or conditioned to think they should be doing, they feel helpless, or that life is meaningless. That's a motivation that, you know, you could live your life differently. You could make—take different routes of how you want to, you know, to enjoy living while you still can. So, I think this is all intimately connected. It's connected from a personal psychological perspective, from a greater social or cultural one, as well as, you know, a greater, you know, need for spiritual connection.

23:22 Ultimately, when we get closer to, you know, especially as I'm getting old, you know, that stuff matters much more to me now than it did when I was a kid. So, and we will get to that. What message does end of the world have for government and business leaders? It means that anyone in a position of authority, whether it be politicians or the people we elect into our governments, they have a responsibility to the people they serve. And that means that they have to be honest with themselves and not just, you know, spew out nonsense that they think that the public wants to hear, simply because they're worried about the re-election campaigns. I mean, how many people are truly authentic in political offices?

24:21 Very few. And when they are, they can be polarizing like Donald Trump. But nevertheless, you see what you get. I think we need people to embrace, you know, these messages from the book, and in terms of business as well. I mean, why can't you be thinking about the greater, you know, ethos of the society that you live and contribute to? So, I'm hoping this could be something that people start to think seriously about. I went to Syracuse for my undergraduate and graduate school in the Maxwell School for Citizenship. And in the lobby, there's a statue of George Washington, and on the wall behind him, etched in the wall, is the Athenian oath, which basically says, leave the city state greater than you found it. What can we do to change that? Because it's not happening right now. A million-dollar question again.

25:23 Yeah. I guess it's very difficult for me to speculate on how a collective mind can get together and operate in a cooperative fashion. But we are a collection of individual minds that have our own ability to think critically, to introduce values and, you know, ethical responsibility to whether it be the planet, to our citizenry, to, you know, our neighbors. And there can be a lot more done on that individual level that could lead to a collective identification of people who want to say, this is what we want. This is what we need. This is what we're willing to give our money toward, or our taxes toward, or whatever it may be.

26:23 So, the more people let their ideas be known, the less self-censorship. Even around, like you said, you go out for dinner, and I have to self-censor what I want to say because I don't want to alienate my friend. But these are difficult conversations that I think are important to have. I mean, if you start off by saying, listen, you know, we don't have to agree about things, but let's have a discussion. And it's not personal in the sense that I'm going to attack you if you happen to have a different point of view, but let's have a dialogue. And who knows, that might lead to something that you just didn't expect or didn't know.

27:11 And so, I'm all about that. You have to have an open dialogue. Despite the title, End of the World is all gloom and doom, or is there a thread of optimism and resilience in there? If there is not a sense of optimism or resilience, one has to make it. I mean, because if I'm asking people, I want you to imagine the future where it's too late. And here we are, it's too late. If I can't imagine that we can't awaken from this state now, then that should be enough to be thinking, well, we don't want to get to that state where it's too late. Because that too late is just the opposite of resilience and opposition. It's having to accept our impending doom.

28:12 And we can change that. What advice would you give to someone who is overwhelmed by societal inaction? I have to admit that I don't give advice to people. It always backfires if I tried. You get what you pay for. Yeah. What I would say though, is that you're responsible to live your life on your own terms, the best you can, and to know yourself and to think critically about who you are, what you want, what you can achieve if you find a certain purpose or meaning to your existence. And there's a requirement for you to become more self-enlightened in that sense.

29:19 And we're all fumbling toward that. It's not something that you can just buy or purchase ready-made. There's no step-by-step manual that one can follow to get there. It really is a personal journey. And how can individuals build emotional and psychological resilience in the face of overwhelming global challenges like climate change? I think the more active one is, whether it be in one's thought, they're expressing their ideas, their concerns. Whatever impels them to act is better than being passive and resolute to something impending or happening to them. Cultivating an internal locus of control where you feel that you have something to contribute to your existence and others is where you have to search. Not to think that everything's going to be superimposed on you, and you need to cower in the corner like a child, but to fight back.

30:40 To fight back. I love that. It's human nature. Fight for what you believe in. Doctor, how do you personally stay hopeful or grounded when researching and writing about such disturbing topics? Well, everything that I do in terms of my research is really my attempt at therapy. So, I'm trying to work out these problems in my mind. I think other people identify with them. So, in many ways, I feel more connected to, I guess you could say, this abstract notion of humanity. But it's meaningful to me to try to offer some kind of insight. Even if it's just that, then it would be to do nothing. And so, I think that's kind of where I'm coming from. You don't know unless you try.

