Run Like Hell: Healing from Trauma Bonds w/ Dr. Nadine Macaluso

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,240
There are few things that make people successful.

2
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:13,260
Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

3
00:00:13,260 --> 00:00:14,840
time to get there.

4
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,680
How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

5
00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,640
Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

6
00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:30,240
Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

7
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,360
Now here is Chris Meek.

8
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,360
Hello.

9
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,040
You've tuned in this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.

10
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,200
As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

11
00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,140
Our focus is on personal empowerment, a commitment to wellbeing, and the motivation to achieve

12
00:00:44,140 --> 00:00:45,640
more than ever thought possible.

13
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:51,160
We'll be talking about trauma bonding, intermittent reinforcement, pathological lovers, cognitive

14
00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:55,960
dissonance, what it takes to be a surthriver, and more with this week's extraordinary guest,

15
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,640
Dr. Nadine Macaluso.

16
00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,920
Dr. Macaluso, known to her patients as Dr. Nay, is the real-life inspiration behind Naomi

17
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,280
Belfort's character in the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street.

18
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,980
She survived a turbulent eight-year marriage to Jordan Belfort marked by abuse, greed,

19
00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:12,360
and trauma.

20
00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,360
Her journey of trauma and healing inspired her to return to school at age 39, where she

21
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:21,320
earned her master's degree in counseling and a PhD in somatic psychotherapy.

22
00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:26,560
She further specialized with a two-year postdoctoral training in the neuroaffective relational model.

23
00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,960
As a therapist, Dr. Macaluso combines her education and personal experiences to help

24
00:01:30,960 --> 00:01:32,720
others heal from trauma.

25
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,400
Her practice focuses on assisting patients in connecting with their authentic selves

26
00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,720
and fostering confidence, resilience, and agency.

27
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:44,160
Dr. Macaluso firmly believes in the potential for post-traumatic growth, instilling hope

28
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,520
in her patients, and guiding them to reach their potential in life and love.

29
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,000
Dr. Nadine Macaluso, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

30
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,000
Hello.

31
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,600
Thank you so much for having me, Chris.

32
00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:55,600
Thanks for being here.

33
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,400
I've really been looking forward to today's conversation.

34
00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,000
With that said, first, let's set the stage for the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street, for

35
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,440
those in our audience who didn't see it and aren't familiar with the storyline.

36
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:06,440
Yes.

37
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,900
What would you like for me to say about it?

38
00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:12,440
Maybe your backstory, sort of what led up to it.

39
00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:13,720
Yeah.

40
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:19,880
So, I mean, I am the real-life version, as you say, of Naomi Belfort.

41
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,440
Margot Robbie played me in the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street, and I was married to

42
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,920
Jordan Belfort for eight years.

43
00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:31,040
And the movie came to be because he wrote a book, The Wolf of Wall Street, which then

44
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:39,760
got made into a movie, and it just got made without my narrative, without much say, and

45
00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,040
I didn't, of course, make any money, but it was made about my life.

46
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,040
So that was a very interesting experience.

47
00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:47,880
We'll dig into that a little bit further.

48
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,000
It's shocking how they can do something like that.

49
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,000
We won't get into the legal ramifications at this point.

50
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,840
No, we don't need to.

51
00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,600
But I think anyone who saw the movie wonders how much of that story is true and how much

52
00:02:58,600 --> 00:02:59,600
is fiction.

53
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,760
And in fact, the CNBC episode of American Greed about Jordan Belfort aired again just

54
00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,440
after Thanksgiving, and one of the Wall Street veterans from that time said he had never

55
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:08,720
heard of Jordan Belfort.

56
00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,240
No one ever called him The Wolf of Wall Street.

57
00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,720
If it's not too unpleasant for you, would you separate fact from movie fiction for us?

58
00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,480
First about Jordan, and then we'll talk about how you were portrayed and set that record

59
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:19,480
straight.

60
00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:20,480
Yeah.

61
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:21,480
So, you know what?

62
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:22,480
Correct.

63
00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,560
He was never called The Wolf of Wall Street during that time.

64
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:27,560
That is definitely...

65
00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:35,460
I often do fact or fiction on my social media, and that is definitely fiction.

66
00:03:35,460 --> 00:03:38,980
He definitely could have been called The Wolf of Wall Street due to his behavior.

67
00:03:38,980 --> 00:03:44,140
And then for my depiction in the movie, I was totally fine with it.

68
00:03:44,140 --> 00:03:48,140
I mean, clearly it didn't show the depth of my character, but it showed me as a young

69
00:03:48,140 --> 00:03:54,100
girl who was so hopeful, fell in love with a crazy man, wanted to save and protect her

70
00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:58,860
kids and ended up leaving him due to abuse.

71
00:03:58,860 --> 00:04:00,380
Let's back up for a minute.

72
00:04:00,380 --> 00:04:03,300
Would you share a bit about your life before meeting Jordan Belfort?

73
00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:05,420
What were your aspirations and goals during that time?

74
00:04:05,420 --> 00:04:06,420
Sure.

75
00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:12,980
So, I was raised in Brooklyn by a single mother in the 70s and 80s, which was awesome for

76
00:04:12,980 --> 00:04:17,540
those of you who were around then and know how great it was, free internet and all that

77
00:04:17,540 --> 00:04:18,540
sort of stuff.

78
00:04:18,540 --> 00:04:23,860
And as I had mentioned, I was raised by a single mom, so I needed to make money.

79
00:04:23,860 --> 00:04:28,620
My mother was very into education, and I was like, that's great, mom, but I live in New

80
00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:30,300
York City and I need to make money.

81
00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:37,340
So I became a model, not because I wanted to, but simply to get some money in my pocket.

82
00:04:37,340 --> 00:04:43,980
And so I was living in New York City in the 80s and modeling and living with my best friend.

