The Fight For Change w/ Dr. Marcel van der Watt

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now here is Chris Meek.

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Hello.

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You've tuned in this week's episode of Next Steps Forward, and I'm your host, Chris Meek.

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As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

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Next Steps Forward is committed to helping others achieve more than ever while experiencing

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greater personal empowerment and wellbeing.

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Our guest today is Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt.

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As president of the National Center on Sexual Exploitation, Marcel Van Der Watt brings more

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than 22 years of expertise in combating the interconnected criminal economies of organized

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crime, human trafficking, and sexual exploitation.

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Marcel has earned a global recognition for his leadership, investigative expertise, and

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research contributions.

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His extensive background as a police investigator, hostage and suicide negotiator, and criminal

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case consultant continues to inform and inspire his work today.

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As a keynote speaker and published author, Marcel shares his expertise on international

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stages to train professionals from diverse disciplines across more than 30 countries.

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Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Thank you, Chris.

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Thank you for having me, and hello to your viewers.

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It's an absolute pleasure and honor to have you here.

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We mentioned before the show how this is such a huge topic for me and for my listeners,

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and so thank you for what you do, and thank you for taking time to talk to us today.

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There are so many places we could start a conversation, and I'd originally tended to

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dive into the harmful effects of pornography later in our conversation, but there was a

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shocking and disturbing article titled Sex Without Women by Caitlin Flanagan in The Atlantic

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last week.

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It begins with the question, quote, what happens when men prefer porn, end quote, and discusses

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how the overwhelming prevalence of online pornography has changed relationships between

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young men and young women.

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Flanagan writes, watching online porn has become most adolescents' first sexual experience.

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The average 14-year-old boy today has seen more hardcore porn than all the American fighting

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forces in the Second World War, end quote.

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And then she goes on, because of the internet's power to desensitize people and wear down

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their natural responses to shocking things, and because of the way these algorithms work,

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young people quickly proceed to more and more extreme videos.

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And as it has always been, these earliest experiences of sexual events pass deeply into

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their sense of what sex should be, end quote.

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Can you pick up that thread and take us further into that question of what happens when men

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prefer porn, and what's going on with teenagers and porn?

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Well I think, yeah, it's a sobering statement, and just the vignette that you used there,

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Chris.

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But I mean, as a parent, obviously it's completely understandable to feel alarmed, you know,

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because easily kids stumble into the world of online pornography, and as you rightfully

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say, a lot of these exposures begins at a very, very young age.

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And you know, the research is also very clear about the risks and the harms of pornography,

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and it's never just a benign viewing of obscene content.

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But there's very real impact on the brain, and the way we men view the world, and obviously

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there's a separate conversation about women as well.

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There's also new evidence that suggests that there's an increasing pornography consumption

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among women as well, which is also something that we, you know, you could probably draw

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a correlation or nexus with increasing number of women.

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We've seen recently some of these female teachers also being, you know, apprehended

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for sexual abuse complaints against, you know, scholars, so there's something to unpack just

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on that issue when it comes to women and pornography consumption.

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But just back to your question, very real world effects, Chris, and it never stays there.

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There's also evidence suggesting and showing how people act out on that, you know, behaviorally,

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the correlation with sexual aggression, and also the content of the pornography and the

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different themes that we see in pornography is really nauseating and extremely problematic.

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And you know, now we've read a lot over the last two, three years about Pornhub and, you

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know, the realities and the crimes associated with this massive pornography host, just the

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criminal content on there from child sexual abuse material, bestiality, rape videos.

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So you know, it's tragic, but also people viewing that, it's not benign.

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And a lot of that is internalized, and there's enough research showing how people act out

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and also the link with sexual aggression.

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So deeply problematic, Chris.

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Well, and this article I just quoted really hit me because, you know, my wife and I have

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a son who literally just turned 13 a week ago.

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And so he's right there at that age.

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And then you touched about how some female teachers have been getting arrested and caught

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and indicted for things that they've done with students.

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Just over a year ago, there was a big FBI sting in South Florida called March Sadness,

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the time with March Madness for men's basketball.

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33 people were arrested, teachers, high school coaches, members of clergy.

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People who are in your community, people you trust your children with every day.

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And it shows that it can happen in your community.

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And so I think just having this conversation, this dialogue, I want people to open their

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eyes, open their ears, and to realize it is happening in your front and backyard.

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No one is, you know, going to avoid this.

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Yeah.

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You know, coming back to children, I mean, children are, you know, digital natives, you

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know, surrounded by devices, smartphones, tablets, laptops, gaming consoles, and smart

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TVs.

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And, you know, those, you know, those tools, I mean, they are wonderful and just, you know,

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innovation, human innovation, ingenuity, which allows us to create these things.

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But they are also, you know, they also do act as gateways to, you know, to the Internet.

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You know, we've published a one-page research document about two or three years ago where

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we talk about the most dangerous playground is literally nowadays in the pockets of children.

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And you know, hardcore pornography is really is readily available, it's frequently violent,

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and it's poorly controlled.

