Do Better & Be Better w/ Kelly McDonald

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello.

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You've tuned to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.

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As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

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Next Steps Forward is committing helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing

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greater personal empowerment and wellbeing.

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Our guest today is Kelly MacDonald, who is considered one of the nation's top experts

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on diversity, equity, and inclusion, leadership, marketing, and sales to people not like you,

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consumer trends, and leveraging the customer experience.

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She's a four-time bestselling author and renowned speaker.

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She's also the founder of McDonald Marketing, which has twice been named one of the top

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ad agencies in the US by Advertising Magazine and ranked as one of America's fastest growing

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independently owned companies by Inc. Magazine.

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She's been featured on CNBC, CNNMoney.com, SiriusXM Radio, and in Forbes Magazine, Business

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Week, and Fast Company.

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And her client experience includes such iconic brands as Toyota, State Farm, Nike, Harley

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Davidson, Miller Coors, Great Clips, Sherwin-Williams, and of course, NASA.

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Kelly MacDonald, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Thank you.

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Happy to be here.

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Now, I appreciate your time.

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We were just talking before the show.

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You were traveling.

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You got home late.

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So again, really appreciate your time on this.

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So thank you.

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Kelly, let's jump right into it.

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You're the author of four bestselling books, including How to Work with and Lead People

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Not Like You, How to Market to People Not Like You, and Crafting the Customer Experience

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for People Not Like You.

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People in our audience might have noticed a theme there, and that's a focus on the phrase

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people not like you.

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As a top expert on diversity, equity, inclusion, why don't those titles include the words diversity,

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equity, and inclusion?

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Because, great question.

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I think when I say what I call the D word, you know, diversity, that people tend to think

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very, very narrowly about that.

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They default to where diversity conversations started 20 years ago, which is, you know,

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what I call the big five, which is race, ethnicity, age or generational differences, gender, and

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LGBTQ or sexuality, et cetera.

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So those were the big five, and that's all that diversity meant, you know, 20 years ago,

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those big five.

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And my definition of diversity is any way that you can be different from me.

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And so, especially in business, you know, if you're an introvert and I'm an extrovert,

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if you are in a rural community and I live in a loft in Manhattan, if, you know, you

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are an engineer and I'm a graphic designer, our brains are going to be, you know, working

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very, very differently in the way that we have conceptual ideas and things like that.

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So everything can be different that has nothing to do with what I call the envelope.

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The envelope is like what we see, right?

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Like I can see your age, I can see your gender, I can see, you know, I can see your race,

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et cetera, or ethnicity.

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And I don't think that's what makes us us.

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I think that's a part of what makes us us, but I think what really makes us us and makes

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it sometimes hard to connect with people who are not like you are differences that have

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nothing to do with the envelope.

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So you mentioned the D word.

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Is it true that your presentations have actually avoided the D word, which is diversity, for

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22 years?

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Yes.

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I mean, I will sometimes just say the reason I don't talk about it using the D word, diversity,

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is that people think too narrowly.

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And what I want to do when I'm, especially when I'm talking to audiences on stage is

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I want them to think about all the ways that all the people that they work with, and especially

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maybe where the friction points are, and it's usually with somebody who is not like them,

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but in a way that is not part of those, that big five, you know, it might be like, wow,

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this person is just, you know, this person is really stubborn and I'm not stubborn.

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I'm flexible, you know, that kind of thing.

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And it's like, those are the friction points that end up happening to us at work and in

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our real lives.

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And I mean, maybe they have to do with the envelope.

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Maybe they don't, but I just wanted to, you know, broaden people.

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So I really don't use that word very much at all.

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What led you to use the phrase people not like you instead of traditional DEI terminology?

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Was there an aha moment or what happened?

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Yeah, actually it was.

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So I was speaking when I first started my speaking career about the importance of marketing

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to the emerging Hispanic market.

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Again, this is 22 years ago.

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And so this was all new, you know, and the census had just come out and now we could

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quantify how big the Hispanic market was.

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And you know, everybody wanted to, you know, reach this lucrative consumer group.

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So I was doing a lot of presentations on how to market to US Hispanics.

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And I did a very effective presentation for a client one time and she pulled me aside

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afterwards and she said, that was great.

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And we would like to have you back and have you do something again, but we don't just

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value the Hispanic consumer.

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We value the, you know, women consumers, black consumers, Asian consumers.

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Do you have something broader than that?

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And of course, when you're self-employed and someone wants to give you money, the answer

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to every question is yes.

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And so I said, well, yes, I, of course I have something like that.

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And I didn't, but I had a year to do it.

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And so I created this presentation that was like all about tapping into new markets that

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might be different from what your core market is or whatever.

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And I went to, you know, absolutely everything, you know, millennials and, you know, Gen Z

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and this and that.

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And then I was like, what do I call this sucker?

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You know, like, I can't say like how to market to Hispanics and blacks and women and millennials.

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And so I just came up with people not like you.

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And they loved it.

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They loved it.

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I mean, it's kind of catchy.

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I never intended it for it to be catchy.

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It was just trying to think of a way to like encapsulate it all.

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And that's how I came up with that.

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And then it kind of took off.

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That's amazing.

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It's your brand now.

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Yeah, it is.

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And there are some real, for lack of a gentler term, thought police out there when it comes

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to DEI.

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Have you faced any pushback for not using the preferred DEI terminology?

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And if so, how'd you respond?

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No, I have.

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That's an awesome question.

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And I have never received pushback for that because the audiences that I've spoken to

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and some of them are, in fact, diversity conferences, you know, they're conferences about DEI.

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And what they like about my material is I do think broadly.

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And I think people who are in that DEI space, whether they are HR executives, people in

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culture executives, other professionals like me who are experts in this area, is the true

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definition of diversity is somebody who's not like you, not just those, you know, five

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pillars that I ticked off.

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And so they embrace it fully.

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I have never gotten any blowback from somebody who goes, I can't believe you're not using

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diversity and equity and inclusion.

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I'm all about it.

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And that comes through in my presentations.

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And in fact, those audiences actually come up to me afterwards and they're like, I just

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I love the way you framed that up.

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That is so powerful and it's broader and it should be broader.

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I mean, it should be as broad as we can possibly be because it's people not like us, whatever

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that is.

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What do people normally think when they hear diversity, you know, diversity in the phrase

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diversity, equity, inclusion, obviously evoke different responses from different people.

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And what's it gonna take for people who are afraid of or hostile to DEI to see its value?

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And at the same time, what's it gonna take for people who embrace it to understand and

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accept those who don't?

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So if I was even answering this question a year ago, I would give you a different answer,

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right?

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So the climate, the business climate, especially in the political climate has changed.

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And sadly, I think the D word diversity, equity and inclusion has become a dirty word in politics.

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It's become weaponized and it's sad because it really shouldn't be.

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It is here.

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It is amongst us.

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I mean, we can't ignore it and it's not a bad thing.

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It's actually a really good thing.

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But so all the more reason that I'm actually just talking about people not like you, because

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I don't want to alienate a potential person in the audience who's got a mindset that DEI

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is woke or bad or something like that.

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The reality is every one of us is working with people not like us every single day.

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And that doesn't make an organization a bad organization or anything.

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And in fact, it's been proven, it's been proven, there's in fact never been a study

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that has disproved the value of a diverse team.

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And when I say a diverse team, I'm talking about diversity of perspective and experience,

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you know, not again, just color of skin, gender, age, et cetera.

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And so it's pretty hard to argue with the facts of the value of DEI.

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It's just that these days it's been, the phrase has been hijacked and often means something,

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you know, woke or, you know, super liberal.

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And it's really not, it's something that organizations of all sizes and all different types that

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are either left-leaning, right-leaning or straight down the center, everybody is trying

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to hire and grow their teams with different perspectives because they know the value

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of those different perspectives.