83
00:04:43,980 --> 00:04:51,140
And I was also going to school from time to time because she had instilled that into me.

84
00:04:51,140 --> 00:04:57,220
But really I was just trying to survive because New York City, as we know, is super expensive.

85
00:04:57,220 --> 00:05:00,540
And as someone who was raised by a single mom in the 70s and 80s, I can totally relate

86
00:05:00,540 --> 00:05:04,700
to your growing up and all that, so I appreciate that.

87
00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:06,620
How did you meet Jordan Belfort?

88
00:05:06,620 --> 00:05:10,900
So as the movie depicts, the movie, The Wolf of Wall Street, I did meet him at a party

89
00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:15,660
in the Hamptons, and it was at a big white house on the beach.

90
00:05:15,660 --> 00:05:20,940
And my boyfriend had taken me at the time, I had no idea where I was going, really whose

91
00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:22,980
house it was.

92
00:05:22,980 --> 00:05:27,300
And yes, I walked into this party, not as big as the movie depicts, but there were a

93
00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:33,300
bunch of people hanging out and I thought to myself, these people seem really strange.

94
00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:38,060
I didn't know they were all on Quaaludes because I didn't even know what a Quaalude was.

95
00:05:38,060 --> 00:05:42,220
So that was my first introduction to him.

96
00:05:42,220 --> 00:05:45,460
And for those viewers and listeners for the show who are not from the tri-state area,

97
00:05:45,460 --> 00:05:49,820
can you explain a little bit about what the Hamptons, what the personas are there and

98
00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:50,820
sort of who goes there?

99
00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:56,580
Yeah, so the Hamptons is really the beach town, as I would say, for the rich and famous,

100
00:05:56,580 --> 00:05:57,580
right?

101
00:05:57,580 --> 00:06:03,180
I mean, it wasn't as much back then, but now it's really become that, and it's full with

102
00:06:03,180 --> 00:06:11,380
opulence and parties and oodles of money and models and all of that, yeah.

103
00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:15,140
He's often been described as charismatic and larger than life.

104
00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:17,740
How did those traits affect your early dynamic with him?

105
00:06:17,740 --> 00:06:21,580
Were you immediately drawn to him or did it take some time for you to warm up to him?

106
00:06:21,580 --> 00:06:25,980
So the interesting part is, when I went to his party, I really didn't think anything

107
00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:26,980
about him.

108
00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:32,940
As I said, they all just seemed strange and I left and I was like, okay, bye-bye.

109
00:06:32,940 --> 00:06:39,140
But then he must've seen me and set his sights on me, often like narcissists do and was like,

110
00:06:39,140 --> 00:06:42,140
I want that object, I'm going to go get her.

111
00:06:42,140 --> 00:06:48,260
And then when I actually got to meet him, he is so larger than life.

112
00:06:48,260 --> 00:06:54,420
He's so magnanimous, he's so charismatic, and he is the ultimate salesman, hence he

113
00:06:54,420 --> 00:06:55,420
sold me.

114
00:06:55,420 --> 00:06:58,340
Did he have you right there?

115
00:06:58,340 --> 00:06:59,340
Right there.

116
00:06:59,340 --> 00:07:03,940
When did you start to notice some red flags and then when did you realize you needed to

117
00:07:03,940 --> 00:07:04,940
leave the relationship?

118
00:07:04,940 --> 00:07:11,300
Yeah, so I started to notice some red flags, I would say a few months in.

119
00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:15,060
And the red flags were the use of the substances, right?

120
00:07:15,060 --> 00:07:19,780
It wasn't so extreme in the beginning, but it did grow.

121
00:07:19,780 --> 00:07:26,820
And I noticed that whenever I would want to set a boundary or have a need, and if it didn't

122
00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:29,800
agree with him, he would go nuts.

123
00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,260
He would become so rageful.

124
00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:36,060
And I'd never experienced that rage, so I really didn't know what to do with it.

125
00:07:36,060 --> 00:07:37,460
But those were the red flags.

126
00:07:37,460 --> 00:07:38,820
I didn't want to get married.

127
00:07:38,820 --> 00:07:39,820
He's like threatening me.

128
00:07:39,820 --> 00:07:42,020
He's like, if you don't marry me, I won't date you.

129
00:07:42,020 --> 00:07:46,820
And then I didn't want to have kids, and if you don't have kids, I won't marry you.

130
00:07:46,820 --> 00:07:49,620
So there was always these threats.

131
00:07:49,620 --> 00:07:52,220
What made you stay so long?

132
00:07:52,220 --> 00:07:53,780
I loved him.

133
00:07:53,780 --> 00:07:54,780
I loved him.

134
00:07:54,780 --> 00:07:55,980
I fell madly in love with him.

135
00:07:55,980 --> 00:07:57,100
I had children.

136
00:07:57,100 --> 00:08:02,820
I was financially dependent upon him, and I feared him.

137
00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:06,460
What role did therapy, self-reflection, or support systems play in helping you move forward?

138
00:08:06,460 --> 00:08:08,700
Oh, I mean, that was everything for me.

139
00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:13,260
The second I met my ex, I put myself right into therapy because I realized that this

140
00:08:13,260 --> 00:08:21,180
life and him was much more than I could ever deal with at the ripe old age of 23.

141
00:08:21,180 --> 00:08:26,420
And I've always had a strong support system, and resilience can only be built with support.

142
00:08:26,420 --> 00:08:31,460
And therapy forces you to self-reflect, so it was good.

143
00:08:31,460 --> 00:08:35,100
The self-reflection kept me connected to me.

144
00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:39,820
I mentioned trauma bonding, intermittent reinforcement, and cognitive dissonance in the open.

145
00:08:39,820 --> 00:08:42,820
You said that all three played a part in your dependency on Jordan.