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And I mean, you know, we all know if we think about the formative years and, you know, just

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the different developmental stages of children and how the brain develops, you know, the

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impact is significant.

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So you know, I think we should all be far, far more serious and indignant about these

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things.

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So these are very, very real existential risks and harms and threats that's, yeah, that's

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literally in our pockets.

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You know, again, as a parent of a teenager, are there parental controls that we can put

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on their devices?

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I know I Googled, you know, how to put on parental controls when my son got an iPhone,

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but they're smarter than us.

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We know that.

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They find their workarounds.

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Are there things that we can download or have our phones control theirs?

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Yeah, Chris, you know, to your point, it's, you know, there's several tools and applications

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out there that one can use that's downloadable.

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Some of these are free, and some of them comes at a cost.

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But the problem here is, unfortunately, this is where we should be pushing back.

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You know, this should not be primarily the parents' responsibilities.

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To your point is, you know, children grows up in this whole new world, and they are,

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you know, more often than not, they are more tech-savvy than parents.

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And often these, on a device level, you know, some of these device and app level, sometimes

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they make it so difficult and so cumbersome for parents to navigate.

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I mean, there was once about two years ago, we did a little internal study, and we kind

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of counted about 14 or 15 steps that a parent had to take in order to make a device safe

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for the children.

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So parents feel overwhelmed, you know, and anxious just about the thought about their

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children, even though a child may not yet have a phone, but being among their peers

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where phones are so readily accessible.

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So it is a problem.

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But again, you know, this is again where we need to start holding accountable, you know,

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big tech, the technology companies out there.

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So and that's the fight in which we are in, but you're right, I mean, again, parents feeling

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overwhelmed out there.

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Well, parents also need to realize, you know, Johnny and Susie, just because they're cute

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little Johnny and Susie, they might be looking for this stuff too.

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And so they can't just assume, not my kid, somebody else's.

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Absolutely.

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And so as great as someone's kid can be, they can also be surfing for different things.

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Yeah.

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That's very true.

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I know you work on the international level, but you mentioned Pornhub specifically and

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some other sites like that.

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I know there are different state laws where you would need to register your age and I

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think sign up with your name or email or something like that, you know, to become verified

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if you're approved that you're 18.

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Are you working with states on that or should there be a federal policy for that?

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And again, this is just your opinion.

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Sure.

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I mean, you know, again, when we're talking about the issue of age verification, you know,

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we have in January 15th, you know, our case was, you know, we acted as an amicus in a

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federal matter for age verification.

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So I mean, ultimately, you know, this should be something we address on a, you know, on

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a national level.

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But there's good things that are happening at state level.

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And you know, the current court challenge, the Supreme Court challenge, where we are,

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one of the, you know, submitted the amicus brief was in response to the Texas age verification

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law.

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So, you know, so it's common sense.

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Age verification should be common sense.

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And I think a lot of these big tech companies are pushing back and they are using all of

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these, you know, these theoretical arguments about, you know, really theoretical about

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free speech.

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At the end of the day, when you create something, we think about a vehicle, a motor vehicle,

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a car.

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You know, if you know that that car is able to do harm with a wittingly unwittingly on

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the side of the driver or the engine, where some malfunction can occur, you know, that's

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why there are breaks.

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That's why there are safety belts.

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That's why there are these rigorous, rigorous tests and standards that any product for that

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matter goes through in order to make sure that the end user is safe.

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And really, age verification is just one of those, you know, and there's so many examples

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of the fact that it can become a reality and be non-invasive and not infringe on any of

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these rights.

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So a lot of these arguments is really purely distractions.

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And it's just a way to try and circumvent measures in place to avoid accountability

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because ultimately we know that we will succeed on the issue of age verification.

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And when that happens, technology companies, developers will be held accountable.

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And I think that is the long game that we are in.

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And, you know, opposition to these laws are, you know, they also know that ultimately accountability

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is going to come and it is going to impact the bottom dollar.

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So yeah.

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And to your point about the technology companies and their algorithms, you know, it's baseball

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season here in the Northeast and my son's starting baseball and a few weeks ago we got

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him a new baseball bat.

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And the next day I log into wallstreetjournal.com and the top banner was the actual baseball

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bat that I bought the day before.

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It's crazy, Chris.

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And you know what?

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I'm going to use one example, a similar example.

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About three months ago, I spoke to a family member in South Africa and we spoke about

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some random thing.

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The issue of a lack of sleep came up and we just had a conversation for about seven minutes.

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That was a Saturday morning.

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I was walking my dog.

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I went up the stairs into the condo and it was about 11 o'clock EST translated to South

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Africa.

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And it was about 5 p.m. in South African time and there was going to be rugby on.

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I was switching to rugby through a YouTube channel exactly.

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That's what I got fed.

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You know, are you having problems sleeping, you know?

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Sleeping medication and doctors and prescriptions and all of these things coming in.

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So it's incredible.

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It's incredible how, you know, the landscape in which we are and it's deeply, deeply concerning

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and problematic.

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And no one's immune to it.

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Yeah.

