Little Victories w/ Jason Gay

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello.

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You've tuned to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.

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As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

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Our focus is on personal empowerment, commitment to wellbeing, and the motivation to achieve

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more than you ever thought possible.

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To that end, we have another outstanding guest with us today.

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Jason Gay is the Wall Street Journal's sports columnist.

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In 2024, Jason's sports column was awarded first place by the National Society of Newspaper

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Columnists.

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He was named Sports Columnist of the Year by the Society of Professional Journalists

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in 2010, 2016, and 2019.

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You couldn't get a three-peat in there somewhere?

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He's the author of the essay book, I Wouldn't Do That If I Were Me, Modern Blunders and

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Modest Triumphs But Mostly Blunders, published in 2022, and his 2015 bestseller, Little Victories,

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Rules for Imperfect Living, was a finalist for the Thurber Prize for American Humor.

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Jason Gay, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Thank you very much for having me.

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My pleasure.

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So Jason, I've been in financial services for 25 years.

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I hate to admit that because that just means I'm an old man, but yours is always the first

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article I read in the journal every day when I open it up, so thank you for the work that

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you do.

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It just sort of starts my day off with a cup of coffee and the right note, so thank you

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for all that.

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Well, I appreciate that.

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I feel like I'm one of those munchkin donuts before you get to the serious stuff, you know?

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Maybe it helps us absorb some of that serious stuff, so I appreciate the work you do.

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And again, Jason, so many people know you from your work at The Wall Street Journal,

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but let's start at the start.

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How'd you decide you wanted to be a writer, and what was the path that led you to your

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current job?

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And have you been a sports columnist your entire career?

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Well, I was not a sports columnist my entire career.

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I had an interest in newspapering going back until I was young.

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I delivered the newspaper, I grew up in a home where the newspaper was front and center

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on the kitchen table every morning.

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I had an unsuccessful paper route.

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And it's just sort of part of my life, and I grew up in Boston in the late 70s and early

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80s, when it was sort of a high watermark, Boston Globe, which was a really tremendous

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sports section at the time, still is.

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And it was just, you know, much in the same way that I guess people listen to music and

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they sort of, you know, unconsciously get influenced in terms of, you know, musical

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taste.

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I just developed a fascination with sports writing, but I didn't, you know, that was

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not the path that I set myself out on initially.

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In fact, my first job at newspapers, I was selling advertising.

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It was a job that a friend of mine had quit.

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And I thought, well, that sounds like a reasonable job for a college graduate to have, selling

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advertising at a newspaper.

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Fortunate or unfortunate for me, I was rather terrible at being a salesperson.

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You know, this was the old days of like, you know, cold calling people and asking if they

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wanted to buy advertising, and I was no good at it.

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And I think they just said, well, if this donkey can't sell an ad, well, maybe he can

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cover high school football.

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And really, that's where it started, started covering sports there.

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But then after, you know, that initial newspaper migrated into a whole bunch of things, you

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know, I covered politics, I covered social issues, covered the drug war, you know, a

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whole bunch of things that not in every case was something that I really wanted to do.

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But in retrospect, was really about experience in terms of just getting myself out there

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and learning.

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Running for the Wall Street Journal is a plum job, no offense.

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How'd you land there?

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You know, the paper was going through an overhaul in the beginning of the prior decade.

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So I want to say like 2009, 2010, they were adding a lot of, let's say, like sort of off

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core stuff.

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So you know, obviously, the great tradition, there's just still a robust tradition of the

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Journalist Financial News Coverage.

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Well, they wanted to make sure that the journal, you know, had audience beyond that.

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And so they were hiring people to cover the arts, hiring people to cover lifestyle, fashion.

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Sports was in that category, too.

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And so I was part of that initial wave of people who came in to write about sports.

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And honestly, it was a wonderful environment to start because, you know, no one was coming

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to us.

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No one picks up the Wall Street Journal, at least not for sure, fantasy football team,

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based upon what these donkeys have to say.

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They were really, we had a lot of latitude to try and to fail and to fail again.

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And we found ourselves, you know, riding in the wake of really, really talented reporters

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doing really serious stuff in finance and politics and beyond.

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It's just a very enviable slot, very fortunate for us because we were able to figure out

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who we were and just, you know, without the pressure of having to make it work right away.

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And that's probably very good timing, given the fact that the financial crisis was just

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sort of on the tail end of it there.

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And so people were still looking for the journal, to your point, for that deep, robust financial

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news.

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And so being able to have something to kind of break the ice a little bit as opposed to

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the sky is falling was probably a good time for you guys to jumpstart that.

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I think that's true.

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I mean, look, newspapers, as we both know, are many things, you know, and they can be

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a totally separate thing for one reader than they are for the other.

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You know, no two readers have this exact same taste and reading habits.

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People read back to front.

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People read from the middle, you know, print, digital, laptop, phone, you know, that evolution

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continues.

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But you don't have to be one specific thing always.

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And your writing style is known for its humor and relatability, which are often two of the

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most difficult things to achieve as a writer.

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What are your secrets to pulling off that magic?

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Oh, gosh, I mean, I wish I could tell you it's like a conscious act of like trying to

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be a certain way.

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The truth of the matter is, I just try to be myself and I like to think of myself as

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somebody who sees the sillier side of things and sees things through a comedic lens, oftentimes.

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You know, humor is not always successful.

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I'm perfectly capable of making a terrible joke, as I am a good joke.

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But I think that sports has this incredible palette because it's a world full of very

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self-important, serious people that's not really actually high stakes and consequential.

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You know, at the end of the day, we're talking about shorts and basketballs and footballs

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and, you know, like men and women playing games of our youth.

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And it is supposed to be fun.

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It is supposed to be entertainment.

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And I try to lean into that as much as possible.

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And how do you, and did you hone your craft, especially your sense of humor?

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You know, were you the class clown growing up?

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Do you come from a family that valued humor or had members that were just plain funny?

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You know, my dad was a very serious person.

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So I think maybe, you know, in the great tradition of children rebelling against their parents,

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you know, that might have been my excuse for trying to be funny, is that my dad was quite

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a serious person.

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I don't think my mother, my mother is, you know, lovely, but, you know, I don't think

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she's like a joke teller necessarily.

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And you know, I was what I was, you know, I was not the world's greatest athlete.

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I was not the world's greatest student.

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I don't know if I was the class clown always.

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I tended to be just the guy who was like scraping by.

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That's how I think of myself academically.

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The left hand bumper sticker, the guy scraping by?

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Yes, exactly.

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So obviously you have a huge national and international readership of the journal, and

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that's a huge responsibility and not a small amount of pressure for any writer.

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How do you balance being entertaining while still delivering meaningful analysis?

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I try not to think about the thing that you described, you know, the sort of size of the

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audience and, you know, the quote unquote, like responsibility that comes with that.

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Obviously I feel a great responsibility to be fair and accurate.

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That's the most important thing, you know, for any journalist.

