Let’s Change The World w/ Emiliana Vegas

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello, I'm Chris Meek, and you've tuned to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward.

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As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

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Our special guest today is Emiliana Vegas.

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Emiliana has been highly recognized for her career working to inform education policy

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in the so-called global south.

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She's been a leading economist at the World Bank, division chief of education at the Inter-American

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Bank, and co-director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution.

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She's a professor of practice at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and lives in

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Cambridge, Massachusetts.

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And she's the author of a fascinating and ambitiously titled newly released book, Let's

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Change the World.

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Emiliana Vegas, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Thank you for having me.

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I love the title of this book.

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We're going to get into it later.

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That's what this whole show is about, and so I really appreciate your time here, especially

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given your busy schedule.

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So first question, help me get my bearings when it comes to your education policy work

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in the global south.

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Could you define the global south?

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Well, the global south is a term used mainly in the global north to refer to countries

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that are in the southern hemisphere and that have less development than countries like

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the U.S. and most European countries, for example.

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And what drew you to focus professionally on that region and an education policy?

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So I actually am originally from the global south.

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I was born in South America and I came to the United States to study in high school.

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It was part of my parents' belief that their children should have a great education, and

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they didn't believe that there were great schools in our country, in Venezuela at the

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time.

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So they made a big investment at the time in both resources and emotional strain on

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all of us to be apart at the time when we didn't have iPhones or internet or, you know,

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we had to communicate by regular post, mail mail, and, you know, very expensive phone

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calls once a week at most.

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When I returned home for college, I realized that I had a huge advantage over my peers

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who had come from some of the best schools and were some of the best students in the

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rest of the country.

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And yet, you know, I didn't have to work as hard in college as I had worked in high school.

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I wasn't as challenged.

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And I felt very early on that it must be because countries like my own didn't have a good public

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and private education systems that we didn't progress.

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And I decided to devote my life to that cause.

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How old were you when you came here?

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I was almost 13, so just turning 13.

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And because of the differences in the education systems, I actually skipped a grade.

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So it was particularly challenging.

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I had finished what was primary school in Venezuela at 12, almost 13.

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And I entered ninth grade at that age.

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And anyone who knows me knows I'm not particularly tall.

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I've never been.

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So I was not only younger, but I was shorter, and I was more girlish than my adolescent

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peers.

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It was not fun.

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It wasn't that way.

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But I did enjoy and really appreciate the opportunity to be in an environment that was

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so challenging in multiple ways.

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And I knew that it was a sacrifice that my parents were making, and that I should make

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the most of it.

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So even though it was not fun, it was definitely a learning experience.

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Let's Change the World is focused quite a bit on the world of international development.

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For those who don't know, what is international development?

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International development refers to institutions that work to improve economic development

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and social welfare in low- and middle-income countries.

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So they work through providing resources and technical assistance to these governments.

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And in your book, you explain that there are five main types of your IDOs.

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What are those five types?

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What do they do?

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And how are they different from each other?

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Sure.

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So the first broad category are what I call global funders.

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These are organizations who get most of their resources from the countries themselves, from

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both wealthy and poor countries.

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And then they work through governments to help them adopt better policies, implement

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programs that will work to improve economic development and reduce poverty.

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The most sort of global of these funders is the World Bank, but we also have regional

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development banks, like the Inter-American Development Bank, where I worked for Latin

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America and the Caribbean.

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There's also the African Development Bank, the Asian Development Bank, and so on.

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The second major category is what I call private philanthropies.

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And they differ from the global funders in the sense that they are not funded by governments

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or by taxpayers' resources.

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They're rather funded by very wealthy families or individuals who want to help the cause

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of international development.

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Some of the best-known are the Gates Foundation in Education.

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I'm on the board of a Swiss foundation called the Jacobs Foundation that does a lot of work

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to improve learning outcomes among children worldwide, and so on.

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And then the third category is what I call the advisors.

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So there's a lot of think tanks and both for-profit and non-profit consulting firms that provide

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research and evidence to international development organizations and governments in low- and

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middle-income countries to help them develop.

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So organizations like McKinsey's of the World or the main companies, but also Research Triangle

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Institute, where I started my career, or RTI International, as it is now known, Mathematica,

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RAND Corporation.

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So there's a lot of them.

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And the fourth category is what I call conveners.

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These are organizations that don't necessarily provide funding, but they do convene the major

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stakeholders and help set agendas, help find common ground to move forward in international

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development as a whole.

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The best-known, of course, is the United Nations.

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I group Brookings in this category.

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And I should say that I group them in their main sort of function, but many of them carry

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out other functions.

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So for example, the global funders also advise and also convene, but their major sort of

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role is really to provide the financial resources.

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And then finally, I have the group called implementers.

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And I want to say, really, last but not least, I mean, they're so important.

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They're organizations like UNICEF, Save the Children, and many others that are present

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in-country and work alongside governments and other non-government organizations to

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really deliver the programs that are funded by other players, including governments.

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The title of your book is very optimistic and aggressive.

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How'd you come up with the title?

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Oh, that's okay.

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So there have been other books written by former international development officials

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that have been very critical of these institutions.

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And they generally refer to them as institutions where people may have started with the right

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goals, but over time got very frustrated and frustrated by the lack of results, and then

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therefore stopped kind of being enthusiastic about it.

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And I actually had a very different experience myself.

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And I think part of it is that I always felt like I could make a difference.

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And I always had a way of figuring out, or I tried, right?

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And when I didn't, when instead of getting frustrated, I just moved on to a different

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organization when the time was there.