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You know, if we surround ourselves with people who are just like us, then there's never anybody

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new at the table to say, what about this?

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Or I have this perspective.

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And so there's value in it.

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I just, I think all the more reason to move away from DEI because people, because some

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people have a very, very narrow mindset of that, that is also not correct.

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And I don't mean to be dismissive or insulting to anyone who thinks that way.

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It's just, that's not what DEI really is.

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What DEI really is, is about different perspectives.

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And one of the things that creates our different perspectives is who we are.

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And then one of the things that is a key part of who we are is that envelope and all the

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experiences that go with it.

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I will never know what it's like to be a man.

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All I know is what it's like to be a woman, you know?

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And so I need the perspective of a man, let's say, to round out something that I might be

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seeing in my way with this lens that looks like this, but what if I could broaden that

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lens to that?

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It's just that simple.

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Well, and to your point at the beginning of your response, it's a shame that words like

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diversity, the D word in the political arena are getting weaponized.

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Yeah.

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You know, it's going to be a buzzword of the day for whatever, whoever's at the bully pulpit

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there.

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Yep.

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We are diversity generically and we're a nation built on immigrants.

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So we are diverse from, you know, 249 years ago.

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The get-go.

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Right.

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And so how it's become such a demonizing, weaponizing topic, word, phrase, whatever

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it is, it's just astonishing because we've got the Statue of Liberty in New York Harbor,

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bring us your tired, your poor, et cetera.

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And it's just like, this is what we were built on.

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And so we need to embrace it.

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And that's why I love this, not like us concept because, you know, is it softer?

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Sure.

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But maybe that's what we need right now because everything is so harsh and so hard and so

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in your face.

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And it's more true.

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I think.

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Sure.

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Absolutely.

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And I think if I were to just say how to market or, you know, how to work with people who

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are diverse, I don't think everybody has that lens of just any way you can be different

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from me.

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You know, I mean, a pessimist is different than an optimist.

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A morning person is different than a night owl.

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Someone I do a lot of speaking in the insurance industry.

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And so they love this, this example.

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I say, you know, someone who is risk averse is very different than someone who is a risk

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taker.

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Or someone who is in the accounting department is very different than someone who's in sales.

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I mean, that is language that everybody can get behind and they go, oh yeah, okay, I never

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thought about it that way.

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And then we're starting to have a productive conversation.

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And so all I want to do is, is have a productive conversation, Chris, about a really important

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topic.

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And if I've got to kind of move around and dodge around the D word to get there, I'll

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do it because my, my goal is the outcome, you know, and, and if the language that we

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use is a little more, if people are a little more accepting of that.

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And I also think it, it turns a little bit of a light bulb on for them.

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Like so many people will come up to me and they'll be like, I never thought of it that

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way.

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You know, I never thought about, you know, or even like North and South, you know, somebody

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who's from rural Georgia is very different than someone who lives in Chicago, you know,

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and, and there's just no refuting that.

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So it kind of like takes the sting out of all of it and everybody goes, oh, okay, yeah.

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People not like me.

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All right.

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Well, and I mean, the way you phrase it is, you know, someone in accounting is different

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than somebody in sales.

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It's to your point, much broader than just white, black, Hispanic, Asian, straight, not.

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And so this is a very important topic.

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So I, again, thrilled you're here today.

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And Chris, somebody who's been working for 30 years is very different than somebody who's

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been working for 90 days.

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I mean, like you, you can just, you can take this in any Avenue you want and people go,

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oh yeah.

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So that doesn't mean the person who's only been working for 90 days doesn't have any

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value to the team.

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You just have to understand that they're going to be wildly different than somebody who has

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30 years of experience in that.

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And maybe as a follow up to that, setting aside that we're all individuals in the whole

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quote, there's no one else like us line from a practical standpoint, is it fair to say

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there are more people not like us than like us?

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I think so.

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I mean, I don't have any metrics on that, but I mean, I think, you know, whatever I

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am, right.

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Like, so I'm an extrovert, right.

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And I'm a morning person and I'm a woman and I'm, you know, 63 years old and blah, blah,

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blah.

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Right.

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All these things I can sort of identify about myself and, you know, I'm a task person.

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I like to check things off my list.

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There's probably far more people who don't line up with those things that I just rattled

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off than do.

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And so, you know, yeah, the answer to your question is, yeah, there's far more people

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who are probably not like us than like us.

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And that's another reason to not just stay in the bubble of people like you.

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I mean, it's really easy to do that because it's so easy to get along with people that

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you just click with and you get them and they get you and you're like, yeah, we're both

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like get it done, people.

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Let's knock things off our list.

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And somebody else who's a procrastinator might drive us crazy, but maybe they're really good

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at something else and we need that.

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You know, I'm especially fascinated by your books on crafting the customer experience

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and marketing to people not like you.

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And we're going to dive into those topics later in our conversation, but we have to

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talk first about the elephant in the room, which you touched on earlier.

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And that's how the new president seems to have instantaneously and dramatically turned

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diversity, equity and inclusion upside down and inside out.

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You've recently released your fourth bestseller.

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It's time to talk about race at work.

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Does Donald Trump have it out for you or is there something bigger going on?

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Nobody's ever asked me that question in quite that way, but I would say he doesn't have

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it out for me personally, but he definitely has a platform and his platform is to squash

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DEI.

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I truly believe that ... I got to say this diplomatically.

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I truly believe that it is less about how he actually feels about it and more about

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throwing red meat to his base.

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Because I think his base thinks it's BS and it's just hogwash and it's discrimination

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in some form sometimes and we don't need this and all that kind of stuff.

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So I think he's very good at throwing red meat to his base.

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He really is.

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I mean, honestly, he's a brilliant marketer.

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And so whether it's immigration and making immigrants scary to people, which is why we

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need to get rid of them or something like that, I think he's very good at knowing what

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his base wants to hear and he gives it to them and that makes him a smart marketer.

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I don't agree with any of it, but it makes him a brilliant marketer.

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And I would bet that much of what he says around DEI is just, again, a campaign slogan

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and it's words that have been proven to be effective and if you're a politician, when

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you land on something that clicks with your voters, run with it.

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I get the business of the politics.

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So he's not doing me any favors right now and he's not doing a lot of companies and

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I think that's why they're backing down.

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I mean, sadly, I think that's why so many of these companies are reeling in their DEI

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efforts, but they're not really doing that.

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They're actually continuing with them.

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Maybe they're spending a little bit more money, but they're calling them other things.

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They're calling them culture and inclusion because nobody has a problem with culture

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and inclusion.

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Well, I've got a surprise for you.

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We've got President Trump calling in right now to have a debate with you.

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Okay.

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Bring it.

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I'm kidding.

314
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I'm kidding.

315
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I would actually find that really fascinating.

316
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I would not shy away from that.

317
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I would be like, okay, let me run a brush through my hair here.

318
00:18:10,860 --> 00:18:13,140
Our next show, we'll bring him in next time.

319
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Please do.

320
00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:18,740
Kelly, we're seeing a number of big companies, banks like Wells Fargo, retailers like Target,

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suspending or killing their DEI programs.

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What's your message to the corporate giants you've worked with, and if someone owns a

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small or medium-sized business, what should they do now?

324
00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:31,060
Well, the first thing is I don't think that any of the companies that I've read about,

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00:18:31,060 --> 00:18:36,260
including the ones that you've just listed, have actually killed their DEI programs.

326
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They have maybe reduced them, they've reigned in some of the budgets and maybe some of the

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titles and things like that, but they're still pushing forward on culture and inclusion.

328
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What I think is really sad is that leaders in the industry, like Target, who did a really

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big push for pride years ago, setting the standard up here for mega retailers to say,

330
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this is a holiday and this is something that our customers want and we need to celebrate

331
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this.

