Honor First: Securing Our Nation’s Borders w/ Rodney Scott

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello.

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You've tuned to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.

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As always, it's a pleasure and honor to have you with us.

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Our focus is on personal empowerment, resilience, a commitment to wellbeing, and a motivation

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to achieve more than ever thought possible.

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This week's guest is outstanding in his field.

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Rodney Scott has been a distinguished senior fellow for border security at the Texas Public

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Policy Foundation since 2021, following his service as the 24th chief of the United States

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Border Patrol.

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During his three-decade career in the Border Patrol under both Republican and Democratic

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administrations, he earned the respect of administrators, agents, colleagues, and partners

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while working to successfully enforce our nation's laws and secure our borders.

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In a tribute to his leadership and integrity, Rodney has been described as, quote, the absolute

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embodiment of the U.S. Border Patrol's motto, honor first, end quote.

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In addition to serving as chief of our nation's 21,000 Border Patrol agents, Rodney Scott's

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past assignments included serving as chief patrol agent of the El Centro, California

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sector, assistant chief in the U.S. Customs and Border Protection's Office of Anti-Terrorism,

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and director of the Incident Management and Operations Coordination Division at Customs

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and Border Patrol headquarters in Washington, D.C.

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Rodney Scott, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Hey, thanks for having me on, Chris.

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Appreciate it.

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That's a lot of stuff you've done.

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It's amazing.

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What a terrific career.

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First of all, thank you for that.

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You know, there are so many big picture and policy questions, especially as it relates

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to cartels and human trafficking, that I'm really looking forward to discussing with

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you.

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But first, I want to start with your personal story.

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What motivated you to join the U.S. Border Patrol?

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That is, that could probably fill up the whole hour, but to kind of summarize it, there was

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a couple of things that just kind of converged on each other.

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One, I was just raised and always felt like I wanted to do a job that I gave back.

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So law enforcement, military, something where you're serving a bigger cause than just yourself.

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And then I love the outdoors.

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Through a weird chain of events, I was an Indiana farm kid.

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Through a weird chain of events, my family moved directly to the border in Arizona when

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I was in high school.

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To be honest, I wasn't a big fan at first.

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But once I discovered the Southwest, going off-road, four-wheeling, hiking, everything

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else, I kind of fell in love with it.

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And then, you know, as you grow up, you got to start looking at a career.

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And my career path, actually, I chose to be a pilot.

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So I went through school to become a commercial pilot with the goal of becoming a pilot for

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the United States Border Patrol.

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But back in those days, you had to be an agent on the ground for three years before you could

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apply to be a pilot.

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We didn't do street hires.

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So I got all my training, got my certificates, joined the Border Patrol.

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And then I never did become a pilot.

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It was really by choice.

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Three years went by pretty quickly.

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I really enjoyed the job more than I ever envisioned.

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And then I just never applied to be a Border Patrol agent or a pilot.

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I ended up staying in the agent course pretty much my whole career.

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I mentioned a bit of your biography in the introduction, but please fill in the blanks

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for us.

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Tell us about your career progress through the years and how your responsibilities changed.

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So like everybody, I started out a Border Patrol agent on the front line.

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Again, my background or what I knew about the Border Patrol was Arizona.

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But the Border Patrol hired me and sent me to the one place I asked to not go, which

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was Southern California.

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My experience, what I'd seen in Arizona, Border Patrol was primarily a narcotics interdiction

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agency.

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But I showed up in San Diego and realized, this was back in 1992, realized that we have

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an illegal immigration problem.

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Anyway, front line agent for several years, I ended up promoting in San Diego.

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And then after about six years, ultimately made it back to Arizona.

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But all that was front line time.

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Matter of fact, most of my career until I got into senior leadership was actually on

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the line.

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I spent several more years in Arizona.

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Coincidentally, by the time I transferred to Arizona, we had built a significant amount

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of barrier in San Diego.

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We'd hired a lot more Border Patrol agents and kind of were implementing this new strategy

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of deterrence.

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And Southern California was coming under control.

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So Arizona was actually seeing a significant influx.

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So I kind of followed that influx.

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Spent about five years in Arizona.

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Did ATVs out in the desert, built the Tucson's ATV program, doing a lot of things that most

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people that like the outdoors would actually want to pay to do.

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I was getting paid to do it.

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It was a great time.

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Right up until 9-11, to be quite honest.

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And then when 9-11 hit, like everybody in America, they went into this time of reflection.

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Well, U.S. Border Patrol did the same thing.

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We moved from Department of Justice to Department of Homeland Security with this new focus,

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this new mission of anti-terrorism, which no one had ever talked about before.

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No one ever.

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And the Border Patrol is all about illegal immigration and narcotics.

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I got pulled into that world.

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I actually, this would be a whole other show, but I mouthed off in a briefing about some

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things that were frustrating me.

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I was only a first-line supervisor at the time, but there was a bunch of headquarters

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people in the room.

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And next thing I knew, I was getting asked to go to Washington, D.C. and put my money

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where my mouth is and help fix some of those issues.

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So I ended up going up to D.C., spent about five years working on anti-terrorism issues,

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getting exposed, to be quite honest, though, to other threats that face this nation that

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is a frontline agent.

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They were right there in front of me, but I never saw it and none of my leadership ever

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talked about it.

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And it really kind of opened my eyes and made me wake up to how important border security

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is and what a fundamental part of national security it is.

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And then literally the rest of my career is kind of just weird.

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Like the last job I ever applied for, actually, you know, knowingly applied for was first-line

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supervisor.

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Every job after that, someone came, approached me, and asked me if I was willing to go help

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fix something or take a leadership position.

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I ended up moving through a few different roles.

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I was the deputy chief for the San Diego sector, which is basically the whole coast of California

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for a few years.

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Then I became the chief in El Centro, California, which is the inland portions of California.

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Again, the border all the way up to Oregon, but more inland.

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And then the administration's changed, border wall, border technology became a big deal.

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The chief in San Diego retired and they asked me to go take over that position.

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And they say, if you get too close to the sun, you might get burnt.

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I got asked to brief President Trump on border patrol strategy, the border wall prototypes,

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what we learned from that and some other stuff.

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And then it just seemed like nothing was really the same after that.

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I was constantly being asked just questions and being pulled up to DC for details.

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And then ultimately ended up getting asked to be chief of the U.S. Border Patrol.

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I did that until August of 2021, when I retired.

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So it's got to be careful what you wish for type of thing, right?

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Yeah, exactly.

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I didn't wish for it, but yeah, be careful when you speak out.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Was that your punishment to send you up to DC?

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Sort of.

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I went, I wouldn't say I went willingly.

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I mean, totally transparent.

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I didn't want that job.

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If you think about it, military is a little bit the same way.

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You don't get into, you know, they don't have recruitment posters or videos of someone

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sitting behind a desk reviewing paperwork all day and sitting in meetings and saying

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yes, no, left, right.

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You know, you lose all the things that you really joined up for when you move into those

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senior positions.

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And I really still enjoyed my job.

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I liked going out in the field, talking to the agents and you lose a lot of that when

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you go to DC.

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But you do get the opportunity to implement things and fix things that have bugged you

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over your whole career.

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So that part of it, I did like, I liked that my voice was heard, that people listened.