146
00:08:42,820 --> 00:08:43,820
Let's take them one by one.

147
00:08:43,820 --> 00:08:46,460
Can you start by describing trauma bonding?

148
00:08:46,460 --> 00:08:47,460
Yeah.

149
00:08:47,460 --> 00:08:52,940
So trauma bonding is really a term that describes a toxic dysfunctional relationship between

150
00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:55,220
two emotionally attached people.

151
00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:59,340
But the thing that makes a trauma bond so unique is that one of the partners wants power

152
00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:03,140
and control over the other partner.

153
00:09:03,780 --> 00:09:06,180
So there are two ways that they get that.

154
00:09:06,180 --> 00:09:08,980
The first one is there's a power imbalance.

155
00:09:08,980 --> 00:09:13,900
Usually this power imbalance can be due to resources, one of the partners has more resources,

156
00:09:13,900 --> 00:09:17,380
or just the very fact that you love someone, right?

157
00:09:17,380 --> 00:09:20,140
You depend upon them and they can have power over you.

158
00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:22,540
We just hope they wouldn't abuse it.

159
00:09:22,540 --> 00:09:29,580
And intermittent reinforcement is, the way I describe it, is when you first meet this

160
00:09:29,580 --> 00:09:32,220
partner, they're like Romeo.

161
00:09:32,300 --> 00:09:37,140
They're generous and kind and loving and helpful and everything you could imagine.

162
00:09:37,140 --> 00:09:43,540
But then the mask falls and they start to be cruel, controlling, and abusive, and that's

163
00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:45,140
Dirty John.

164
00:09:45,140 --> 00:09:49,260
And so they go between cruelty and kindness.

165
00:09:49,260 --> 00:09:53,660
That's the intermittent reinforcement, and that would bond you to them.

166
00:09:53,660 --> 00:09:55,420
And then what does that create?

167
00:09:55,420 --> 00:10:00,580
When you feel like you're dating two different people, it creates confusion, which is the

168
00:10:00,580 --> 00:10:03,700
cognitive dissonance.

169
00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:06,460
And then we hear the term gaslighting a lot these days.

170
00:10:06,460 --> 00:10:09,100
Are cognitive dissonance and gaslighting the same thing?

171
00:10:09,100 --> 00:10:10,100
No.

172
00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:14,300
So gaslighting is when you're in a trauma bond or you're with one of these pathological

173
00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:17,380
people and you say to them, I know you cheated on me.

174
00:10:17,380 --> 00:10:18,540
They say, that didn't happen.

175
00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:19,540
You're crazy.

176
00:10:19,540 --> 00:10:20,540
You're making it up.

177
00:10:20,540 --> 00:10:21,540
You're overreacting.

178
00:10:21,540 --> 00:10:25,540
They're always denying your reality or your reaction to them.

179
00:10:25,540 --> 00:10:30,740
And so that's what gaslighting is, and it's really also caused by the cognitive dissonance

180
00:10:30,740 --> 00:10:33,180
because you're already confused.

181
00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:36,500
So you're having a hard time even holding on to your reality.

182
00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:42,260
We had a guest on a few weeks ago who, same thing, kept saying, are you seeing somebody?

183
00:10:42,260 --> 00:10:44,140
Is there something wrong here?

184
00:10:44,140 --> 00:10:49,660
And the night she was going to confront her husband, he was actually shot by the husband

185
00:10:49,660 --> 00:10:53,100
of his assistant who he was having an affair with.

186
00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:54,100
Whoa.

187
00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:55,100
Yeah.

188
00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:56,100
Yeah.

189
00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:57,100
Crime of passion.

190
00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:58,100
Yep.

191
00:10:58,100 --> 00:10:59,100
Yep.

192
00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:00,100
Exactly.

193
00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:01,100
And with fire.

194
00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:05,060
Intermittent reinforcement is a powerful psychological method often used intentionally or unintentionally

195
00:11:05,060 --> 00:11:07,740
in manipulative or toxic relationships.

196
00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:09,500
How does intermittent reinforcement work?

197
00:11:09,500 --> 00:11:13,620
Why is it so effective in creating dependency and how can we recognize it when it's happening?

198
00:11:13,620 --> 00:11:14,620
Yeah.

199
00:11:14,620 --> 00:11:20,300
So as I mentioned, so in the beginning, this partner's Romeo, then they become dirty John.

200
00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:26,140
And why it's so efficient is that when I wrote my book, there was research that said

201
00:11:26,140 --> 00:11:32,580
animal trainers that use intermittent reinforcement, this cruelty and kindness system, that animals

202
00:11:32,580 --> 00:11:38,340
bond to the trainers 230% more than just straight kindness.

203
00:11:38,340 --> 00:11:43,260
And so when I read that research, I got excited because it really explained this phenomenon.

204
00:11:43,260 --> 00:11:48,960
And it's these extreme behaviors that create extreme feelings inside of you that create

205
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:49,960
the bond.

206
00:11:50,620 --> 00:11:53,960
And so if you're in a relationship and you're feeling crazy and you're walking on eggshells

207
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,120
and you don't know who's going to come through the door, you're probably experiencing intermittent

208
00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,120
reinforcement.

209
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:04,480
And can intermittent reinforcement occur unintentionally in relationships and how can partners become

210
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,320
more aware of their dynamics?

211
00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:07,320
Yeah.

212
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:13,080
I think that the person who is using intermittent reinforcement, the pathological partner, I

213
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:19,200
do think it's intentional because I think that all they do is want to manipulate you

214
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,960
to have power and control over you.

215
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,880
And so they see that it works and you need to be aware that if you're feeling really

216
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,800
confused in your relationship and you notice this pattern of cruelty and kindness, not

217
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:33,800
just once, right?