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So my book really tries to shed, first of all, a positive light on the organizations

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without being naive and recognizing that there are a lot of issues with them and challenges

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within them.

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But I also feel like they provide an incredible platform to really make a difference.

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And so I was able to navigate them effectively.

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I avoided sort of what I call the trap of the golden handcuffs, which is, you know,

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they do have incredible benefits, especially retirement benefits.

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And so a lot of people are afraid of leaving them when they're ready to leave because they're

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going to lose on these benefits.

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And that's a reality.

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And so you have a not insignificant group of staffers who really are no longer committed

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to the mission. And they're just kind of counting time to retirement.

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And I didn't want to be one of them.

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I encountered one of them very early on.

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And she wasn't even, you know, so old that she had a lot of time left.

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And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's my biggest fear to have to work in a place and not want

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to be there.

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You've mentioned that international development is about reducing poverty and improving human

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well-being in the world's poorest regions.

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From a 30,000 foot view, how successful those efforts been?

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Well, I mean, it depends on how you measure it.

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So the mission of these organizations, if they were really successful, would be to go out

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of business. Right.

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Once you reduce poverty and improve human well-being, you should no longer need these

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organizations. And in fact, what's happened because of, you know, the challenges that we

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all know, you know, the growing inequality, the issues with climate change, the civil

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unrest and wars that we're facing, the incredible and, you know, authoritarian and

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oppressive regimes that some countries face that lead to people seeking new opportunities

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in different countries and refugees and migrants.

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And so the problems are really complex.

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And you need you still need these organizations.

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And I don't I mean, I would say that there have been progress made when you look, for

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example, at education, which is my area.

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We have made incredible progress in getting children all over the world to attend school

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and to stay in school.

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We have been less successful in getting them to learn the skills they need to thrive.

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And so it's I think an evolution that the more we do, the more we also learn about where

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we're succeeding as a collective and where are the failures and where are the changes

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that are needed. And so you see today a whole consensus around efforts to improve

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foundational learning, literacy and numeracy in in low and low and middle income

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countries, because the problem of, let's say, getting kids to school has been largely

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been addressed.

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But now we have this new challenge.

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We also have big challenges across gender opportunities of girls having lower learning

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opportunities in many regions than boys, for many reasons, including cultural norms and

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historical traditions.

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And so some of these things are easier than others, because how do you address cultural

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norms and historical traditions from an international organization?

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That's really hard to do.

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And so I I would say we've had some great successes, but the challenges are so enormous

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that there's still a lot of work to be done.

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Well, maybe as a follow up to that, a little bit deeper, where do we have the most work yet

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to do and where are some of the success stories to date?

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Well, there are some great success stories in terms of fighting some diseases like

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malaria with low and low costs and cost effective mechanisms.

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There's always there's also some successes in education with finding ways to with low

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capacity systems where they can deliver high quality instruction at scale using things

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like structured pedagogy and helping teachers, giving them good materials.

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We've had successes in helping, like I said earlier, getting all kids to school, having

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their infrastructure necessary and also the reducing the time that it takes children to

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get to a learning facility.

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We've had successes in addressing some of the challenges in agriculture and food

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production and in and less so in reducing carbon emissions.

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But, you know, so the problem, I think, is that different organizations focus on different

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issues and these convening organizations are the ones that have sort of the bigger

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picture. And for example, the United Nations has the sustainable development goals that

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are about 16 goals in multiple sectors that should that they're recommending and

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tracking that countries achieve by 2030.

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And we're far from that.

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And so we're far from that, in part because it's costly and challenging to get there.

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And also, in part, because the world faced this incredible pandemic in 2020 that sort of

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made us stop, for example, offering education, most schools closed, you know, and we

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had so many restrictions on our capacity to deliver services to people.

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So so it's it's a it's a combination of man-made and and sort of other man-made

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disasters and things that sort of happen that we have no control over.

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Earlier, you mentioned the private philanthropy is always the first one I think of, and

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that's the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

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And of course, its focus is on disease eradication and other priorities.

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What are some of the other big names in private philanthropy in the international

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development arena? And do you see any emerging leaders or trends of particular interest?

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Yeah, so certainly the Gates Foundation has been, you know, very important.

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I think other leaders include, for example, in the girls' education space, there's the

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Echidna Foundation, founded by two former, I think, some of the earlier employees of

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Google, and who made a fortune and now are doing that.

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A lot of the, you know, historical, traditional philanthropies like Rockefeller, Ford,

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MacArthur Foundation continue to invest both in the U.S.

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but also overseas in education.

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There are foundations that focus on also research so that we can generate more

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knowledge that then affects policies, including the Spencer Foundation based in

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Chicago, the Jacobs Foundation that I mentioned based in Switzerland.

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And then there, you have a whole host of foundations that and implementation sort of

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NGOs that do very specific work that's very important.

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Let's say Room to Read, Save the Children and others that are funded by

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philanthropists but are very active, let's say.

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We can't really talk about international development without thinking about climate

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change and its effects.

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Is climate change making it more difficult for the world's poorest regions to succeed?

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And how do we balance helping those regions develop, not negatively contributing to

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climate change? Well, the puzzle is that the biggest contributors to the climate

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change issue are not the developing regions, have been historically the U.S.

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and China since it's been developed.

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And so there's this big argument from large countries like India and Brazil that if

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they adopt sort of recommendations of the climate change community, that they won't be

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able to develop as fast as other regions.

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So that in some ways, for example, we know the Amazon, which is largely in Brazil, but

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also in Venezuela and Ecuador, Colombia, that it is sort of the world's biggest

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reservoir and producer of oxygen.