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The Trump, not to get political, but the Trump administration was a very unique time, I think,

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where the entire administration was very open and actually mandated engagement and debate.

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And they wanted to know, you know, what works, what doesn't work.

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And they were willing to try things.

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It was a fun time to be in leadership and so I'm glad for that, but it wasn't something

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I sought out.

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So I mentioned at the beginning of the show, when you were the chief of the Border Patrol,

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there were 21,000 agents.

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If you remember, how many were there when you started?

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And then what happened post 9-11 when you switched to Homeland Security?

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Sure, when I joined the Border Patrol, it was one of the first surges and they just

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went over 4,000 agents.

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So over my career, we grew dramatically.

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There was incremental growth before 9-11, but after 9-11, because of the realization

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of the threats coming at us, the Border Patrol doubled in size.

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And then it doubled in size again, if you will.

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The challenge with that is there wasn't any rhyme or reason, there's not a math problem

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out there that says, hey, this is how many Border Patrol agents we need.

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It was literally Congress just kind of doubling the size.

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And that brings a lot of challenges with developing personnel and promoting people.

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You've got to have leaders, whether they're ready or not, when you grow that fast.

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And then you expand everything else.

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People think about the agents, but they all need vehicles, they all need uniforms, they

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need facilities to go change out in, they need places to take illegal aliens, and all

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of that, what I would just call business.

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Some people call it bureaucratic, but really it's like running a giant business.

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Those were all things that they doubled and tripled as well.

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Thank you for asking that, because it's a little bit nuanced, but I want to make sure

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people understand the challenge.

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So the Border Patrol is facing very, very heavily armed, we call them transnational

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criminal organizations, the public commonly refers to them as cartels or drug syndicates.

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But that is a realization, and those same individuals are trafficking human beings and

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it's all about the money.

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At the same time, and sometimes within seconds, those Border Patrol agents will encounter

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a group of illegal aliens that don't really understand how they're being used by the cartel

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for much bigger, more strategic purposes.

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They just think they're trying to come to the United States and get a job.

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They're going to be, most of the time, compliant and not really understand their surroundings.

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And Border Patrol agents have to flip that switch back and forth constantly throughout

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the entire shift within microseconds, because you can't approach a group just like it's

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economic migrants, and then next thing you know, you're basically in a gun battle with

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Mexican cartels.

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So I think that's the most challenging part, is you have no idea what you're engaging with

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in most cases until you're face to face with the individuals.

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And a lot of times that's two or three o'clock in the morning without the benefit of a lot

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of light.

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Well, and you mentioned, you know, sort of flipping that switch to different situations

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throughout your eight hour, 12 hour shift, wherever it may be.

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Our show Next Steps Forward is about resilience and well-being, and I can think of a few jobs

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that require more resilience and will be more taxing on someone's well-being than patrolling

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our borders.

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What strategies or practices did you use to manage the stress that comes with being with

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such high pressure position?

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So from a very, very personal standpoint, I was raised in a Christian home.

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I have a pretty strong faith in God, so prayer was a big part of mine.

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Luckily as well, for most of my career, I was single when I first got in, but most of

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my career I had a very, very supportive wife and family.

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And then I tied it back to the mission, though.

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I really, truly believed in the mission, and luckily so did everybody around me.

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So that gives you a whole other level of support.

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It's a lot easier to explain to people why you're missing a birthday or a special event

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when they believe that it's a bigger, better cause.

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And then on more of a tangible, physical level, find a way to just zone out and do something

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you enjoy.

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So I enjoy hiking.

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I enjoy running outside.

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That's usually the time I come up with new ideas, kind of clears my mind.

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So whether it be in a gym or whether it be outside working out, I always try to get that

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exercise time.

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And then for me specifically, outside was always way better than inside because it's

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just a different level of peace, but I would try to manage that.

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And that's not going to be the same for everybody, but I encourage everybody regardless of your

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career field, you got to find that time and you got to figure out how to have that support

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structure around you.

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It just makes it so much better.

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And thanks to our time zone differences, you had an extra hour before the show today to

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kind of catch up on life.

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So I'm glad that worked out for you.

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You mentioned your family, your faith, your spouse, including them.

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Who or what did you rely on for support during the toughest moments of your career?

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And how important was it to have that strong support system?

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It was super important, especially as you move up.

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People joke around, it's lonely at the top, but it really is.

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And I can't even get into that.

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It's hard to explain to somebody if you haven't been there, but the information that you can

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share with people around you a lot of times is less and less because it's either sensitive

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or it's personnel issues or it's the chief of the border patrol.

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And I don't mean to make this sound cliche or anything, but you're constantly on display.

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And it's not that you're putting on a show, but you realize very quickly that your attitude,

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your demeanor is contagious.

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So if you're not upbeat, if you're, you know, anyway, it just affects everybody around you,

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it affects the whole group.

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So having my wife, but having that prayer time.

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And then honestly, it's kind of weird.

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I ended up having a couple of friends that had nothing to do with my world.

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Even age difference, significant age difference where they were talking about, you know, challenges

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in a master's program and asking me questions that got my mind completely and totally off

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of national security and whatever the incident of the day was.

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I think finding those, those relief valves is critically important.

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And then I found out it helped other people as well.

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So it's kind of a dominoes win-win.

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What kept you motivated, focused, and driven, and especially in the face of your toughest

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challenges, was there a particular philosophy or belief that guided you?

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So a couple of things, again, on more of like a spiritual level, I didn't want these jobs

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and, but I felt like I was called to do it and I was being asked to do it.

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So I just, I felt like there was a bigger purpose.

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When you really dive into border security and understand at the fundamental basic level,

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it's just making sure we know who and what enters our home on behalf of all Americans

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and how important that is.

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That in and of itself becomes a bigger mission.

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So I would get discouraged just like everybody else.

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And towards the end of my career, when things were changing and kind of getting a little

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chaotic and people weren't listening, it was even worse.

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But I would literally go look at what was called significant incident reports each day.

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So within the United States Border Patrol, every day, things that meet a certain threshold

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get reported up to a national level.

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And I would get a stack of those every day, whether they be individuals on the terrorist

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watch list or criminals or heroic events, basically every day I would look at those

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and remind myself that the mission of the United States Border Patrol really matters.

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And even if people in Kansas don't understand how much safer they are today because of what

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those agents are doing on the line, they are.

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And that kept me motivated.

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And it keeps me motivated today.

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It's a reason I keep speaking out and try to make sure that Americans really understand

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what's going on at the border and they get out of the media talking points and just the

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political angles.

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Well, maybe as a follow up to that, a little bit off script here, you and I were talking

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for the show that a lot of folks don't know or think about human trafficking, which we'll

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get into a little bit more.

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And you talked about how people coming over, they think they're coming for a job in the

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United States when there are more than likely not ulterior motives.

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When you turn the news on, pick whatever channel your outlet is, for some reason I always see

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Eagle Pass, Texas on there.

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So you mentioned the point, the family in Kansas who might not know what goes on, they

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might be saying, well, why is it so hard if the TV camera is seeing Eagle Pass, Texas

290
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every day?

291
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Why don't they just bring more Border Patrol agents and block it there?

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I know it's not that simple, but I'm just sort of trying to build a little bit on that.

293
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Yeah.

294
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So it's not that simple.

