The Power of Emotional Strength w/ Kendall Gammon

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now, here is Chris Meek.

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Hello, you've tuned in to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward with Dr. Chris Meek,

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and I'm your host, Chris Meek.

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As always, it's a pleasure and an honor to have you with us.

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Our focus is on personal empowerment, a commitment to well-being, and the motivation to achieve

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more than ever thought possible.

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We have another exceptional guest this week.

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Kendall Gammon is an author and sought-after keynote speaker who played an astonishing

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15 years in the National Football League.

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Kendall attended Division II Pittsburgh State University.

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He was a captain for the 1991 National Champion Gorillas and was voted most inspirational

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by his teammates.

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He was a long snapper for the Pittsburgh Steelers, New Orleans Saints, and Kansas City Chiefs.

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He played in the 1995 Super Bowl and 2005 Pro Bowl.

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And Kansas City Chiefs fans know him for as many years as a game color analyst for the

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Chiefs Radio Network broadcast team.

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Kendall Gammon has written two books, Life's a Snap, Building on the Past to Improve Your

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Future, and Game Plan, Leadership Lessons from the Best of the NFL.

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And believe it or not, he juggles bowling balls.

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Kendall Gammon?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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It's awesome.

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Great to be here, Chris.

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Thanks for your time.

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I've really been looking forward to this conversation.

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Just fascinating career and background.

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So excited to have you here.

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So let's start off, Kendall.

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You went to Pittsburgh State.

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And for people like myself on the East Coast, that's Pittsburgh without an H, Kansas.

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Yep.

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Why'd you choose Pittsburgh State or did it choose you?

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I'm sorry.

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You know what?

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Honestly, I wanted to play basketball coming out of high school, but that wasn't going

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to get me to the pro level.

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You know, as a lot of kids dream.

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You want to play something pro.

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And football just kind of made sense.

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I was somewhat accomplished there as well.

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Really, I didn't get any full scholarship offers from Division I.

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They invited me to walk on, but they said I was not aggressive enough.

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And they were correct.

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And I was probably soft as well.

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So Division II, Pittsburgh State, that, and one other school were the only two that offered

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me.

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And even that was a partial scholarship.

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But it worked out.

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Clearly, it worked out.

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The Gorillas won the national championship when you were there.

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You were also a team captain your last two years.

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And again, you were voted most inspirational player at your senior year.

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Looking back, which one of those accomplishments means the most to you and why?

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Yeah, definitely the most inspirational.

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I think as an athlete, if you go to a college to play football or play a sport, you're probably

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pretty well accomplished in high school.

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And you know that maybe you're going to get some awards or whatever.

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And I got some awards at Pitt State also as far as, you know, All League, three years,

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All-American.

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But I'd never even thought about the most inspirational.

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I didn't even know there was an award.

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And what I realized was just my will to win and how unbelievably competitive I was in

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trying to motivate the team as well to win evidently shone through to the players to

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actually like that.

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I mean, I was shocked when that happened.

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You talk about motivating the team.

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Being a leader and motivating people, was that just something you inherently did?

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It was just a natural skill?

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Did you really focus on it?

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I think it was somewhat natural to a degree.

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I think sometimes when you're fairly accomplished and you love what you're doing, you do take

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it into your own hands.

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I think that's what I did for the one reason, which is I simply wanted to win.

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I didn't care about the accolades, whether I was getting accolades or not.

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I did at times.

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Sometimes I got looked over, but I just simply wanted to win that competitive spirit.

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And I think that's something that moves all of us in some direction.

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Yeah, no question.

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So, you know, I think that's something that moves all of us in some direction.

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So, you go from Pittsburgh, Kansas to Pittsburgh with an H, Pennsylvania, when the NFL's Pittsburgh Steelers drafted you.

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You were taking the late rounds, so you weren't a first-round draft pick, but you also weren't Mr. Relevant, the last man drafted.

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What's the feeling when a kid goes to Pittsburgh State and gets drafted in the NFL?

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You know what?

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It was not a dream come true.

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It was an opportunity come true because I hadn't made it in there, but at least I had that opportunity.

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And it was interesting.

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11th round pick, 291st person taken.

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So, right away feeling really good about myself.

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But the fact is, it was the mindset that I chose to approach it with, which is I had come out of the combine, which is kind of a tryout for the colleges.

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And I had been the first long snapper invited to a combine as well as the number one long snapper in the nation.

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So, what that got me was, as I said, 291st person taken.

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But, you know, in life, really all you can ask for is opportunities and then decide to go after it to your best efforts.

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If you fail and you tried, then at least you feel it.

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There's the pain.

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There's physical pain and there's the pain of regret.

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And I didn't want to have pain of regret.

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So, I literally changed my whole schedule, getting ready for the draft and everything.

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And, yeah, I wasn't Mr. Irrelevant, but I wasn't far off either.

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So, you mentioned 291st draft pick, taking the 11th round.

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But you weren't exactly drafted by the Steelers, were you?

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Even though you went to the team.

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No.

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No, I wasn't.

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It's interesting.

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I didn't learn this until…

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I'm not even sure what year it was I was into the Steelers.

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But Myron Cope, who was the iconic voice of the Steelers, much like Mitch Holtus would be the voice of the Chiefs.

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But anyhow, you're 291st person taken, 11th round, 12th round.

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You're kind of a camp body.

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You're not expected to make the team, quite honestly.

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And I understand this understandably so.

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So, the Steelers, I was told, had a little bit of tradition that they would let Myron Cope take the 11th and 12th round picks.

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So, I got the opportunity.

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But I wasn't even picked by the coaches.

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Now, I think they did have some input into it because they had lost games.

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They lost a chance to get to the playoffs the year before because of a bad snap.

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So, that was on the radar.

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But all the same, Myron took me aside one time at one of his golf tournaments and told me that.

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So, Myron Cope, obviously, was a famous guy who actually played a part in inventing the Steelers' terrible towel, which I see over your shoulder.

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I love that.

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So, you must have talked to Myron a time or two after you joined the Steelers.

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What was that like?

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You know what?

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He took a lot of pride in me because of the fact that I was a choice that had made it and that I was making a difference.

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And then, also, I think he had fun with it, too.