31:39 Yeah. So, let's talk about existential psychoanalysis for a moment. How is existential psychoanalysis different from other psychiatric approaches? Well, psychiatry basically today means go to a doctor, they'll do a checklist and tell you what disorder you have, and here's a pill to take. So, I'm in what we call the talking therapies. They don't want to be told what to do. They want to be able to have a sacred space, an intimate place to talk about what really is going on in their lives. What they're in trying to process and what they're experiencing on a very intimate psychic level.

32:35 And so, through a dialogue, through a meaningful conversation, they come to understand their own minds better and their own place in the world. So, an existential approach is to help a person in their own process of becoming. Becoming aware of who they are, their potential, what they're capable of becoming and finding meaning and increasing a sense of agency and freedom in their existence.

33:16 You've written and edited more than 30 books. I just finished my second one. It's still with a publisher. I don't know how you can possibly do 30 books. Coincidentally, there are two prolific writers named John Mills, same spelling, who live in Canada. The other one writes murder mysteries and thrillers. Have you two ever met? No, no. And the golfer, I haven't met either. Yeah. And if people want to reach out to you to speak to you or learn more, where can they find you? Well, they can go to my website or they can just Google my name and you'll find my website. Okay, perfect. Two of your books, in addition to End of the World, caught my eye for different reasons. The first is a very technical book titled Treating Attachment Pathology. It's the subject matter and your expertise in that area in particular that could be helpful to some people in our audience. Would you first share the foundations, motivations and importance of human attachment? And if so, how would you explain the importance of human attachment? Yes. Once again, my attempt to try to understand human development and the psyche brought me from classical psychoanalytic thinking, meaning Freudian thinking, to more contemporary work in attachment. And this was early in my career where I was, you know, practicing clinician. And I realized that this is where kind of really where it's at. Instead of just like these unconscious drives that are out there

34:54 acting in crazy ways, we really, you know, our psychological development is so contingent upon the quality of our attachment to, you know, our family, to our parents, our siblings, other very important caregivers early in life. And that's kind of the bedrock of what more of a mature personality is built on. So, the capacity for love, for intimacy, for emotional connection to others, it really can be profoundly conditioned by your early experiences in your family attachments.

35:38 And that's a great segue to the next question, or maybe as a follow-up is, why do humans have such a deep-seated need to connect with others? Well, that why question always leads us to, at least it leads me to say that things are overdetermined. There are many different causal forces, you know, of course, some of which are biologically based or based in evolutionary, you know, development. So, even when we look at the animal world, we see, you know, bonds of attachment between, you know, mothers, particularly, but not just mothers. You'll see fathers part of the family system that are protective. And so, even though I think it's an uncontested fact to say that our material embodiment has got evolutionary roots to it, what it means to be, you know, a human being or a person or a subject with one's own unique self-identity is really about the quality of your inner lived experiences. And so, what do most people want?

37:01 Well, they would like to have, you know, meaningful friendships, connections with others, and intimate, loving relationships. It'd be hard-pressed to find someone who doesn't value that. And if they don't, it's probably because they've been quite traumatized and it's impacted on their personality development. We've been talking a lot about the end of the world. How does human attachment contribute to resilience in times of crisis and adversity? Well, it has so much to do with it, because if one doesn't have a sense of the connection and a loving, empathic, you know, unity, so to speak, with another human being or the family unit, then they don't have the internal resources to fall back on to help them, you know, self-soothe, calm themselves, regulate their affects or internal anxiety states.

38:11 And it impacts on their ability to feel at home in their own body. Yeah. And we touched on this briefly before. In a digital age where relationships often happen online, has technology influenced human attachment? Yes, you would have to conclude that it has. Whether it's been good or bad is, I suppose, open to interpretation, but there are many good things about technologies. I mean, we can't deny that. I mean, look how we've advanced in terms of our ability as civilizations, information exchange, advances in medicine, etc., all through technological revolutions.

39:03 But it's also led to a number of pathologies. If people are much more concerned about, you know, gaming, online porn, they can't talk with one another face-to-face, everything's through a text message. These are very stunted, you know, forms of development. I mean, it's shocking to see how immature youth are today, how unready they are for the world. Where, you know, whereas people of our era and age is, we didn't grow up with the internet.