295
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So really what it comes down to, so I am going to make it simple just for a second, because

296
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I think border security can become so big and overwhelming, people just, they can't

297
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grasp it.

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So I need every one of the listeners out there to just think about your own personal home.

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Border security is exactly the same as your home.

300
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You get to establish the rules of who and what comes into your home.

301
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On a national level, you elected Congress to basically pass laws.

302
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But at the end of the day, you have a front door and you expect guests and visitors to

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00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:57,680
come to your home through that front door and you expect to be able to control who and

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what enters.

305
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,440
If anybody tries to sneak into your home outside the front door, that's going to elicit some

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type of a negative response from you in most cases.

307
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,920
On the national level, it's the same thing.

308
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But on the national level, we have 328 front doors.

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They're called official ports of entry.

310
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That's where everybody's supposed to come and go.

311
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Border Patrol's job is really just to make sure people come and go through those front

312
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,760
doors.

313
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,840
But just like your home, depending on where you live, you have to decide how much of your

314
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:29,680
resources you're going to assign to securing that home.

315
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,660
We have over 2,000 miles of southern border.

316
00:18:32,660 --> 00:18:36,240
We have coasts that, I won't even go into that right now.

317
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:40,140
And then we have this entire border with Canada, plus we have Puerto Rico, Hawaii.

318
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We could literally bankrupt the country if you just assigned personnel to stand along

319
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the entire border.

320
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So we make all these different investments.

321
00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:53,620
But at the end of the day, this is the key, everybody needs to understand.

322
00:18:53,620 --> 00:18:57,300
Every time you've ever opened your door when somebody knocked on it, you did a quick threat

323
00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:00,700
assessment and you decided whether you're letting that person in or not.

324
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:05,100
Every investment we make in border security, in walls and technology and everything else

325
00:19:05,220 --> 00:19:10,500
is giving that Border Patrol agent more time to do that threat assessment.

326
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:13,120
Because what you just said really, really matters.

327
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:18,800
We an agent, the only way agents have ever detected human trafficking, child trafficking

328
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:24,080
coming across the border between the ports of entry has been through good interviews.

329
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,540
Because most of the time, the victim doesn't really know they're being trafficked yet.

330
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They literally think that they're just coming into the United States to get a better job.

331
00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:36,740
And they've been coached to lie and say that these are their parents, that it's actually

332
00:19:36,740 --> 00:19:37,900
a family.

333
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:42,420
And unless agents have time to do that deep dive interview, we're never going to figure

334
00:19:42,420 --> 00:19:43,420
it out.

335
00:19:43,420 --> 00:19:44,420
That's the biggest threat.

336
00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:48,520
So this mass illegal immigration we're having today, it took away all that time.

337
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,260
So agents don't have any time to interview anybody.

338
00:19:51,260 --> 00:19:59,220
And again, we don't have enough resources to just surge to every single, like say the

339
00:19:59,220 --> 00:20:03,900
Eagle Pass and then to RGB, I'm sorry, Rio Grande Valley, then to San Diego.

340
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:06,320
The cartels have gotten too smart.

341
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,260
No one crosses the Southwest border without working with the cartels, even if they don't

342
00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:11,260
have to pay them.

343
00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:14,980
The cartels are scripting the entrance so that they can shape the border.

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What I mean by that is they can overwhelm law enforcement, create systematic gaps, and

345
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then they can get through that second wave.

346
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We had a strategy in place that included deterrence, that included infrastructure to be able to

347
00:20:28,780 --> 00:20:33,780
slow down the flow so that we could actually control that better.

348
00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:37,220
But at the end of the day, the only way we find out that those trafficking victims are

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actually being trafficked is through those interviews.

350
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So we really need to buy the agents more time.

351
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It's not just a detect and then return.

352
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There's just so much more to it than that.

353
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I really appreciate you using that analogy and taking us through Think About Your Home.

354
00:20:52,820 --> 00:20:56,820
Then also I think part two of that is I think most folks don't realize that you have to

355
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do the interview process and how much time that takes and what you're actually trying

356
00:20:59,860 --> 00:21:02,500
to get from that individual.

357
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:05,580
So I really appreciate you walking us through that because that gives a lot more clarity

358
00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:09,860
in terms of your day-to-day mission and what is actually happening out there that we obviously

359
00:21:09,860 --> 00:21:10,860
all take for granted.

360
00:21:10,860 --> 00:21:11,860
Yeah.

361
00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:15,160
And that interview is the most important part because the other thing people miss a lot

362
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,940
of times, and sometimes there's even government officials give information that's misleading.

363
00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:26,180
There's no worldwide global database of criminals or terrorists or child traffickers.

364
00:21:26,180 --> 00:21:29,940
We have information on people that have been in the U.S. before, but agents have to actually

365
00:21:29,940 --> 00:21:32,140
talk to these people.

366
00:21:32,140 --> 00:21:37,540
We'll fingerprint them and take photographs, but that's only bounced off of U.S. databases.

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00:21:37,540 --> 00:21:42,940
So really that interview is the most critical aspect to figure out what is going on and

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00:21:42,940 --> 00:21:47,780
does this person pose a threat to America or are they a victim of trafficking or are

369
00:21:47,780 --> 00:21:51,640
they smuggling narcotics or whatever else.

370
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:57,760
When you reflect on your career, how do you measure your success and impact you've had?

371
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So that changed dramatically.

372
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,380
So early on in my career, it was the old-fashioned statistics.

373
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How many arrests did I make?

374
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:10,280
Did I get a big drug seizure?

375
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,080
Just outputs, if you will.

376
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:18,240
But as my career went on, it was more about outcomes and then while it wasn't what I signed

377
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:25,160
up for, the function of your duties become less and less about securing the border.

378
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,560
That's the front agent's job.

379
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,520
It's your job to get them the resources that they need.

380
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,400
But it's to basically get them the resources they need, to get them strategies, to basically

381
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,640
kind of get them the freedom, the ability to do their job.

382
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,960
So I would say towards the end of my career, I measured my success on, yeah, the morality

383
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:50,280
ages and everything else, but on the number of people around me that actually got promoted.

384
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,880
So what became one of my big focuses over my career and kind of my leadership strategies,

385
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,560
that I wanted to create a leadership environment that really empowered everyone around me to

386
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,200
excel because then that made the whole organization excel.

387
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,080
And as I saw different people that I interacted with basically get highlighted by either other

388
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,640
organizations or even within our own organization and get promoted into leadership positions

389
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,640
and then go on to make a difference.

390
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:20,280
That's really how I measured my long-term success because that sustains the mission

391
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,320
of the agency versus just the arrests of a day, but I never discount the actual enforcement

392
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,200
either.

393
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:33,320
As a leader, how'd you handle the criticism, whether from public, media, Congress and administration

394
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,320
or within your own agency?

395
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,680
And were you able to turn that criticism into an opportunity for growth?

396
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,820
So with border security, just because it is so political and it has been for years,

397
00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:47,840
some people want to focus on just the immigration aspect of it.

398
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,240
I think I just learned early on to deal with the criticism and most of the time I realized

399
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:58,120
that it's not well-informed, but that was the angle that I took.