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But in terms of like, if I sat around and I worried about pleasing everybody every time

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or making everybody laugh, I would just, I wouldn't be able to get out of bed.

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It would be too nerve wracking.

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So I focus on what makes me entertained, and that's my compass for better and for worse.

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If I find it entertaining, if I find it funny, that's the direction that I lean and I keep

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my own counsel that way.

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You know, obviously I have editors who are incredibly helpful in terms of running ideas

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past, saving me from myself, correcting things, fixing my mangled grammar, which is not infrequent.

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But, you know, I try not to think of the many people who are reading the paper, because

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again, I really freak out.

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I mean, when I started at the Journal, I was not a journal reader.

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I didn't grow up in a home that got the Wall Street Journal.

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I thought of it as a very serious, sober publication.

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I think had I known what a big deal it is, it would have paralyzed me.

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So I feel grateful actually to have that ignorance.

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I just kind of jumped off the cliff.

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One of the bigger stories you've written recently, and one of my favorites, was on the Luka Doncic

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Anthony Davis trade.

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The dust has yet to settle on that.

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I mean, I read your article, but, you know, two guys talking here, what are your thoughts?

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I mean, it's stunning.

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You know, I don't think it's settled in for anybody, including the people who are traded

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in it.

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Doncic gave his press conference in Los Angeles today, and he said he basically has been like

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absorbing this over the last 48 hours, as we all have.

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I mean, this went beyond just being surprised.

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This was such an incredulous reaction that the first wave of response to it was, oh,

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this must be a hack.

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This must be some sort of hoax.

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There's no way this is actually true.

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That goes to show you the level to which people did not believe it.

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The NBA has a pretty robust world now of trademongering and discussing the coulda, woulda, shouldas,

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and for something to sort of fall into their lap without anyone having any speculation

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about it is really unusual.

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I remember my son showing me in the morning whatever guy reported it, and I'm like, is

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that a reliable source?

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He's like, no, he's the guy.

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I'm like, okay, that's a big deal.

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So I turn the TV on, and there's Stephen A. Smith doing his thing.

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So traditional media has been rocked by so many changes in recent years.

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How has the role of a sports columnist evolved in the age of social media and instant reactions,

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and how has it remained unchanged?

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Well, let me deal with the unchanged part of it, which is that the incredible privilege

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you get in this job is to be able to build a relationship with an audience.

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I think that was true when the first sports columnist came along, to the people who did

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it in the sort of peak of the newspaper era, when you had morning papers and afternoon

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papers, to what you have today, which is in many ways just as powerful a media ecosystem,

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but obviously stratified in many different ways.

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You have the ability to connect with people because you're in their lives rather frequently.

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Most of us are writing one, two, three, if not more times a week.

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For better or for worse, people get to know you, and you're not always on your best.

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And when you succeed, hopefully they'll let you know that, too.

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But you have the ability to connect with people, and optimally what you go for is people are

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reading you for you.

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Obviously there are some stories, like Luka Tanchic's Getting Traded, that are just so

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irresistible people are going to want to read it no matter what.

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But hopefully people are coming to you and will ride along with you just because they

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have a relationship to your byline, to your sensibility.

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In terms of the way the job has changed, there are fewer of us.

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You go to a sporting event, the Super Bowl coming up, and I think there are probably

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half as many sports columnists at newspapers at the Super Bowl than there were when I went

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to my first one 15 or so years ago.

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I just think that that attrition is very real.

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There's much more of a digital influence, there's much more of a focus on the social

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media aspect of it, the audio, the video componentry.

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There's less of an economy of people who are focusing on words.

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I like to think of it as like making some homemade canoes for a small but discriminating

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audience of people who still want old wooden canoes, and there's nothing wrong with that.

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I like this idea.

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There's always going to be a core audience of people who care about the way sentences

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are arranged and the way that words make them feel, and they aren't just looking for the

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kind of like quick hit type of news flash that you get on social media.

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And I want to give them that as much as I can.

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Sports and sports writing aren't always about winning game moments and joyous celebrations.

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How do you approach writing about sensitive topics such as scandals or controversies,

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or even as the old ABC sports announcer used to describe it, every weekend, the agony of

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defeat?

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And when you write about those topics, does it negatively affect your relationships with

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sources?

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I mean, again, if you put a premium on being fair and accurate, I think that you can maintain

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almost any relationship.

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I think that it's when you sort of go far afield and you are not presenting things accurately

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or fairly, that's when you run into trouble.

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You have to go back to something I said before about like, you know, sports having a lot

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of seriousness, but the stakes being lower.

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I mean, that's also true of winning and losing.

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You know, somebody's going to win the Super Bowl this weekend.

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Someone's going to lose the Super Bowl this weekend.

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It's not the end of the...

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Do you want me to say that?

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I'm sorry.

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Is that okay?

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Because I know we're going to run.

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Okay.

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Totally fine.

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I mean, you know, someone's going to win this Super Bowl.

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Someone's going to lose the Super Bowl.

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It's going to be uplifting for whoever wins it.

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It's going to be briefly emotionally devastating for the people who lose.

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It's not the end of their lives.

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It's not the kind of like emotional carnage that true suffering brings.

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So like in that, you get to sort of like...

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What sports gives you is this kind of like quick hit of jubilation, of sorrow, but not

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with the kind of lingering after effects that, you know, and I know there are some fans like

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Minnesota Vikings fans would probably disagree with this, but like not with the sort of lingering

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generational after effects of, you know, true pain.

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Two part question.

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If you could interview one living athlete that you haven't yet, who would it be and

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00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:02,280
why?

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And then second, what interview do you wish you could have done with someone who's no

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longer alive and why would it be that person?

252
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Oh, that's great.

253
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:17,280
I would say that I would love to talk to Rafael Nadal, who I have talked to like in casual

254
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,960
arrangements but never sort of done a quick, a substantive one-on-one.

255
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He's one of my favorite athletes that I've covered.

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He just retired.

257
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He had this magnificent career.

258
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I don't think we're going to see a tennis player quite like him again.

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I'd love to be able to sit and ask him a bunch of questions.

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Somebody who I didn't get to, I mean, Bill Russell comes to mind.

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He was somebody who I've done a lot of reading of what he's written in his life.

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He was a remarkable person as both an athlete and as a character in activism and just led

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an astonishing life of success and standing up for things.

264
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I would love to be able to talk to him.

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What's your favorite sporting event as a fan or to cover as a professional and why?

266
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Oh, I like the tennis.

267
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I mean, I grew up with it.

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My father was a high school tennis coach in Massachusetts.

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So I grew up around public tennis courts and just going there and hitting balls for hours

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and hours.

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My father and I had these traditions of watching breakfast at Wimbledon, 9 o'clock in the morning,

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Bud Collins in his crazy Technicolor pants and John McEnroe, Bjorn Borg and all that

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sort of glory time of the sport.