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Pittsburgh State, we're the Gorillas.

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The Gorillas is the only mascot in the U.S.

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Or Pittsburgh State is the only one that has the Gorillas mascot.

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So, he was on the radio and he would say, and, of course, everybody always goes Gammons instead of Gammon.

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Fortunately, there's only one of me.

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He would always say, and Gorilla Gammon's out onto the field to snap, either for field goals or punts.

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And he had a good time with it, and he was good to me.

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And did you guys develop a friendship over time?

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We really did.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, it's not like he went out of his way, but I appreciated it.

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And the organization, obviously, with the Roonies and the fact that I got to play with the Chiefs also and the Hunts, another family-run organization, top to bottom, left to right, is just aces.

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I was very fortunate.

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That's terrific.

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Have you ever heard of anyone else besides?

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Other than the Steelers' late-round draft pick being selected for the NFL draft the way you were chosen?

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No, I haven't, now that I think about it.

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And that being said, and, of course, now there's only seven rounds, so I'd be the equivalent of a free agent.

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But, no, I never did hear anything about that.

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But I'm sure when you got to round nine, round 10, 11, 12, there wasn't as much thought that had to be put into it.

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And probably at times, I bet head coaches probably let.

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Position coaches probably have maybe more input into it than they would have in the earlier rounds.

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So, clearly, long snappers are a special breed.

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People think of punters and kickers as being specialists, but the long snapper really is the specialist among specialists.

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Long snapping requires incredible precision.

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What's the story behind you becoming that?

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You know what?

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Yeah, it's interesting.

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Number one, we are kind of the specialist behind the specialist and hopefully make the job of the kicker and the punter and the holder easier.

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But for me, as a sophomore in the spring ball at Pittsburgh State University, I was kind of curious how the ball rotated out of the hands.

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I wasn't a long snapper, and I was messing around before practice, Chris.

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And a coach saw me, realized I could do it better than anybody they had, and came over and let me know that he wanted me to start long snapping.

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I let him know that I did not want to start long snapping.

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I was an offensive lineman.

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At my heaviest, I weighed 310 pounds.

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So, all offensive linemen are allergic to running.

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And, yeah, actually, at 310.

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If it wasn't bolted down, I was eating it, trying to stay heavy.

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So, I didn't want any part of it.

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But I'm a team player, and they kept after me.

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And, you know, again, if I don't listen to somebody identifying a strength in me that I didn't even see myself and that I wanted to have no part of, then we wouldn't be talking today.

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I wouldn't have had the chance to talk to thousands upon thousands of people that I have over my lifetime and the thousands that I'm going to speak to before I leave this place.

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And so, very fortunate.

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And if that's not a reason and an example to pay attention to what others see in you, then I don't know what is.

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And quite honestly, it's a good lesson to look at others and see what you see in them as well.

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There weren't always long snappers, or at least not long snapping specialists in the NFL.

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When did the art or science of long snapping come along, and how did it evolve to the point it is in today's game?

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Well, nowadays, there's a long snapper on every team.

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It's a specialty position, just like punter and kicker.

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When I came in, that was a specialty.

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That was not the case.

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There were a couple of guys who were kind of just long snappers, but they were playing offensive line as well.

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And really, that's what happened with me, because I was, like I said, I was an offensive lineman, and they thought I could be a backup and help out that way.

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And I probably could a little bit and did at times.

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But I did help usher in the age of, you know, when I came in, there was no just long snapper on the roster, on the flip card when they do everything before the games.

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And then when I left, every single one had one.

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And, you know, I'm proud of that.

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I think I helped usher that in.

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What unique skills or techniques are essential for the position, and what are the biggest challenges that a long snapper faces?

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Well, I don't think you can have an ego, because my motto is, you know, as a long snapper, was snap ball, get crap knocked out of you.

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So, you got your head between your legs, and they've got a running start at you there.

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You've got to snap the ball first before you do anything else.

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So, I think that's it.

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Having a resilient attitude of understanding.

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You know, quite honestly, for me, I'd rather them destroy me than try to go around me.

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Because if they try to go around me, they might get to the kick and block it.

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But if they use me as a speed bump, they're not getting there.

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But, again, just understanding that it's important.

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And that, quite honestly, the people on your team, the coaches, they appreciate it.

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But honestly, I mean, you know, with the Chiefs that I'm around every day, I mean, they're not coming, you know, if it's multiple choice.

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And they are.

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Are you coming to see A, Patrick Mahomes, B, Travis Kelsey, C, Kendall Gammon, or D, Taylor Swift?

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It's never C.

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It's never going to be C.

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It's probably D, quite honestly.

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Or A and B.

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But it's never C.

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So, it's one of those things that just because people don't see it and appreciate it outwardly, it is appreciated by the people who matter.

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And, quite honestly, if you don't do it the right way, then people definitely understand who you are and what's going on.

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And that would be no fun.

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So, you know, you mentioned a moment ago that you've got your head down, you're snapping the ball, they've got a running start coming at you.

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How do you handle that mentally, play after play, knowing, to your point, you can't see what's coming, but you know that they're coming for you?

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I think it's, you know, control the controllable, expect the expected.

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I know I'm going to get the crap knocked out of me.

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And it's within the rules.

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And if I was a coach, I always said it.

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I would have destroyed the long snapper each and every time, even if he was almost perfect.

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And that's what I was able to do for 15 years.

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I would destroy him just to try to get in their head.

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So it was what it was.

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And then control the controllable, which is, for me, every time I went up to get ready to snap, be it field goal or mostly punts also, which is, you know, snap, block, tackle.

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I mean, tackle is third.

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00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:45,900
Block is second.

225
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,160
First and foremost, you've got to get the snap back there.

226
00:12:48,220 --> 00:12:51,280
If you don't get the snap back there, then the other two don't matter.

227
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,720
And then always understanding that, you know, there is no perfection.

228
00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:58,080
The consistency is perfection with what I did.

229
00:12:58,180 --> 00:13:05,200
So as long as you're consistent and the people who count on you know that you're going to get the ball back there for them, that breeds confidence with them.

230
00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:08,640
So obviously, you have to be very accurate in snapping the ball.

231
00:13:09,460 --> 00:13:13,100
How do you develop and maintain your concentration and accuracy under such intense pressure?