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Back to Flanagan's article, she also writes, quote, you can't spend 15 minutes scrolling

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through a porn site without coming across a video in which a woman seems to be not performing

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fear or pain, but actually experiencing those things.

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If you're one of those people who enjoy watching coarse sex, you'll never be bored for a second

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of your life.

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As far as the moral equations of watching porn go, the one that matters is are you excited

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by the obvious abuse of women or have you learned to countenance that abuse as a necessary

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cost of your own pleasure and which of those is worse, end quote.

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Would you speak to the crux of that question and the minds of males who consume that material?

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And I say males, you know, men and boys as well.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, it comes also down to a few things.

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I mean, one of those are habituation, you know, and, you know, and there's again, there's

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plenty of research on this.

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You know, it starts off with, you know, there is this word, we don't often use it at Nicosi,

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but, you know, it's soft porn or what they call vanilla porn, which is, you know, barely

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shows any nudity and the more consumption there is, the more, you know, the more explicit

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the material becomes and, you know, the more arousal, you know, happens in tandem with

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how, you know, concomitant to how explicit and violent material becomes.

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And the brain, you know, obviously the tendencies habituation happens and we also know about

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neuroplasticity and how the brain can be altered by things like pornography and what we view.

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And yeah, to your point, it's at the end of the day, there really is a demand for these

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kind of material.

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And again, it never stops there, you know, you actually have people being aroused and

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this is very disturbing, but by rape scenes, you know, by things like urophilia and coprophilia

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where there are these extreme and obscene, you know, images and content being played

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out, even bestiality.

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And there's also obviously the whole thing with sexual aggression.

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So it's deeply troubling and that's obviously where, you know, problematic pornography use

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comes in, where there is this almost this, you know, this physical need that is being

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developed in order to watch this material.

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And again, it never stays there, there's always some form of acting out that does happen.

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So this is not benign.

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You know, marijuana has been described as a gateway drug.

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You know, we've been talking a little bit about sex offenders.

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Is there any evidence that pornography is a gateway drug to acting out antisocial or

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violent behavior?

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Well, there really is, there is really a lot of evidence that points to that, Chris.

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You know, we've, I mean, there's just one example entitled male peer support and sexual

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assault, the relationship between high profile high school sports participation and sexual

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predatory behavior.

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And just one of the things that they found in that study was, you know, men who more

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frequently consume pornography more readily expressed a greater desire to act out the

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sexual fantasies involving coerced, intoxicated or forced sex and sexual assault.

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If they obviously were assured that they would not be caught, you know, that's one of the

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studies.

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And then there's also, you know, we I'm just giving you a little bit of a heads up here,

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but we we've just concluded a study on five ways that pornography and the pornography

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industry contributes to sex trafficking.

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And I'm just going to list five of them for you.

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And I've seen this.

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I'll just quickly qualify this, Chris.

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I've done, you know, I've infiltrated criminal networks in my work as a former law enforcement

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officer and a lot of the work in one way, shape or form, it would involve a brothel,

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you know, and I cannot recall ever going into a brothel, you know, as a as a law enforcement

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officer where there was not a constant stream of pornography playing either in the reception

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area, the lobby area of the brothel or in the different rooms.

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So pornography is a consistent and a coherent thread in all cases related to brothels that

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I've investigated and responded to, but also sex trafficking, you know, and just some of

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the points that that we that we've documented and we'll we'll release this soon as part

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of a fact sheet.

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But five of them are pornography is used to groom young victims of sex trafficking who

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lack sexual experience.

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That's the one.

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The second one is women, men and girls and boys are sex trafficked for the production

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of pornography.

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Again, pornography kind of in the middle of this entire ecosystem of abuse and sex trafficking.

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The third one, pornography is used as advertising for those sex traffic within prostitution

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marketplaces.

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And then these two are very interesting.

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Pornography fuels the demand for prostitution and as a result, it fuels sex trafficking.

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And it's also shown, research has shown that men who are frequently pornography users are

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three times more likely to purchase sex than other men.

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And then the fifth one, some men who purchase sexual access to people in the sex trade use

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pornography to build sexual excitement in advance and may act out what they see in pornography.

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And again, I've seen this in my work where, you know, where men would enter into brothels

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and they would inquire whether they are, you know, sometimes they ask very explicitly for

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somebody that's of a younger age, which inevitably denotes a child and somebody who's willing

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to do some extreme things, you know, and some of those I've mentioned, you know, are things

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like coprophilia, urophilia, where, and this is things they see on pornography, you know,

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where they are sexually aroused by being able to urinate on another person or able to defecate

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on another person.

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These are extreme things, but nobody is born with that kind of pathology and a lot of this

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is absolutely filled and amplified by pornography.

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And some of these themes, when we think about strangulation and even race-related themes,

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I mean, serial rape, I mean, one of these things in, you know, I've investigated cases

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of serial rape, you know, when you have the same offender, well, you don't know yet it's

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the same offender, but we talk about modus operandi and we talk about a specific signature

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and a signature is that one thing that just literally stands out.