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And so we need this to be preserved as it is.

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And yet the countries themselves don't have a lot of incentives.

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So there's a big debate.

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And this is, I have to say, I follow it, but it's not the area that I focused on around

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who should pay the costs of protecting our planet.

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And given that some have some advanced economies have been contributing more to the

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climate change problem, and now they have the resources to perhaps draw back on their

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contributions, not as fast as we wish.

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And depending on the leadership, as we know of each country, how seriously they take it

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or not. But then if we impose the same regulations in the poorer countries, it's costly

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to limit production in some industries that then affect the climate.

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And so who should, should those countries be compensated for reducing their own carbon

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emissions? And I believe they should.

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And I think that's part of the work that international development organizations and

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conveners do is trying to mitigate the impact of those producers of carbon emissions

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that hurt our climate, but also the cost of limiting that for them in terms of their

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economic development and creation of wealth that then will benefit their own citizens.

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A common belief is that banks, and especially the very big banks, are just in it for

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themselves and they don't do anything that doesn't benefit them.

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As one of the five different types of players in international development, are the

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multilateral development banks forces for good?

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Are they just in for the profits or is it a combination of both?

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I really think they're a force for good, but of course, it depends.

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And of course, having worked there for 20 years, I would be really crazy to say

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otherwise. But I think, I mean, to be very honest, they have the opportunity and the

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mandate to be a force for good.

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There's nothing more inspiring than you walk into the lobby of the main headquarter

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building of the World Bank and you see in big sign, our dream is a world free of poverty.

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And that's how you start your day.

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You know, the IDB where I worked is we are all about improving lives.

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That's the message. And it's just so inspiring that every day, if you remember, why

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are you there? What are you trying to do?

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And I think the fact is that you have a governing body in these institutions that is

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representative of all the countries, both the donor countries and the recipient

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countries. So anything that the banks do has to be sanctioned by all the stakeholders.

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And so in that sense, there's, you know, there is a mandate.

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There's also a governance around it to ensure that the banks are not making profit for

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themselves. There's limits on how you can, you know, as organizations, whether you can

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grow or, you know, what they call staff counts or head counts within units so that

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there's a lot of regulation around salaries and benefits.

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Of course, they have to be relatively generous because they want to attract the most

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talented people from all over the world.

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And so given that you want to attract the most talented people from high income countries

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that pay really good wages and have great benefits like Germany, Austria, Finland and

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Switzerland, and then you also want to attract, you know, you can't have differential

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salaries depending on where you're from.

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So for some for some individuals, it's a really great opportunity and much better than

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anything they could have in their own countries.

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But in order to access them, you have to have great credentials and experience.

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And so I think it is a meritocracy.

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I think it is an opportunity, you know, they do provide opportunities to do really

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amazing work. I think at the same time, they can be seen as organizations that impose

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their own agendas as opposed to responding really, truly to what are the needs of the

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low and middle income countries that they serve.

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And I think that's what I try to reflect in my book, that there are ways in which I

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never worked in a country without having deep relationships, consultations and really

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collaborations with the key players in those countries, not just the government, but

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also the key people in the private sector and the civil society sector.

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In my case, in speaking with the union leaders of teachers, unions are an important

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player in education.

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And so really understanding what is it that you think the government should be doing and

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how do you think we can work together to improve public education and then really

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bringing outside evidence like what you think might have been tried elsewhere and it

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hasn't worked. And this other thing has been tried elsewhere and has worked.

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What do you think? Do you think this is possible to implement in your country?

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And so I think those are the opportunities that I think are so remarkable.

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Now that I'm in academia and even when I was at Brookings, I realized that we do amazing

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research from these institutions and we have access to great thinking and great evidence,

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but we don't have access to the key stakeholders in the same way.

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You know, this is the great advantage of the development banks.

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You have ongoing relationships with countries and governments for years and years.

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So even if you don't have necessarily a loan at a moment in time, you have a technical

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assistance project. You have some strategy that you're working on for future loans.

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So you're always learning about what are the key challenges.

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How can we position ourselves as an international development organization to help

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them, not just in the present, but really in the medium and long term?

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Earlier, you're talking about conveners and you mentioned the United Nations is one of

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the main players. How much does the UN control things?

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Is it a case of if they say something should or shouldn't be done, they've got the final

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word? No, not at all.

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Unfortunately, in some cases, frankly, because I feel it, for example, I mean, I'm from

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Venezuela, I mentioned, and we just had an election a few months ago on July 28th and

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the UN was allowed to observe, even though we have a quite authoritarian regime and we

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had a very effective opposition in being

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able to record and prove that the opposition

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candidate won by a landslide.

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And the UN has confirmed this and the Carter Center and many international

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conveners like the Organization of American States, which has a huge voice

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in Latin America. And yet we have you know, they haven't been able to

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to get the current regime to admit that they lost, to provide

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evidence that they won.

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They don't have, of course, but moreover, to stop hurting people.

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They are repressing the voice of many, many Venezuelans, including

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minors, by jailing them and torturing them.

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And there's been the UN Human Rights Watch has come out with reports that are extremely

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disturbing. So they have voice.

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They don't have a lot of teeth to go along with the voice, sadly.

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And I think that depends really on the countries themselves that vote for, you know,

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who sits in which part of the UN committees and also in the

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research they provide to be to these organizations to help them have more than just

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voice. When did you first realize that international development was what you wanted to do

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as your career? Did you consciously prepare for it or was a case where, as you were in

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college, your studies took you to the profession?