39:49 We didn't have a cell phone when we were in junior high. I didn't even get a cell phone until five years ago, and I don't even use it. It's there if I need to call somebody. I ran a business without having one of these damn things. So, I don't want to have it, but I can see the world, you know, I have to grow up. My wife reminds me I can't live in the Stone Age here. So, yeah, it's concerning whether or not it's leading to its own social pandemic among youth, but there is nothing more irritating than when you're out with people and they're more worried about their phone than talking to you over dinner.

40:41 Absolutely agree. And that's what spouses are for, to keep us in line, right? Yeah. Well, and to your point about, you know, the social interaction of the younger generation, when the pandemic hit, my wife and I had one child in high school, one child in middle school, one child in elementary school. And so, I remember sitting at the dining room table next to my son, he's on his iPad, I'm on my laptop, and he's doing his math lesson and I'm having a meeting, and he was seven years old at the time. Wow. And I'm curious to see, and it's going to be a Harvard Business School case study 10 or 20 years from now, but to your point, how that generation, that sort of three people from a developmental perspective, both personally, mentally, all of that, I had a big focus on mental health going into COVID, because I could kind of see the world starting to crack. And now we're seeing that tsunami, I'm calling it, of mental health crises. And the one positive thing of COVID was it actually put a spotlight on mental health.

41:43 And by that, I mean, it made it more, it's okay to not be okay. It made it much more open to talk about and have a dialogue and not just sort of bury it and swallow it. And to your point, it goes to your therapist and take a pill for it. So, just my two cents, I completely agree with your viewpoint in terms of how this younger generation, the Gen X, I guess they are, what they're going to look like, or Gen Z, maybe, going forward. You touched earlier on spiritual beliefs. How do spiritual beliefs or practices interact with our need for attachment? Well, I mean, I think that people, it depends what we mean by spiritual, but if we mean it in a traditional Judeo-Christian way, that God becomes an attachment figure, where we have a meaningful personal relationship with an ideal being.

42:47 But it also can expand a notion of consciousness that we feel much more connected to a greater whole or the greater processes of the universe, so to speak. And people are seeking that, I believe. It's hard to deny, even if one's completely not religious, if they're an atheist like myself, who, even though I don't believe in a supreme being, doesn't mean that I don't have a spiritual urge, a need, a religious instinct that's not been activated. And I think we ultimately are seeking numinous experiences. So, getting back to the attachment question, it just kind of broadens or expands our minds to think that we're part of a greater whole.

43:57 And maybe as a follow-up to that, what strategies do you think are most effective for fostering resilience and a sense of well-being without relying on religious faith? Well, there are many, I mean, many different people who, you know, practice, you know, I don't practice really anything other than my own self-meditations. And of course, the Buddhist community is all about a belief system that's not theistic. And it cultivates a certain mindfulness about one's experience in the cosmos. I, you know, I see a lot of atheists or those who aren't religious have gravitated toward meditation practices. So, there must be something there that's helpful for people.

44:57 And myself is just more about having a contemplative life and cultivating different ways of thinking. And the more, of course, I get older, I'm less rigid, and I'm more open to one, oh, I'm interested to hear what your experience is rather than judge it. So, in many ways, one has to be a pragmatist. If it works, if you get utility from it, and you are personally enriched by your beliefs and practices, then good for you.

45:37 Is there anything that you admire about people who are deeply religious, even if you don't share their beliefs? Yes, I do. I, well, I have, you know, I have some dear friends. One's a ordained Carmelite monk, and one is an ordained Buddhist monk. So, now, just talking to them about, you know, their mystical experiences, you know, that's something. I also have a Sufi friend who talks about this. Now, I have not been able to enter into this realm, but I find it fascinating. And I like just to hear about it.

46:19 A great dinner conversation. Yeah. Dr. John Mills, author of End of the World, thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate your time. Well, thanks so much for having me, Chris. No, it was a great conversation, very insightful, so I really appreciate it. And thank you to our audience, which now includes people in over 50 countries, for joining us for another episode of Next Steps Forward. I'm Chris Meek. For more details on upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at facebook.com forward slash ChrisMeekPublicFigure, and then X, formerly known as Twitter, at ChrisMeek underscore USA. We'll be back next Tuesday, same time, same place, with another leader from the world of business, health, literature, public policy, politics, sports, or entertainment.

47:00 Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward. Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward. Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time and 1 p.m. Eastern time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel. This week, make things happen in your life.

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