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And so to be able to walk into these cathedrals like CentreCourt, like Roland Garros in Paris,

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it feels like a remarkable privilege.

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I mean, just to be that, the first time I did it, I felt almost emotionally overcome

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because you kind of can't believe that it exists.

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It's something you've viewed through the prism of television your entire life and to finally

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get to it and see it in the flesh, and it actually not just lives up to what your expectation

280
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is, but surpasses it.

281
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I mean, a place like CentreCourt, one thing that's really astonishing about it is it seats

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about 14,000 people.

283
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It feels like it's about a third the size of an American stadium that seats that many

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people.

285
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It is very, very compact and intimate and wonderful in that way.

286
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And then you have this organic surface of green grass that they're playing on that plays

287
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differently hour to hour, weather to weather and day to day.

288
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When you and I first connected last summer, you're like, sorry, Chris, I can't chat.

289
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I'm in Paris covering the Olympics.

290
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And I'm like, yeah, of course you are.

291
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What else are you supposed to be doing right now?

292
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So I was a little envious when you sent that back to me.

293
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,080
And Jason, you're a sports fan at heart.

294
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How do you keep that passion alive while covering sports as a job and does it ever become drudgery

295
00:18:54,460 --> 00:18:57,740
because it is your job?

296
00:18:57,740 --> 00:19:04,540
I like this question because I am happily surprised by this too, that it does not feel

297
00:19:04,540 --> 00:19:10,260
like drudgery to me, that sports is something where the skin shedding happens on such a

298
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frequent basis that it feels different every time.

299
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You know, you go back to an Olympic Games, you go back to a Super Bowl, you go back to

300
00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:23,460
a Wimbledon and you think, well, maybe this is the one where I'm like, enough is enough

301
00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:24,460
with this.

302
00:19:24,460 --> 00:19:28,460
And this is not to say that there are things that I like less than others, I mean, definitely.

303
00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:34,900
But the characters change, the conditions change, the moment in the culture changes.

304
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:38,060
You know, like, think about something like college sports, the way that we talk and think

305
00:19:38,060 --> 00:19:43,420
and act about college sports in 2025, as opposed to what we thought about it as little as 10

306
00:19:43,420 --> 00:19:46,380
years ago, the professionalization that's happened in college sports.

307
00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:51,380
So there's always this dynamism in sports, which makes it really compelling, a topic

308
00:19:51,380 --> 00:19:52,380
to cover.

309
00:19:52,380 --> 00:19:59,380
And I also feel like, frankly, as a reporter, it's cheating, because the audience is almost

310
00:19:59,380 --> 00:20:02,580
always meeting you halfway, because they have some skin in the game.

311
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It's either a team they like, a sport they like, a sport they don't like, a team they

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don't like.

313
00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:12,140
They're really meeting you halfway, and they're engaged at a level that is much harder for

314
00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:14,980
somebody who covers a more esoteric topic.

315
00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:17,660
You know, imagine covering the bond market or something like that.

316
00:20:17,660 --> 00:20:20,860
Obviously, there are some people who care a great deal about bonds, but it's not the

317
00:20:20,860 --> 00:20:25,820
same as covering, like, you know, I don't know, the NBA All-Star Game.

318
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It's a different challenge.

319
00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:31,180
And I think it's much harder for somebody who's doing that than someone who's covering

320
00:20:31,180 --> 00:20:32,180
basketball.

321
00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:35,940
I should have asked this at the beginning of the show, because you mentioned growing

322
00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:37,220
up in Massachusetts.

323
00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:39,100
You mentioned Boston Globe.

324
00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:43,540
You mentioned watching tennis with your dad in Massachusetts as a coach.

325
00:20:43,540 --> 00:20:44,540
Red Sox or Yankees?

326
00:20:44,540 --> 00:20:47,700
Oh, definitely the Red Sox.

327
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:49,580
And I said, classic.

328
00:20:49,580 --> 00:20:50,580
I'm sorry.

329
00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:52,300
The show's over.

330
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:56,620
Well, you definitely had the better of us in that era.

331
00:20:56,620 --> 00:21:04,100
I mean, I'm of the vintage of sports fan in Boston, where misery was sort of the job description.

332
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:14,220
This whole evolution of the Red Sox as a championship-winning franchise, these kids who are growing up,

333
00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:19,980
they have repetitive stress injuries from so many parades where they've been applauding

334
00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:20,980
at.

335
00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:25,420
You know, the winning and winning and winning, that was not the childhood that I knew.

336
00:21:25,420 --> 00:21:27,740
The Celtics won a little bit, but that was really it.

337
00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:29,500
The Patriots were miserable.

338
00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:34,300
The Red Sox broke your heart almost on an hourly basis.

339
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:37,260
That's character building, you know?

340
00:21:37,260 --> 00:21:42,660
And it definitely makes sense how you can feel, how this can be sort of part of your

341
00:21:42,660 --> 00:21:45,820
emotional connective tissue.

342
00:21:45,820 --> 00:21:49,260
How do you choose your column's topics, and are your decisions mainly driven by the latest

343
00:21:49,260 --> 00:21:51,100
events in the sports world?

344
00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:54,700
It's a combination of things.

345
00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:59,180
I mean, yes, primarily it's dictated by the schedule.

346
00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:01,900
You know, I'm writing about football because it's football season.

347
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:05,140
Once the football season ends, we're probably going to turn away from that and focus on

348
00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:06,140
other things.

349
00:22:06,140 --> 00:22:11,140
But I try to do things that are a little offbeat on occasion because, you know, you want to

350
00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:12,140
surprise readers.

351
00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:14,940
You don't want people to feel like they're just getting the same old, same old.

352
00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:18,860
You want to diversify yourself from the competition.

353
00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:23,180
You want to feel a little bit different from them, either in subject matter or tone or

354
00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:24,180
approach.

355
00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:30,100
And, you know, I have good editors and colleagues that I can go to and say, like, I'm thinking

356
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:31,380
about this, this, this.

357
00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:32,940
Which one do you like the best?

358
00:22:32,940 --> 00:22:38,220
Or, you know, I'm up against—that I can't think of anything.

359
00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:42,060
And it's like, there are times like, you know, two o'clock in the afternoon, I have to write

360
00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:43,060
a column that night.

361
00:22:43,060 --> 00:22:44,060
I don't know what I'm going to do.

362
00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:47,020
And then something just happens, and you get really lucky.

363
00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:49,940
And I like that sort of adrenaline, actually.

364
00:22:49,940 --> 00:22:54,260
And how do you prepare for interviews with athletes, coaches, or other sports figures?

365
00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:57,660
And how do you prepare for people who are known to be difficult interview subjects?

366
00:22:57,660 --> 00:22:59,660
Or do you just avoid those people altogether?

367
00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:07,260
I, you know, don't avoid a subject because of that.

368
00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:15,100
I mean, my, you know, regimen is to try to read everything that's ever been written about

369
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:19,340
somebody that I'm going to go see, you know, for better and for worse.