400
00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:04,160
So I spent a lot of my career in California and spent a lot of time with a lot of elected

401
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:10,040
officials that all they wanted to do was criticize, but over and over and over again,

402
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,960
when I actually met people and this sounds kind of cheesy, but a lot of times I would

403
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:19,520
very intentionally take the uniform off and meet people in a public setting, like a public

404
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,600
meeting of leaders or whatever in suit and tie, shake hands with them, say hi.

405
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,320
I don't look, I guess I've been told I don't exactly look like the stereotypical, you know,

406
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:33,880
big bad border patrol agent or whatever, but I would kind of get a crack in that armor

407
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,720
and then I would invite, once I told them what I did do, I'd invite them to come down

408
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,880
to the border and just do a one-hour tour with me and it was amazing.

409
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,720
Most people had made their, all their judgments without the facts.

410
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,720
They'd gone through a port of entry, they'd gone through like customs and border protection

411
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,480
at an airport maybe, but they really didn't understand what happens in the dirt in between

412
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,640
those major crossing points and when they did, they almost every single time walked

413
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:06,000
away and said, this is more complicated than I thought, you know, and it started opening

414
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:11,280
a dialogue, but really, you know, kind of breaking through that first layer is the hard

415
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:16,360
part because you're not going to get a chance to take most people to the border.

416
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:20,840
But anyway, that's just, I did try to find opportunities through the criticism, but a

417
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,480
lot of times you just got to look at it and go, yeah, they're wrong.

418
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,240
I can't convince the world they're wrong because they're not going to listen to me, but you

419
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,640
know the mission is right and it's important and you just press on.

420
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,000
So when people actually had the facts and it wasn't as easy as they thought it was,

421
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,000
they finally figured it out.

422
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,640
It was a bigger problem than they thought.

423
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,160
I would say like 80 to 90% of them, and again, I'll stay out of the politics, the current

424
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,560
political environment is a little bit unique.

425
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,720
As chief of the border patrol after the transition, I found quite a few people that didn't, they

426
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:59,360
just flat out refused to go to the border and refused to avail themselves to new knowledge.

427
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:05,120
But usually when people would avail themselves and actually go, 99.9% of the time they would

428
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,380
walk away and go, hey, wait a minute, this isn't what I thought it was.

429
00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:09,640
This is important.

430
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,960
We need to figure out how to do this better.

431
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,280
But you got to be open to the information.

432
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,360
What advice would you give to aspiring leaders who want to achieve greatness in their careers?

433
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,640
I'll tell you a lot of academics don't like what I'm going to say now because I didn't

434
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:26,600
have a career plan.

435
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,080
Just focus on the job you have today.

436
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:34,560
So I've watched so many of my peers that they had these, they aspired to some kind of a

437
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:40,120
leadership position and they kept focusing on what they wanted instead of what they had.

438
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:46,320
So I touched on a minute ago, I look back and basically part of it was a lot of it was

439
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:47,320
just my upbringing.

440
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,040
I was taught to just do your best today, whatever you were assigned.

441
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,680
And then after my first line supervisor job, other people approached me and asked me to

442
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,680
take on progressively harder, more challenging leadership positions.

443
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,080
I think that's a much better position to be in.

444
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,440
But the only reason they did that is because not only did I do what was assigned to me,

445
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:12,520
I actually sought out opportunities to make the environment around me better for myself

446
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:13,920
and others.

447
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:19,280
But really what it comes down to is putting your full effort and abilities into whatever

448
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,720
your task is today.

449
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,920
And I think that you'll shine and people will end up promoting you.

450
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,160
So I'm going to show my age a little bit here.

451
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,320
There's an old story about Nikita Khrushchev, former premier of Russia.

452
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,120
When Khrushchev was forced out as the leader of the Soviet Union, he sat down and wrote

453
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,280
two letters to his successor, Leonid Brezhnev.

454
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,040
He said, quote, when you get yourself in a situation you can't get out of, open the first

455
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,840
letter and you'll be safe.

456
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,280
When you get yourself in another situation you can't get out of, open the second letter.

457
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,160
Brezhnev soon found himself in a tough spot.

458
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,240
So he opened the first letter and read it, and it said, blame everything on me.

459
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,960
So that's what Brezhnev did, and it worked.

460
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,960
Eventually as all leaders or most leaders do, he got himself in a second difficult situation

461
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:01,960
he couldn't get out of.

462
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:07,960
So he opened the second letter and it said, sit down and write two letters.

463
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,240
What advice, if any, did you give your successor, a rebel he used as U.S. Border Patrol, and

464
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,960
did you leave two letters for him?

465
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,560
I am familiar with that story.

466
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,480
I did not leave two letters for him, but for a different reason.

467
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,320
He was my deputy.

468
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,480
When I was the chief of the Border Patrol, Raul was my deputy chief.

469
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,680
So we literally interacted every single day, staff meetings, and then offline.

470
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,320
We had a unified strategy.

471
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,960
We didn't agree on everything, but we would argue or debate things, you know, as a team

472
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,020
and move forward.

473
00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:46,740
So when I handed off, I was very confident, you know, that we, I already kind of shared

474
00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:51,860
with him everything I possibly could share with him, but it was also a unique time.

475
00:28:51,860 --> 00:28:55,660
The administration, like a regular corporation, you know, the administration had changed.

476
00:28:55,660 --> 00:28:59,900
Their focus had changed dramatically, like 180 degrees.

477
00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:04,780
I was being, I was basically pushed out, I won't even sugarcoat it, because I was pro

478
00:29:04,780 --> 00:29:07,100
border security.

479
00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:11,660
And I just, I guess if there was any advice I gave to him, it was, hey, eat lunch, spend

480
00:29:11,660 --> 00:29:15,420
time with them, you know, try to win them over, but it's going to be small, incremental

481
00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:16,420
wins.

482
00:29:16,420 --> 00:29:20,740
You're not going to be able to actually convince them that border security matters.

483
00:29:20,740 --> 00:29:22,300
But the Border Patrol is also a little bit different.

484
00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:27,780
I had created an executive board within the U.S. Border Patrol, because we have regional

485
00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:32,020
sector chiefs that have tremendous experience.

486
00:29:32,020 --> 00:29:36,660
So I kind of created an executive level board where we were engaging with all of them.

487
00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:41,980
And really, that's where I gave more, not a letter, per se, but more of the advice long

488
00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:42,980
term.

489
00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:47,340
And then many of them, I stay out of the politics, but many of them reach out to me still today,

490
00:29:47,340 --> 00:29:52,020
and I take that as a huge success, just asking me how to navigate, you know, how, recommendations

491
00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:54,700
how to navigate certain issues.

492
00:29:54,700 --> 00:30:00,660
Really what it comes down to is don't overreact, have baseline core values that you've decided

493
00:30:00,660 --> 00:30:04,820
well in advance that you are not going to cross that line.

494
00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:09,220
And if you're asked to cross the line, you know, it's time to retire or quit or whatever

495
00:30:09,220 --> 00:30:10,220
else.

496
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:13,620
But short of that, I think when you're up front and you tell people what you believe

497
00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:19,700
in, what your boundaries are, what your leadership strategy is, it takes away a lot of the, I

498
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:23,660
don't know, the questions and stuff, and it just kind of makes things easier.

499
00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:26,940
But someday you might be held to those, so.