232
00:13:14,180 --> 00:13:15,040
You know what?

233
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,500
It's what the job demanded.

234
00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:22,460
I mean, I think generally you look at something and you either step up to it or you step aside.

235
00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:25,080
And I never chose to step aside.

236
00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:25,500
You take.

237
00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:26,560
You take it head on.

238
00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:31,540
And I think that served me well the rest of my life with a lot of other things that went on in my life.

239
00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:37,200
So I just I think it's it's part of the job and you know it going in.

240
00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,520
And you can't.

241
00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:40,980
As I said earlier, you can't have an ego.

242
00:13:41,180 --> 00:13:43,760
I mean, you've got to understand this is a very important part.

243
00:13:43,820 --> 00:13:47,540
And just because people don't always recognize it doesn't mean it's any less important.

244
00:13:48,340 --> 00:13:51,120
You know, you mentioned a few times about how you can't even eat, can't have an ego.

245
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:55,520
And obviously, it's a team sport and there's 11 people inside of the ball.

246
00:13:55,900 --> 00:14:02,320
But for the most part, ESPN talks about the quarterback, the running back, the star defensive end or linebacker and a wide receiver.

247
00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:09,540
How does that weigh on everyone else on the team who has just as important part as the star quarterback or running back or receiver?

248
00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:13,840
I think they understand their roles.

249
00:14:13,940 --> 00:14:16,680
I think that's what life is about also is understanding your role.

250
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:22,040
And if you want a bigger role, then you go after it with in no uncertain terms.

251
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,980
But either way, you accept what you've been asked to do.

252
00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:26,380
You can do better.

253
00:14:26,460 --> 00:14:27,000
That's great.

254
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,440
But understanding that if you've been asked to do it and you're doing it to the best of your ability, that's what you need to do.

255
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:39,620
And I think quite honestly, on the team concept, when you're in there, especially football, you just understand that there's so many different things going on.

256
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:41,000
And there's so many specialties.

257
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:42,560
You know, it's funny in practice.

258
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,520
All the guys want to come over and snap the ball and have fun with it.

259
00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:49,460
And then they snap it and it's just awful and they can't do it.

260
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:50,700
And they're like, oh, man, OK.

261
00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:55,700
And that gives them kind of a newfound respect for it as well.

262
00:14:55,900 --> 00:15:04,600
So I just think it's being aware of every position has its strengths and weaknesses and different people deal with it different ways.

263
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:06,960
And they're trying to snap it and they can't snap it.

264
00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:09,260
And that's without a 250-pound linebacker coming at them.

265
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:10,120
Exactly.

266
00:15:10,220 --> 00:15:10,940
Exactly right.

267
00:15:11,780 --> 00:15:15,540
So every down that you're snapping the ball obviously must be a high-pressure situation.

268
00:15:16,220 --> 00:15:18,940
But was there a particularly high-pressure situation you faced during a game?

269
00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:23,600
Yes and no.

270
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,880
Because the fact is, you remember Hoosiers.

271
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:34,460
When they get to the final game and beforehand, Gene Hackman has the little guy get up on the shoulders and measure the rim.

272
00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:35,520
And it's 10-foot.

273
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:40,060
And he said, you know what, that's the same height that it is back in our little gym.

274
00:15:40,260 --> 00:15:46,700
And I bring that up because a game-winning field goal or a field goal on the first drive of the game is still eight yards.

275
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,120
It's still three-and-a-half revolutions.

276
00:15:48,260 --> 00:15:49,420
It's still the same thing.

277
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,800
And that's what I adopted for everything.

278
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,120
And I think when you have that mindset.

279
00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:58,980
Don't place too much importance or more importance on it than it is.

280
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:00,480
I mean, everybody else can do that.

281
00:16:00,580 --> 00:16:01,840
All you've got to do is do your job.

282
00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:03,780
I looked at it that way all the time.

283
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:09,700
And then I think I had a pretty good ability for – I think it was for love of the game.

284
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:11,840
Kevin Costner, when he was pitching.

285
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,100
I remember watching that way back when.

286
00:16:15,140 --> 00:16:15,580
I don't remember.

287
00:16:15,780 --> 00:16:18,500
But when he was out there and he was just like, you know, clear the mechanism.

288
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,060
And all of a sudden, the noise would go away and he just would focus in.

289
00:16:23,060 --> 00:16:25,580
And I would literally say that lots of times.

290
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:29,380
And I was able to just block everything out.

291
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:36,180
77,000 screaming at the world's loudest outdoor stadium, Arrowhead, 142.2 decibels.

292
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:42,820
And when you can just focus and all of a sudden it goes away and you just go after your job and do it,

293
00:16:42,860 --> 00:16:46,720
I think that's what the job demanded for me to do it the best that I could.

294
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,220
I know you said that with the exception of the punter or kicker,

295
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,940
you were probably the worst athlete on the field when you were out there.

296
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:54,260
I love that you said that.

297
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:54,760
That's pretty funny.

298
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:55,600
Yep.

299
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:56,620
Are we also the most important?

300
00:16:56,740 --> 00:16:59,760
Because if the snap doesn't get where it's supposed to go, the whole play is a failure.

301
00:17:00,820 --> 00:17:03,240
What's the moral of the story or the lesson for the rest of us on that?

302
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:12,060
Well, I think understanding, you know, for NFL, you mentioned that the NFL average win is by six or less points.

303
00:17:12,060 --> 00:17:13,680
So by fewer than a touchdown.

304
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:20,060
So the points that I'm helping be successful with or unsuccessful with could be the difference in the game.

305
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:25,580
So understanding that and understanding no matter what it is you're asked to do.

306
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,840
If you're being asked to do it, it's for a reason.

307
00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:30,080
So you place the importance upon it.

308
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,540
And I think when you do that, don't give it any more or less importance, but just do your job.

309
00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:39,620
I think in my instance, anyhow, it served me well.

310
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:40,760
And I think it serves others well.

311
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:45,160
When I talk to corporations, to folks, whatever, I talk about that a lot.

312
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,580
It's just understand what you're asked to do and do it to the best of your ability.

313
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:49,080
And you know what?

314
00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:50,400
That's not splitting atoms.