332
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I think it's really sad that they have caved to the political pressure that's out there.

333
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:28,100
At the end of the day, Chris, it's all about the almighty dollar, and yet they haven't

334
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killed these initiatives.

335
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They are reframing them and being quieter about them.

336
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I think it's number one to duck down under the fray.

337
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They're kind of in the foxhole, but they know the value of it.

338
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No business is ever going to put money into something that loses money and loses money

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and loses money.

340
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All these organizations that have had DEI efforts for the last 10 years, let's say,

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00:19:57,180 --> 00:20:02,700
or more, they didn't do that because they want to hold hands and sing, we are the world.

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They're doing it because it makes money and it makes good business sense.

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Even from a talent draw, they get more talented people who come to work for their organizations.

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Dialing it back, I think, is sad because they're caving to outside pressure, but they are not

345
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eliminating it.

346
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I do wish that many of them stood firm in the case of this pressure, but it does show

347
00:20:28,780 --> 00:20:35,380
you where their heart is and their heart is with their wallet, and that's business.

348
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I don't like it, but I understand it, and I think they're making a mistake.

349
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I think, here's what it is, if you value diversity and inclusion, and I really want to talk about

350
00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:54,260
the inclusion part.

351
00:20:54,260 --> 00:20:56,940
It's not just about adding different people.

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It's about making sure that you're garnering the perspectives that they bring and the experience.

353
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If you value that, and if you value that enough to put a stake in the ground before

354
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and say, we believe in this, then your values are not situational.

355
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Your values are your values, and they should not be situational.

356
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That's the part that breaks my heart, is that if Target valued this one day or Wells Fargo

357
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valued this, not just one day, but for years, then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, not

358
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anymore.

359
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What can I count on them to be about?

360
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What do they value that is unnegotiable and not situational?

361
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If I look at my values and I think about integrity, my integrity is not situational.

362
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I apply it at all times to the best of my ability, or compassion, or whatever it is.

363
00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:57,740
These are values and truth, things like that.

364
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Truth is not situational.

365
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Truth is truth.

366
00:22:02,260 --> 00:22:08,260
That's, I think, the hardest part for me to swallow about in all this, is I don't know

367
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what some of these companies then actually stand for.

368
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As a consumer, if I want to make a choice, I want to spend my money with the good guys.

369
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But if I thought you were a good guy, and right now, you're reeling back on your values,

370
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I don't know whether I agree with that or not.

371
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:28,700
I'm still bothered by the fact that you can just change your values.

372
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Maybe we can go a little bit more granular in terms of pulling back or reining in, for

373
00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:35,300
lack of a better word, these DEI programs.

374
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What does that exactly mean?

375
00:22:37,180 --> 00:22:39,260
Is it their employee resource groups?

376
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Is it their hiring process?

377
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:42,940
All of the above?

378
00:22:42,940 --> 00:22:47,460
It's typically not the hiring process because they understand the value of diverse perspectives.

379
00:22:47,460 --> 00:22:49,620
It's the really visible stuff.

380
00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:51,120
It's the ERG.

381
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,660
It's the DEI summit that they might have had.

382
00:22:54,660 --> 00:22:58,380
It's some of the sponsorships that they might have had.

383
00:22:59,180 --> 00:23:01,980
They just don't want to be as visible, Chris.

384
00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:04,060
A sponsorship is a really visible thing.

385
00:23:04,060 --> 00:23:07,820
Again, if you're Target or Wells Fargo or whatever, you're going, we're sponsoring this

386
00:23:07,820 --> 00:23:14,700
big event, then you make yourself a target for the people who don't want that.

387
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:22,380
Internally, what we're hearing is it's almost business as usual because they do understand

388
00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:26,380
and appreciate the value that diverse perspectives bring to a team and diverse experience.

389
00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:33,220
That's where it's at, but they're just being quieter about it on the really external things.

390
00:23:33,220 --> 00:23:37,420
Maybe as a follow-up to that, in this apparent new reality, how can organizations that still

391
00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:44,500
want to implement diversity initiatives do so without facing a backlash?

392
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:50,100
I think anybody could face a backlash about anything if you really want to.

393
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:51,100
Look at Chick-fil-A.

394
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:52,100
Look at Chick-fil-A.

395
00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:55,260
For years, they got a backlash because they weren't open on Sundays, but again, their

396
00:23:55,260 --> 00:23:58,180
values are not situational.

397
00:23:58,180 --> 00:24:04,620
They've had hundreds of consultants that have come in and said, do you realize how much

398
00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:08,020
more money you could make if you were open on Sunday?

399
00:24:08,020 --> 00:24:11,620
You're forfeiting that business to Wendy's and McDonald's and Taco Bell or whatever,

400
00:24:11,620 --> 00:24:15,340
and they're like, we don't care because that's what we believe.

401
00:24:15,340 --> 00:24:19,460
I respect that.

402
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:30,900
I think it's about being true to your core values and staying the course on that.

403
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:39,340
I think if you're a small business, then you can say things like, we appreciate and respect

404
00:24:39,340 --> 00:24:41,420
all customers.

405
00:24:41,420 --> 00:24:43,080
All means all.

406
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,620
You can say diversity without ever saying the D word.

407
00:24:45,620 --> 00:24:47,580
You can say all.

408
00:24:47,580 --> 00:24:49,980
That's what a lot of businesses and organizations do.

409
00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:53,780
They'll say, everyone is welcome.

410
00:24:53,780 --> 00:24:55,580
We appreciate all customers.

411
00:24:55,580 --> 00:25:02,420
They're using different language, but they're putting the welcome mat out for everyone.

412
00:25:02,420 --> 00:25:07,380
If you don't want blowback, then there's other ways to say things, and the rest of us will

413
00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:11,420
actually see that and hear that for what it is.

414
00:25:11,420 --> 00:25:14,780
One aspect of the diversity conversation is that people are afraid of saying the wrong

415
00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:18,140
thing at work or having what they say taken the wrong way.

416
00:25:18,140 --> 00:25:22,820
As a result, you said that what they do is just say nothing.

417
00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:24,900
What's wrong with saying nothing?

418
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:27,380
Saying nothing doesn't move the business forward.

419
00:25:27,380 --> 00:25:30,580
I think, first of all, it is difficult to have conversations when you don't know what

420
00:25:30,580 --> 00:25:35,300
to say and you're afraid of the HR police or whatever, or the consequences.

421
00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:39,180
In some organizations, the consequences are very real.

422
00:25:39,180 --> 00:25:41,300
The risk is real.

423
00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:45,940
The problem with not saying anything is you're not fully communicating.

424
00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:51,820
For example, if you and I disagree on something and we work together, we're working on a project,

425
00:25:51,820 --> 00:25:57,940
and we disagree, well, we ought to be able to talk about that because it's important

426
00:25:57,940 --> 00:25:58,940
to the project.

427
00:25:58,940 --> 00:26:04,860
If I'm afraid of talking to you about that and saying, tell me more about that, then

428
00:26:04,860 --> 00:26:08,580
we're just going to end up at an impasse, and we're not actually going to understand

429
00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:13,860
the full picture and the context of what has to be considered for something to be successful.

430
00:26:13,860 --> 00:26:22,340
I understand it, but I do think the problem with it is that it blocks progress in business,

431
00:26:22,340 --> 00:26:26,460
and it does not move the ball down the field, and it's a conversation ender.

432
00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:29,260
I feel like in business, we should never end the conversation.

433
00:26:29,260 --> 00:26:34,060
We should always be able to talk, especially if we don't agree.

434
00:26:34,060 --> 00:26:38,620
That's absolutely when I need to lean into it more and go, Chris, tell me how you see

435
00:26:38,620 --> 00:26:39,620
it.