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Definitely, it's not something I ever had planned in college.

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I, my undergrad was in journalism and I knew that I wanted to affect policy, but I

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did not have good, I had no exposure to international development agencies until

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I really, until I was in my master's program at Duke University in North Carolina, which

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is a master's in public policy.

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And that summer, between my first and second years, I interned at RTI International,

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which is based in North Carolina, and they had a center for international development.

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And it was the first time that I saw that organizations like the World Bank, the US

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Agency for International Development and others were seeking and hiring places

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like RTI to provide research and technical advice to them on how to invest their funding.

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And I was fascinated by that.

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I was also the first time that I really started learning economics in a way that connected

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with me. The professors at Duke that I taught economics in my program were all economists

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of education. And my direct supervisor at RTI was also an economist working on education

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policy issues. And so it all sort of came together that I could, you know, use my

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emerging economic and policy analysis skills to help countries improve their education

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systems through policy analysis.

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And, you know, to be honest, even when I graduated and worked full time at RTI for a

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few years and then decided to get my own doctorate in economics of education, my goal

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was not to work full time in international development, but to contribute through academia.

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But life, you know, has its twists and turns.

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And I ended up enjoying much more the work of of not just being a researcher, but being a

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research being producing research that is directly impacting policy making.

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And so I felt like academia, you know, at this stage in my career is great because I have all

363
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this experience that I can refer to.

364
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But that experience was really exciting when I was younger.

365
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Perfect segue for the next question.

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My introduction at the top of the podcast was just a thumbnail sketch of several decades of

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00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,880
your work. Would you paint a more detailed picture of your time at both the World Bank and

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the Brookings Institution?

369
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,360
Yeah, so I started at the World Bank right after getting my doctoral degree here at Harvard

370
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:06,840
where I now teach, and I started in a program that is called the Young Professionals

371
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Program. It's a program where they admit between 30 and 40 young professionals, meaning

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people 32 and under, who have to have had a graduate degree from just a college education

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and and some experience in international development in any field.

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So they recruit for, you know, rural development, for health, for education, for

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00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,880
transportation, anything.

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So some are engineers, majority are economists, but we also recruit, they also recruit

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lawyers, sociologists, et cetera.

378
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,560
And it's a great way to enter these institutions because as a program and because you

379
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all enter together, they treat you as a cohort and they give you a lot of professional

380
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development opportunities.

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00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:56,440
One of them is to the well, by design, the first year you're in a part of the World

382
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,160
Bank and the second year you have a second rotation.

383
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So already you have some, you know, ability to see different parts of the institution.

384
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,680
And then after your second year, second rotation, you should find yourself your first,

385
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,720
they call it permanent assignment, which has to be at least three years, no more than five

386
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:23,880
ideally. And the, you know, it was a great way because you also get all this training

387
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:28,600
about how do you lead teams, how do you work across cultures, you know, all this work,

388
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,880
how does the bank work, what's the difference between, you know, operations and

389
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,080
research, what's the difference between technical assistance and projects that are

390
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,200
more of lending, you know, loans.

391
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,160
And I spent 11 years navigating sort of, I was a young professional for two years.

392
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I did four years in the Latin America education team and then four years in the global

393
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practice. And it was a great exposure.

394
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You know, it gave me the opportunity to learn about education policy, not just in the

395
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,360
area that I had worked in my dissertation, which had to do with how to attract, develop

396
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:12,960
and retain good teachers, but also how to work in school finance and in lifelong

397
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,200
learning and early childhood.

398
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,240
So the countries have different demands and you sort of have to do research in many

399
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:25,280
areas and design operations to support these countries, both lending operations and

400
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,440
technical assistance grants to help them address some of their challenges.

401
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,840
So it was incredibly enriching and exciting.

402
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:38,240
And although I worked a lot in Latin America, I also had the opportunity to travel to

403
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,120
India, to Africa, to China, to Thailand.

404
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,000
And so it was like a whole world that opened to me.

405
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:52,520
And I guess, you know, after many, many years there, after 11 years, I really concluded

406
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,880
that I wanted to devote most of my efforts to Latin America and the Caribbean.

407
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:03,280
I recognize that they had huge challenges and also that because sub-Saharan Africa and

408
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,720
South Asia are still behind in many development indicators, a lot of the funding, a lot

409
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:15,880
of the sort of advanced economies really want to solve those countries' problems first and

410
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,400
they invest a lot more attention.

411
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,840
And so I felt like Latin America was getting neglected.

412
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:25,080
I still feel that actually, at least by the global funders and the private philanthropies

413
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,080
as in general, they prioritize.

414
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,320
So I felt like, well, I can make a difference in this region and there's a lot more

415
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,440
attention going to the other parts of the world.

416
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,240
And I also have a competitive advantage.

417
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,160
I speak the languages and I come from there.

418
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And, you know, while the countries definitely differ a lot, there's a lot of similarities

419
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,720
in our histories and in our language.

420
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,400
And so that was that.

421
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,280
And that led me to move to the Inter-American Development Bank, where I headed their

422
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,080
education division for seven years.

423
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:56,600
And that was a great opportunity.

424
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:03,840
That was in my early 40s, the opportunity to lead a team of 30 or so professionals and

425
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,320
another 30 consultants, half of whom were in countries and half of whom were in

426
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,880
Washington in the headquarters.

427
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,040
It was just exciting.

428
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:18,720
I learned that I love the challenge of helping people discover their talents and

429
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,760
building teams where you combine expertise, you know, where you have someone who knows

430
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,920
a lot about research and data and someone who really knows how to get things done,

431
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,640
which are often competing skills, apparently.