218
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,960
It has to be a pattern.

219
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:43,600
And if it's a pattern, then start to really do some research and figure out what's happening.

220
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,080
In one more definition, what is love bombing and where does it fit into the picture?

221
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,000
So love bombing is a manipulation.

222
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,760
So it's the manipulation that intentionally happens at the beginning of the trauma bond

223
00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:03,440
where the partner is giving you oodles of admiration and attention and calling and texting

224
00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:08,520
you 10 times a day and saying, we're going to go on trips and you're my soulmate.

225
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,080
But you know what?

226
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,720
You don't become somebody's soulmate in two weeks.

227
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:17,600
And I have a saying, if it feels too good to be true, it probably is.

228
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,080
And that's an old adage that to your point, where there's smoke, there's fire.

229
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,960
So that's great insight right there.

230
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,160
And through your life experiences, return to college in your late thirties, turn a master's

231
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:35,040
degree and doctorate in your years of practice, you become an expert on the emotional trauma

232
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,280
wrought by pathological lovers.

233
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:38,680
How do you spot a pathological lover?

234
00:13:38,680 --> 00:13:40,800
What are some of the red flags for that?

235
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:41,800
Yeah.

236
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:47,520
So I even have a pathological lover checklist in my book and on my website.

237
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,440
So if they tell you that all of their exes are crazy, why?

238
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:53,760
Maybe they made them crazy.

239
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:59,640
If you see, you know, substance abuse right away, if they're double standards, what's

240
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:05,680
good for him, isn't what's good for, right, isn't good for him, like, or the opposite.

241
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:08,920
Double standards are abusive, sexual promiscuity.

242
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,000
If they're really jealous and possessive, and I mean, you just met them, you're in love

243
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000
with them.

244
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,120
Why do they need to be like that?

245
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,240
They blame you for everything.

246
00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:25,040
So I could go on and on, but you're getting the picture of this very selfish person who

247
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,240
lacks a moral compass and feels entitled.

248
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,120
You've mentioned your website a couple of times.

249
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,120
Where can people find you?

250
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:32,120
Yeah.

251
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:33,120
DoctorNae.com.

252
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:39,840
And I tell people to go there because there's so many free resources and so many free assessments.

253
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,980
Take advantage of them.

254
00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:45,360
And then for those people who are not watching, but listening, they can't see the stack of

255
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,240
your books behind you, which I love the coloring there.

256
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,520
The book is run like hell and we'll get into that in a few minutes, but where can people

257
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:54,520
find your book?

258
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:55,520
Yeah.

259
00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,560
They can find it on my website, again, DoctorNae.com or Amazon or Barnes & Noble, everywhere books

260
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:01,560
are sold.

261
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:02,560
Yeah.

262
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:03,880
And there's an audio book and an ebook.

263
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:04,880
I love the color scheme.

264
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,120
It's just bright and cheery and I love it.

265
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,120
It's perfect.

266
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,760
What are the motives of pathological lovers?

267
00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,380
What drives them?

268
00:15:13,380 --> 00:15:21,420
So I have a very simple statement and I say that a pathological lover will use, harm,

269
00:15:21,420 --> 00:15:27,420
exploit, and betray anyone and everyone, maybe even their mother, okay, not just their lover,

270
00:15:27,420 --> 00:15:32,740
to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure, and status.

271
00:15:32,740 --> 00:15:34,140
That simple.

272
00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:36,700
That simple.

273
00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:39,660
How are healthy self-esteem and narcissism different?

274
00:15:39,940 --> 00:15:45,940
Well, with healthy self-esteem, your self-esteem is built on your competency and things that

275
00:15:45,940 --> 00:15:50,100
you're actually accomplishing in your life based in reality.

276
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:54,540
And also with healthy self-esteem, I know I'm not better or worse than anybody.

277
00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:56,380
I know I'm just me.

278
00:15:56,380 --> 00:16:03,780
And narcissism is different because they feel superior, they feel entitled, and it's really

279
00:16:03,780 --> 00:16:11,300
built on a false foundation of needing to keep this superior image up.

280
00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:16,900
How long after your marriage did you finally realize it's not me, it's him, and go through

281
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,980
sort of your healing and recovery process?

282
00:16:19,980 --> 00:16:25,380
I think it took me a long time to realize that it wasn't me.

283
00:16:25,380 --> 00:16:29,420
Because you have to remember back then when I left him, we weren't talking about narcissism.

284
00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:33,580
We weren't talking about trauma bonding, even though I was in therapy.

285
00:16:34,380 --> 00:16:39,580
So I think it took me a long time to really understand what was happening.

286
00:16:39,580 --> 00:16:42,580
Did you ever blame yourself for anything?

287
00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:45,140
Oh, sure, yeah.

288
00:16:45,140 --> 00:16:48,860
Because when you're a reflective person, you almost over-blame yourself, right?

289
00:16:48,860 --> 00:16:51,420
And they blame you for everything, too.

290
00:16:51,420 --> 00:16:56,580
So I blame myself, he blamed me, and then I blamed me for blaming me.

291
00:16:56,580 --> 00:17:00,100
And that makes complete sense.

292
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:03,420
What are the traits of women who become the victims of pathological lovers?

293
00:17:04,260 --> 00:17:06,260
Is there such a thing as a perfect victim?

294
00:17:06,260 --> 00:17:08,500
There is such a thing as a perfect victim.

295
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:11,540
And this is one of the reasons I wrote my book, is because I really wanted to break

296
00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:13,540
the stigma of the victim.

297
00:17:13,540 --> 00:17:19,500
And listen, sometimes people have early developmental trauma, they pick a partner that's familiar

298
00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:23,580
to their feeling tone that they had in their upbringing, right?