436
00:26:39,620 --> 00:26:41,500
I'm not understanding your perspective.

437
00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:43,860
Share with me.

438
00:26:43,860 --> 00:26:48,340
There's nothing bad that can happen about that.

439
00:26:48,340 --> 00:26:52,900
Nobody ever died of a conversation about differences in views.

440
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:54,460
It's really important.

441
00:26:54,460 --> 00:26:55,820
That's what good CEOs do.

442
00:26:55,820 --> 00:27:01,140
Good CEOs actually do a lot more listening than talking, and they work with their people,

443
00:27:01,140 --> 00:27:04,580
whether it's their top team or the rank and file or all employees, whatever, and have

444
00:27:04,580 --> 00:27:08,900
town halls and stuff, and they do a lot of listening because they're like, tell me what

445
00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:10,500
I need to know.

446
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:12,020
Tell me what I need to hear.

447
00:27:12,020 --> 00:27:13,020
They solicit it.

448
00:27:13,020 --> 00:27:17,260
Well, it's the old phrase, God gave me two ears and one mouth, and so I'll keep my mouth

449
00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:18,260
shut and listen.

450
00:27:18,260 --> 00:27:22,940
Yeah, but one of the things I do is give people the script because they truly don't know what

451
00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:28,100
to say, and they're totally afraid of just trying to clunk their way through it.

452
00:27:28,100 --> 00:27:34,020
One of the things I talk about is eliminating the phrase agree to disagree from your vocabulary

453
00:27:34,020 --> 00:27:36,060
because I was taught that as a child.

454
00:27:36,060 --> 00:27:40,020
My parents said, you know, if you don't agree with someone, just say, let's agree to disagree,

455
00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:43,580
and it's a very polite phrase, and it'll never get you in trouble or anything like that,

456
00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:49,660
but again, it's not good for business because if I say to you, Chris, let's agree to disagree,

457
00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:56,500
and you say, sure, this conversation's over, and we both know it, and that's not where

458
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:57,860
we want to be.

459
00:27:57,860 --> 00:28:04,440
So what I teach people to say instead is just lean into it and say, Chris, I see it differently.

460
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,580
I see it differently is not combative.

461
00:28:07,580 --> 00:28:09,100
I'm not picking a fight with you.

462
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:11,980
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.

463
00:28:11,980 --> 00:28:14,740
I'm just, I'm not even trying to persuade you over my point of view.

464
00:28:14,740 --> 00:28:16,140
It's a simple declarative statement.

465
00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:22,020
I see it differently, and what'll happen is when you say that or someone else says that,

466
00:28:22,020 --> 00:28:28,540
and the other person goes, well, tell me how you see it, and then we're having a conversation

467
00:28:28,540 --> 00:28:33,340
that's actually going somewhere, and it's very beneficial because if you can tell me

468
00:28:33,340 --> 00:28:36,920
a little bit more about how you see it, I'm going to have a greater understanding of your

469
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,100
perspective and where you're coming from on this.

470
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:45,820
We might not still agree, but I'm going to know more, and that's all we're after in business

471
00:28:45,820 --> 00:28:53,460
is just making informed decisions and understanding other perspectives and balancing all of that

472
00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:57,900
into initiatives and decisions.

473
00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:00,180
And it's time to talk about race at work.

474
00:29:00,180 --> 00:29:02,940
You write about how to have hard conversations.

475
00:29:02,940 --> 00:29:05,940
It's one thing to get instructions on how to have hard conversations and quite another

476
00:29:05,940 --> 00:29:08,060
to actually have them.

477
00:29:08,060 --> 00:29:10,620
Bridge that gap to give people the courage to speak up.

478
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:11,620
Is it something we should do one-on-one?

479
00:29:11,620 --> 00:29:12,620
What are your thoughts?

480
00:29:12,620 --> 00:29:17,380
I think it depends on the organization and the situation you find yourself in.

481
00:29:17,380 --> 00:29:22,940
If it's one-on-one and you and I are having these hard conversations, and let's just say

482
00:29:22,940 --> 00:29:27,580
again it's about perspective, like I really don't get you, I really don't get you, you

483
00:29:27,580 --> 00:29:33,860
don't get me, there's some tension there or whatever, I might just peel back the layers

484
00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:38,140
of the onion and just start with something like, look, just tell me about yourself.

485
00:29:38,140 --> 00:29:39,140
Tell me about yourself.

486
00:29:39,140 --> 00:29:41,300
What do I need to know about you that's important?

487
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:44,820
What I like about that is people will tell you what they think is important.

488
00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:49,060
I mean, they might start with something like, well, I started out at this company when I

489
00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:52,260
was, you know, 25 and then I, you know, they might go into something like that, but they

490
00:29:52,260 --> 00:29:58,900
also might say something like, you know, I was born in a small town in Kentucky and then

491
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:02,660
I got to go to college in a big city and it rocked my world or, you know, you never know

492
00:30:02,660 --> 00:30:04,980
where it's going to go.

493
00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:08,660
But I think the more that we can actually find out about each other and maybe some of

494
00:30:08,660 --> 00:30:13,300
the things that shaped us, but then when you're actually having those difficult conversations

495
00:30:13,300 --> 00:30:18,260
and you're trying to find the right language or whatever, I mean, again, using things like

496
00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:25,900
I see it differently, or if somebody's sharing a perspective that you really don't get, like

497
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:30,300
maybe you don't agree with it and you have this sort of trigger reaction of like, well,

498
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:32,380
that's not right or whatever.

499
00:30:32,380 --> 00:30:37,100
Try to recognize those emotions or whatever, and in that moment, lean into it and say,

500
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:39,740
tell me more about that.

501
00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:46,220
Because the tell me more about that is where you're going to find out how this person thinks

502
00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:50,820
and how they make decisions and how they came to the beliefs or the understanding or the

503
00:30:50,820 --> 00:30:53,060
perspective that they have.

504
00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:55,940
And the other thing I think that's really important to know is perspective is never

505
00:30:55,940 --> 00:30:57,300
wrong.

506
00:30:57,300 --> 00:30:58,540
It's your perspective.

507
00:30:58,540 --> 00:31:00,300
It's how you see things.

508
00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:04,880
So you can't tell me that if I'm an optimist and I look at, you know, things as like generally

509
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,160
in a cheerful way, and I'm not, you know, I'm not naive.

510
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,680
I mean, I do know that it's a dark world out there sometimes, but I tend to look on the

511
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,400
glass half full rather than half empty.

512
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,240
And you can't tell me I'm wrong for looking at it that way.

513
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:21,320
It's the way I am.

514
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,280
Any more than I could say to somebody, well, you know, you're wrong for always thinking

515
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:26,280
about doom and gloom.

516
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,380
It's how they see things, you know?

517
00:31:28,380 --> 00:31:32,480
And so I think that if we can say something like, you know, tell me more about that.

518
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,640
Tell me how you see this.

519
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,880
What bothers you about this or what concerns you?

520
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,500
Like concern is a great word because it's not a loaded word.

521
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:44,080
What concerns you about this?

522
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,760
And what you find a lot is that people are concerned about the outcome of something and

523
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,760
how it reflects on them.

524
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,960
And then that is actually something that we can dig into and go, okay, if you're concerned

525
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:00,120
about the outcome, how do we talk about making the outcome as good as it can possibly be?

526
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,280
Not just for you, but for the organization that we're working within.

527
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:04,800
Does that make sense?

528
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:05,800
Absolutely.

529
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,160
And I love how you're phrasing it to get them to engage with you further.

530
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,480
What concerns you?

531
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,440
Help me understand.

532
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:14,440
Keep that conversation going.

533
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,200
The dialogue is then presumably the longer the talk or the more you talk, you're going

534
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,920
to figure it out and come to some sort of agreement or understanding.

535
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:22,920
Yeah.