500
00:30:26,940 --> 00:30:29,980
You've mentioned a few times, and it's one of my three rules on the show of we don't

501
00:30:29,980 --> 00:30:34,900
want to get into politics, but you just said something that's very intriguing to me.

502
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:39,820
You were pro-Border Patrol, you're pushed out because of that, you're a chief of the

503
00:30:39,820 --> 00:30:44,180
U.S. Border Patrol, but you're pushed out because you believe in Border Patrol.

504
00:30:44,180 --> 00:30:47,660
I don't know if we're going to give an answer for that or not, but that just, I think that

505
00:30:47,660 --> 00:30:52,420
might highlight everything that's wrong in terms of how we're addressing this as a nation,

506
00:30:52,420 --> 00:30:55,700
in terms of, like you said, D.C. makes it political, you know, certainly the last several

507
00:30:55,700 --> 00:30:58,060
election cycles.

508
00:30:58,060 --> 00:31:00,340
That's just mind boggling to me that you were pushed out because you believe in the

509
00:31:00,340 --> 00:31:05,740
job that you're doing and what the whole department is charged to do.

510
00:31:05,740 --> 00:31:09,180
And again, without getting too political, I think this is an important point, Chris.

511
00:31:09,180 --> 00:31:14,740
So I, years and years and years ago, I sat in a leadership class and wrote down, you

512
00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:19,860
know, basically forced to kind of core values, leadership strategy, all this other stuff,

513
00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:21,300
and it kind of refined over time.

514
00:31:21,300 --> 00:31:26,460
But the one thing that I wrote down immediately, and in law enforcement, it's critically important,

515
00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:28,340
is integrity.

516
00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:34,020
And literally, for the first time in my career, I was asked to publicly make statements that

517
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:38,100
were not true and got into quite the argument with that.

518
00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:39,740
And I just, that's what I meant.

519
00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:45,300
If you have core values and you state them and write them down, you got to live by them.

520
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,620
So I couldn't, I couldn't stay in that situation.

521
00:31:48,620 --> 00:31:52,220
So I ended up having to retire because I wasn't going to make those statements.

522
00:31:52,220 --> 00:31:53,780
And that's not a political statement.

523
00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:56,540
That is like what you just said.

524
00:31:56,540 --> 00:31:59,680
It's where we are today and it's scary.

525
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:00,680
Very scary.

526
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,660
And thank you for sticking to your beliefs and for lack of a better phrase, sticking

527
00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:04,660
to your guns.

528
00:32:04,660 --> 00:32:08,720
I'm sure it was an easy decision, but thank you for that, which is going to help us transition

529
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,300
to part two of your life.

530
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:15,860
You retired from the border patrol and you could have stayed retired.

531
00:32:15,860 --> 00:32:19,500
What is it about your new role in the Texas Public Policy Foundation that keeps you coming

532
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:20,500
into work?

533
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:23,860
It matters.

534
00:32:23,860 --> 00:32:26,380
I still believe in America.

535
00:32:26,380 --> 00:32:27,380
I understand.

536
00:32:27,380 --> 00:32:31,180
I've been exposed to the threats that are coming across that border every single day,

537
00:32:31,180 --> 00:32:34,500
the real significant threats to this country.

538
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:39,540
And then I've watched those threats be watered down on mainstream media and basically America

539
00:32:39,540 --> 00:32:42,180
told that it's just this economic migrants.

540
00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:43,180
There's really no threat.

541
00:32:43,180 --> 00:32:44,240
They ignore the cartel.

542
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,140
They ignore the human trafficking.

543
00:32:47,620 --> 00:32:50,900
And average Americans, they don't know.

544
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:55,060
And I don't know how they would know if somebody's not out there actually advocating and speaking

545
00:32:55,060 --> 00:32:56,060
the truth.

546
00:32:56,060 --> 00:32:57,380
So it's funny you said that.

547
00:32:57,380 --> 00:33:02,500
My wife and I had a debate back and forth and I would actually, again, a little transparent,

548
00:33:02,500 --> 00:33:04,980
God and I probably had a little bit of an argument in the debate.

549
00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:09,220
I'm like, hey, I chose a law enforcement job with a good retirement where I could retire

550
00:33:09,220 --> 00:33:10,780
a little bit younger for a reason.

551
00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:15,540
I'm ready to go hang out at the lake and go fish.

552
00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:16,820
But I was told I was exposed.

553
00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:20,500
I felt like I was being told I was exposed to all of this.

554
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:24,500
I had all these opportunities and I owed it to America to just share the truth because

555
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:29,660
no one else really was and no one else actually had the information I even had to be able

556
00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:31,060
to share.

557
00:33:31,060 --> 00:33:35,260
So when I retired, I'm sorry, this is going to be long winded.

558
00:33:35,260 --> 00:33:38,980
Two people from the last administration called and told me, hey, hit the pause button really

559
00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:39,980
quick.

560
00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:45,740
You need to talk to your wife because if you speak out publicly, you will lose a very,

561
00:33:45,740 --> 00:33:48,380
very significant amount of potential income.

562
00:33:48,380 --> 00:33:49,380
And I was like, what?

563
00:33:49,380 --> 00:33:50,380
Like, yeah.

564
00:33:50,380 --> 00:33:54,060
Have you ever noticed how hardly any prior military leaders or law enforcement leaders

565
00:33:54,060 --> 00:33:55,860
ever speak out?

566
00:33:55,860 --> 00:34:01,780
It's really because corporate America is trying to sell stuff to the government and they don't

567
00:34:01,780 --> 00:34:04,740
want political lightning rods at all.

568
00:34:04,740 --> 00:34:09,300
So if you speak out, you're going to lose this opportunity.

569
00:34:09,620 --> 00:34:11,260
And anyway, I won't get into all that.

570
00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:16,540
So they're like, if you want to continue to stay engaged, here's some here's some options.

571
00:34:16,540 --> 00:34:20,100
And one of them that was really intriguing to me was Texas Public Policy Foundation.

572
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:21,100
It's nonpartisan.

573
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:23,220
It just advocates.

574
00:34:23,220 --> 00:34:27,420
In my case, they brought me on as a border security expert and immigration to advocate

575
00:34:27,420 --> 00:34:32,900
for just what makes sense for America, putting Americans and American safety first.

576
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:37,460
And it gave me a way to continue to engage at a national level.

577
00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:42,500
I've testified before Congress on several occasions and again, just factual about what's

578
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:43,620
going on.

579
00:34:43,620 --> 00:34:50,060
The fact that for 27 years, we were improving a strategy that was making America safer every

580
00:34:50,060 --> 00:34:51,060
single day.

581
00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:52,060
It was bipartisan.

582
00:34:52,060 --> 00:34:54,980
I'm kind of sharing that information and what changed.

583
00:34:54,980 --> 00:34:57,980
The bottom line, it's because it matters.

584
00:34:57,980 --> 00:35:01,680
You do not have a country if you do not have secure borders.

585
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,420
And there's a ton of people out there today that are kind of misleading Americans.

586
00:35:06,420 --> 00:35:11,260
And I call it kind of like hijacking their compassion by showing, you know, some picture

587
00:35:11,260 --> 00:35:12,460
of a family or something.

588
00:35:12,460 --> 00:35:14,660
And they leave out the fact that, yeah, maybe that's a family.