315
00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:52,480
But nobody says anything new anymore.

316
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,380
We just simply try to make people think.

317
00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:55,100
We try to make people.

318
00:17:55,140 --> 00:17:55,440
What is it?

319
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,020
Socrates has said, learning is remembering.

320
00:17:58,340 --> 00:17:59,360
And that's really what it is.

321
00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:00,280
We know a lot of things.

322
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,520
We just forget them sometimes.

323
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,060
How important is the relationship between the long snapper, holder, and kicker?

324
00:18:06,660 --> 00:18:08,360
And can you just go out there and snap the ball to anyone?

325
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:10,160
Or do you have to have a real connection with that person?

326
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,540
You can go out and snap it to anybody.

327
00:18:15,340 --> 00:18:20,420
But to really get honed in, yeah, you want that holder to be somebody you work with all the time.

328
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,080
Generally, it's the putter.

329
00:18:22,660 --> 00:18:24,240
I was kind of, I don't know, famous.

330
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:24,920
I say famous.

331
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,680
But I was very well known for saying in practices when we had times like, okay, who's ready to go get better?

332
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:35,360
And we go keep taking field goal snap after field goal snap or punt snap after punt snap.

333
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,880
And to the degree, I mean, I don't know how many hundred thousand snaps I took over my career.

334
00:18:40,140 --> 00:18:45,340
Yet I kept going and driving at it because I never wanted to take anything for granted.

335
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:50,180
But, you know, the trust, the operation between those three, very, very important, you know, for me.

336
00:18:50,180 --> 00:18:54,900
You know, throwing the ball back there precisely so when the holder caught it, he could set it.

337
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,640
He could set it down with the laces out.

338
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,160
And, you know, that was a big thing.

339
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:07,960
And I know, you know, most of the kickers that kicked behind me had some of their best years as far as field goal percentage.

340
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:11,140
And I'm very certain that I had something to do with it.

341
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:12,180
They still had to kick it.

342
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,000
And I couldn't do that for them.

343
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:15,080
But I helped them.

344
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:24,860
If they knew that it was going to be there and on time, they didn't have to worry about other things, I think that inspires confidence and the ability to go about your business at a better pace maybe.

345
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,640
When you and I spoke last week, you mentioned Gary Anderson coming up to you and saying, laces out.

346
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,100
Is he the first one that created that, not the phrase, but just having the laces out from that style?

347
00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:38,340
Or is that something kickers always do?

348
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:39,620
No.

349
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:40,580
Well, they do now.

350
00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:42,420
He asked me to do it.

351
00:19:42,460 --> 00:19:43,100
And I was a rookie.

352
00:19:43,220 --> 00:19:44,960
And I was just like, oh, man, I'd never heard of this.

353
00:19:45,020 --> 00:19:46,720
I certainly didn't do it in college.

354
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,240
And I remember thinking, man, what are they, how do they do it up here in the NFL?

355
00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:53,860
But I was just like, sure, I'll try.

356
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:54,900
It took me a couple weeks.

357
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:55,720
And I got it.

358
00:19:55,980 --> 00:20:01,860
And there have been a few guys who I think tried to do it and did it somewhat successfully through their career.

359
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:09,600
But I don't think to the repetitions or to the ability that I did, which was laces were out each and every time.

360
00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:12,400
And I helped usher that in, I believe.

361
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,040
And I was told that afterwards.

362
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:16,420
I didn't understand it at the time.

363
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:24,040
What I understood at the time was somebody was asking me to help them do their job as good as possible by me doing something I'd never done before.

364
00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:26,320
And therefore, I did it.

365
00:20:26,420 --> 00:20:27,440
But I am proud of it.

366
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:28,300
There's no doubt about it.

367
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:32,260
But really, what you think about it, laces out, it's facilitating the success of others.

368
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,560
With team success comes individual accolades.

369
00:20:34,820 --> 00:20:39,260
And, you know, when I sign my text, when I sign my emails, I always have laces out.

370
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,020
I know everybody, you know, first thing to go to is Ace Ventura, laces out, Dan.

371
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:48,260
You'll want the little kicker chasing around because he thinks you're the reason he missed the game-winning field goal.

372
00:20:48,660 --> 00:20:50,740
But it's about helping others be successful.

373
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,660
Generally, you help others be successful, it's going to come your way also.

374
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,120
You should have T-shirts made that says that too.

375
00:20:57,860 --> 00:20:58,740
I should, I agree.

376
00:20:58,760 --> 00:20:59,800
Coffee mugs, I love that.

377
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,440
So, obviously, I don't have to tell you that Pittsburgh is not Miami.

378
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,720
And certainly in November, December, and January.

379
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,460
Is one long snap the same as all others?

380
00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:10,660
Or do you have to adjust your technique in response to weather?

381
00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:14,840
Yes and no.

382
00:21:15,260 --> 00:21:16,200
Some people do.

383
00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:16,920
I did not.

384
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:19,620
I had equal pressure on my right hand and my left hand.

385
00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:23,640
Right hand, if you throw right-handed, that's a power hand.

386
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:24,800
But that's a power hand.

387
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:24,880
Right hand, if you throw right-handed, that's a power hand.

388
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:24,900
Right hand, if you throw right-handed, that's a power hand.

389
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:26,220
The other hand is the guide hand.

390
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,680
And so, if there's equal pressure, then if there's snow, if it's too cold,

391
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,840
the ball's slick, if it's wet, equal pressure allows you to do it.

392
00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:33,880
And that's what helped me.

393
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,460
Some snappers these days use gloves because they're sticky.

394
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,260
And I can't imagine that working for me, but it works for plenty.

395
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,020
So, I certainly don't judge.

396
00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:47,840
But understanding that no matter what it was, you had to figure it out.

397
00:21:47,860 --> 00:21:51,840
Because quite honestly, there were times during my career where I'd get into a game

398
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,880
or into a pregame, and I wasn't snapping as well as I did.

399
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,260
And it's kind of like golf.

400
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,260
And you play the game that you brought that day.

401
00:21:59,420 --> 00:22:01,000
You don't work it out on the course.

402
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,220
So, some days I had to find a way to just get through the game.

403
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:05,000
It wasn't beautiful.