536
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:23,920
And I think, exactly.

537
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,600
And that's all, I mean, we don't have to agree.

538
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,460
We just need to understand.

539
00:32:29,460 --> 00:32:33,860
So once I understand why you think something, that might open up my mind to kind of go,

540
00:32:33,860 --> 00:32:35,700
okay, well, you know, Chris brought up a good point.

541
00:32:35,700 --> 00:32:37,580
He sees it this way.

542
00:32:37,580 --> 00:32:39,900
I never thought of that.

543
00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:41,460
There's some validity to that.

544
00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:44,820
I wonder if there's something that we could do that mixes what Chris thinks about it with

545
00:32:44,820 --> 00:32:46,780
what I think we should do.

546
00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:48,620
And you know, that's how you get to compromise.

547
00:32:48,620 --> 00:32:52,900
That's how you get to real collaboration, really.

548
00:32:52,900 --> 00:32:56,300
So yeah, I mean, I don't think these are terrible conversations.

549
00:32:56,300 --> 00:33:00,980
I just think that people don't have the right words and they're so afraid of saying the

550
00:33:00,980 --> 00:33:03,740
wrong thing that they just say nothing.

551
00:33:03,740 --> 00:33:05,820
That's a tragedy.

552
00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:07,980
Can you tell my wife I made a good point?

553
00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:08,980
Yes.

554
00:33:08,980 --> 00:33:09,980
Help her understand.

555
00:33:09,980 --> 00:33:10,980
Absolutely.

556
00:33:10,980 --> 00:33:11,980
Yeah.

557
00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:12,980
Chris rocks, just so you know.

558
00:33:12,980 --> 00:33:16,580
It's my new bumper sticker.

559
00:33:16,580 --> 00:33:19,500
While there's fear around saying or doing the wrong thing when interacting with people

560
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:23,380
not like us, there's also tremendous opportunity for growth and improvement.

561
00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:27,140
Again, maybe as a follow up, how do we get ourselves in that mindset of moving away from

562
00:33:27,140 --> 00:33:31,300
fear and toward the potential of something good?

563
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:40,880
I think it's recognizing, first of all, in sort of a scholarly way that different perspectives

564
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,260
are good for business.

565
00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:43,780
I mean, that's a truism.

566
00:33:43,780 --> 00:33:45,780
It's a truth.

567
00:33:45,780 --> 00:33:52,220
And the greatest, most innovative companies have always fostered that, whether they were

568
00:33:52,220 --> 00:33:53,700
conscious about it or not.

569
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:56,940
They've hired all different kinds of people who think differently, and that's how they

570
00:33:56,940 --> 00:34:00,020
come up with innovative products and services.

571
00:34:00,020 --> 00:34:02,060
They also do a lot of listening.

572
00:34:02,060 --> 00:34:07,220
And the thing I like about listening, and this comes down to consumer research, consumer

573
00:34:07,220 --> 00:34:12,620
research is nothing more than asking questions of people and then listening to their answers.

574
00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:15,740
And the thing that you don't do in consumer research is tell the people that are giving

575
00:34:15,740 --> 00:34:19,260
you intel that they're wrong.

576
00:34:19,260 --> 00:34:23,340
So if you're Tyson Chicken, and you're doing a focus group, and you're talking to people

577
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:27,580
who cook with chicken, and you're asking, how many times a week do you eat chicken?

578
00:34:27,580 --> 00:34:28,580
And then they go two times.

579
00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:31,100
And then you don't go, well, that's stupid of you.

580
00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:33,180
You should be eating chicken four times.

581
00:34:33,180 --> 00:34:37,900
I mean, you don't ever demonize your audience, and you listen to people.

582
00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:42,860
And this is a key part of marketing, is that we can't get those consumer insights unless

583
00:34:42,860 --> 00:34:45,260
we talk to people and listen.

584
00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:52,420
So if you listen, and you gather different perspectives, that's what leads to aha.

585
00:34:52,420 --> 00:34:56,460
So I'll give you an example, a business example that was, I live in Colorado, and the ski

586
00:34:56,460 --> 00:35:00,180
industry is like a billion dollar industry here, right?

587
00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:05,140
I mean, the entire state's economic engine depends on skiing.

588
00:35:05,140 --> 00:35:12,060
Well, years ago, the ski industry was seeing a decline in skiers for two reasons.

589
00:35:12,580 --> 00:35:17,140
Boomers were getting older and had hip replacements and knee replacements and stuff, and they're

590
00:35:17,140 --> 00:35:20,940
not skiing anymore because they're afraid of injury.

591
00:35:20,940 --> 00:35:25,060
Or maybe their doctor told them not to do that after a knee replacement or something.

592
00:35:25,060 --> 00:35:30,540
Younger skiers were not skiing because they're like, that's my parent's sport.

593
00:35:30,540 --> 00:35:32,580
I want to snowboard.

594
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:37,560
But snowboarding was not allowed on the ski slopes.

595
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,520
So they had to, the boarders had to go into the back country to snowboard.

596
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,040
So the slopes were getting skinnier and skinnier and skinnier with the number of skiers, obviously,

597
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,840
you know, financially hitting and hurting the industry.

598
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,040
Well, the only way they even found out about this was because they actually started talking

599
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:56,640
to young people.

600
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,360
There's not much you can do to persuade older people to risk another injury.

601
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,680
So they kind of went, okay, we have to replace these skiers with younger skiers.

602
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,760
And they started talking to them and going, how come you don't ski?

603
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,960
And they were going, well, because I board and I'm not allowed to do that on your ski

604
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:11,960
slopes.

605
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,440
And then they also found out that the price was a huge deterrent, the ski lift tickets,

606
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,480
the equipment, the this, the that.

607
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,360
And so they went to work on this.

608
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:26,240
That is an insight that they would never have if they hadn't just talked to, in focus groups,

609
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:29,260
lots and lots of younger skiers and asked, what do you want?

610
00:36:29,260 --> 00:36:34,360
And so they started working with equipment manufacturers for less expensive rentals and

611
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,080
doing passes that give you a big discount at the sporting goods store.

612
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,120
So your ski pass gets you, you know, 25% off discount and stuff.

613
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:50,240
The whole community of skiing worked together and completely revitalized the ski industry

614
00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:56,560
because they listened to what younger skiers had to say and they adapted.

615
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,160
That's insight you can't get anywhere else.

616
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,540
You can't get that information if you're not talking to people.

617
00:37:02,540 --> 00:37:05,300
And so I feel like the listening part is really important.

618
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:10,940
One thing I do want to also say, though, is if you're listening, I have had a number of

619
00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:18,580
friends and colleagues of mine who have, who represent, let's say, a diverse consumer group.

620
00:37:18,580 --> 00:37:19,580
Okay.

621
00:37:19,580 --> 00:37:24,180
So whether they're a black woman or let's say they're a gay man, my best guy friend

622
00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:26,700
is a very out gay man.

623
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:32,440
And he's very comfortable talking, you know, openly about his perspectives and stuff.

624
00:37:33,340 --> 00:37:38,360
But one of the things that he doesn't like and resents is when at his team, at his office,

625
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:44,160
they're talking about an initiative and someone will say, well, Cliff, as the gay man in the

626
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,920
room, how do you feel about this?

627
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,800
And what it does is, yes, he's a very out gay man.

628
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:50,960
He'll tell you that.

629
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,520
So it's not a secret.

630
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,980
But what that does by shining a spotlight on that person in that way is it's creating

631
00:37:57,980 --> 00:37:59,820
an otherness.

632
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:04,900
It's basically saying you're not like the rest of us.

633
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:08,980
And I have a friend who's a black woman, too, and she's like, I'm so tired of people in

634
00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:13,540
a meeting going, so as the black woman in the room, well, how do you think?