432
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,120
And so, you know, that's kind of the best combination.

433
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,720
And then also I had the responsibility of telling people where they would have to be

434
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,240
physically with their families for a few years.

435
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,320
And and so how do you navigate that without making bad decisions that will hurt a person

436
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,120
and their family? And so you have to do a lot of conversations, a lot of negotiation, a

437
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,720
lot of trying to figure out if I move this staff person from Trinidad and Tobago to

438
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,600
Jamaica, who goes to Trinidad and where does the Jamaica person go to?

439
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,360
And so it was quite interesting.

440
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,560
But it's also very challenging.

441
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,200
I had very little control of my schedule.

442
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:14,680
I was always kind of, you know, putting out fires in some ways, both from, you know, my

443
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,920
own team and the issues, but also responding to the needs of the vice president and the

444
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,320
president and people above me.

445
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,840
So you're, as they say, you're kind of a classic middle manager in most positions.

446
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,560
Even though you have some authority and room to make a difference, you're still in the

447
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,640
sandwich, in the worst part of the sandwich.

448
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,640
Someone was saying like that, you know, wet lettuce after the sandwich has been sitting

449
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:42,400
there. And so, you know, it was really important because I just had been doing it for

450
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,800
seven years, had learned a lot and recognized that it was time to move, that I went to

451
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,720
Brookings. And that was a great experience as well.

452
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:56,880
And I would say the challenge for me during my time at Brookings was that I, well, first

453
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,800
the pandemic hit shortly after I arrived.

454
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,120
So I was stuck in Zoom world and having a lot of meetings via Zoom.

455
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,880
And I'm a very social person.

456
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,680
I like to work in teams and it was really impossible.

457
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,000
But also the institution itself is an institution where scholars work very independently.

458
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:19,080
So that part where you lead a team, even though I had the title of director, you actually

459
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,360
weren't leading teams, you were facilitating resources.

460
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:29,600
And it wasn't as fun, I guess as fun for me personally, because although I love research,

461
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,840
I really mostly love the sort of producing research that is used.

462
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:35,920
So now at Harvard, I get to do both.

463
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:41,440
I get to, you know, share research, not just of my own, but of the whole world with my

464
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,120
students who are coming to Harvard to really learn and go back to their countries and or

465
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,960
stay in the U.S. to change the world.

466
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,480
And I also get to do my own research.

467
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,600
And I also get called by a lot of organizations across the world for advice and for helping

468
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,000
them, you know, connect to others.

469
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,440
And so I love playing that role.

470
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,640
I think I'm in the right place for now and hopefully for the rest of my career.

471
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:06,960
We'll see.

472
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:08,280
Not many people can say that.

473
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,720
So congratulations to you for that.

474
00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:14,160
What are a few of the most exciting and most rewarding projects you've worked on?

475
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,200
Ones that you feel you've made the most difference?

476
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:23,920
I really think the one I'm most proud of is really a series of projects that began when

477
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,640
I was at the World Bank as a fairly, you know, just after I graduated from the Young

478
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,680
Professionals Program.

479
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:36,960
And it was a request that came to the bank from the government of Chile to help provide

480
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:44,880
evidence on how to reform the whole central education, let's say institutionality, that

481
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,080
governs the system.

482
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,920
And so they had a nationwide school choice program, which they still do.

483
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,960
And they fund schools based on student attendance.

484
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,600
And it doesn't matter whether the school is public or private.

485
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:03,520
And they were finding after many years of this sort of program and many efforts to sort

486
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:11,280
of help schools that were underperforming, et cetera, that the system without more regulation

487
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:17,040
was not delivering in terms of quality and equity to the hopes of the people.

488
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:22,320
And so the president announced, President Michelle Bachelet in her first period, announced

489
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:23,840
the creation of a new institution.

490
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,000
She called it the superintendency, with the idea that it would provide some fiscal control

491
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,760
of the public resources being transferred to schools.

492
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,080
But it was unclear how would that happen?

493
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,040
What would that do in terms of what the ministry was doing?

494
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,440
How would that affect quality?

495
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,560
Because it was unclear how would the control of resources necessarily link to improvements

496
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:47,200
in quality.

497
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,840
So we were tasked with the sort of really exploring how other countries that have similar

498
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,560
systems where students choose or families choose a public or a private school that is

499
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:04,640
funded by the government, how did they guarantee some level of quality and fairness in the

500
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:05,040
system?

501
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:10,080
And so we looked at systems like New Zealand, Australia, the Netherlands, Belgium, some

502
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:18,720
of the UK systems, and we really went in depth to what kind of institutions do they have?

503
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:20,240
What do these institutions do?

504
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:25,680
How do they share these responsibilities of quality assurance?

505
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,600
And it was a great experience.

506
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:35,920
And it led to a huge reform in Chile that was sanctioned by parliament and then created

507
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:42,320
not just the superintendency, but an agency for education quality that now assesses schools,

508
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,840
provides information to schools for improvement and supports schools.

509
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,040
And then later on, when I was now at the IDB, they came back to us and asked for help on

510
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:57,520
how to strengthen public education, because that whole initial reform had provided some

511
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,920
resources of support to schools to improve, but it hadn't prioritized public schools.

512
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:09,120
And this migration of students, let's say, from public to private schools continued over

513
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:09,680
many years.

514
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:15,440
And it wasn't necessarily now a problem of do public schools provide quality, but as

515
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,160
a country, they were asking themselves, do we want a system where some students attend

516
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,680
private schools at each price point and the poorest students are left to public schools?