404
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:06,340
It was good enough.

405
00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:09,100
And it was better than a lot still.

406
00:22:09,220 --> 00:22:11,380
But it wasn't to the standards I wanted.

407
00:22:11,620 --> 00:22:14,300
But understanding that and also not panicking.

408
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:19,060
I can remember Morton Anderson kicking behind me when I was with the Kansas City Chiefs.

409
00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:21,300
And he was just having an awful pregame.

410
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:24,800
And I kind of look at myself as kind of a catcher in baseball, which is,

411
00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:26,300
you know, you're helping guide the pitcher.

412
00:22:26,420 --> 00:22:27,180
So, I'm helping with him.

413
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,600
He and I had a good friendship.

414
00:22:28,860 --> 00:22:30,880
We were both the oldest guys on the team.

415
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,160
But he's just going nuts.

416
00:22:32,260 --> 00:22:35,580
And he's like, Kimmel, he goes, I can't kick it.

417
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:36,300
It's not hitting it.

418
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,840
I'm like, hey, Morton, you've been doing this at that point in time.

419
00:22:38,940 --> 00:22:40,960
I think it was 18 or 19 years for him.

420
00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:42,760
He said, you've been doing this a long time.

421
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,220
Just keep going after it.

422
00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:47,280
No matter what happens, you get out on the field, you go through everything,

423
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:48,040
and you just kick.

424
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:49,020
Your body will remember.

425
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:49,960
Your body will know.

426
00:22:51,140 --> 00:22:52,080
And he did.

427
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:53,780
He got through the game, and he was fine.

428
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:54,860
And he still has.

429
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:55,400
I had to do that.

430
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,980
But I think I helped get him in the right mindset to approach something

431
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:00,440
when things weren't going perfectly.

432
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,800
Because in life, things don't always go perfectly.

433
00:23:03,220 --> 00:23:07,040
And when they do, or when they go that way, how do you deal with it?

434
00:23:08,420 --> 00:23:09,340
Just laces out.

435
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:11,160
There you go.

436
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:13,900
Now, I'll apologize in advance for this.

437
00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:17,340
As painful as it might be for you, we have to talk about Super Bowl XXX,

438
00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:20,020
where the Cowboys beat the Steelers 27-17.

439
00:23:21,020 --> 00:23:22,840
And I promise I won't mention it again,

440
00:23:23,260 --> 00:23:24,660
but take us through your part in that game,

441
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,260
and what it was like to be AFC champs and reach the Super Bowl.

442
00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:29,460
You know what?

443
00:23:29,780 --> 00:23:32,460
It's obviously a dream come true to get to a Super Bowl,

444
00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:35,400
especially since the year before we lost on the last play of the game

445
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:36,940
to hopefully get there.

446
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:38,420
So you get there.

447
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:39,840
And, you know, so many things I remember.

448
00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:43,880
Number one, I remember warming up out there,

449
00:23:44,140 --> 00:23:46,600
just me and the punter before.

450
00:23:47,180 --> 00:23:49,280
And they're getting ready to do the coin toss.

451
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:52,760
And, you know, AFC and FC has somebody come out to represent them,

452
00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:53,440
a Pro Bowl player.

453
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:54,780
And so Joe Namath.

454
00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:59,380
He walks by and, of course, the famous QB that called the Super Bowl win

455
00:23:59,380 --> 00:23:59,820
and everything.

456
00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:02,900
And he walks by and he knows I'm the Steelers and AFC.

457
00:24:03,140 --> 00:24:05,480
And he goes, he just looks at me, he goes, let's go get a win.

458
00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:08,720
And I remember thinking, no way Joe Namath just said to me,

459
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,520
let's go get a win.

460
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,340
And we didn't, unfortunately.

461
00:24:11,860 --> 00:24:12,880
But still things like that.

462
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:14,120
I remember being on the sideline.

463
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,960
Vanessa Williams is singing the national anthem.

464
00:24:18,140 --> 00:24:19,260
And there was a couple of things.

465
00:24:19,340 --> 00:24:21,240
Number one, I was like, she's a lot shorter than I realized.

466
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,940
And number two, I remember telling myself, okay, it's just a game.

467
00:24:24,020 --> 00:24:24,720
It's still a game.

468
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:26,220
I mean, it's still the 10-foot rim.

469
00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:27,700
It's still a 100-yard field.

470
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,180
I mean, it's still that.

471
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,740
So not placing too much importance on it, if that makes sense.

472
00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:38,500
But, you know, really trying to just calm myself with things

473
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:41,100
and understand this is still just another game.

474
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,920
Now, I'm betting you have a happier story about your selection of the Pro Bowl

475
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,000
as the first long snapper chosen for the game.

476
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:48,120
What was that like?

477
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:50,260
Yeah, that was amazing.

478
00:24:50,260 --> 00:24:54,500
I was going to pick up my boys.

479
00:24:54,780 --> 00:24:57,800
I'm in elementary school.

480
00:24:58,180 --> 00:25:02,400
And I get this call from a 4-1-2 area code, which is Pittsburgh.

481
00:25:03,060 --> 00:25:05,660
And I go ahead and answer it because I don't think it's junk.

482
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,160
And on the other line, it says, hello.

483
00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:10,860
And I said, hello.

484
00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:13,240
He goes, Kendall, this is Coach Coward.

485
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,180
And I was like, no, I know who it is.

486
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,580
In my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, no, I heard you yell at me enough.

487
00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:21,840
And I've heard your voice enough.

488
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,420
I know who the hell it is.

489
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:24,760
I was like, yeah, I know.

490
00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:25,020
I heard that.

491
00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:26,780
What's up?

492
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,320
And he goes, well, I just called to tell you that I'm adding you to the Pro Bowl roster.

493
00:25:31,460 --> 00:25:33,880
And you're going to the Pro Bowl this year.

494
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,240
And it's funny because I'm doing it now.

495
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,480
I told him, I said, Coach, you made me cry when you cut me.

496
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:44,820
And you're making me cry again.

497
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:45,720
But thank you.

498
00:25:46,540 --> 00:25:49,340
And this is a really special time.

499
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:54,360
And, you know, I had always taken care of my business with him

500
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:54,760
in terms of what I was doing.