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And I remember this one matter that I was involved in is that the person would always

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ask, he would walk past a woman and would ask, you know, do you have $2 that you can

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borrow me?

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And then that would translate into a rape, there's always a strangulation, and there's

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always some reference to asking the person to be positioned in a specific way.

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And pornography usually fuels these things.

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Nobody's born with these ideas or concepts.

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So, yeah, it's pervasive and it has very, very real world impact on sexual abuse and

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exploitation, Chris.

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It's just sickening to listen to all this, and we've got another half an hour of the

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show left, so I'm hoping I can make it.

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The National Center on Sexual Exploitation has been around for a long, long time, but

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many people, and especially people in our audience who live in other countries, may

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not be aware of the center.

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Would you share its history with us?

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Sure, yeah.

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So, you know, I think it was in the fall of 1962, an anonymous individual placed sadomasochistic

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material on the corner, I think it was on the outside of St. Ignatius School on Manhattan's

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East Side.

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And what happened then, a 10-year-old child found this material and showed it to other

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school children.

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So the mother confiscated this material and she brought it to a meeting of mothers, and

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as a result, one of Nicosia's, you know, one of our first heroes here was Reverend

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Morton Hill, was asked by his superior to look into the matter, to see how widespread

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this issue of pornography is, and he then investigated and recruited other religious

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leaders to look into the issue of pornography.

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So over the years, you know, it started off initially known as Operation Yorkville in

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New York, and then, you know, the name went into morality in the media.

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And over the years, you know, it was, you know, it was kind of, the focus was, at its

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core, was the issue of pornography.

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But I think our former leaders and members of Nicosia soon learned that pornography is

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this one cog in a system of, as part of a web of sexual exploitation.

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So over this past six decades, you know, we've learned that none of these forms of sexual

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abuse or exploitation ever exists in his own private universe.

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Pornography doesn't, child-on-child sexual abuse doesn't, sex trafficking doesn't, prostitution

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doesn't.

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All of these in one way, shape, or form overlaps and informs the other.

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So over a period of six decades plus, you know, that's been our mission is to unravel

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and, you know, expose this web of sexual exploitation.

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And this all started in 1962.

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And then we became the National Center on Sexual Exploitation in about 2015, and made

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it very, very clear that our focus is the web of sexual exploitation.

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We have a variety of tactics in which we address this issue.

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And that has really been informed by decades of research experience, and also grappling

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with the mercurial nature of these issues, and obviously the overlap of modern society

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and technology.

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So those were the humble beginnings, Chris.

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And how has sexual exploitation evolved over those six decades?

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And how has the center evolved accordingly to take on the sex industry?

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Great question.

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So how has it evolved?

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I think what we are seeing now is I often speak about the, you know, the globalization

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of indifference.

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And unfortunately, you know, there's definitely been this surge in indifference, I would argue,

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and we see that.

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You could definitely draw these inferences from research as well, when online pornography

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exploded in the early 2000s.

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Where, again, when we talk about how people act out sexual objectification, we often see

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this in the media, we see this in modern culture, lyrics in music.

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So what we began to see is just this fusion of all things sexual objectification, obscene,

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and indifference, you know, because again, to our earlier conversation about what pornography

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does to the brain and how that informs real world behaviors.

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And that just, you know, that just create this conviction that we need to have a multi-pronged

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approach to do this, Chris, you know, so we combat the intersection of sexual exploitation

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through corporate advocacy.

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We do public policy, civil litigation, research, and then obviously also our parents' center,

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which we hope will launch later in this year.

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But again, you know, every one of those strategies, you know, the one informs the other, and,

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you know, we see that work.

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And ultimately, our main focus is the mass scale prevention of sexual exploitation.

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And it can be done by using these different prongs, you know, you can actually address

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the issue at all the different levels, and ultimately it comes down to a systemic addressing

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of the issue of sexual exploitation.

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You've mentioned some of the research the center does in the white paper.

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Where can people learn more?

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Oh, well, you know, all of this is on our website, endexploitation.org.

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Please go to that website.

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I mean, all our research is there, our publications.

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We have some amazing publications coming down the pike.

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Just some of our recent publications, you know, revolved around issues like demand reduction,

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the role of men in purchasing sexual access to women and children, how to end that.

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That was a federal study.

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We did that on a National Institute of Justice grant.

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And then we have a big, big research project that's launching in the next 35 days.

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And that's called Beyond a Fantasy.

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And it's on the issue of pornography, but also image-based sexual abuse.

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And then we veer into the issue of artificial intelligence and, you know, synthetic materials.

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So all of that is available on our website, the National Center on Sexual Exploitation's

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website, endexploitation.org.

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But our research also appears on academic platforms, Chris, like ResearchGate and academia.edu.

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So yeah.

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Great.

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Thank you for that.

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What are the biggest challenges the Center is currently tackling in the fight against

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sexual exploitation?

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I think some of the biggest challenges at the moment, I think I'm going to just touch

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on, again, on, you know, the globalization of indifference, you know, getting people

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to see what we've seen and observed and researched over the last six decades.