517
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,840
And is that the kind of society we want?

518
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,960
And they came to the conclusion that they didn't want that kind of society, that they

519
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:36,800
wanted a less segregated system by socioeconomic background of the student.

520
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:43,280
And so we were there to, again, look at other experiences outside of Chile and provide some

521
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,960
advice, but really hand in hand with not just the minister of education, but the minister

522
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:51,600
of finance is very involved in Chile and all things, of course, because they have budget

523
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:52,240
implications.

524
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:58,560
And so it also, you know, as someone who had worked in education for a long time, and as

525
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:05,600
an economist, I have to say, it's rare that you have a ministry of education that recognizes

526
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:12,800
that how you fund the system actually creates incentives for improvement in quality or not.

527
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,440
And so it was a very interesting learning experience.

528
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,960
And something that I'm proud of is all these reforms that have happened over time.

529
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,040
It doesn't mean that they don't still struggle with a lot of challenges, but I will say it's

530
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:28,000
one of the fastest improving countries in our region and also one that has managed to

531
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,760
reduce learning inequality by socioeconomic background of the student.

532
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,000
I can tell by the smile on your face and the uplifting your voice how proud you are of

533
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:36,080
that.

534
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,440
So congratulations to you.

535
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,120
That's phenomenal.

536
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:39,600
It's amazing.

537
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:41,520
All right, let's get into your book.

538
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,720
Let's Change the World is a book for current and aspiring changemakers.

539
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:46,800
You've divided it into three parts.

540
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,600
First, how you get in, then how you thrive, and how to make a real difference.

541
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:53,600
That's a lot to tackle.

542
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:55,520
Why did you want to write the book?

543
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,680
You know, when I moved to Harvard, I encountered a lot of really aspiring changemakers, our

544
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:10,320
masters and doctoral students who came to my office hours or to my classes to learn

545
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:12,880
about how these organizations work.

546
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:18,320
And I realized that the sort of general knowledge was very, very slim, let me say it that way.

547
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:24,800
So when I, many of them, you know, I gave a presentation my first year about sort of,

548
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,400
which actually has, was the initial table that's now in the book about these five categories

549
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,080
and types of organizations.

550
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,760
And some of the students would come after and say, I thought the World Bank was like

551
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:36,640
a regular bank.

552
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:40,480
I didn't know they actually did research and helped countries, you know.

553
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:45,520
So I realized that many of them thought I had been working in a private bank and probably

554
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,880
wondered what she's doing in a school of education now, you know.

555
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,200
And it's true that even when I went to countries often in the taxi, you know, you talk to the

556
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,600
taxi driver and they'll ask you, where do you work?

557
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,560
And if I said the World Bank, they'd ask me, can I go up on an account there?

558
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,120
And I said, no, no, no, I don't have an account or that kind of thing.

559
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,120
And so I realized like generally there was very little understanding.

560
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:12,880
And then I also had kind of the inspiration by someone who's not so early in their career,

561
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:18,640
but actually has been in the space of international development from the social entrepreneur side

562
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,120
and the academic side and has been working with some of these global organizations.

563
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:28,320
And we had coffee here in Cambridge in January of 2023.

564
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,040
So six months after I joined Harvard.

565
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,160
He was probing me and asking me lots of questions about how does the World Bank work?

566
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,440
And I don't understand why I get told this, but then it's that.

567
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,920
And so I gave him the very frank, here's how it works.

568
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,920
This is why you should talk to this person and not that person based on where they sit

569
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:51,200
and what their interests are.

570
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:57,040
And at the very end of a two-hour coffee conversation, he said, you should really write a book.

571
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,240
You know, you would help me and others like me.

572
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,400
And honestly, like, you know, I teach all my courses in the fall

573
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,800
strategically to have more time in the spring.

574
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:07,920
So this is January.

575
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,280
I was going to be reforming some of my courses,

576
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,600
drawing lessons from the fall experience.

577
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,080
But I had time on my hands and he planted this idea and I just ran with it.

578
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,800
So I'm very grateful to Noam and Chris who ended up writing the foreword to the book.

579
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,800
What do you hope people who read it will take away from the book?

580
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:35,440
I hope that people, you know, really learn from the book what they need to do to make

581
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,360
a difference in the world through international development or otherwise.

582
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,240
I think it's, you know, often when I talk about the book or I present it,

583
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:50,000
people say there's a lot of career tips that are applicable to other spaces as well.

584
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:58,000
But my hope is really that I think most people who, you know, get an education,

585
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:04,560
want to balance getting, you know, getting a well-paying job with making a difference

586
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:09,840
in whatever area they're interested in making a difference, whether it's in the health or

587
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:14,240
whether it's in their local community, whether it's in the governing bodies.

588
00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:18,880
And sometimes I feel like young people get discouraged when they want to make a difference.

589
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,520
I feel like the only way to do that is to kind of be a volunteer or really get a low,

590
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,800
you know, a low wage, that it's not, it's a sacrifice.

591
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:32,720
And I found my way in education, which is historically one of the lowest paying professions,

592
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:37,600
right? Unfortunately, and I think unfairly so, because teachers to me are heroes and

593
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,120
should be recognized much better.

594
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:44,640
But I found a way to, you know, not become rich, but at least have, you know, a middle

595
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,800
class life and be able to support my kids through their education.

596
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:56,000
And they're both, I'm very proud of them now thriving because I felt passionate about

597
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,600
a topic and I pursued learning the most I could about it.

598
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,560
I invested a lot in getting my own skills, but then also I had great mentors.