589
00:35:14,660 --> 00:35:19,860
Maybe it's not, because there's this huge portion of, quote unquote, families crossing

590
00:35:19,860 --> 00:35:23,040
the border that are actually human trafficking.

591
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,460
But now with this mass illegal immigration and basically shut off DNA testing, we don't

592
00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:30,980
even have any way to detect them.

593
00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:36,820
The fact that most Americans say they don't understand that 61% of the cross-border illegal

594
00:35:36,820 --> 00:35:40,180
aliens or the cross-border illegal flow right now are single adults.

595
00:35:40,180 --> 00:35:47,180
It's like over 60,000 single adults from China that the Chinese government is actually coordinating

596
00:35:47,180 --> 00:35:50,500
and systematically infiltrating into the United States.

597
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,060
But these are things no one talks about.

598
00:35:53,060 --> 00:35:57,740
And I just couldn't hold that information and go fish, unfortunately.

599
00:35:57,740 --> 00:35:59,920
Well, I'm glad you're not fishing.

600
00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:00,920
We need you out there.

601
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:01,920
Yeah.

602
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,680
So I'm going to jump ahead a little bit here because you've touched on it a bit.

603
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,960
You know, we talked about the role of cartels and the issue of human trafficking.

604
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,800
I think when most people hear the word cartel, they think of drug trafficking.

605
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,840
Who is responsible for human trafficking and sex trafficking into the United States?

606
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,720
Is it coming from just the southern border or other borders?

607
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:25,680
No, the America, unfortunately, and this is the narcotics too, we're consumers.

608
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,200
So we're one of the biggest consumers of basically child trafficking anywhere in the

609
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,200
world.

610
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:32,200
It's horrible.

611
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,200
And that is a huge problem.

612
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,360
But because of that, criminal elements are going to try to get that into the United States,

613
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,080
whether it be through cyber and Internet porn or whether it's actually individuals coming

614
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,000
into the United States.

615
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:49,920
Most Americans don't know that the Super Bowl is one of the biggest targets for sex trafficking

616
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,920
in child trafficking in the world.

617
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,540
It's horrible because the amount of money and influence.

618
00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:55,540
So it's everywhere.

619
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,760
However, it comes back to what we talked about earlier.

620
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,680
It's the ability of law enforcement to have a conversation with people coming into the

621
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,080
country and then detect it.

622
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,200
So the southwest border is significant, is the most significant threat because the chaos

623
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,880
that's going on down there and everything that crosses the southwest border is controlled

624
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,080
by the cartels, which that's the reason we started calling them transnational criminal

625
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,520
organizations.

626
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,560
They're just in it to make money.

627
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,820
Sex has traditionally been the biggest moneymaker for them, and it really still is.

628
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:32,540
They use the illegal aliens to basically mask and provide cover so they can get in that

629
00:37:32,540 --> 00:37:33,540
second wave.

630
00:37:33,540 --> 00:37:39,220
But that second wave, that people that they pay extra to avoid law enforcement often include

631
00:37:39,220 --> 00:37:40,900
those being trafficked.

632
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:45,020
It often includes the terrorists, often includes the criminals.

633
00:37:45,020 --> 00:37:48,820
But if it's coming across the southwest border, the cartels are controlling it.

634
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,120
And unfortunately, the dynamic we have today, that really means, and I want people to understand

635
00:37:53,120 --> 00:38:00,760
this, that really means that by policy, we have made a conscious decision to allow the

636
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,200
Mexican drug cartels, transnational criminal organizations, to pick and choose who enters

637
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,960
our country instead of us.

638
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,440
With the current dynamic, all the immigration laws, all the custom laws, they're kind of

639
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:17,080
a joke because we literally don't have the, we don't have the willingness to stop them

640
00:38:17,180 --> 00:38:20,180
from entering illegally and force them to come through a port of entry where we can

641
00:38:20,180 --> 00:38:21,180
have a conversation.

642
00:38:21,180 --> 00:38:26,820
You know, obviously if the cartels are involved in anything, it's purely for profit.

643
00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:29,180
You talked about drug profit.

644
00:38:29,180 --> 00:38:32,060
You talked about human and sex trafficking profit.

645
00:38:32,060 --> 00:38:35,820
You know, I've heard numbers thrown around of $150 billion or higher for human and sex

646
00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:36,820
trafficking.

647
00:38:36,820 --> 00:38:39,020
Do you have any sense of what that number is?

648
00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:41,300
I know it's illegal money.

649
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:44,780
I've heard some of the same scenarios.

650
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:46,700
It's clearly in the billions.

651
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,240
There's really no perfect way to track it.

652
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:52,920
We look at remittances, money from the U.S. going back to Mexico.

653
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,360
But more and more, they've found ways to basically mask that through purchases.

654
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:04,080
And even think about the value cards, like a card from Target or a Visa card with cash

655
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,080
on it.

656
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,080
That's another way that they're actually, in the last few years, have really ramped

657
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,240
up basically being able to launder money and move money around.

658
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:15,640
And then now crypto has made it even harder than ever.

659
00:39:15,780 --> 00:39:16,780
But here's the bottom line.

660
00:39:16,780 --> 00:39:17,780
It doesn't matter.

661
00:39:17,780 --> 00:39:22,620
I mean, it gives you a volume, but these are lives.

662
00:39:22,620 --> 00:39:23,820
So these are human lives.

663
00:39:23,820 --> 00:39:29,580
These are kids that some of the parents literally have sold their children to be recycled to

664
00:39:29,580 --> 00:39:31,220
make fake families.

665
00:39:31,220 --> 00:39:34,420
And the kid's entire life, people think about sex trafficking, but think about this.

666
00:39:34,420 --> 00:39:40,660
The kid's entire life is traveling through Mexico from the Guatemalan border with some

667
00:39:40,660 --> 00:39:45,300
new family that he just became his family, so that by the time he gets to the border,

668
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,200
he'll be comfortable with them and he won't give off the signs that it's a fake family

669
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,880
just to allow them to use loopholes in the U.S. law to get released into the U.S.

670
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,200
And then he's shipped back to do it again and again and again.

671
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,120
And the simple tools and techniques in place, which literally could be fingerprints and

672
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,040
a photograph, DNA testing.

673
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,760
If he's under 14, this administration has decided not to use any of those tools.

674
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,940
So literally, it's just recurring over and over again.

675
00:40:12,940 --> 00:40:16,520
So I don't care if it's $8 billion or $2 trillion.

676
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,940
I want to save those lives.

677
00:40:18,940 --> 00:40:22,200
That kid would have had a much better life in Guatemala or Honduras than he's ever going

678
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,280
to have doing that repetitive recycling.

679
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,960
So you're raising a lot of different issues that, for obvious reasons, aren't really talked

680
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,240
about in mainstream media.

681
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:35,420
I never heard about recycling of children for the fake families.

682
00:40:35,420 --> 00:40:38,360
So I'm learning something new every time we have these conversations.

683
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,820
What can we as a country, we as a society, we as the United States of America, do to

684
00:40:42,820 --> 00:40:47,540
learn more, to become more educated, and to do more?

685
00:40:47,540 --> 00:40:53,000
So the biggest thing today, and this isn't easy, you've got to do your research.