501
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,500
So when I went to Saints or when I went to the Chiefs,

502
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,980
whenever we played them, he wasn't going to seek me out and say,

503
00:26:01,140 --> 00:26:01,760
hey, how are you doing?

504
00:26:01,980 --> 00:26:03,060
But I sought him out.

505
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,420
And I said, hey, thank you for bringing me into the league.

506
00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:08,460
I mean, obviously, I didn't want to be cut and all that stuff.

507
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:08,960
Nobody does.

508
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,260
That was the first time I'd ever been told I wasn't good enough to be on a team

509
00:26:12,260 --> 00:26:13,080
or wasn't welcome.

510
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:17,060
But I kept that relationship alive.

511
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:17,780
And it was sincere.

512
00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:20,040
I was very thankful that he helped get me in the league.

513
00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:23,800
And as I look at it, you know, if I were to –

514
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:24,320
if I had backed out of the league, you know,

515
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,660
if I had had bad blood and either went and said something bad

516
00:26:27,660 --> 00:26:30,340
or not said anything at all, I don't know if he would have taken me.

517
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:30,740
I don't know.

518
00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:35,760
So if that's not a lesson for never burn a bridge, I don't know what is.

519
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,380
And I found out later also that he was very excited to take me

520
00:26:39,380 --> 00:26:41,980
and was telling people in the organization,

521
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,740
which is really hard for me to even comprehend,

522
00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:47,600
but just a really cool thing.

523
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:48,860
That's amazing.

524
00:26:49,020 --> 00:26:49,640
Absolutely amazing.

525
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,740
We've been talking to former NFL Pro Bowler Kendall Gammon,

526
00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:53,820
and I'll be right back.

527
00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:55,760
After a short break, stay with us.

528
00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:27,300
From different walks of life who personify energy, direction,

529
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:31,260
excitement, and purpose as they take bold steps forward

530
00:27:31,260 --> 00:27:34,060
in pursuit of excellence and service to others.

531
00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:36,020
Tune in to Next Steps Forward,

532
00:27:36,380 --> 00:27:39,680
Tuesdays at 1 p.m. Eastern Time, 10 a.m. Pacific Time,

533
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,360
on the Voice America Empowerment Channel.

534
00:27:43,540 --> 00:27:44,760
Change your world.

535
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,380
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536
00:27:47,660 --> 00:27:48,920
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537
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538
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539
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540
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541
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542
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543
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544
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00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,060
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546
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547
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,080
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548
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,700
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549
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:19,160
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550
00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:27,380
You are listening to Next Steps Forward.

551
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,580
To reach Chris Meek or his guest on the show today,

552
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,720
please call in to 1-888-346-9141.

553
00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:42,140
That's 1-888-346-9141.

554
00:28:42,140 --> 00:28:47,360
Or send an email to Chris at NextStepsForward.com.

555
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,860
Now, back to this week's show.

556
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:52,560
We are back.

557
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:52,860
We are back.

558
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,080
I'm Chris Meek, host of Next Steps Forward.

559
00:28:55,580 --> 00:28:56,960
My guest today is Kendall Gammon.

560
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,140
Kendall is a sought-after keynote speaker

561
00:28:59,140 --> 00:29:02,040
and a 15-year NFL veteran known for his physical strength.

562
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,100
He's also the author of two books,

563
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,960
Life's a Snap, Building on the Past to Improve Your Future,

564
00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:09,940
and Game Plan, Leadership Lessons from the Best of the NFL.

565
00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:13,380
Kendall, I understand that only about 100 people

566
00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:15,340
have ever played 15 years in the NFL,

567
00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:16,900
which is incredible,

568
00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:17,860
knowing how many people have played

569
00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:19,440
and how old the league is.

570
00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:22,440
The average NFL career is 3.3 years.

571
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,480
To what do you attribute your ability

572
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,280
to play five times longer than most?

573
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,540
I think my attention to detail.

574
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,100
I think having a specialty that is sought after

575
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:37,760
and taking it to the highest level.

576
00:29:38,780 --> 00:29:41,340
You know, arguably, five or six years of my career,

577
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,480
I was known as maybe the best long snapper in the NFL,

578
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,780
but at the very least, the top 32.

579
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,060
And to do that,

580
00:29:52,060 --> 00:29:55,000
at that level in the world,

581
00:29:55,100 --> 00:30:02,040
I think is something that I just believed in,

582
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:02,940
believed that I could do.

583
00:30:03,140 --> 00:30:07,220
And I always took the stance that I tried to be so good

584
00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:08,840
that they couldn't afford to let me go.

585
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:12,380
And, you know, fortunately, that's what happened for 15 years.

586
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,180
I actually chose to leave of my own accord.

587
00:30:15,180 --> 00:30:18,040
I was asked to play again for a 16th year.

588
00:30:18,220 --> 00:30:19,420
Doesn't mean I would have made it,

589
00:30:19,540 --> 00:30:21,240
but there's a strong chance I would have.

590
00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:22,020
I probably could have.

591
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,800
I could have crashed out a couple more years.

592
00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:25,540
But it was 15 years.

593
00:30:25,620 --> 00:30:26,800
I've been doing it a long time.

594
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,500
I was starting to feel like I liked other things

595
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:32,400
and wanted to dive into other things.

596
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,780
And I chose to go out,

597
00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:37,600
not bitter about either thinking that I got screwed

598
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,500
because the coaches, you know, didn't want me anymore

599
00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:42,600
or by an injury as well, whatever.

600
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:44,800
Because the one thing is Father Time never loses.

601
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,240
So eventually, everybody has to stop playing.

602
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,840
But it was very empowering for me, I think.

603
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:51,940
Well, you mentioned Father Time.

604
00:30:52,060 --> 00:30:53,720
And everyone has to stop playing at some point.

605
00:30:54,260 --> 00:30:57,240
Talking about NFL longevity, we have to talk about Tom Brady.

606
00:30:58,220 --> 00:31:00,740
Not only did he play 23 seasons, but he was a quarterback.

607
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,600
He must have had tremendous respect for Tom Brady.

608
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:04,940
And how do you explain his longevity?

609
00:31:06,580 --> 00:31:07,360
You know what?