599
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,240
I had great supervisors, I had great colleagues.

600
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:14,000
And so I think that I'm very grateful, let's say, to the opportunities that I was given

601
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,040
by many, many women and men who went before me.

602
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,960
And I just wanted to do the same to support others.

603
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:27,280
And I, you know, I reach what, like 100 students per year through my classes at Harvard.

604
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,680
But I, you know, I think this book will allow me to share that with even more, many more.

605
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:31,840
So.

606
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,800
And before I forget, where can people find your book?

607
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:37,280
Oh, everywhere.

608
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:45,200
You know, all the major online sellers, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Bookshop.org, Tertullia,

609
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,080
they all have it.

610
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,680
And I'm happy to say that some of them have run out of stock.

611
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:51,120
And so hopefully they reorder.

612
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,120
And hopefully your local bookstores too, you know, ask around.

613
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,560
Many libraries are getting it.

614
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,400
I was just at the New York Public Library and they have a copy there.

615
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,480
So they're making it accessible.

616
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:05,840
So I'm excited.

617
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:06,800
How does that make you feel?

618
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,240
Your books in the New York Public Library.

619
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:10,240
Amazing.

620
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:11,760
It was so beautiful to be there.

621
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,000
It's a wonderful space.

622
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,080
And they were very generous in hosting a conversation around the book.

623
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,760
And I was very impressed with the sort of, you know, we had these young professionals,

624
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,720
but we also had some students from middle school ask a question.

625
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:26,000
How can she already prepare?

626
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:26,880
I was like shocked.

627
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,840
At middle school, you're already fighting to change the world and thinking, what skills

628
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:32,320
do you need?

629
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,760
Wow, you're ahead of the game.

630
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:35,040
I say we need more people like her.

631
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,160
So Let's Change the World isn't a business book, but you mentioned a moment ago, it does

632
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:41,280
have some career tips in it.

633
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,360
Would you share a few of those?

634
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,080
And your father had what I think is some exceptionally wise advice for you.

635
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:47,120
And would you share that also?

636
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:49,040
Yes.

637
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:55,920
So yeah, that's one of my biggest, I think, lessons from my dad.

638
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,880
I have many, but career wise, that is one of them.

639
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,720
Early on in my career, I mentioned I was working at RTI.

640
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,520
It was the first time I learned about international development.

641
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,080
And not only that, but the first time I had the opportunity to travel to Africa, to the

642
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,960
Middle East, to other countries in South America, and to see sort of international development

643
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:15,760
in action.

644
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:21,040
And imagine telling my Venezuelan parents that I was going to go to Tanzania and Ethiopia.

645
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,040
They thought I was crazy that, you know, like, you're from a developing country, and you're

646
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,040
going to go to Africa, you know.

647
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:35,600
And I had the best time learning and engaging with people who are so caring in those countries.

648
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:41,760
And I would just be on a continued high of excitement and, you know, in that zone that,

649
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,280
you know, they say is where you're at your best, where you're challenged, but you can

650
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,120
also, you know, you're in flow.

651
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:52,400
And at one point, after probably a year and a half, I got assigned something that I wasn't

652
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:53,440
so excited about.

653
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,400
And I don't recall exactly what it was, but I do recall calling my father and, you know,

654
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,120
in a regular conversation, and he said, how's work going?

655
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,880
And I go, I'm not so great right now.

656
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:03,520
I don't know.

657
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,200
You know, I don't know if this is the right thing for me.

658
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,240
And his answer was, Emiliano, what do you think?

659
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:09,760
You know, that it's always going to be fun.

660
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:10,640
Like, it is work.

661
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,320
What do you think they pay you?

662
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:17,200
And so I realized that they were paying me, and I was having all this fun, and I was traveling

663
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,520
in the world, and I was still getting a salary.

664
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:26,400
But at the same time, I made the decision myself based on that comment that, okay, they

665
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,200
pay me, and it should not be fun all of the time, but it has to be fun most of the time.

666
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,840
And so I sort of back up the envelope rule of thumb.

667
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:43,200
If a job for me is not exciting and rewarding more than 70% of the time, or at least 70%

668
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:49,040
of the time, then, you know, I really think a lot about whether it's time to move.

669
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,720
So I recommend to others to do the same.

670
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:55,360
Like, you know, there's always in every job going to be about 30%, or, you know, maybe

671
00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:00,160
it's slightly less of work that's bureaucratic, that's boring, that's required, or meetings

672
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,040
that you really wish you needed to attend.

673
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,600
That doesn't happen, of course, at Harvard.

674
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:06,240
Of course not.

675
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:15,120
But yeah, but, you know, if it's a manageable proportion of your time, then enjoy the rest

676
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:15,600
of your time.

677
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:16,720
You're doing meaningful work.

678
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:18,800
In fact, the work stay there, thrive.

679
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,240
And that's what my experience, when it's just not a great part of my job, and when

680
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:30,320
sort of the hassles of doing the work don't exceed 30% of the time, and 70% is enjoyable

681
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,120
and exciting, then it's the right fit.

682
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,120
And that's an advice for young people.

683
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:40,400
The other advice that I really highly recommend is to network, and network not with an agenda.

684
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,440
I always say, like, I've met so many interesting people just because I love learning from others.

685
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:51,600
And then those interesting people in certain moments in my career have offered a job or

686
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,520
have helped me find the next stage of my job.

687
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,680
You know, I never expected to go to Brookings.

688
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:02,480
And it turns out that right when I was at that point at the IDB where I was like, OK,

689
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,560
my job is not enjoyable 30% of the time, that chair has dropped.