635
00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:18,700
So here's the better way, because I don't believe, Chris, that I can give anybody a

636
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:22,220
don't without giving them a do.

637
00:38:22,220 --> 00:38:25,100
So you can't just tell people don't do that, then they're gonna be like, well, what do

638
00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:26,100
I do?

639
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:32,620
So those are valid ways to probe, but not that way.

640
00:38:32,620 --> 00:38:37,660
So if you're actually trying to garner a broader point of view from different kinds of people,

641
00:38:37,660 --> 00:38:43,540
then what a leader can say in a meeting is, does anyone have any business or life experience

642
00:38:43,540 --> 00:38:47,380
to share with the group that would help us do a better job?

643
00:38:47,380 --> 00:38:55,340
Does anyone have any business or life experience that would help us do a better job?

644
00:38:55,580 --> 00:39:00,740
And that way, no one is having a spotlight shined on their perceived otherness.

645
00:39:00,740 --> 00:39:04,740
And at the same time, you're opening it up for everybody to chime in, which is, again,

646
00:39:04,740 --> 00:39:07,380
what we want is collaboration.

647
00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:08,380
I love how you spun that.

648
00:39:08,380 --> 00:39:12,100
I spun it out the right way, I apologize, but the way you rephrased and paraphrased

649
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:16,140
that, again, openness, collectiveness, all of that.

650
00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:19,700
So I'm learning a lot today, so I appreciate that.

651
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:24,040
Your book spells out something you call the starting method.

652
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,320
What is the starting method and why is that important?

653
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,320
I'm going to have to remember what starting stands for.

654
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,440
I don't have it in front of me.

655
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:38,200
The starting method is my method of how a leader who wants to do better and be better,

656
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:39,840
and that's another phrase, okay?

657
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:45,720
That's another phrase that I really like to use because it's not political, it's not woke,

658
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:46,720
it's not anything.

659
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:50,280
If you're just starting with, do you want to do better and be better as an organization,

660
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:51,520
the heads will not, right?

661
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:58,000
So one of the ways to do that is to garner the input of your teams and your employees

662
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,320
and their diverse perspectives.

663
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,400
That's where the magic is at, and it's free.

664
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,240
It doesn't cost anything to talk to people.

665
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:10,960
So the starting method is by understanding, you know, S-T-A-R-T-I-N-G, is starting with

666
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,560
literally the idea of this is a strategy, okay?

667
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,600
It's a business tool, right?

668
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,960
And then T is for talking, right?

669
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:27,600
Just start the conversation and, oh my gosh, A is for acknowledging, acknowledging the

670
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,760
people who have the different perspectives in the room and on the team and acknowledging

671
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,320
that maybe we haven't done as good of a job as we could have in the past of making sure

672
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,640
that we get to hear all voices.

673
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,320
R is for respect.

674
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,560
You don't have to agree with everybody.

675
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,680
You're never going to agree with everybody that you work with, but you do have to have

676
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,060
respect personally and professionally.

677
00:40:47,060 --> 00:40:51,900
So respect is at the core of any conversations that we have, including any questions that

678
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:56,820
we have or any, you know, trying to elicit input and things like that.

679
00:40:56,820 --> 00:40:57,980
It's not creating otherness.

680
00:40:57,980 --> 00:41:00,500
It's about respect.

681
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:05,500
And T is for training because people do need to be trained in this.

682
00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:10,380
I mean, this is a great conversation, and there's a little bit of training that's gone

683
00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:13,700
in here because I've given some do's and don'ts and some phrases.

684
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:19,500
But if you're truly trying to bring your team along to have better conversations, especially

685
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:22,460
about the things that they're afraid of talking about, or they just don't know how, they don't

686
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:25,700
know the right words and they want to know the right words, number one, they're hungry

687
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:26,700
for this.

688
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:28,340
But number two, teach them.

689
00:41:28,340 --> 00:41:33,020
Teach them to, you know, you can teach them to say, I see it differently.

690
00:41:33,020 --> 00:41:36,340
You can teach them to say, tell me more about that.

691
00:41:36,340 --> 00:41:39,860
Or how did you come up with that?

692
00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:40,860
And then ING.

693
00:41:40,860 --> 00:41:41,860
Wow.

694
00:41:41,860 --> 00:41:42,860
It's been a while.

695
00:41:42,860 --> 00:41:43,860
I'm sorry.

696
00:41:43,860 --> 00:41:50,020
Oh, I is for invest, you know, just continue to invest in this.

697
00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:52,340
It can be dollars, but it can just be time.

698
00:41:52,340 --> 00:41:55,140
In other words, you don't have a meeting where you go, we're going to do a better job of

699
00:41:55,140 --> 00:41:57,460
garnering everybody's perspective.

700
00:41:57,460 --> 00:42:00,620
And then you walk away from that meeting, go, all right, we did that, you know.

701
00:42:00,620 --> 00:42:03,500
And so it's about an ongoing conversation.

702
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:07,860
And N is for networking, making sure that you're always talking to different kinds of

703
00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:08,860
people.

704
00:42:08,860 --> 00:42:12,660
And I have worked really hard to broaden my group of friends and my business colleagues

705
00:42:12,660 --> 00:42:15,700
because number one, it's so interesting.

706
00:42:15,700 --> 00:42:20,140
And number two, I've been exposed to so many things that I would never have been exposed

707
00:42:20,140 --> 00:42:21,140
to.

708
00:42:21,140 --> 00:42:24,700
And number three, it just makes me a better business person because now I've got some

709
00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:29,740
insights to share with other people when I'm talking about, you know, I have a friend who

710
00:42:29,740 --> 00:42:33,900
went through this exact same thing two years ago and here's what they did or, you know,

711
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:34,900
whatever.

712
00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:38,300
And then G is keep going and setting goals.

713
00:42:38,740 --> 00:42:41,980
You know, I think if you're a leader, it is about making sure that you're putting a stake

714
00:42:41,980 --> 00:42:44,420
in the ground and saying, what are we trying to do here?

715
00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:48,900
Again, we're not just going to sit, you know, and hold hands and sing, we are the world.

716
00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:49,900
What are we trying to do?

717
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:53,760
Are we trying to get more active voices around the table?

718
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,540
Are we trying to actually penetrate a new market that we haven't really ever explored?

719
00:42:58,540 --> 00:43:03,900
Are we trying to recruit a broader swath of people with, you know, broader experience?

720
00:43:03,900 --> 00:43:05,900
You know, what are the goals?

721
00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:06,900
And keep going.

722
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:10,780
Thank you for remembering what starting is because I didn't have it in my notes.

723
00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:11,780
I couldn't have helped you there.

724
00:43:11,780 --> 00:43:12,780
Sorry.

725
00:43:12,780 --> 00:43:18,260
Kelly, you grew up in a very upscale, very white Milwaukee suburb.

726
00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:22,220
Do people ever ask you, what does this woman know about diversity, equity, inclusion?

727
00:43:22,220 --> 00:43:23,660
And if so, what do you tell them?

728
00:43:23,660 --> 00:43:24,660
For sure.

729
00:43:24,660 --> 00:43:28,960
I mean, obviously, again, I'm not what people think when they think that a diversity expert

730
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,680
is going to show up on stage looking like me, you know, and I get it.

731
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:41,880
So what I tell people is just because I'm white does not make me unqualified to be an

732
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:42,880
expert in this area.

733
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:47,640
I've studied it and I've been doing it for 22 years, long before DEI was ever a phrase

734
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:48,640
coined.

735
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,360
I mean, nobody was talking about this 22 years ago.

736
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:56,680
But also, you know, just because you are a gay man or just because you are a person of

737
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,360
color or just because you are disabled does not make you an expert on diversity either.

738
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,080
What it does is it makes you an expert on your own perspective and that's valid, but

739
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,320
it doesn't make you an expert on the business of diversity, you know, the discipline of

740
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:10,440
diversity.