370
00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:20,340
Everything.

371
00:23:20,340 --> 00:23:23,900
Because I want to get a sense of how they speak, how they speak on certain topics, what

372
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,380
topics they're asked about all the time.

373
00:23:26,380 --> 00:23:30,940
I want to get a sense of when they go on autopilot, and they start giving me an answer they've

374
00:23:30,940 --> 00:23:35,700
given a hundred times, I want to know, because I want to be able to shift the conversation,

375
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:40,260
make them, you know, think a little differently, and make things that they hadn't said.

376
00:23:41,260 --> 00:23:45,860
And I don't mean that in a negative way, I just mean, like, in a way that, like, for

377
00:23:45,860 --> 00:23:49,500
a reader, they're like, oh, well, Roger Federer's been interviewed a thousand times, like, why

378
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:51,100
should I read another interview with him?

379
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:54,020
He's just going to say the same thing he always says.

380
00:23:54,020 --> 00:24:01,260
Obviously, some subjects are better than others in terms of being, you know, real character-worthy.

381
00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:05,860
But you know, it starts with that sort of research of knowing what they are good at

382
00:24:05,860 --> 00:24:08,580
talking about, what they've talked about a lot.

383
00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:13,300
And then also, it sort of helps build a little rapport, because if they have a sense that

384
00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:17,140
you've done your homework going into it, I think there's a certain, you know, base level

385
00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:19,180
respect that starts, which is good.

386
00:24:19,180 --> 00:24:25,380
Who have been your most challenging interviews, and who are the most fun, memorable, or gratifying?

387
00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:35,780
You know, I think that the most gratifying interviews are always people who are not in

388
00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:36,780
the public eye.

389
00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:40,100
And, like, giving them the opportunity to tell their story in a forum like the Wall

390
00:24:40,100 --> 00:24:47,180
Street Journal is the best, because, you know, usually those kinds of stories I'm telling

391
00:24:47,180 --> 00:24:51,540
are stories of people who have done extraordinary things, who have overcome great odds.

392
00:24:51,540 --> 00:24:56,620
You know, I think about a story I wrote last year about a college lacrosse player who was

393
00:24:56,620 --> 00:25:00,100
really the first Division I athlete to ever come back from a heart transplant, which is

394
00:25:00,260 --> 00:25:06,780
just shocking to say out loud, but a lacrosse player playing big time in Division II, college

395
00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:10,460
lacrosse, playing with a transplanted heart.

396
00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:14,820
He had never told his story in that kind of situation, that kind of forum, and, you know,

397
00:25:14,820 --> 00:25:18,900
to see the reaction to that and the outreach that he got after that, that's what this thing

398
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:24,020
is all about, you know, not, like, sort of varnishing the people who are already famous.

399
00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:30,220
In terms of people who are the most difficult, I mean, you know, I think of difficulty more

400
00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:35,700
along the lines of, like, people who are just giving you kind of bland, vanilla answers

401
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:38,220
as opposed to being confrontational.

402
00:25:38,220 --> 00:25:39,220
Confrontational's good.

403
00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:43,540
You know, somebody who is, you know, got to be in their bonnet about something and wants

404
00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:47,380
to be agitated at you, I don't mind that one bit, especially if you feel like you're being

405
00:25:47,380 --> 00:25:48,380
fair.

406
00:25:48,380 --> 00:25:53,820
It's the people who are just kind of giving you the blah, bland stuff, and golly, I mean,

407
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:59,300
that's almost every press conference you go to nowadays, they're so shrewd about staying

408
00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:03,620
on message and not saying things that are going to get them into any kind of trouble,

409
00:26:03,620 --> 00:26:05,620
so that's challenging.

410
00:26:05,620 --> 00:26:11,580
Well, it's like politics, you answer the question you want to answer.

411
00:26:11,580 --> 00:26:15,340
That's a very good piece of advice.

412
00:26:15,340 --> 00:26:19,820
If you could go back and redo one interview, which one would it be, what would you change,

413
00:26:19,820 --> 00:26:20,820
and why?

414
00:26:21,820 --> 00:26:24,220
Oh, I would go back and redo all of them.

415
00:26:24,220 --> 00:26:32,740
I mean, I always see things that I missed, I don't like reading stuff that I do because

416
00:26:32,740 --> 00:26:36,700
I see only the mistakes and the holes and the opportunities lost.

417
00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:39,540
So yeah, that's a 100% for me.

418
00:26:39,540 --> 00:26:45,900
I think that everything, I mean, this goes for writing too, that, you know, it just always

419
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:46,900
gets better.

420
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:53,500
The more time you have at it, the more cracks at it you take, you know, you don't have the

421
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:58,780
luxury with a newspaper because you have deadlines, but being able to just sort of endlessly think

422
00:26:58,780 --> 00:27:02,620
about it, or endlessly ask questions of a subject, the story has to come out at a certain

423
00:27:02,620 --> 00:27:03,620
point.

424
00:27:03,620 --> 00:27:06,980
So you don't always have unlimited time, or you don't ever have unlimited time.

425
00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:10,980
But I always see things that I would have done, always, always, always.

426
00:27:10,980 --> 00:27:14,180
And I think that's good.

427
00:27:14,180 --> 00:27:19,300
I think if I was looking at my own work and saying, oh, I never felt that, like, no, I

428
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:21,260
want to be ruthless with myself.

429
00:27:21,260 --> 00:27:22,260
Fair enough.

430
00:27:22,260 --> 00:27:26,980
How do you strike balance between respecting your interview subjects while still asking

431
00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:34,540
those tough, uncomfortable questions?

432
00:27:34,540 --> 00:27:40,580
I think that, you know, to give that you are not kind of coming for their lunch and like

433
00:27:40,580 --> 00:27:47,700
to give them the opportunity to know where you're coming from with a question, you know,

434
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:51,940
so say, if it's an uncomfortable question about like, let's say, your personal life

435
00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:52,940
or something like that.

436
00:27:52,940 --> 00:27:56,940
Now, I'm not going to be the first question I'm going to ask, you know, we're hopefully

437
00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:59,500
going to build up a rapport.

438
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,940
They're probably going to have some sense that this question is coming at some point.

439
00:28:02,940 --> 00:28:09,300
Most people do if there's uncomfortable like areas of their personal story.

440
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:12,260
But people resent more than anything is just sort of being suckered, you know, just being

441
00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:16,060
like, you know, sucker punched with a question.

442
00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:18,060
So I try not to do that.

443
00:28:18,060 --> 00:28:21,460
And again, I don't have the job, you know, I'm a sports columnist, I get to say what

444
00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:22,460
I think.

445
00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:28,860
You know, I don't need, you know, people to tell me what they think in order to put it

446
00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:29,860
out there.

447
00:28:29,860 --> 00:28:31,260
I can have my own opinion about it.