690
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,320
I am not happy right now.

691
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,920
I got invited by the then director of the center for breakfast, and we had known each

692
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,560
other for years and never really had many events together, et cetera.

693
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,880
But she said, you know, I'm looking to have a co-director.

694
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:22,160
Would you consider this?

695
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:23,760
And it was the right time for me.

696
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,480
And it just came, you know, because I had, you know, networked enough.

697
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,400
So I highly recommend networking, especially early on.

698
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,560
And young people always ask, how do I do that?

699
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:39,600
Especially from different cultures where it's not as common to reach to more senior people.

700
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,960
And I always say, like, remember, people like talking about themselves.

701
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,240
So just ask them about themselves, and they'll go on and on for free.

702
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:49,360
That's great.

703
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,440
That's great advice and very true.

704
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,280
Are there specific geographic regions or sectors such as education, health care, or economic

705
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,720
development where career opportunities are growing fastest within these organizations?

706
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,160
I think in two areas, very clearly.

707
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,000
One has to do with climate change.

708
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:16,160
So anyone who is learning about how to mitigate the impact of climate change is going to have

709
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,360
lots of opportunities in many of these organizations.

710
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:25,360
Like I said, a lot of, you know, just to name one big philanthropy that's solely

711
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:27,440
focused on that is the Bezos Fund.

712
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,440
But a lot of these organizations are really focused on that.

713
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:40,400
The other one has to do with everything related to data science and AI.

714
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,680
So we have, you know, worldwide more and more data.

715
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,960
We have more and more tech tools, and they're evolving faster and faster.

716
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:55,440
And so the more we can get people who know how to use AI effectively to solve some of

717
00:49:55,440 --> 00:50:02,000
these challenges, to automate some processes that maybe can help countries develop faster,

718
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,120
et cetera, I think those are two areas that definitely have a lot of room.

719
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:11,680
And I have to say economics tends to be also an area that continues to prevail in especially

720
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,800
the funder type of institutions.

721
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:20,640
And the reason is that I think economists really at its best, it's a science that is

722
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:26,240
about how people behave when they're exposed to different situations, whether it's the

723
00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:27,680
price of something changes.

724
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:29,600
Do you buy more or do you buy less?

725
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:34,400
Whether it's that the quality of something improves, do you move to that part or you

726
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:35,200
don't?

727
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:41,840
And so we study those responses that are very real and that are, we believe, reflective

728
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,000
of people's own good judgment.

729
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:49,120
But that in the aggregate, if we understand them better, we can design policies that get

730
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,120
people to do the right things for themselves and that will help their countries prosper.

731
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,720
So it's an exciting social science.

732
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,920
We've got just about two minutes left.

733
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,200
Can you take us into our conversation with a device or story that helps your audience

734
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,600
feel more positive or resilient and become more empowered?

735
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:12,320
Yeah, I think, you know, I would say do everything you can to learn.

736
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,440
You know, learning is infinite.

737
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,600
The more you know, the more you realize you don't know.

738
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,000
And that's true for everyone.

739
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:26,800
You know, one early advice I got from my mentor and advisor at Harvard when I took over his

740
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:32,080
course when he was on sabbatical and I was a grad student, he told me, you know, you're

741
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,040
not going to know all the answers and you shouldn't pretend that you do.

742
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,320
What people really want to hear is that you care.

743
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:42,400
So feel free to tell a student that you don't have the answer right now, but you'll get

744
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:42,880
back to them.

745
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:44,400
And then don't forget to get back to them.

746
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,200
So those would be my two messages, like learn and learn, but also recognize that nobody

747
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:54,400
knows everything and also care, care about yourself, care about others, show that you

748
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:54,720
care.

749
00:51:54,800 --> 00:52:02,880
I love the line that Maya Angelou, I believe, said that when you're dead, no one will remember

750
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,240
what you said or what you did, but they will remember how you make them feel.

751
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:12,400
And so I try to be that professor that, you know, recognizes that I don't know everything

752
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:18,880
and that writer that exposed a lot of my weaknesses and doubts in that book in order to get people

753
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:19,680
to feel OK.

754
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:20,960
You know, it's OK not to.

755
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:28,560
And really, I have been I have been I don't say successful because that's not the word.

756
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:34,320
I think I've been able to have impact on a very rewarding career because while I had

757
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:38,800
those sort of technical skills, I really fundamentally cared about the work and the people that it

758
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,520
would improve lives for.

759
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:48,240
And so I think that that allowed me to shine and I hope others will will do the same.

760
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,520
Emiliana Vegas, author of Let's Change the World.

761
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:53,040
Thank you so much for being with us today.

762
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:55,200
Thank you for having me, Chris.

763
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:56,400
It's been a real treat.

764
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:57,520
It was a real pleasure and honor.

765
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:58,240
Thank you.

766
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:01,760
And thank you to our audience, which now includes people in over 50 countries for joining us

767
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,760
for another episode of Next Steps Forward.

768
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:04,560
I'm Chris Meek.

769
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:09,040
For more details and upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at facebook.com

770
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:13,680
forward slash Chris Meek public figure and an ex at Chris Meek underscore USA.

771
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:14,960
We'll be back next Tuesday.

772
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:20,000
Tuesday, same time, same place with another leader from the world of business, politics,

773
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,000
public policy, sports, entertainment.

774
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,360
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

775
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,040
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.

776
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:37,360
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m.

777
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,200
Pacific Time and 1 p.m.

778
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,040
Eastern Time on The Voice America Empowerment Channel.

779
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,120
This week, make things happen in your life.