741
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:17,960
So framing it as people not like you, I come back to my marketing training because long

742
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,800
before I was ever doing this, I was working for global ad agencies.

743
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,560
And one of the things that we do in global ad agencies is try to figure out where the

744
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,920
new customer is going to be found, right?

745
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,680
You've got your core customers.

746
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,920
You're not successful without them, but how much more successful could you be if you can

747
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,240
get the people that you're not getting, but you could be?

748
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:40,100
And usually that's rooted in research and usually the research reveals some consumer

749
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:44,000
insights that might be very specific to a certain group.

750
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:51,920
For example, women read more customer reviews and testimonials online than men, far more.

751
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:57,040
And they put a lot of stock in them and they put stock, they put real stock in what other

752
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,540
women say.

753
00:44:58,540 --> 00:45:04,500
So if I'm reading a review and it says that the review was written by Jennifer B. in Minneapolis,

754
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:07,500
I'm going to look at that and go, you know what?

755
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:11,700
She's telling me the truth because we think our sisters don't ever lie to us, right?

756
00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:14,720
And so there's insights absolutely everywhere.

757
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:20,180
And I come at it from the discipline of business, not from a personal experience of, you know,

758
00:45:20,180 --> 00:45:22,100
I don't know what it's like to be a man.

759
00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:23,660
I don't know what it's like to be disabled.

760
00:45:23,660 --> 00:45:25,460
I'm not a person of color.

761
00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:28,140
I'm not, you know, bisexual or gay.

762
00:45:28,740 --> 00:45:32,740
And so it's like, I don't know these things and I will never pretend to know those things.

763
00:45:32,740 --> 00:45:39,540
But what I do know is the business of diversity and how to make business better with diverse

764
00:45:39,540 --> 00:45:42,500
teams and why it's important.

765
00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:44,020
And that's what I bring to the table.

766
00:45:44,020 --> 00:45:48,180
And it's funny, if I can tell one quick story, do we have time?

767
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:49,180
One quick story.

768
00:45:49,180 --> 00:45:50,180
Absolutely.

769
00:45:50,180 --> 00:45:51,180
Please.

770
00:45:51,180 --> 00:45:55,780
So a couple of years ago, I was asked to speak to the Chicago Association of Realtors and

771
00:45:55,780 --> 00:45:58,180
it was their very first diversity conference.

772
00:45:58,180 --> 00:46:03,700
OK, so probably 200 people there, you know, really nice size conference, not too big,

773
00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:04,700
not too small.

774
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:05,700
Goldilocks.

775
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:10,780
And I'm the keynote speaker and I walk in and I would say two thirds of the room is

776
00:46:10,780 --> 00:46:13,220
black.

777
00:46:13,220 --> 00:46:18,220
Another quarter of the room is gay.

778
00:46:18,220 --> 00:46:25,180
And the remaining percentage, don't make me do this, geometry wise, is, you know, women

779
00:46:25,580 --> 00:46:29,220
or, you know, other people of other colors, et cetera, whatever.

780
00:46:29,220 --> 00:46:33,060
And I'm like the white woman, you know, who's going to get up there and talk about this.

781
00:46:33,060 --> 00:46:37,660
And so I thought, OK, I have to overcome the objection that they're too polite to say,

782
00:46:37,660 --> 00:46:40,500
but they're going to be thinking, which is when I take the stage.

783
00:46:40,500 --> 00:46:45,060
And so I started with, you know, I know I'm not what you expect when you think of someone

784
00:46:45,060 --> 00:46:47,780
who's going to come and talk to you about diversity.

785
00:46:47,780 --> 00:46:50,140
So I named the elephant in the room before they could.

786
00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:51,140
Right.

787
00:46:51,140 --> 00:46:54,460
And so I was like, I know I'm not what you expect when you think about this.

788
00:46:54,460 --> 00:47:00,660
And I said, but I am an expert in this and I've written four books on this and my works

789
00:47:00,660 --> 00:47:03,500
are widely published and featured.

790
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:11,580
And if you truly believe in diversity, equity and inclusion, then you have to include people

791
00:47:11,580 --> 00:47:13,340
like me.

792
00:47:13,340 --> 00:47:15,620
And all of them were like, you know.

793
00:47:15,620 --> 00:47:18,920
And so this woman came up to me afterwards and she said, you know, when your foot hit

794
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,260
the stage, I tuned out.

795
00:47:21,260 --> 00:47:22,260
She said, I tuned out.

796
00:47:22,260 --> 00:47:24,380
What is this white woman going to tell me about diversity?

797
00:47:24,380 --> 00:47:29,060
And she said, and then you started talking and I tuned back in and I came at it again

798
00:47:29,060 --> 00:47:34,460
from not some standpoint of I know these things personally or have experienced these things,

799
00:47:34,460 --> 00:47:41,180
but from this scholastic academic business side of it, which was a different perspective

800
00:47:41,180 --> 00:47:43,620
than what most people get at a diversity conference.

801
00:47:43,620 --> 00:47:46,020
And it went really, really, really well.

802
00:47:46,020 --> 00:47:50,180
And I thought, you know, this this is diversity is you're getting a different perspective.

803
00:47:50,180 --> 00:47:56,700
But you know, it's just I know I'm not what I expect, what people expect, but I'll be

804
00:47:56,700 --> 00:48:03,340
honest with you, Chris, to 95% of the audiences that I speak to are majority white.

805
00:48:03,340 --> 00:48:10,180
And I think one of the things that works for me in this space is that I look like they

806
00:48:10,180 --> 00:48:13,540
do and they're okay with that.

807
00:48:13,540 --> 00:48:16,860
Not that they would reject somebody else, but they can't reject what I'm saying if I

808
00:48:16,860 --> 00:48:18,420
look like them.

809
00:48:18,660 --> 00:48:22,540
If somebody is up there who's Asian or black or brown or disabled or gay or whatever, they're

810
00:48:22,540 --> 00:48:25,300
going to go, well, of course, you're going to say that you're the gay guy.

811
00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:29,940
Or of course, you're going to say that you're brown or you're Asian or whatever it is.

812
00:48:29,940 --> 00:48:30,940
Of course, you're going to say that.

813
00:48:30,940 --> 00:48:32,380
Or of course, you're going to say that you're disabled.

814
00:48:32,380 --> 00:48:36,260
But if I'm up there and I'm none of those things, I'm like, look, this is a business

815
00:48:36,260 --> 00:48:41,980
opportunity and there's data that shows that this is important and it works and you're

816
00:48:41,980 --> 00:48:44,060
probably already doing some of it or whatever.

817
00:48:44,060 --> 00:48:47,540
They can't dismiss me.

818
00:48:47,540 --> 00:48:55,220
So how'd you go from working for global ad agencies to being a DEI expert?

819
00:48:55,220 --> 00:48:56,900
I was really burned out.

820
00:48:56,900 --> 00:49:01,180
So there's a joke in the advertising industry that says it's a 20 year business.

821
00:49:01,180 --> 00:49:04,980
You get in in your 20s and you get out in your 40s because you're just fried.

822
00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:06,300
And I found that to be the case.

823
00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:08,980
I was really, really tired and fried.

824
00:49:08,980 --> 00:49:11,180
It's a hard driving industry.

825
00:49:11,180 --> 00:49:13,860
And also I was doing very, very well.

826
00:49:13,860 --> 00:49:18,140
I was in leadership positions, VP, SVP, etc.

827
00:49:18,140 --> 00:49:21,740
And I was getting further and further away from what I actually loved, which was advertising.

828
00:49:21,740 --> 00:49:25,580
The higher you go, it's just more about managing people instead of doing the real work.

829
00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:26,580
So I was really burned out.