448
00:28:31,260 --> 00:28:34,780
But I want to give them every opportunity to answer and address it for themselves for

449
00:28:34,780 --> 00:28:35,780
sure.

450
00:28:36,380 --> 00:28:40,260
One of my favorite interviews I've done, and my listeners and viewers know I'm a huge,

451
00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:45,380
huge Dallas Cowboys fan, is I had Charles Haley on a couple of years ago.

452
00:28:45,380 --> 00:28:47,900
And as a sports writer, you know, a lot of things are written about Charles in the locker

453
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:52,500
room during his career, which I was going to touch on a bit.

454
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:56,020
But then Charles Haley being Charles Haley, after his career came out, they learned he

455
00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:57,020
was bipolar.

456
00:28:57,020 --> 00:28:58,780
So he addressed that.

457
00:28:58,780 --> 00:29:03,860
And then he actually forgot about the interview because he was at AT&T Stadium in Dallas giving

458
00:29:03,940 --> 00:29:07,420
bikes away as part of the charity work for the Cowboys.

459
00:29:07,420 --> 00:29:10,460
And then also an assistant reminded him, he's like, oh, okay, I forgot about this.

460
00:29:10,460 --> 00:29:13,540
Well, we did the interview live while he's having lunch at a pizza restaurant in Dallas.

461
00:29:13,540 --> 00:29:16,060
And so he's like eating a piece of pizza, the guy's napkin over his chest.

462
00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:17,620
And so that was one of my favorite interviews of all time.

463
00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:19,140
I just wanted to share that.

464
00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:23,900
Jason, earlier you talked about college sports and what, right, can you picture that?

465
00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:24,900
That's Charles Haley, right?

466
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:25,900
Amazing.

467
00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:31,900
So earlier, we're talking briefly, but you touched on college sports and they become

468
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:35,700
pardon the phrase, a whole new ballgame over the past few years.

469
00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:39,620
What's your perspective on name, image, and likeness and the money and big money in some

470
00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:43,780
cases that college athletes are now receiving and has it changed college athletics for the

471
00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:44,780
better or worse?

472
00:29:44,780 --> 00:29:49,460
Well, I think it was inevitable.

473
00:29:49,460 --> 00:29:54,700
I don't think that, you know, you could have a market economy where college coaches were

474
00:29:54,700 --> 00:30:00,340
getting five, six, seven, eight, now $10 million a year.

475
00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:03,540
Schools were reaping hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of television deals or

476
00:30:03,540 --> 00:30:11,140
a billion dollar contracts for college football playoffs, for basketball playoffs, and cut

477
00:30:11,140 --> 00:30:17,260
off one party from economically benefiting, i.e. the students.

478
00:30:17,260 --> 00:30:23,620
The notion of the scholarship being sufficient compensation was increasingly quaint.

479
00:30:23,620 --> 00:30:27,460
And what surprised me was the acceleration that happened here.

480
00:30:27,580 --> 00:30:29,180
We had a couple of things happening at once.

481
00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:38,340
One, the court, both liberal justices, conservative justices, were very, very dubious on the NCAA's

482
00:30:38,340 --> 00:30:43,180
antitrust protections and the notion that it was somehow a cartel, which really was

483
00:30:43,180 --> 00:30:50,540
what they called it when it went up to the Supreme Court, a cartel.

484
00:30:50,540 --> 00:30:52,820
And that set into motion all this.

485
00:30:52,940 --> 00:31:00,020
The problem with NIL and with Transfer Portal and things like that is, you know, once the

486
00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:07,380
brakes came off, so to speak, the NCAA kind of just threw up its hands and said, like,

487
00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:11,380
all right, well, you know, we're just going to let this roll without sort of thinking

488
00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:15,620
about the best way of deploying it.

489
00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:19,620
And that created this Wild West that we're in now.

490
00:31:19,620 --> 00:31:26,060
And you see the NCAA is trying to roll back with some form of settlement that will attempt

491
00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:30,580
to level the playing field by giving actually direct payments to schools through which they

492
00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:34,420
can pay players.

493
00:31:34,420 --> 00:31:39,380
But I think that that, and that's already been signaled, like that creates a whole new

494
00:31:39,380 --> 00:31:45,340
can of worms in terms of, you know, can you actually start compensating athletes without

495
00:31:45,340 --> 00:31:46,900
collective bargaining?

496
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:51,160
Is the figure that's being discussed a sort of a static figure across schools?

497
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,380
Is that tantamount to a salary cap?

498
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:58,020
Is that, you know, an antitrust violation if you don't have any collective bargaining?

499
00:31:58,020 --> 00:32:00,260
You know, is that fair?

500
00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:03,600
The question has become more complex.

501
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,500
And these people who are running athletic departments have never had harder jobs.

502
00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:13,180
College coaches never had a harder job, more complicated job.

503
00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:22,020
However, they started this, like this was, again, they had, there was a fork in the road

504
00:32:22,020 --> 00:32:26,940
moment at one point where they're like, you know, we can continue having college sports

505
00:32:26,940 --> 00:32:30,060
be, you know, scale.

506
00:32:30,060 --> 00:32:33,220
You know, the old days of Bear Bryant, you know, having in his contract that he couldn't

507
00:32:33,220 --> 00:32:39,900
make more than a dollar more than the governor of Alabama or something like that in his contract.

508
00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:45,020
So, you know, it could have gone on that way, but obviously it didn't and he's making

509
00:32:45,020 --> 00:32:49,340
millions of dollars and reaching the point where actually the compensation in college

510
00:32:49,340 --> 00:32:56,100
at times is so bountiful that they're holding off going pro.

511
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:59,300
No matter what anyone thinks about it, NAL has already changed, you know, great upheaval

512
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:02,020
as you mentioned and changed every college sport.

513
00:33:02,020 --> 00:33:05,500
Look in your crystal ball and tell us where you see college sports in five or 10 years

514
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:06,500
from now.

515
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:16,260
For one, I think there'll be some form of unionization that happens in players, but

516
00:33:16,260 --> 00:33:21,220
I think the thing that'll happen before that is you'll have some sort of super league break

517
00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:26,860
away from the sort of quote unquote power five schools that exist in college sports.

518
00:33:26,860 --> 00:33:32,700
So you know, an SEC and a big 10 like splitting away from the rest and creating their own

519
00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:40,060
sort of super league with big television contracts that they keep for themselves.

520
00:33:40,060 --> 00:33:47,140
I think that is quite likely and what will be interesting from there is that do the schools

521
00:33:47,140 --> 00:33:53,420
that get left behind, do they sort of do a recalibration and kind of decaffeinate like

522
00:33:53,420 --> 00:33:56,140
their prioritization of sports?

523
00:33:56,140 --> 00:34:02,300
What's happened here over the last several decades is that everyone has sort of felt

524
00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:05,620
that they cannot ignore these sports or they're getting left behind.