686
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,460
So when I was chief of the Border Patrol towards the end of my career, people would ask me

687
00:40:57,460 --> 00:41:00,060
all the time, hey, what do you think the biggest threat to America is?

688
00:41:00,060 --> 00:41:04,500
And I think they were always surprised, because chief of the Border Patrol, when I would say

689
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:10,280
the death of true journalism, journalism really doesn't exist except on platforms like this

690
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:16,520
now, social media, every now and then, independent journalists, but mainstream media, and I don't

691
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,760
care if you're on the far right or far left, it's spoon feeding you what you want to hear,

692
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:27,040
and you're missing the rest of the story, as a guy used to always say, right?

693
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,360
I think people need to actually do their own research, and there's places that you can

694
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:32,360
get information.

695
00:41:32,380 --> 00:41:34,860
So I talked a little bit about statistics today.

696
00:41:34,860 --> 00:41:37,020
I don't want you to trust anything I said.

697
00:41:37,020 --> 00:41:41,140
I want you to go to this website, and it's basically Customs and Border Protection, but

698
00:41:41,140 --> 00:41:49,340
it's www.cbp, Customs and Border Protection, .gov, and there's a tab on there for newsroom,

699
00:41:49,340 --> 00:41:53,980
and there's stats and summaries, and you can look at how many illegal aliens are crossing,

700
00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:55,820
how many terrorists, how many criminals.

701
00:41:55,820 --> 00:42:00,700
It's available right there publicly, but most people don't take advantage of that.

702
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:05,680
I really want people to just dive in, look at the issues, but look a little deeper.

703
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,440
Don't believe some of these ... Again, I mentioned before, I'm Christian, I go to church, but

704
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:14,280
I get in debates all the time with these social justice people that want to hijack your compassion

705
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,720
and focus on the individual illegal alien that may be cleaning their house, and not

706
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:24,000
talk about how that illegal alien provided cover for the cartel to smuggle a bunch of

707
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,940
children to be sex trafficked, or forced labor, or whatever else, or the fentanyl, and how

708
00:42:28,940 --> 00:42:31,240
it all goes together.

709
00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:35,000
Just do some research, slow down a little bit, look into the issue, and then please

710
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,640
go vote your values.

711
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,760
Pay attention to what the real true issues are, and then go vote, because that's how

712
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,400
we control things in this country.

713
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,400
What's that website again?

714
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:57,120
www.cbp, as in C as in Customs, B as in Border, P as in Protection, .gov, G-O-V, and there's

715
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,100
a whole bunch of statistics on there that the public could be able to ... Hey, last

716
00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:03,100
but not least, this is a pet peeve of mine.

717
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:08,340
For Americans to vote, they need to be informed, so I advocate for every American to push for

718
00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:13,980
their legislators to mandate that we really, truly have transparency in government, that

719
00:43:13,980 --> 00:43:19,340
every federal agency that touches illegal immigration across border in any way, shape,

720
00:43:19,340 --> 00:43:24,980
or form, to include funding of NGOs that are shipping people all over the country.

721
00:43:24,980 --> 00:43:25,980
That should just be public.

722
00:43:25,980 --> 00:43:27,120
It should be on a website.

723
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,480
You should know where your tax money goes, and it should not be hard.

724
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:35,200
You shouldn't have to do a FOIA to get basic information about what your government is

725
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,800
doing on your behalf.

726
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,840
To the best of your knowledge, what are the primary factors driving the most recent surges

727
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,040
in illegal immigration at the southern border?

728
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,040
This is easy.

729
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,040
No consequences.

730
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:53,440
For 27 years, the border patrol, the US government, if you will, was systematically building out

731
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,180
a strategy on the border built on deterrence.

732
00:43:56,180 --> 00:44:00,700
It was physical deterrence through border walls, agents on the line, but there was also

733
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:04,500
deterrence by having consequences for committing a crime.

734
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:09,760
It is illegal to enter the United States in between ports of entry without documentation.

735
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:15,140
We would prosecute people, and we would deport them back to their country.

736
00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:18,900
Regardless in the human war ... When there's humans involved, think about this for a minute.

737
00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:20,540
You would do the same thing.

738
00:44:20,540 --> 00:44:25,520
If you are entering the United States, if you're going anywhere, and your family's worried

739
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,680
about you, when you get to your destination, you call home, and you just tell them what's

740
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,960
going on, period.

741
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,280
When the illegal aliens start their trek out, and then they get caught coming across in

742
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:41,040
the United States, or they walk up and surrender, and then they get released, and they get a

743
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:45,760
free ticket to New York or Chicago or wherever they want to go, they get put in a hotel,

744
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,000
they get free food, they tell their friends and family about that.

745
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,660
Just because they're checking in.

746
00:44:51,660 --> 00:44:58,060
Above and beyond the cartel's marketing, now you have millions of people marketing worldwide.

747
00:44:58,060 --> 00:45:02,700
By the way, 180 different nations were caught crossing that border illegally, not just South

748
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:04,400
America or Mexico.

749
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,660
That word goes out, and then the second wave, the third wave, the fourth wave comes.

750
00:45:08,660 --> 00:45:11,340
You stop it by simply holding people accountable.

751
00:45:11,340 --> 00:45:14,740
We have laws in place that say you should not be allowed to enter the United States

752
00:45:14,740 --> 00:45:19,040
without legal immigration documents, and if you do, you're going to get deported.

753
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,540
We could line up a million border patrol agents on the border, but if you don't actually deport

754
00:45:23,540 --> 00:45:28,580
people consistent with federal law, if you still let them go into the United States and

755
00:45:28,580 --> 00:45:34,380
be free for several years waiting for a hearing, this onslaught will continue forever.

756
00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:39,680
Maybe as a follow-up to that, are there seasonal patterns to these surges, and how do these

757
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,220
patterns impact the operations and strategies of the U.S. Border Patrol?

758
00:45:44,220 --> 00:45:47,100
So over my career, there really were, but they're gone.

759
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:51,880
So early in my career, there were seasonal migration patterns based on harvest season

760
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,200
in the United States, and that's what a lot of Americans still think about when they think

761
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:56,200
about the border.

762
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,760
They think about illegal aliens coming across to pick apples or lettuce or something and

763
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,440
then going back into Mexico.

764
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,900
That dynamic is long, long, long gone.

765
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:10,380
You see people crossing the border now with suitcases and very nice clothes.

766
00:46:10,380 --> 00:46:11,880
They just know they're going to be released.

767
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:18,340
So there are peaks and valleys based on heat waves and actual cold.

768
00:46:18,340 --> 00:46:21,460
People forget about the Southwest, but a lot of it is mountainous, so in the winter it

769
00:46:21,460 --> 00:46:28,420
does get very cold, and there'll be slowdown when it's super, super hot or super slow.

770
00:46:28,420 --> 00:46:33,620
But those are not like the traditional seasonal peaks and valleys that we used to have.

771
00:46:33,620 --> 00:46:38,520
And honestly, even right now, the valleys far exceed the Border Patrol's capability

772
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:43,340
to effectively manage and determine who and what is in or in our country.

773
00:46:43,340 --> 00:46:47,260
So there really isn't, you don't have the luxury of making those operational adjustments

774
00:46:47,260 --> 00:46:48,260
anymore.

775
00:46:48,260 --> 00:46:52,820
You've mentioned national security threat a few times throughout our conversation.