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And I think media, mainstream media, popular culture often is, and the message that people

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are bombarded with is totally antithetical to what we see every day in our work.

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And, you know, whether it's research, whether it is our civil lawsuits, you know, once you

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go into the rudiments of these cases, then you do realize that something like a brothel,

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which a lot of people globally, and there's also been a move locally in America to call

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for the decriminalization of prostitution, some segments, right?

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It's definitely not a widespread view that something like that needs to happen, but there's

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constant lobbying in every state for prostitution to become legal or decriminalized.

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And they often use these very kind of very romantic, hypholated language, and often,

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you know, the pretty woman movie scenario comes across where people can really do this

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and sell, you know, their bodies, and it comes at no harm, and that men are just kind of

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benign, you know, guys that's just doing what guys normally do.

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So there's all of these rape myths that is entirely, you know, there's a lot.

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So these two pieces just doesn't correlate or align.

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And so that is one of the biggest challenges is having people see from moving people from

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a no to a maybe, and from a maybe to a yes, this is a problem.

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And yes, I have a responsibility as a parent, as a husband, you know, as a religious spiritual

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leader, as a teen, not to entertain, not indulge in these things, because there are

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real world consequences.

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But you know, so we often find ourselves working against the stream of popular culture.

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And what is put out there, so it's a constant kind of these two irreconcilable ideological

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framings of what is good, what is right, and what is dignity.

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We are in the business of protecting human dignity at its core.

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And what the world and mainstream media often sends out is entirely conflicted to that.

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You've mentioned how the National Center on Sexual Exploitation takes a multi-pronged

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approach to combating sexual exploitation through policy advocacy, legal action, corporate

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accountability, survivor support, and public awareness.

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I always like to take these one at a time, though I might not have them in the order

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of importance.

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So first, policy and legislative advocacy, the Take It Down Act.

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How does the center work with lawmakers and government agencies to shape policies?

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Great question.

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So again, we are a nonpartisan organization, so I think that's often, you know, we believe

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that has really worked well over the last, you know, 60 plus years, Chris, is the fact

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that, you know, we go out of our way to make sure that we, you know, pursue policies where

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they are widespread buying.

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And that's just on the issue of nonpartisanship.

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The issue of the Take It Down Act is just such a great example of unanimous kind of

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buying from people on all sides of the political spectrum.

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The same with the CDA 230, the Communications and Decency Act, which really gives immunity

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to big tech platforms, you know, hosting and perpetuating this content online.

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You know, everybody on that, I mean, we were in the Senate Judiciary hearing when these

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big technology, you know, CEOs Mark Zuckerberg, X, Twitter, TikTok, when the parents came

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into the room and everybody had the pictures of their children, you know, who are 16 forever

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or 17 forever, you know, many of them died by suicide.

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And that's been very powerful, seeing how we can make a difference by getting people

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together into the same room and really listening to parents, you know, listening to those very

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real world stories of a child losing their life.

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So we try our very best to follow this approach and it's really worked well.

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So ultimately, from a public policy perspective, it's fighting bad laws and making sure that

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we are able to pass good laws.

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And the Take It Down Act is just one of those that we are very, very excited about, yeah.

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And how about the new plague that we touched on briefly before about sextortion?

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Oh.

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I recently read an article, I forget where it was, I think it was People Magazine, about

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how teenage boys are the ones with the highest suicide rate right now because they're getting

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lured in by people who come off as being a friend and this one particular 14 year old

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boy in Wisconsin, it happened with a matter of hours of them luring him in and just him

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taking his life.

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It's very, very sad, Chris.

451
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:48,400
So just in a year, I think it's between 2023 and 2024, there was 150% increase in reports

452
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,600
on the issue of sextortion.

453
00:34:52,600 --> 00:35:00,600
So yes, I mean, you know, what this fundamentally comes down to is that somebody, it's usually,

454
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:06,840
let's say, a young girl befriending somebody on the other side of the line, which could

455
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,520
be a teenage boy.

456
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,480
But this girl isn't really a real person or a real girl, you know, there's a predator.

457
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,920
And we've seen the research, we've worked with, I've personally worked with some of

458
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:27,560
these criminal networks, you know, Nigerian criminal networks on the African continent.

459
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,560
But more of the recent cases has directly been connected to some of these criminal networks,

460
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:41,040
you know, so you would have somebody reaching out as purporting to be a 14 year old girl.

461
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,120
There's a relationship starting and then there's a request from the girl, which is obviously

462
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:53,000
the predator, the perpetrator, for the boy to send explicit images.

463
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,480
Those images are then passed along.

464
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:02,120
And as soon as that image is submitted, and as soon as that image lands in the, you know,

465
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:08,160
the proverbial hands of the perpetrator, he makes himself known or not.

466
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:13,120
But what happens is that's where there is a request for money.

467
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:20,360
And we're not talking about small, you know, 10 or $20, I mean, $1,000, $3,000, $5,000.

468
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:27,640
And if that money is not paid over, that these images will then be released to their friends

469
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,000
and their connections.