610
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,220
I think he took it to that nth level also and just very cerebral.

611
00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:15,560
He had great talent to throw the ball and decision-making.

612
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:16,920
I mean, you watch him run.

613
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,660
He's not that great an athlete running the ball,

614
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:20,800
and he would tell you as much.

615
00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:21,840
But, you know,

616
00:31:22,060 --> 00:31:26,300
I'm good friends with Mike Vrabel, who played for a while with the Steelers

617
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:28,020
and then, of course, with the Patriots.

618
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,520
And then he's been a head coach around the league.

619
00:31:30,780 --> 00:31:33,820
And I remember interviewing him for my second book

620
00:31:33,820 --> 00:31:36,820
and him just talking about the locker room with the Patriots.

621
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,980
And, of course, Brady was in there.

622
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:40,640
He was in there.

623
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,360
But, you know, they just had this expectation of what you do,

624
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:45,940
how you do it, and your grind.

625
00:31:46,100 --> 00:31:48,400
And it wasn't the most pleasant, but they go after things.

626
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,260
And I think that's what explained what Tom Brady could do.

627
00:31:52,060 --> 00:31:56,060
I think, you know, to win seven Super Bowls, obviously,

628
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,120
is something I would say would never be matched,

629
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:00,540
but I'm not certain that it won't be.

630
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,160
We've got a guy here in Kansas City who's at least trying to make a race of it.

631
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:10,240
But either way, just his attention to detail, I think, was a big thing for sure.

632
00:32:11,660 --> 00:32:13,620
We talk a lot about resilience and next steps forward.

633
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,340
What did the NFL's revolving door of players going from one team to another,

634
00:32:17,820 --> 00:32:19,760
you being cut by the Steelers and going to the Northern Saints,

635
00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:21,160
teach you about resilience?

636
00:32:22,060 --> 00:32:27,820
I think you've got to understand that things happen,

637
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:30,600
and it's not always going to be the way you see it.

638
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:33,220
But it's not about what happens to you.

639
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,220
And we've heard this, again, not splitting atoms.

640
00:32:35,220 --> 00:32:36,480
It's not about what happens to you.

641
00:32:36,740 --> 00:32:39,220
It's about how you respond to whatever happens to you.

642
00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:41,980
And the fact is, the one thing you know is bad things are going to happen.

643
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:42,900
Everything's not good.

644
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,480
So understand that and how do you deal with it.

645
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,520
I mean, I remember, you know, at one point in time, I played 218 straight games.

646
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,220
I was the longest non.

647
00:32:52,060 --> 00:32:54,260
A punter, a kicker, the longest active streak.

648
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,940
And I was coming off of a punt that I just snapped in Houston.

649
00:32:57,940 --> 00:32:59,460
It was my 218th game.

650
00:32:59,820 --> 00:33:02,740
I remember I got knocked down, got up, got knocked down again.

651
00:33:02,940 --> 00:33:06,440
And then all of a sudden, I realized that I had the worst pain that I've ever felt in my life.

652
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,120
I didn't know what was going on.

653
00:33:08,420 --> 00:33:11,340
But I just kept going and going and, you know, trying to help.

654
00:33:11,380 --> 00:33:14,340
And I did help affect the play because it broke out to my right.

655
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:16,360
And I took the angle and everything.

656
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,740
But what I found out was that I broke my leg.

657
00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:21,480
I found it out at halftime when we x-rayed it.

658
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:21,980
But I played it.

659
00:33:22,060 --> 00:33:25,320
I played on it for a half, excruciating pain.

660
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:26,100
You know, I snapped.

661
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:26,720
It was kind of funny.

662
00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:30,580
Snap the ball, run, fall down, get back up, run, fall down, get back up.

663
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,460
But again, when you have the attitude that no matter what happens to you,

664
00:33:35,540 --> 00:33:36,920
you're going to keep going.

665
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:40,000
Because for me, it was this.

666
00:33:40,860 --> 00:33:41,740
I was a teammate.

667
00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:42,960
People were counting on me.

668
00:33:43,020 --> 00:33:45,440
And just because I'm hurt, just because I had something bad happen,

669
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,720
doesn't mean I'm not going to go out and try to do my job to the best of my ability.

670
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,080
And I think that's the attitude I took with everything.

671
00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:51,640
It's the attitude.

672
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,980
I try to take now that I believe I do.

673
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,020
It's the attitude that I tried to, you know, put into my two boys as well.

674
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,220
And I think I have to a degree.

675
00:34:02,780 --> 00:34:04,160
Who are your favorite coaches and teammates?

676
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,160
And of course, we have to dish a little dirt.

677
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,060
Which opponents could you absolutely not stand and why?

678
00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:14,000
Well, favorite coaches.

679
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,820
I'm very fond of Coach Cowher just because of how he treated me.

680
00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:21,620
And really, the way he thickened my skin.

681
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:22,360
My rookie year.

682
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,140
He was hard on me.

683
00:34:23,340 --> 00:34:25,480
I mean, I didn't like him a lot my rookie year,

684
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,800
but I liked him afterwards because he thickened my skin.

685
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,300
You really can't get to me anymore.

686
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,360
But I was fortunate.

687
00:34:30,460 --> 00:34:31,200
I played for Ditka.

688
00:34:31,460 --> 00:34:33,080
I played for Vermeule.

689
00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:35,640
I played for Cowher.

690
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,020
Then, of course, the first seven years of Andy Reid's career,

691
00:34:39,140 --> 00:34:40,100
I broadcast as well.

692
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,300
So being around these guys that are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame

693
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:45,660
or will be on the first ballot, of course, for Andy.

694
00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:50,580
But I forgot where I was going with that.

695
00:34:50,580 --> 00:34:51,620
And this is the tangent.

696
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:52,560
I lose sometimes.

697
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,700
But remind me what I was talking about, what you asked.

698
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:56,660
Who were your favorite coaches?

699
00:34:56,660 --> 00:34:56,820
Oh, the favorite.

700
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:57,060
Yeah.

701
00:34:57,460 --> 00:34:57,720
Yeah.

702
00:34:58,580 --> 00:35:01,840
Probably, I don't know.