776
00:46:52,820 --> 00:46:57,020
Were the key security threats and concerns for the East and West Coast, and are maritime

777
00:46:57,020 --> 00:47:01,780
security threats different from land-based border issues?

778
00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:07,780
So they are, and they were always factored in, but it's a vast open area.

779
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,520
For example, so the threats do vary, commercial shipping, but the commercial shipping gets

780
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:14,520
inspected.

781
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:16,720
We have challenges there.

782
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:18,960
But the coasts are wide open.

783
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,480
So this is how the Southwest border affects that, though.

784
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,520
I'll give you an example.

785
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,660
Southern California, when I was the chief out there, we had boats landing all the way

786
00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:32,600
up to as far, almost just to San Francisco, with 8,000 to 10,000 pounds of narcotics.

787
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,200
L.A. South, full of illegal aliens from a bunch of different countries.

788
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,700
But as we secured the Southwest border, we were able to shift border patrol agents to

789
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:44,740
work with state and local, and we were actually getting pretty effective at catching those

790
00:47:44,740 --> 00:47:50,380
boats landing at remote areas along the coast, or coming in even to harbors.

791
00:47:50,380 --> 00:47:55,260
But unfortunately, the chaos of the border has pulled all those resources away.

792
00:47:55,260 --> 00:47:56,540
And again, it's just like your house.

793
00:47:56,540 --> 00:47:58,660
I want you to think about it like that.

794
00:47:58,660 --> 00:48:02,700
If you don't have the mechanisms in place to make sure somebody comes through your front

795
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:05,740
door, you really don't have any security.

796
00:48:05,740 --> 00:48:11,280
So it's not just the Southwest border that gets most of the attention, but it's all of

797
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:12,280
our borders.

798
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,960
Thank God we have a great relationship with Canada, so it's not as challenging up there

799
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,760
as it is with Mexico.

800
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,360
But even the Canadian borders, there's still threats.

801
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,440
We still need to patrol it, and we need those resources out there, making sure that we are

802
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:29,840
deciding who and what enters our home, not the cartels.

803
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,480
I love how you keep bringing it back to the home analogy, because that really makes it

804
00:48:32,980 --> 00:48:35,700
personal, something we can think about and identify with.

805
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:41,140
And so thank you for bringing it down for folks like me to kind of think about and chew

806
00:48:41,140 --> 00:48:43,020
on.

807
00:48:43,020 --> 00:48:44,300
We have just a few minutes left.

808
00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:47,340
You talked earlier about the website they could go to.

809
00:48:47,340 --> 00:48:52,420
What else can we, as average Americans, do to help with the issues of the borders?

810
00:48:52,420 --> 00:48:57,580
So I think, actually, let's just say that you do your research and you start learning,

811
00:48:57,580 --> 00:48:59,700
and it opens your eyes a little bit.

812
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:04,920
I think the thing that is still missing is literally civil conversation between friends

813
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,680
and relatives that don't necessarily agree.

814
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,000
And it's challenging.

815
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,400
I'm not sugarcoating that at all.

816
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,280
I have some of the same challenges.

817
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,760
However, that's really where we make a difference.

818
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,120
I tell people all the time when I'm talking to different groups now that whether I like

819
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:27,120
it or not, I'm kind of seen as a talking head, like a political, I have an angle, of course.

820
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,300
So unless I have a relationship with somebody, they're not really going to change their opinion

821
00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:33,700
based on something I give them.

822
00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:37,980
It's literally the small group, the neighbor mentality, or like churches would talk about,

823
00:49:37,980 --> 00:49:42,460
like small groups, where you build a relationship and then you have those conversations.

824
00:49:42,460 --> 00:49:44,580
That is where we start educating America.

825
00:49:44,580 --> 00:49:46,540
That's where we make the biggest difference.

826
00:49:46,540 --> 00:49:51,100
So I just ask every one of your listeners today, your viewers, hey, don't just take

827
00:49:51,100 --> 00:49:55,660
this information and then get more angry or more polarized in your position, assuming

828
00:49:55,660 --> 00:49:57,960
you support border security.

829
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,360
Please think about how you can convey this information or tell somebody else to watch

830
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:07,680
this podcast, but figure out a way to get other people to understand that the border

831
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:12,880
really is super complex and super simple, but have those conversations so that they

832
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,680
get out of that media cycle where they're just being spoon-fed what they want.

833
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,240
You and I were talking before the show today.

834
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:23,520
We were connected through mutual friends, Andy Berger and BQ Column, and I told you

835
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:29,460
then that I never thought about human trafficking and sex trafficking before meeting those two

836
00:50:29,460 --> 00:50:31,620
fantastic heroes.

837
00:50:31,620 --> 00:50:36,620
I mean, many more people like that out there, and to your point, just get more engaged and

838
00:50:36,620 --> 00:50:37,620
more involved.

839
00:50:37,620 --> 00:50:40,100
Because like I said, this is something I knew nothing about.

840
00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:42,860
And since that, about three years ago, three and a half years ago, when I first had Andy

841
00:50:42,860 --> 00:50:47,420
on, that's now become a major focus for me personally, but also for the show in terms

842
00:50:47,420 --> 00:50:50,740
of raising the awareness, yelling from the top of the mountain, hey, we've got an issue

843
00:50:50,740 --> 00:50:51,740
here.

844
00:50:51,740 --> 00:50:52,740
Open your eyes.

845
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,520
And just be educated in terms of what your decisions are going to be and to do something

846
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:01,160
because to your point, we can't just be spoon-fed by whether it's Fox or CNN or MSNBC or whatever

847
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,080
it is.

848
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:04,080
Just do what you got to do.

849
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:05,080
I agree, Chris.

850
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:06,080
Thank you.

851
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,760
I don't know how a better way to end it than that.

852
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,720
So Rodney Scott, really, thank you so much for being with us today.

853
00:51:13,720 --> 00:51:18,320
It was an absolute honor, and it takes a special person and character to do what you do, and

854
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,540
so thank you for your service.

855
00:51:20,540 --> 00:51:21,540
Thank you, Chris.

856
00:51:21,540 --> 00:51:22,540
I appreciate it.

857
00:51:22,540 --> 00:51:23,540
And share the truth, though, man.

858
00:51:23,540 --> 00:51:24,940
That's the most important thing out there today.

859
00:51:24,940 --> 00:51:25,940
Absolutely.

860
00:51:25,940 --> 00:51:29,360
And thank you to our audience, which now includes people in over 50 countries, for joining us

861
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,620
for another episode of Next Steps Forward.

862
00:51:31,620 --> 00:51:32,620
I'm Chris Meek.

863
00:51:32,620 --> 00:51:37,100
For more details on upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at facebook.com

864
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:42,180
forward slash chrismeekpublicfigure and on X at chrismeek underscore USA.

865
00:51:42,180 --> 00:51:45,940
We'll be back next Tuesday, same time, same place, with another leader from the world

866
00:51:45,940 --> 00:51:49,860
of business, politics, public policy, sports, or entertainment.

867
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:57,860
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

868
00:51:57,860 --> 00:52:00,640
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.

869
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:05,820
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific Time

870
00:52:05,820 --> 00:52:10,700
and 1 p.m. Eastern Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

871
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:13,660
This week, make things happen in your life.