525
00:34:05,620 --> 00:34:10,180
They're going to be left behind in terms of alumni spending, they're going to be left

526
00:34:10,180 --> 00:34:15,140
behind in terms of student interest, they're going to be left behind in terms of just cultural

527
00:34:15,140 --> 00:34:17,500
minds here and they have to, have to, have to do it.

528
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:19,380
Well, I disagree with that slightly.

529
00:34:19,380 --> 00:34:22,500
I think that like there is actual way to go about this.

530
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:25,140
We certainly see the model of division two and division three.

531
00:34:25,140 --> 00:34:31,540
Is there a version of division one sports that can be kind of a little more chillaxed

532
00:34:31,540 --> 00:34:39,900
to use a terrible term and then you kind of have your super league above professional.

533
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:46,940
And the other thing that's really important here is that private equity is already circling

534
00:34:46,940 --> 00:34:51,220
college sports and you're already seeing investments happen in the athletic department.

535
00:34:51,220 --> 00:34:56,860
And once that's happening, you know, you're talking about, you know, money that is very

536
00:34:56,860 --> 00:35:03,060
interested in more money and that is just going to put an inordinate pressure upon creating

537
00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:07,620
these kinds of splits because, you know, it's very easy for someone who's been a lifelong

538
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:12,220
fan of the SEC to say like, oh yeah, we definitely should have Vanderbilt in here.

539
00:35:12,220 --> 00:35:15,420
Vanderbilt's like traditionally been a great, you know, partner of the SEC.

540
00:35:15,420 --> 00:35:18,820
The private equity is going to look at this and be like, what, why, why do we have these

541
00:35:18,820 --> 00:35:19,820
teams?

542
00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:21,220
Like, why don't we just have the good teams?

543
00:35:21,220 --> 00:35:22,380
What are we doing here?

544
00:35:22,380 --> 00:35:25,740
You know, all those collisions are coming.

545
00:35:25,740 --> 00:35:30,940
You know, and I was just going to touch on that a few days after the recent college football

546
00:35:30,940 --> 00:35:35,540
national championship, one of your colleagues wrote an article about if a college football

547
00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:38,540
team were a franchise, like a pro NFL team, what they would be worth.

548
00:35:38,540 --> 00:35:42,620
And obviously with Ohio state just running, they were ranked at, I think 1.8 billion.

549
00:35:42,620 --> 00:35:45,740
Michigan was right behind it, like 1.6, 1.7.

550
00:35:45,740 --> 00:35:50,540
Some familiar names, some shocking names, I was surprised to see Texas A&M in there.

551
00:35:50,540 --> 00:35:55,140
But again, to the point, the concept of private equity investing in an athletic departments

552
00:35:55,140 --> 00:36:00,540
is mind boggling because to your point, that's gobs and gobs of money and that could change

553
00:36:00,540 --> 00:36:01,540
the sport forever.

554
00:36:01,540 --> 00:36:05,460
And then you touched on, you know, if there's a breakaway super conference, to me that sounds

555
00:36:05,460 --> 00:36:07,500
exactly like live golf.

556
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:09,380
The winners win and the losers lose.

557
00:36:09,380 --> 00:36:10,380
Yeah.

558
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:11,380
Yeah.

559
00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:14,860
I don't disagree with any of that.

560
00:36:14,860 --> 00:36:23,900
I do feel like the potential upside, however, is allowing the sort of, I don't want to say

561
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:27,700
also rants because that's unfair to schools, because actually we're seeing more competitiveness

562
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:29,340
within college sports.

563
00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:34,100
You know, the transfer portal has allowed schools that aren't traditional powers to

564
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:43,820
actually, you know, get better quickly, faster, quickly, however, schools that aren't typical

565
00:36:43,820 --> 00:36:50,620
powers athletically to maybe make some hard choices about, you know, focusing on the academic

566
00:36:50,620 --> 00:36:58,380
life and focusing on, you know, returning to a more sane and sober environment of college

567
00:36:58,380 --> 00:37:00,700
sports.

568
00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:02,460
Let's go down another level here.

569
00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:05,980
Little league baseball players aren't getting paid yet.

570
00:37:05,980 --> 00:37:09,100
I got in touch with you last year with my concerns about how one tremendous player who

571
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:12,620
lives in a town near me ended up playing for another team that just happened to be the

572
00:37:12,620 --> 00:37:14,940
defending state champions.

573
00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:17,580
Some people were calling that arrangement a symbol of quote, the free agency era in

574
00:37:17,580 --> 00:37:18,580
youth sports.

575
00:37:18,580 --> 00:37:23,220
I saw it as the ideals of little league baseball, teamwork, sportsmanship, and integrity being

576
00:37:23,220 --> 00:37:26,060
compromised by placing winning above all else.

577
00:37:26,060 --> 00:37:30,020
Do you expect attitudes and rules about kids' sports to change because of the seismic changes

578
00:37:30,020 --> 00:37:31,660
we're seeing in college sports?

579
00:37:31,660 --> 00:37:34,900
Oh, it's already happening.

580
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:35,900
It's already happening.

581
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:36,900
It's here.

582
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:42,540
In some ways it's beyond what college is because it's truly without any kind of guardrails

583
00:37:43,460 --> 00:37:47,780
You know, you're speaking to the father of an eight-year-old who a couple of years ago

584
00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:54,700
had three different soccer teams recruiting her and not by any doing of mine, I was like,

585
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:55,700
what is going on here?

586
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:56,700
She's like an eight-year-old.

587
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:59,100
She'd be happy chasing squirrels.

588
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:00,740
She doesn't care about this stuff.

589
00:38:02,820 --> 00:38:06,020
I mean, you know, it's cuckoo.

590
00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:12,020
And I think what's happened with youth sports, unfortunately, has become like elitist and

591
00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:13,020
predatory.

592
00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:17,260
Elitist in the sense that a lot of these things are quite expensive, you know, you're putting

593
00:38:17,260 --> 00:38:22,260
your child into these programs, these travel teams, things like that.

594
00:38:22,260 --> 00:38:25,860
You're talking about expenditures, sometimes in the thousands of dollars, which for many

595
00:38:25,860 --> 00:38:28,820
families is just an unreasonable expectation.

596
00:38:28,820 --> 00:38:33,620
The second thing is you are basically winnowing the pool.

597
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:39,780
You are like basically saying to people, you have to get good at the age of seven, at the

598
00:38:39,780 --> 00:38:46,500
age of eight, at the age of 12, otherwise you don't have value as an athlete.

599
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:47,740
You can fall behind fast.

600
00:38:47,740 --> 00:38:53,420
And they really prey upon the parent fears that, oh, I'm not doing right by my child

601
00:38:53,420 --> 00:38:58,100
if they're not an X program or having this kind of success at this level.

602
00:38:58,100 --> 00:38:59,300
It's madness.

603
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:04,180
And a lot of it is based around the idea of how college has become increasingly financially

604
00:39:04,180 --> 00:39:05,500
inaccessible to people.