470
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,640
And we've seen, I mean, Paul Refill, he's an open source intelligence analyst, and he's

471
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,120
done phenomenal work on the issue of sextortion.

472
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:49,760
And there are several examples, Chris, where a connection with a user, a minor, let's say

473
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,800
a teenage boy, 16 years old, on the one end of the phone, with that connection, let's

474
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,880
say hypothetically at 11 o'clock, that connection was made.

475
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,000
And at 11 o'clock, the report was built.

476
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,200
Five minutes later, the image was sent.

477
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:10,920
Literally within 20, within 30 minutes later, that child is no more.

478
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:20,040
So there's so many examples out there of a death by suicide that happens within 20, 30

479
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,280
minutes, 40 minutes, and it's tragic.

480
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,520
You touched earlier by the legal action you're part of with the amicus brief in the Supreme

481
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:28,520
Court.

482
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:33,800
You've just touched on corporate accountability, but how about survivor support?

483
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,800
How do you get engaged with that?

484
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,360
You know, how do you connect with the survivors of sex trafficking and pornography, and what

485
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,880
support do you provide?

486
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:41,880
Great question.

487
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:47,920
I mean, at the end of the day, we truly believe survivors and their voices and their lived

488
00:37:47,920 --> 00:38:00,080
experiences are extremely important, is unmissable when a targeted and well-informed policy and

489
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,880
new laws are created.

490
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,360
We are not a frontline service provider.

491
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:16,320
We don't provide a frontline psychosocial services and support to survivors, but we

492
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,120
do include survivors in every aspect of our work.

493
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:29,440
From a policy perspective, at state level, testifying in support or against a specific

494
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:36,160
act, we always have survivors at the front end testifying, and we provide that support.

495
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:44,520
We assist with the briefing and enable survivors to get out there and to get into those very

496
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,960
important platforms and arenas where their voices are to be heard.

497
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,520
And obviously, with our law center, when we talk about our civil litigation, you know,

498
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,920
we are representing survivors or Jane Doe's as we refer to them.

499
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:06,720
You know, in the X-Videos case, we've got a case against X or Twitter that's still ongoing.

500
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:13,160
We have the case against, you know, a brothel, two brothels in Nevada.

501
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,720
We are involved with Andrew and Tristan Tate matter, these two influences, that's a separate

502
00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:21,440
conversation as well, very problematic.

503
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,160
But in all of these cases, we have plaintiffs and we represent them.

504
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:32,320
So that's how we work alongside survivors, representing them and making sure that they

505
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,040
get justice that they deserve.

506
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,600
And also in our research, you know, when we've completed a research study, you know, we would

507
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:45,440
make sure to make that available to the survivor community to speak into that, you know, and

508
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,160
to poke holes if holes needs to be poked into it.

509
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,120
So it's very important, you know, survivors have that lived experiences and they, you

510
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:59,200
know, they have that insider perspective that many researchers or advocates or policymakers

511
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:00,000
simply don't have.

512
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,240
And I always tell people, we all have blind spots and we all don't always know when we

513
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:07,200
don't know and survivors helps us with that.

514
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,320
And certainly there's public awareness.

515
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,080
Appearing in Next Steps Forward raises public awareness, but we know that that's not enough.

516
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:15,200
Yeah.

517
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,600
What are your most effective public awareness channels?

518
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,000
What messages do you want to stay with people?

519
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:29,600
Well, the one that is forthcoming on Thursday and Thursday, we are launching our Dirty Dozen

520
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,520
list, our annual Dirty Dozen list.

521
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:39,520
And I think one of the first messages, I mean, at a meta level is to say that, man, a world

522
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,520
free from sexual abuse and exploitation is possible.

523
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,960
It's not a pipe dream.

524
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:51,440
There are very real things that can be done and happen.

525
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,800
And that's on all of these levels, legal, you know, we often talk about the PESTEL model.

526
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:03,120
Now, PESTEL, it's P-E-S-T-E-L, that's usually the model that we use to do scenario planning.

527
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,040
I've done scenario planning in my life.

528
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,800
And basically what that denotes, you've got the political, the economic, the sociological,

529
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,960
the technological, the economic and the legal environment.

530
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:24,080
And that in every one of these spheres, that active citizenry is critical.

531
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,400
And the issue of fighting sexual exploitation overlaps in all of these spheres.

532
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:35,760
So and by addressing all of these spheres through civil litigation, public policy,

533
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:41,440
corporate advocacy, research and our parent center, that you can fundamentally move the

534
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:47,600
needle and on a mass scale level, a world free from sexual abuse and exploitation is possible.

535
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:48,640
So it's not a pipe dream.

536
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,360
So the first thing is for people to know, you can actually do something about this.

537
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:56,400
This can really happen.

538
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:04,720
And the other one is that people, parents have immense power in speaking into and hold

539
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:07,680
accountable big technology platforms.

540
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:16,240
We know that big technology and big tech, they don't fear law enforcement.

541
00:42:16,240 --> 00:42:18,480
There's very little that they fear.

542
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,880
They don't self-police because nobody's really holding them accountable.