299
00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:31,220
But oftentimes, as it was with me, I score very high in personality traits of agreeableness,

300
00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:37,580
meaning I'm loyal and pro-social and tolerant, and conscientiousness, meaning I'm diligent

301
00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:40,220
and organized and I have integrity.

302
00:17:40,220 --> 00:17:45,380
And if a woman comes to me and embodies these traits, I'm not going to therapize them out

303
00:17:45,380 --> 00:17:46,380
of her, right?

304
00:17:46,380 --> 00:17:53,340
But in the hands of a pathological individual, they get weaponized.

305
00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:56,860
So why do smart, successful women who seem to have everything and have everything going

306
00:17:56,860 --> 00:18:01,540
for them end up in these toxic relationships where they fall for pathological lovers?

307
00:18:01,540 --> 00:18:05,100
Because they believe that everybody's like them.

308
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:10,020
And they think everybody's good and everybody's decent and that people just want to go into

309
00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:18,540
relationships just like they do to love, and they don't see the pathological lover coming.

310
00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:21,700
How does a relationship with a pathological lover typically progress?

311
00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:23,940
I imagine there are clearly identifiable stages.

312
00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:24,940
Yeah.

313
00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:29,660
So in the beginning, I call it the love-conning stage, like that's where the love-bombing

314
00:18:29,660 --> 00:18:31,980
or sweet-seduction stage.

315
00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:36,740
And this is where everything is just wonderful, and you're like, oh my God, I met a unicorn.

316
00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:38,420
This is amazing.

317
00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:43,980
Then the mask falls, right, Romeo masks fall, and you see betraying and gaslighting and

318
00:18:43,980 --> 00:18:49,380
coercion and lying, and that I call the trauma vortex.

319
00:18:49,380 --> 00:18:54,380
And then the third stage is hopefully when people leave, the last straw.

320
00:18:54,380 --> 00:18:58,860
They have a last straw moment, or they get discarded because narcissists are known to

321
00:18:58,860 --> 00:19:02,860
discard their lovers as well.

322
00:19:02,860 --> 00:19:06,620
And then what normally happens when someone figures out that they're in a toxic relationship?

323
00:19:06,620 --> 00:19:09,220
How often are they able to just simply walk away?

324
00:19:09,220 --> 00:19:10,220
They're not.

325
00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:11,220
They're not.

326
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:16,860
Because of the complex psychological processes of cognitive dissonance, intimate and reinforcement.

327
00:19:16,860 --> 00:19:22,220
Now the research shows on average, it takes a woman four to seven times to attempt to

328
00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:24,860
leave one of these relationships.

329
00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:26,980
So it's very hard to simply walk away.

330
00:19:26,980 --> 00:19:31,900
Plus if there's kids and you're married and financial dependence, that's why education

331
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:35,340
is of seminal importance.

332
00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:37,960
Do we know what percentage of men are pathological lovers?

333
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,700
Is it one in 10, one in 100?

334
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:45,980
You know, there's a great book, Woman Who Loves Psychopaths, and she says about 60 million

335
00:19:45,980 --> 00:19:47,740
Americans.

336
00:19:47,740 --> 00:19:49,780
I don't know how accurate that is.

337
00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:51,600
That's a big number.

338
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,080
It's a big number, but you know, we have to remember we have a lot of undiagnosed personality

339
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,920
disorders running around in the country.

340
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,600
I don't think it's too difficult to see that.

341
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:01,600
Fair point.

342
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:02,600
Fair point.

343
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,960
So the conversation is often about men who are narcissists and cheaters.

344
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,880
How often are women narcissists and cheaters?

345
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:09,880
Oh, sure.

346
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,360
They are narcissists and cheaters too.

347
00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:18,160
I mean, the research says one in four women are victims of domestic violence and one in

348
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:19,160
nine men.

349
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:27,040
But of course, women, you know, anybody can be a pathological narcissist.

350
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,120
Are there different traits between men who are pathological lovers and women?

351
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:37,760
You know, I am sure that there are, but I think at the end of the day, it goes back

352
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,960
to that motivation of they will use harm, exploit, and betray anyone to get their needs

353
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,600
met for money, power, pleasure, and status.

354
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,080
I think it's all about the motivation behind the behavior.

355
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,560
So I don't think that they're that different.

356
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:58,920
Maybe the women or some women can be more obvious, more emotional, but relationships

357
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:07,400
with pathological people are erratic and dramatic no matter what the sex, sexual orientation.

358
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:08,400
Erratic and dramatic.

359
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:13,000
That's a T-shirt, a bumper sticker, and a good analogy for everything.

360
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,000
Yes.

361
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,000
Yes.

362
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,360
Do narcissists ever want to change?

363
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,160
Oh God, this is where it gets tricky.

364
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,320
So I'm in the business of change, right, Chris?

365
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,960
So I do believe that people want to change, but here's the thing, narcissists don't really

366
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:28,960
hit rock bottom.

367
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,960
If they're getting all their needs met, what's the motivation to change?

368
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,480
I believe that if somebody wants to change, they can, and I have seen it happen on some

369
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:43,240
occasions, but they have to want to.

370
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,960
How can someone who grew up with a narcissistic parent recognize and break free from partners

371
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,240
they may carry into their adult relationships?

372
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,640
So you mean so that they don't repeat the pattern?

373
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:55,640
Exactly.

374
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:56,640
Learn from history.

375
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:57,640
Yeah.

376
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,160
I mean, listen, if you grew up in a narcissistic family, you can become the narcissist, right?

377
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:09,600
So that can be really hard to be aware of, and also you can become a more pleasing, over-accommodating

378
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:10,600
individual.

379
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:19,880
And again, noticing if you can't sustain relationships, if your relationships are traumatic and erratic,

380
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:25,080
and you know that your parents were neglectful or abusive, I mean, you experienced that,

381
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:32,400
then don't judge yourself, get into therapy, because we can heal developmental trauma.