605
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:10,220
There's a lot of folks who think, well, if Johnny or Sarah can get themselves a partial

606
00:39:10,220 --> 00:39:14,100
scholarship to do a certain sport or a certain school, you're going to take some financial

607
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:18,580
pressure off the family.

608
00:39:18,580 --> 00:39:20,700
That's a very rare exceptional case.

609
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:25,660
And candidly, if you want your child to get a leg up getting into school and even getting

610
00:39:25,660 --> 00:39:32,700
financial aid in school, there are a whole other bunch of ways, extracurricular activities

611
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:37,660
that are much more bang for your buck than getting good at a sport.

612
00:39:37,660 --> 00:39:41,140
And it's unfortunate, you talk about the elitism, and when you and I grew up, we're about the

613
00:39:41,140 --> 00:39:42,140
same age.

614
00:39:42,140 --> 00:39:47,020
Kids, you played three sports, one in the fall, one in the winter, and one in the spring.

615
00:39:47,020 --> 00:39:51,460
Now by the time I'm age eight, like your daughter, you're going to get pigeonholed into soccer

616
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:54,180
or basketball or tennis or whatever.

617
00:39:54,180 --> 00:39:56,740
And it's unfortunate because there's more pressure for them.

618
00:39:56,740 --> 00:39:59,060
There's constant pressure to be the best at that sport.

619
00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:03,700
Plus, from a developmental perspective, in different sports, you use different muscles.

620
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:08,100
Some are individual sports, some are team sports, and so you lose some of that camaraderie,

621
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:11,380
if you will, if you're only doing an individual sport like golf or tennis.

622
00:40:11,380 --> 00:40:16,660
And so I agree with you, the area that I live here, not too far from you, it's very much

623
00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:20,620
that focus of you're going to play lacrosse and that's it, and you're going to Duke, and

624
00:40:20,620 --> 00:40:24,340
then you go to Harvard and get a law degree, and then that's it.

625
00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:26,540
So life's been set for them before they were born.

626
00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:28,860
So I totally agree with you on that.

627
00:40:28,860 --> 00:40:29,860
Let's shift gears here.

628
00:40:29,860 --> 00:40:32,020
We've got about seven or eight minutes left.

629
00:40:32,020 --> 00:40:33,020
Let's focus on you.

630
00:40:33,020 --> 00:40:34,020
Yeah.

631
00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:40,700
Let me just add one thing to the viewpoint, which is that what's often getting lost, it's

632
00:40:40,700 --> 00:40:45,740
not surprising that it's getting lost, is what the actual kid wants to do.

633
00:40:45,740 --> 00:40:48,340
And the college coaches all the time, and I ask them the questions that we're talking

634
00:40:48,340 --> 00:40:54,420
about now, and a lot of them say the number one issue they deal with is a high-level recruit

635
00:40:54,420 --> 00:40:55,420
gets to campus.

636
00:40:55,420 --> 00:40:58,340
By the time they get to campus as a freshman, they are toasted.

637
00:40:58,820 --> 00:40:59,820
They are burnt out.

638
00:40:59,820 --> 00:41:05,860
They have spent 12 to 15 years of their life obsessing about a sport for this exact thing,

639
00:41:05,860 --> 00:41:09,460
to be able to get into this high-level college program, and they think they're at the end

640
00:41:09,460 --> 00:41:11,620
of the journey.

641
00:41:11,620 --> 00:41:14,140
And that is just a terrible situation.

642
00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:18,580
You want to leave opportunity available for the late bloomer, for the person who played

643
00:41:18,580 --> 00:41:19,580
another sport.

644
00:41:19,580 --> 00:41:23,140
I guarantee you, you go into a professional locker room of any sport and you ask them

645
00:41:23,140 --> 00:41:26,900
what their favorite sport was when they were eight, nine, ten years old, very often it's

646
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:31,940
a different sport altogether because, as you said, they tried different things.

647
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:35,020
They developed their passion for something.

648
00:41:35,020 --> 00:41:38,340
They played it because they liked it, not because someone said, you've got to do this

649
00:41:38,340 --> 00:41:39,340
now.

650
00:41:39,340 --> 00:41:40,340
That's so unfortunate.

651
00:41:40,340 --> 00:41:44,500
All right, let's have some positive comments here.

652
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:46,620
Let's talk about your books.

653
00:41:46,620 --> 00:41:50,660
I've seen your first book under two titles, Little Victories, Perfect Rules for Imperfect

654
00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:55,140
Living and Little Victories, A Sportswriter's Notes on Winning at Life.

655
00:41:55,140 --> 00:41:58,100
For anyone interested in buying it, which title should they be looking for and where

656
00:41:58,100 --> 00:42:03,300
can they find it?

657
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:07,740
Either one is perfectly acceptable to me, either option.

658
00:42:07,740 --> 00:42:12,820
It's simply a hardcover was the original title that you mentioned, Imperfect God.

659
00:42:12,820 --> 00:42:15,100
The sportswriter is the paperback version.

660
00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:21,900
That's not an uncommon thing that they tweak a little bit when they do the paperback of

661
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:22,900
a book.

662
00:42:23,060 --> 00:42:24,060
That's what happened there.

663
00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:26,340
Nothing more than that.

664
00:42:26,340 --> 00:42:30,340
In there, you wrote, quote, we should probably set aside the goal of total happiness.

665
00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:32,620
There's no such thing, end quote.

666
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:36,160
It's kind of a shock for a guy known for his humor to write that.

667
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:42,940
Would you say that you're actually a closet pessimist or just a realist?

668
00:42:42,940 --> 00:42:43,940
A closet...

669
00:42:43,940 --> 00:42:44,940
Pessimist or realist?

670
00:42:44,940 --> 00:42:45,940
Pessimist, is that what you say?

671
00:42:45,940 --> 00:42:46,940
Yeah, or realist.

672
00:42:46,940 --> 00:42:47,940
Or a closet optimist.

673
00:42:48,940 --> 00:43:01,180
I want to be an optimist and I hope that I'm practical, if not realistic.

674
00:43:01,180 --> 00:43:05,540
At the time when I wrote that, I was talking about a period of my life where my father

675
00:43:05,540 --> 00:43:09,620
had just died and I was grappling with a number of things.

676
00:43:09,620 --> 00:43:14,820
I can't exactly inhabit the space, the headspace I was in when I wrote that, but I think it's

677
00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:23,380
fair to think of your happiness and well-being as not existing on some sort of stock market

678
00:43:23,380 --> 00:43:26,860
like track.

679
00:43:26,860 --> 00:43:27,860
It's a rollercoaster.

680
00:43:27,860 --> 00:43:32,100
You should be able to absorb the high highs and the low lows and you definitely need to

681
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:38,140
be able to brace yourself and not set unrealistic expectations.

682
00:43:38,140 --> 00:43:41,180
Are there particular themes in...

683
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:43,900
Drive for happiness.