543
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:29,680
But what they do fear, Chris, is when that day arrives, and it's going to come, where a single

544
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:37,760
parent can step into a court and provide the evidence of platform A, B or C or D that was

545
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:48,320
directly, indirectly complicit in a situation of harm that befell a minor and that hypothetically

546
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,000
or real in the case of sex torture ultimately led to somebody's death.

547
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,240
We are not talking about thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

548
00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:59,600
These are going to be multi-million dollar claims.

549
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,360
And I think that is something that big tech fears.

550
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,280
And it's not just going to be one parent.

551
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,520
There are going to be countless parents that's going to be empowered to do this.

552
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,000
So the message there to parents is everybody can do something.

553
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:21,280
You know, active citizenry, you know, be involved with signing these sign-ons and these petitions.

554
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:28,560
And that's why we are there to hold parents' arms up in their respective journeys and then

555
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:36,240
grappling with navigating this very, very complex landscape of technology, policy, law,

556
00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:38,800
and again, the globalization of indifference.

557
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,640
Because you need people that sincerely care and that sincerely

558
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,800
vested in bringing about this world that we truly believe in.

559
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,880
You know, and to that point, in today's world, everyone's busy.

560
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,720
Everyone's tugged in a thousand different directions,

561
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,760
but you have to be involved in your children's lives.

562
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,640
Check their phones, check their tablets, whether they're asleep or not,

563
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,400
but make that part of the policy just so you know exactly what's going on to hopefully prevent

564
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,600
some of these sex torture and other types of tragic events.

565
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,960
A moment ago, you mentioned the Dirty Dozen list.

566
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,600
Who is typically on that list?

567
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,280
And are there repeat offenders on there?

568
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:22,560
Yeah, I mean, you know, we've, again, we've got an entire page for the Dirty Dozen list,

569
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,800
you know, and, you know, everybody's been on the list pretty much, you know,

570
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:27,840
all technology companies.

571
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:37,120
I mean, Meta has been on there more than once, you know, Apple, Spotify, TikTok, Cash App.

572
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:46,080
So, you know, and these are all platforms that we show through actual evidence-based research,

573
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:53,520
how they enable and perpetuate sexual exploitation on their platforms.

574
00:44:53,520 --> 00:45:00,000
I mean, you know, just one example, and that's also where the Take It Down Act comes in,

575
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:08,800
you know, where an example would be where, you know, non-consensual image-based sexual abuse

576
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:17,760
content has been uploaded by a third party on a platform and where a victim who, you know,

577
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:25,280
who fell victim to that illegal content being uploaded on a platform has tried for months and

578
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,400
even years on end to get that off Chris.

579
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:35,280
And with, you know, no solution, you know, and literally having to live

580
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:41,200
knowing that I've actually got a response from some of these platforms saying, well, it doesn't,

581
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:51,360
you know, it's not against our, you know, our regulations and laws as a company.

582
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:57,520
So there are some of these examples, and so you can imagine the harm, you know, and the trauma,

583
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,240
it's like this digital tattoo that you carry, and that's where the Take It Down Act will now come in.

584
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:09,040
And that's about, you know, first and foremost, you know, age verification plays into that,

585
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,800
but also that this content must be removed within 48 hours.

586
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:20,800
So, yes, but some of the successes we've had over the years, I mean,

587
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:29,120
those include, we've had transformative victories with Google, Netflix, Yilton worldwide, Verizon,

588
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:34,240
Walmart, and including the US Department of Defense, you know.

589
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:39,760
So, you know, the Dirty Dozen list has really had a phenomenal impact.

590
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:46,800
And just to give you a heads up, this year, we are probably addressing one of the biggest,

591
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:54,000
biggest giants that if this giant falls, you know, the echo and the reverberation will be felt

592
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,040
globally, but it's a big one.

593
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:02,480
So I hope some of the viewers and the listeners could join us on Thursday.

594
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,360
And that's endexploitation.org.

595
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,720
That's endexploitation.org, yeah.

596
00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:18,960
And, you know, you can just say NCOSE, N-C-O-S-E, Dirty Dozen list 2025, and it will,

597
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,320
you'll definitely be directed to the website.

598
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,760
So I know that the Take It Down Act has passed the Senate.

599
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,600
Now it's back in the Congress.

600
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,080
Do we expect it to be passed?

601
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,560
Is President Trump going to see this anytime soon?

602
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,040
Who are the cheerleaders on the Hill in both chambers?

603
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:44,960
Oh, I mean, we are just in awe of Senator Cruz and Klobuchar that championed this.

604
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,120
So massive kudos to them, Chris.

605
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:55,680
But yeah, I was in the room about three weeks ago when the first lady, Melania Trump, me and

606
00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:03,600
our VP, Dr. Eleanor Gaytan, we were invited to be in the room where she briefed the media.

607
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,160
There was obviously more media in the room than anybody else.

608
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:14,960
But we were there when she gave her vote of support for the Take It Down Act.

609
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:25,120
And she did a phenomenal job in just laying out this harm and just the mean-spiritedness

610
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:26,400
of what is out there.