382
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,800
And if you grew up with a narcissistic parent, are you more likely to become a narcissist

383
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:36,800
yourself?

384
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:37,800
Correct.

385
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,120
Yeah, because a lot of it is a learned behavior.

386
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:41,120
Right.

387
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:46,880
So you're a survivor, or I should say a surthriver, of more than your relationship with Jordan

388
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,000
Belfort.

389
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,320
You survived skin cancer and breast cancer.

390
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,200
Your relationship with Jordan obviously changed the course of your life and your outlook.

391
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,640
Did your experiences with cancer also change your outlook on life, relationships, or your

392
00:22:58,640 --> 00:22:59,640
priorities?

393
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:00,640
Oh, sure.

394
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:01,640
Yeah.

395
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:09,480
Because when you're dealing with cancer, it's very scary, it's very fearful, but you can't

396
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:10,840
avoid it.

397
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:11,840
You have to approach.

398
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,720
You have to face it.

399
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:20,440
And so it's really taught me that you can't avoid what you fear.

400
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,520
Have you incorporated any lessons or experiences as a cancer surthriver into your work as a

401
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:25,520
therapist?

402
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,520
Oh, sure.

403
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:27,520
Yeah.

404
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,240
Just as I mentioned, like approaching what you fear.

405
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:37,240
And here's the thing, life will always throw us curveballs, no matter who we are.

406
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:45,080
And so get educated, have a community so you can build resilience, because we have

407
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,880
to be prepared, as we've seen with these fires, right?

408
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:51,560
That life can just...

409
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,560
It's always going to throw us curveballs, as long as we're on the planet.

410
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:55,560
Yep.

411
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:56,560
No, absolutely.

412
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:57,560
All right.

413
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,240
Let's talk about your book, Run Like Hell, which has been described as a survival guide

414
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,280
for women in abusive relationships.

415
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,720
You've already changed the lives of countless women.

416
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,240
Why'd you feel compelled to write the book?

417
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:14,080
I felt compelled to write the book because I was in my therapy practice and all these

418
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:20,480
smart, kind, beautiful women were coming in coercively controlled, betrayed, financially

419
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,680
abused, physically abused.

420
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,440
And I just said, Houston, we've got a problem.

421
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,200
And so being the academic that I am, I just was like, let's go back to the research.

422
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,440
Honestly, I don't know if it was God coming through me, I don't know, it was some intervention

423
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,640
that just came through me and drove me to do it because it's a very humbling experience.

424
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,560
I don't recommend writing a book.

425
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,760
Well, that answers my next question.

426
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,560
Is there anything else in the works for you?

427
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,640
Not right this second.

428
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,120
I'm starting a community, actually, a trauma bond recovery community that I just launched.

429
00:24:53,120 --> 00:25:00,960
And I'm doing an online course to reach more people with my work because it's so necessary.

430
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,200
But a book is on the back burner.

431
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,280
Fair enough.

432
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,680
And the workshop, where can people find that?

433
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:17,320
They can go to my website, drnae.com or tbr.drnae.com and I host it on the Circle platform.

434
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,320
So yeah, it's exciting.

435
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,600
And where can they find you on social media?

436
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:27,080
Oh, they can find me at The Real Dr. Nadeen on Instagram and Wild West.

437
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:33,600
I don't know if TikTok is still going to be around after the 19th, but Dr. Nae LMFT.

438
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:39,040
And I post every single day and I answer all of my direct messages.

439
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,800
A review in Publishers Weekly describes Run Like Hell as, quote, raw, straight talking,

440
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,720
but ultimately heartening guide to healing from intimate partner abuse and trauma-bonded

441
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:48,720
relationships.

442
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,520
When did you start to write Run Like Hell and did the final product look like what you

443
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:53,520
expected it to be when you started?

444
00:25:53,520 --> 00:26:01,520
Yes, I think I started to write it around 2018 or 19.

445
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,680
And I think it does look like I expected it to look.

446
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:06,680
Yeah.

447
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,320
You know, when you write a book, you're in it, you really don't know if it's going to

448
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,320
be any good.

449
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,280
I mean, that's just my truth, at least.

450
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:19,440
But so many women have told me that it's become their survival guide a year later.

451
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,680
And it's really just warms my heart and makes all that hard, terrible work worth it.

452
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:29,160
Well, maybe as a follow up, what are some of the most important parts of the book?

453
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,560
I think an important part that we don't talk about a lot is the third section, which is

454
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:39,760
all about how to heal, because we can heal from a trauma bond.

455
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:46,960
And in the third section, I talk about how to heal your mind, your body, your brain,

456
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,440
every single part of you, your feeling towards relationships, how to trust yourself again,

457
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,480
how to heal the cognitive dissonance.

458
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,800
I think it's really important, that part.

459
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,720
And as people go through that healing process, is there a typical or an average timeframe

460
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,960
or is it case by case and different for everybody?

461
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,280
I would say it takes, it's depending upon how long you've been in your trauma bond.

462
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,800
It could take at least a year and up to two years.

463
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,880
How do we set boundaries from the start of any new relationship to protect ourselves

464
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,440
from being manipulated by somebody?

465
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,200
Find your no.

466
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,440
Realize that no is a sentence and don't be afraid to say it.

467
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,680
Very short two letter word, that's your boundary.

468
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:30,680
That's it.

469
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:31,680
I don't agree with that.

470
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:32,680
I can't do that.

471
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:33,680
I won't tolerate that.

472
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,640
This goes against my values.

473
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,960
You've written that, quote, trauma is life altering, but it's not a life sentence.

474
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,440
Is that the concept behind what you've dubbed as being a surthriver and not just surviving,

475
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,440
but surthriving?