830
00:49:26,580 --> 00:49:28,980
It wasn't fun for me anymore.

831
00:49:28,980 --> 00:49:32,140
And I thought, OK, but I'm a one trick pony.

832
00:49:32,140 --> 00:49:34,220
This is all I've ever done is advertising.

833
00:49:34,220 --> 00:49:37,780
So what's my new trick?

834
00:49:37,780 --> 00:49:43,460
And I started doing a lot of research and reading about how to find your purpose and

835
00:49:43,460 --> 00:49:44,620
all this kind of stuff.

836
00:49:44,620 --> 00:49:47,700
And I read one paragraph in one book.

837
00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:51,700
I read a bunch of things, but I read one paragraph in one book that got me here.

838
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:56,620
And it said, if you really want to find out what your natural gifts are, because most

839
00:49:56,620 --> 00:50:00,420
of us can be successful if we really lean into those natural gifts.

840
00:50:00,420 --> 00:50:04,740
Think about every time you've ever gotten an attaboy or an attagirl.

841
00:50:04,740 --> 00:50:06,260
And what were you doing?

842
00:50:06,260 --> 00:50:09,540
So I really gave that some deep thought.

843
00:50:09,540 --> 00:50:11,580
Like I didn't just think about that for two seconds ago.

844
00:50:11,580 --> 00:50:13,380
I mean, I had to really think.

845
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:19,860
And over the course of several days, I came up with, it's always when I've done a presentation

846
00:50:19,860 --> 00:50:24,860
and a client has come up to me afterwards and said, that was fantastic or wow, you know,

847
00:50:24,860 --> 00:50:31,980
you really opened my eyes to something or you took a very complex concept or issue and

848
00:50:31,980 --> 00:50:35,300
you made it really accessible for me, like you really explained it well.

849
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:42,340
So I thought, ultimately, I have a gift for taking complex information and in 50 minutes,

850
00:50:42,340 --> 00:50:45,820
condensing it to a meeting for the VP of marketing or whatever.

851
00:50:45,820 --> 00:50:48,740
And then I thought, there's only two things I can think of to do with this.

852
00:50:48,740 --> 00:50:52,980
One is to teach, because really what I am as a teacher, right?

853
00:50:52,980 --> 00:50:57,540
I could go, you know, work for a college, become an adjunct professor or something like

854
00:50:57,540 --> 00:51:00,020
that, or I could be a professional speaker.

855
00:51:00,020 --> 00:51:04,900
So I just decided to be a professional speaker.

856
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:10,580
And I started with how to market to US Hispanics, because that was the biggest topic in marketing

857
00:51:10,820 --> 00:51:11,820
and business.

858
00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:12,980
And that's what I knew.

859
00:51:12,980 --> 00:51:13,980
I was trained in that.

860
00:51:13,980 --> 00:51:18,460
The last ad agency I worked for was a multicultural agency that specialized in Hispanic marketing

861
00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:20,020
in Texas.

862
00:51:20,020 --> 00:51:21,020
So I knew that.

863
00:51:21,020 --> 00:51:26,380
And I knew that, I knew that, I knew, you know, the opportunity, I knew how to do that.

864
00:51:26,380 --> 00:51:28,020
I knew how to guide clients on this.

865
00:51:28,020 --> 00:51:29,100
That's what we had been doing.

866
00:51:29,100 --> 00:51:31,940
And there was a tremendous demand for that topic at that time.

867
00:51:31,940 --> 00:51:33,820
And so that's what launched my career.

868
00:51:33,820 --> 00:51:37,620
And then it was another client, like I said, in the beginning, who said, you know, we value

869
00:51:37,620 --> 00:51:38,940
all customer groups.

870
00:51:38,940 --> 00:51:39,940
Can you do something broader?

871
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:41,300
And then boom, off to the races.

872
00:51:41,300 --> 00:51:43,820
And here we are, 22 years later.

873
00:51:43,820 --> 00:51:48,140
As someone who was an adjunct professor, you chose the right path.

874
00:51:48,140 --> 00:51:51,060
I have some friends who are adjunct professors, and they absolutely love it.

875
00:51:51,060 --> 00:51:53,020
But they said, there is no money in it.

876
00:51:53,020 --> 00:51:55,300
You have to just do it because you want to.

877
00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:56,300
And you love it.

878
00:51:56,300 --> 00:51:57,300
And you love it.

879
00:51:57,300 --> 00:51:58,300
Exactly.

880
00:51:58,300 --> 00:51:59,300
And I may do that at some point in time.

881
00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:00,300
But I'm still learning.

882
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:01,300
Exactly.

883
00:52:01,300 --> 00:52:02,300
Kelly, we have just a few minutes left.

884
00:52:02,300 --> 00:52:05,220
I mentioned the titles of your books earlier on, but would you share all four of them with

885
00:52:05,220 --> 00:52:07,140
us again and where we can find them?

886
00:52:07,140 --> 00:52:08,140
Sure.

887
00:52:08,340 --> 00:52:12,060
So all four can be found on anywhere online where books are sold.

888
00:52:12,060 --> 00:52:15,140
Obviously, the big behemoths like Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

889
00:52:15,140 --> 00:52:19,100
But I value all of our independent booksellers as well.

890
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:23,660
And so, you know, here in Colorado, we have an independent bookseller.

891
00:52:23,660 --> 00:52:26,920
And, you know, there's Powell in Portland and things like that.

892
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:33,440
So the names of my books are How to Market to People Not Like You, Crafting the Customer

893
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:38,680
Experience for People Not Like You, How to Work with People Not Like You, How to Work

894
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,120
with and Lead People Not Like You.

895
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,720
Gee, it's this one that's like right behind me here.

896
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:48,640
And my latest one is It's Time to Talk About Race at Work, Every Leader's Guide to Making

897
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:52,020
Progress on Diversity, Equity and Inclusion.

898
00:52:52,020 --> 00:52:57,640
So if you just put into a Google search, you know, Kelly MacDonald books, they'll come

899
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,280
up wherever books are sold.

900
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,920
And if people want you to come speak, where can they find you?

901
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:10,520
They can email me at kelly, K-E-L-L-Y, at mcdonaldmarketing.com.

902
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,240
And I'm McDonald like the hamburgers, not like the farmer.

903
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:16,720
So I'm a Mc, not a Mac.

904
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:21,320
So mcdonaldmarketing.com, kelly at mcdonaldmarketing.com.

905
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:22,880
You can connect with me on LinkedIn.

906
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:28,200
I am kellycmcdonald on LinkedIn, C as in cat.

907
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,360
My middle name is Christine.

908
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,920
There's a million Kelly MacDonalds and I'll come up that way.

909
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:39,960
And yeah, or, you know, you can call me 214-929-7700.

910
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:40,960
That's my cell number.

911
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:41,960
Call me or text me.

912
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:42,960
I'm self-employed.

913
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,840
I love to talk to people about working for them.

914
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,200
Kelly, Christine, McDonald.

915
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:50,520
Thank you so much for being with us today.

916
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,480
I really appreciate your time and your insights.

917
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:53,480
Thank you, Chris.

918
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:54,480
It's been a great conversation.

919
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:55,480
I've enjoyed it.

920
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:56,480
No, it's been a lot of fun.

921
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:57,480
I learned a lot.

922
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:58,480
So thank you.

923
00:53:58,480 --> 00:53:59,480
I'm Chris Meek.

924
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:00,480
We're out of time.

925
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:01,480
We'll see you next week.

926
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:02,480
Same time, same place.

927
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:09,640
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

928
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,420
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.

929
00:54:12,420 --> 00:54:16,680
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m.

930
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:18,480
Pacific time and 1 p.m.

931
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,480
Eastern time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

932
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,440
This week, make things happen in your life.

933
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:29,480
I'll see you then.

934
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:30,480
Bye.