611
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:35,120
On both her left and to her right-hand side, she had 10 survivors of image-based sexual

612
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:41,360
abuse that each in a very, very courageous way shared their own experience with this

613
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:48,800
illicit content being non-consensually uploaded on these platforms and just the incredible

614
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,040
trauma that goes along with that.

615
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,840
So she almost took in this mother figure.

616
00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:00,720
She was incredibly articulate in how she laid out the problem, but at the same time, just

617
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:07,440
her generosity of spirit just shone through in the way that she encouraged just these

618
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:11,600
four young women, young teens that were sitting next to her.

619
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,440
So she's a hero in all of this.

620
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:20,800
And I think, Eleanor, one of our public policy people mentioned she can't remember ever a

621
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:30,160
first lady standing up and speaking and giving her support so strongly for a specific piece

622
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:34,880
of legislation that we hope and believe will pass this year.

623
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,520
We mentioned briefly before the show that people think this doesn't happen in their

624
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,440
neighborhood, that it's only in the shadows, it's not going to affect them.

625
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,840
But how do these people know where to find the sex traffickers right there in their own

626
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:48,400
communities?

627
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,680
Again, that's where the technology comes in, right?

628
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:58,160
We know that sex buyers, people that purchase sexual access to women and children and to

629
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:04,880
other men as well, the way they communicate, there's always an online platform through

630
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:11,280
which they are able to reach traffickers, pimps, and we all have mobile phones as well.

631
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:20,800
So it's a criminal ecosystem that allows these crimes to flourish.

632
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:30,880
But again, just to your point, what is very clear is sex traffickers intentionally offers

633
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:37,520
children and women to be raped at a price and men, those who purchase sexual access,

634
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,400
intentionally pays to rape.

635
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:47,840
Women and children, they care precious little in terms of who and how they harm people.

636
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:56,640
And usually there is an online connection and people talk, people self-organize and

637
00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,760
they create these criminal economies, which in their own way self-organize.

638
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:09,600
But one of our biggest strategies here is the issue of consumer level demand.

639
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:13,520
And we always say without sex buyers, sex traffickers cannot exist.

640
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:20,880
It's sex buyers who creates the market forces and it fuels the market forces that creates

641
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:22,480
the roles of traffickers.

642
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:29,680
So without a man purchasing sexual access to a woman or child, without that person,

643
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,920
a trafficker cannot exist.

644
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:41,120
And every sex trafficking act has been paid by a dollar from a male sex buyer.

645
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:46,960
So I always say sex buyers are the critical missing link in this equation.

646
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,040
Marcel, we only have a few minutes left.

647
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,640
Take us to the end of the show with some words of wisdom and how we can help support your

648
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,240
cause and end this devastating crisis.

649
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:04,080
Well, I think firstly, I mean, please do follow us on social media.

650
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:11,600
You know, we are on X, Nekosi is on LinkedIn as well.

651
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,440
They can follow me on LinkedIn as well.

652
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:19,840
I am on there and I regularly post weekly about the work we do and always take action.

653
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:25,120
I mean, on our website, again, indexrotation.org, you know, we always have an action page.

654
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:31,840
Whatever the issues are, if you're going to click on the issue of prostitution or pornography

655
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,760
or child on child sexual abuse, there's always an action page.

656
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:41,520
It will take you literally 15 seconds to complete one of those actions.

657
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,840
Please do take those actions, but also take hope.

658
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:49,760
I truly believe, Chris, there's a sleeping giant of common sense that's waking up finally.

659
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:55,920
And I think when that giant of common sense wakes up, it's going to dispel a lot of rape

660
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:56,320
myths.

661
00:52:56,320 --> 00:53:02,480
It's going to dispel a lot of ideas in terms of what masculinity is, what fatherhood is,

662
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:03,600
what leadership is.

663
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:11,440
And it's also going to dispel this idea that women in pornography enjoys the sex that people

664
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,720
see from the outside looking in, which is not the case.

665
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:20,080
So I just think that's kind of the very broad framing that I'm using of common sense that I

666
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,120
truly believe will eventually set in.

667
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:30,240
And I think we could expedite the rousing of that sleeping giant by everybody literally

668
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:33,680
taking action, you know, on our website, following our social media.

669
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:36,560
So, yeah, there's hope.

670
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:38,000
It's not a pipe dream.

671
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,040
This can happen.

672
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,120
Hear that, everybody listening?

673
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:41,840
Get on the website.

674
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,360
It's time to wake that sleeping giant.

675
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,360
Dr. Marcel Van Der Watt, thank you so much for the important work that you do and really

676
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:48,160
thank you for being here.

677
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:49,760
Thank you, Chris.

678
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:50,560
Thanks for having me.

679
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:52,640
I'm Chris Meek, run of time.

680
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:53,600
We'll see you next week.

681
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:54,960
Same time, same place.

682
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,320
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

683
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:06,080
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward.

684
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,320
Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m.

685
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,120
Pacific Time and 1 p.m.

686
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,960
Eastern Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

687
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:21,040
This week, make things happen in your life.

688
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:41,360
you