476
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,760
Yeah, because I don't know.

477
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:57,000
I think that when we're faced with these very challenging traumatic relationships,

478
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:03,040
it can really make us fall to our knees, but it's in those moments that we are open to

479
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,160
change and open to learn.

480
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,120
You've said rather than asking why pathological lovers lie in sheep, it's more important to

481
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:15,440
turn the mirror on yourself, plan your escape and leave your trauma bond.

482
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,480
We know though that the most dangerous time and sadly all too often a fatal time is when

483
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,720
someone attempts to leave their abuser.

484
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,160
What does it take to leave safely?

485
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:32,640
I have the saying, once you internally decide to leave, don't ever let them see you coming.

486
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:40,040
Do not let them know that you are planning on leaving and you must plan behind the scenes.

487
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,520
Did you learn anything about yourself while you're researching and writing Run Like Hell?

488
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:44,520
Oh yeah.

489
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,520
I learned that I must be nuts to have done this.

490
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:49,520
No.

491
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:56,840
I learned that I am perseverant, that I don't give up when the going gets tough and that

492
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,840
I'm probably capable of more than I realized.

493
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,000
What steps are most crucial to rebuild a life and regain a sense of self-worth after escaping

494
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,720
from a trauma bond and pathological lover?

495
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,720
The first thing is, remember, you've been through trauma.

496
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:18,200
After a traumatic experience, you must stabilize and you must employ self-care.

497
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:19,200
What are you eating?

498
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,200
What are you drinking?

499
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,360
You must exercise, meditation practice, journaling because you have to stabilize before you begin

500
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,480
the work on yourself because when you've been in a trauma bond, you lose yourself.

501
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,840
You have to work on ways to, like you say, turn the mirror back on and regain your sense

502
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,840
of self, heal the cognitive dissonance and heal the trauma symptoms.

503
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,840
You must really start with self-care.

504
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,360
It's one thing to heal and it's another to avoid failing into the same trap again.

505
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,600
What does it take to avoid falling back into the clutches of the next manipulative pathological

506
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,600
lover?

507
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,600
Education.

508
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:54,600
Education empowers.

509
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,600
This is why I wrote my book.

510
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,240
You need to know your personality traits.

511
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:01,240
Are you perfect prey?

512
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,440
Do you have those personality traits?

513
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,640
What's your attachment pattern?

514
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:10,200
You need to understand how the pathological lover presents and you need to take a break

515
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:16,000
from dating, but really education is what leads to empowerment.

516
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,640
What does a healthy relationship look like after someone is healed from a trauma bond?

517
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:27,280
Yeah, well, I am in one for now quite some time and it's a relationship where there's

518
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:36,120
a beautiful quality of connection and warmth and respect and trust, but also your partner

519
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,040
gives you the space to be who you are.

520
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:44,840
They're not trying to control you and yeah, they respect who you are and they support

521
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,640
your personal growth.

522
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,200
When you left that marriage 26 years ago, you began journaling as you mentioned a few

523
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:52,200
minutes ago.

524
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,800
What did you expect to get from journaling and how did it help you?

525
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,360
I was so incredibly lonely after I left my trauma bond, even though I was happy that

526
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,960
I left and I wanted to leave.

527
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:09,720
Journaling really filled in those holes with loneliness and the page never judged and I

528
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,800
could always go to it and just express my feelings and process it and dump it out and

529
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,000
release it and let it go.

530
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,680
You did two years of postdoctoral training in the neuroaffective relational model.

531
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,200
Walk us through the neuroaffective relational model and I'm assuming it helps people, right?

532
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,720
Yeah, it helps people.

533
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,360
So what it is, is it's a theory that, so I got my PhD in somatic psychotherapy, which

534
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,240
means that we really use the body in the clinical encounter.

535
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:42,040
And so the neuroaffective relational model, what it does is that it looks at people's

536
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:48,600
developmental trauma and sees what they missed, right?

537
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,480
What did they not get in their childhood?

538
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:57,040
And then they had to come up with these adaptive survival responses, but they might not serve

539
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,880
us anymore as adults.

540
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,440
So then we look at the person through that lens and we use the minds and the body to

541
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,040
help them heal.

542
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,600
Two other recovery methods include eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, also known

543
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,600
as EMDR, and the other is somatic experiencing.

544
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,080
Talk about how they involve and how they work and who would be good candidates for

545
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,080
those approaches.

546
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:26,160
Yeah, so EMDR is a great approach because what you can do is you can take one specific

547
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:33,200
experience of trauma and there's a system that the therapist uses and you speak about

548
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:39,560
that trauma and then they either use tapping or they use a finger with the eye movement

549
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,440
and it really helps you process and release that trauma.

550
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,720
And there's been wonderful outcomes with it.

551
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:52,240
And somatic experiencing really was the precursor to NARM.

552
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:59,000
And so somatic experience is more about dealing with shock traumas, like a fire, like a hurricane,

553
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,000
like a car crash.

554
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,840
And again, using the body to help heal from one of those big T traumas.

555
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:11,040
I do some work in the veteran and first responder mental health space and EMDR is a huge, huge

556
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,600
thing that's used for PTSD for those people.

557
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,680
And so I appreciate you talking us through that.

558
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,920
Have you been able to find closure for the more painful aspects of your shared past and

559
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,640
forgive Jordan Belfort?

560
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:23,640
Yes.

561
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:24,640
Yeah.

562
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,360
Listen, we share two beautiful children.

563
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,760
We have one grandson, another one on the way.

564
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:40,720
And listen, there are many different thoughts about this, but I have just gone on and lived

565
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,280
my life and made my life mine.

566
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:49,960
And once that happens, I just let the rest go.

567
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,800
When you first left him, did you ever see yourself where you are today?