684
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:44,900
Drive for happiness.

685
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:45,900
Don't get me wrong.

686
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:48,700
I'm a big believer in happiness, for sure.

687
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:50,100
Do what makes you happy.

688
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:51,100
There you go.

689
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:52,100
Absolutely.

690
00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:57,700
Are there particular themes in sports or life, like redemption, teamwork, resilience or something

691
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:03,540
else that resonate deeply with you as a writer?

692
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:04,540
All of that.

693
00:44:04,540 --> 00:44:10,620
I mean, those are all very sort of human arcs of the comeback, the person who picked themselves

694
00:44:10,620 --> 00:44:18,100
up and overachieved and a late bloomer and all that stuff.

695
00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:22,700
Since the beginning of literature, those are very standard character arcs and to see them

696
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:27,060
repeat with such regularity in sports, again, it makes the job quite easy and feels like

697
00:44:27,060 --> 00:44:30,460
cheating that you're having it happen.

698
00:44:30,460 --> 00:44:33,180
Any game you go to, there's going to be those kinds of arcs.

699
00:44:33,180 --> 00:44:39,180
I think the hard part is finding things that are a little bit far afield from that, things

700
00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:44,500
that are a little bit different and finding people whose stories have not been told, and

701
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:45,500
that's what we strive to do.

702
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:51,500
You have your 2022 book, I Wouldn't Do That If I Were Me.

703
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:52,500
That's a book of essays.

704
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:54,860
Do you have a favorite one in that collection?

705
00:44:54,860 --> 00:45:01,100
And if so, would you share it with us?

706
00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:08,100
I definitely like all the stuff about my mother and her crazy cat, because that was something

707
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:10,100
that involved my family.

708
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:18,340
I won't spoil it, but we had a cat that jumped out a window at high speed and survived miraculously.

709
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:21,980
But definitely the essay that I hear the most about is the one about my wife and texting

710
00:45:21,980 --> 00:45:30,380
and unfortunate texts that were mistyped and misinterpreted.

711
00:45:30,380 --> 00:45:34,820
I think people have all had that experience of either receiving a text that was completely

712
00:45:34,940 --> 00:45:41,500
off and puzzled us or shocked us, or sending one accidentally that was completely off base.

713
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:43,860
So that's the one I hear about the most, for sure.

714
00:45:43,860 --> 00:45:45,860
I'm sure your wife's thrilled about that.

715
00:45:45,860 --> 00:45:46,860
She doesn't mind.

716
00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:49,860
I mean, she's not a big reader.

717
00:45:49,860 --> 00:45:54,660
I think she likes some of my stuff, not all of it.

718
00:45:54,660 --> 00:45:56,380
Fair enough.

719
00:45:56,380 --> 00:45:59,740
Every writer has projects they've always wanted to write about, but have never had the opportunity

720
00:45:59,740 --> 00:46:01,100
to tackle it.

721
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:09,780
What projects or topics are you looking forward to taking on in the future?

722
00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:15,100
One thing that I'm very interested in doing in 2025 is that the World Cycling Championships,

723
00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:19,060
and people who read me know that I have this weekend for bikes.

724
00:46:19,060 --> 00:46:28,340
They are going to be in sub-Saharan Africa for the first time in Rwanda.

725
00:46:28,340 --> 00:46:32,260
That's a country that I spent some time in about 15 years ago, when it was in a much

726
00:46:32,260 --> 00:46:40,340
more evolutionary period from, obviously, the genocide that happened there.

727
00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:41,460
It's a remarkable place.

728
00:46:41,460 --> 00:46:44,340
It's an incredible cycling country.

729
00:46:44,340 --> 00:46:47,980
The incredible moment is intoxicating.

730
00:46:47,980 --> 00:46:51,540
I can't wait for that opportunity, and I hope I'm able to go.

731
00:46:51,540 --> 00:46:52,540
That's awesome.

732
00:46:52,540 --> 00:46:54,620
Jason, we have just a few minutes left.

733
00:46:55,020 --> 00:47:00,700
What advice would you give to aspiring writers looking to find their own inspiration in storytelling?

734
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:02,180
Read.

735
00:47:02,180 --> 00:47:05,820
Read, read, read.

736
00:47:05,820 --> 00:47:07,060
Don't flip through your phone.

737
00:47:07,060 --> 00:47:15,380
Don't just scroll through texts, or Twitter, or Instagram reels, or anything like that.

738
00:47:15,380 --> 00:47:16,380
TikTok.

739
00:47:16,380 --> 00:47:18,060
TikTok is wildly entertaining.

740
00:47:18,060 --> 00:47:19,060
I get it.

741
00:47:19,060 --> 00:47:20,740
I make you a better writer.

742
00:47:20,740 --> 00:47:22,480
I think you got to read.

743
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:28,520
If it's books, if it's newspapers, if it's columns, if it's collections, if it's magazines,

744
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,800
if it's your own stuff, read, read, read, read, read.

745
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,680
I feel like it's like eating your greens.

746
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,360
I mean that in a positive way.

747
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,400
Reading should not feel like broccoli, right?

748
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:47,520
It should be incredibly engaging and make you happy, but that's the special sauce.

749
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:53,040
The more you do it, it has this way of just seeping into your bones and making you better

750
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,200
at it, even if you're not aware of it.

751
00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,800
And then the counterpoint to that, I mean, not the counterpoint, but the analog to that

752
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:07,000
is do write as much as possible.

753
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,360
Don't be selective in terms of what you're going to write, and when you're going to write,

754
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:11,760
and who you're going to write for.

755
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,280
Take every opportunity that's offered to you.

756
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,960
You don't have to say, like, I'm going to do only this, only this place, and I only

757
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,760
have these three or four places that I want to work for.

758
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:21,760
Take everything.

759
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,680
I wrote for a lot of places and a lot of subjects that I didn't think that I gave a damn about,

760
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,680
but all of them taught me something along the way.

761
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:35,040
So I think that you're at a point in your life where you have the opportunity to make

762
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:42,520
mistakes and trails that you might turn around from, but take advantage of that because the

763
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:43,520
stakes are lower.

764
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:49,280
Jason Gay, thank you so much for being with us today.

765
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,560
I'm grateful, and thank you so much for these questions.

766
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,360
It's good to be thinking about some of these things that I haven't thought about ever.

767
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:56,360
I'm genuinely honored.

768
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:57,360
I won't tell my producer that.

769
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:02,400
I'll give him a big head.

770
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:03,400
Thanks to our listeners.

771
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:04,400
I'm Chris Meek.

772
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:05,400
We're out of time.

773
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:06,400
We'll see you next week.

774
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:07,400
Same time, same place.

775
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,640
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

776
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,480
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.

777
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:22,660
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific Time

778
00:49:22,660 --> 00:49:27,520
and 1 p.m. Eastern Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

779
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,520
This week, make things happen in your life.

780
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:43,520
See you then.

781
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:44,520
Bye.