568
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:53,800
Oh God, no.

569
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:54,800
No.

570
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,440
And that's the thing I offer to people.

571
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,160
I could have never imagined what I've accomplished and what I've done.

572
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,920
It's just, I was like the little engine that could, little by little, day by day, week

573
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,560
by week, month by month.

574
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:10,560
Yeah.

575
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:12,400
Because you're a sure thriver.

576
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:13,400
Yeah.

577
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:14,400
Yeah.

578
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,400
But you put in the work, right?

579
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,440
My theory is you do put in the work and then you surrender.

580
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,200
You put in the work and then you surrender.

581
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,080
If someone in today's audience is trapped in a toxic or an abusive relationship, what

582
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,240
do you want them to know and what do you want them to do?

583
00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:33,420
What I want them to know is that I know when you're trapped in a trauma bond, it feels

584
00:34:33,420 --> 00:34:38,760
like you're going to be trapped forever, that you can't break those bonds or those chains.

585
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,360
But just the very fact, if you're listening to this, I'm sure something is happening inside

586
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:43,360
of you.

587
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,600
There might be a quickening or a kindling in your brain and you're like, wait, okay,

588
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,560
this is giving me hope.

589
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:50,560
Look for the helpers.

590
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,640
Like Mr. Rogers says, the helpers are out there and I always offer this to people.

591
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,140
To be a licensed clinician, I had to do 3,000 hours at $5 an hour.

592
00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:05,840
So even if you can't afford therapy, find the clinicians that are looking to get licensed,

593
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,720
the interns.

594
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:12,160
Find a center because you can find help.

595
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,360
Would you take us to the end of our conversation with advice or a story that helps our audience

596
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,400
feel more resilient, empowered, able to succeed in the face of adversity?

597
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:20,400
Yeah.

598
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:25,280
So you mentioned something about would I have ever thought that this would become my life.

599
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:31,000
And about a year ago, I was in New York City and my book had come out and I was about to

600
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,840
do NBC Now.

601
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:40,720
And I went to the same hair salon that I had gotten my hair done at 30 years ago.

602
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:43,200
And actually by one of the same men.

603
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,480
And I thought to myself, if you would have told me 30 years ago that I would have written

604
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:54,120
a book, gotten my doctorate, I was going to be on NBC Now, I would have said to you, get

605
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,040
out of town.

606
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,160
So there are things in your life that are going to happen for you that you can't imagine

607
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,160
yet.

608
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:02,840
And that's okay.

609
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:09,080
But just keep the faith, keep showing up, keep doing the work and you'll get there.

610
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:10,080
And one more time.

611
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,080
Where can people find you on the internet?

612
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:12,080
Sure.

613
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:20,440
They can find me at drnae.com and please come visit me on my website or Instagram, TheRealDrNadine.

614
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,640
And the book Run Like Hell is found on any platform you buy books at.

615
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:24,640
That's right.

616
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:25,640
Go get it.

617
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,520
And what would you share with us that gives you hope and why we should all have more hope

618
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,560
in today's stress filled and challenging world?

619
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,400
When I look at the flyers, I lived in Los Angeles for 24 years.

620
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,200
And so of course, needless to say, I'm devastated by them, but I see the way community is coming

621
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,080
together out there and my name actually Nadine means hope.

622
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:54,600
So I am an optimist, but I don't know, seeing that community come together and see them

623
00:36:54,600 --> 00:37:02,200
all work towards helping each other, it just shows me that in our hearts, people are good.

624
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,680
There's more good for me than dark.

625
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,040
My wife and I were talking last night, we were watching the news about the fires and

626
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,560
she and I went through 9-11 and we live in Connecticut now.

627
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,800
And going back to 9-11, going back to the hurricanes, the Florida just had the end of

628
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,920
last year and now the fires, and in particular to your point about Los Angeles and the fires,

629
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,560
these are their individual 9-11s.

630
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,360
But to your point, the community, the sense of belonging coming together, I mean, this

631
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,520
is the resiliency that we hope for and we pray for in Americans.

632
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,040
And so it's nice to see that happening.

633
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,720
Unfortunately, it's the situation, circumstance that takes that.

634
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:37,720
Yeah.

635
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:38,720
But-

636
00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:39,720
It's beautiful to see.

637
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:40,720
Yes.

638
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:42,520
I could cry watching a lot of it.

639
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:43,520
It's so extraordinary.

640
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:44,520
Yeah.

641
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:45,520
Absolutely.

642
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,240
Dr. Nadine Macaluso, thank you so much for being with us today.

643
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,280
Oh, thank you so much for having me.

644
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,280
It was an honor.

645
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,320
And I'll see you in Connecticut maybe.

646
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,320
I hope so.

647
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,320
Come anytime, but come when it's a little warmer.

648
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,320
It's a little chilly today.

649
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,320
I know you're in Florida right now.

650
00:37:58,320 --> 00:37:59,320
I will.

651
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,120
And thank you to our audience, which now includes people in over 50 countries for joining us

652
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,440
for another episode of Next Steps Forward.

653
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:06,440
I'm Dr. Chris Meek.

654
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:11,080
For more details on upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at facebook.com

655
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,640
forward slash ChrisMeekPublicFigure and an ex formerly known as Twitter at ChrisMeek

656
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:16,640
underscore USA.

657
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,000
We'll be back next Tuesday, same time, same place with another leader from the world of

658
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,480
business, health, public policy, politics, sports, or entertainment.

659
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:33,680
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

660
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,460
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.

661
00:38:36,460 --> 00:38:41,640
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time

662
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,520
and 1 p.m. Eastern time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

663
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,480
This week, make things happen in your life.

664
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,480
I'm Chris Meek.

665
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,480
I'll see you next time.

666
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:58,480
Take care.

667
00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:58,500
Bye.