703
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,660
My favorite coach was really Bobby April,

704
00:35:03,780 --> 00:35:07,160
who was a special teams coach two years in Pittsburgh

705
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,920
and four years in New Orleans.

706
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,760
So I spent a lot of time with him.

707
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,060
And he really pushed me to do some things that I'd never done before

708
00:35:15,060 --> 00:35:17,040
and take my game to a higher level.

709
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:17,920
So certainly that.

710
00:35:18,980 --> 00:35:21,460
As far as players that I didn't like playing against,

711
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,380
whoever was over me,

712
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,300
that was going to knock the crap out of me, quite honestly.

713
00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:27,980
The list is long and pretty distinguished, quite honestly.

714
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:29,740
So it is what it is.

715
00:35:29,740 --> 00:35:35,000
And then as far as probably teams you don't like,

716
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,640
probably the Raiders to a degree, being in the Kansas City Chiefs.

717
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,340
Or when I was with the Steelers, it was the Cleveland Browns.

718
00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:44,380
And, of course, when I was with the Saints, it was everybody.

719
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:48,120
Because those were kind of my character-building years, Chris,

720
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,960
if you get what I'm throwing down there.

721
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:51,460
Absolutely.

722
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,960
Yeah, just part of it.

723
00:35:53,620 --> 00:35:54,200
Love that.

724
00:35:54,380 --> 00:35:55,280
Love the candidness.

725
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:55,720
Thank you.

726
00:35:56,300 --> 00:35:58,480
So there's now what is described as, quote,

727
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,820
very, very high-level talk between the NFL and NFL Players Association

728
00:36:01,820 --> 00:36:04,440
about adding an 18th regular season game.

729
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,560
That would move the Super Bowl out to the three-day Presidents' Day weekend.

730
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,560
What are your thoughts on 18-game regular season games,

731
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:12,640
and what's that going to mean for the wear and tear in players?

732
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,300
No questions it's going to happen.

733
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,300
I've been talking about this for probably four or five years,

734
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:19,100
and it's in the works.

735
00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:20,980
They had to get to 17 first, and they have.

736
00:36:20,980 --> 00:36:22,340
But they will get to 18.

737
00:36:22,740 --> 00:36:25,020
Super Bowl Sunday is already a holiday,

738
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,460
and the number of people that call in sick on Monday is probably quite high.

739
00:36:29,540 --> 00:36:30,820
So they might as well get there anyhow.

740
00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:32,500
And I do think they're headed there.

741
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:34,620
Does it take a toll on the players?

742
00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:37,340
Yes, it does, because it's another game.

743
00:36:37,420 --> 00:36:38,320
There's no doubt about that.

744
00:36:38,380 --> 00:36:41,380
But I think also you might get an extra bye week.

745
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:42,580
I don't know how that would work.

746
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:44,840
So that would be nice, because I think eventually you're going to see

747
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,400
every team play.

748
00:36:46,540 --> 00:36:49,480
I'm certain you're going to see every team play an international game,

749
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:50,960
and then they have the bye after.

750
00:36:50,980 --> 00:36:55,620
Because, as I always say, the NFL's motto is,

751
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:57,200
I don't want the world, I just want your hat.

752
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,500
I mean, they're looking to expand, and this is part of it.

753
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:05,720
And really the only way to grow revenues in a significant way at this point

754
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:07,360
in time is to have another game.

755
00:37:07,420 --> 00:37:10,220
And when you have another game, that's huge.

756
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,460
So it's going to happen, even if it is at the expense of the players

757
00:37:13,460 --> 00:37:14,000
a little bit.

758
00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:17,520
But that being said, when it comes down to it,

759
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,840
even before they went to 17 games, there was a lot of talk about,

760
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:20,960
well,

761
00:37:20,980 --> 00:37:22,480
we can't go from 16 to 17.

762
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:23,520
That's simply too much.

763
00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:24,740
And, well, we're here now.

764
00:37:25,180 --> 00:37:28,360
And then 17 to 18, it happens.

765
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:29,420
There's no doubt about it.

766
00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:33,420
And even the fact that they added the extra playoff game because of it,

767
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,320
how they did things here recently, that's huge as well.

768
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,400
I mean, when you look at the numbers that the NFL is doing,

769
00:37:39,820 --> 00:37:40,920
it is staggering.

770
00:37:41,140 --> 00:37:42,360
It's impressive, too.

771
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,280
It's beyond staggering.

772
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:47,800
And the thought that they were up until, I think, about nine years ago,

773
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,860
they were technically a nonprofit at $200 billion.

774
00:37:50,980 --> 00:37:51,740
That was a year in revenue.

775
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:52,580
I mean, come on.

776
00:37:52,780 --> 00:37:53,340
Come on, Roger.

777
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:56,020
We don't call people out.

778
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:56,620
Sorry about that.

779
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:57,660
Maybe we did.

780
00:37:58,380 --> 00:38:00,480
We're going into our fourth year with Next Steps Forward.

781
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,580
And to my knowledge, in almost 200 episodes,

782
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:05,820
I've never had a juggler as a guest.

783
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:07,500
How did you get into juggling?

784
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,020
I'm not surprised.

785
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,100
How did I get into juggling?

786
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:12,480
I had a couple of cousins.

787
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,580
When I was in the eighth grade, I had some cousins.

788
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,220
They were older than me.

789
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:16,320
They were juggling clubs.

790
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:17,960
And I thought it looked cool.

791
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,900
I lived on a farm.

792
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:19,960
And when they...

793
00:38:20,980 --> 00:38:23,580
They left, I didn't have the clubs, obviously.

794
00:38:23,980 --> 00:38:25,320
But I went and got a two-by-two pole.

795
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,600
I cut it into 18-inch strips, three of them.

796
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,300
I put it in a vice grip.

797
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:30,780
I got a draw knife.

798
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,760
And I drew a handle, round, carved it.

799
00:38:34,220 --> 00:38:35,420
Spray-painted it black.

800
00:38:35,660 --> 00:38:41,660
Put duct tape on the handles because everybody knows on a farm you have duct tape

801
00:38:41,660 --> 00:38:42,900
or whatever you need to keep together.

802
00:38:43,540 --> 00:38:45,280
And I made my own juggling clubs.

803
00:38:45,340 --> 00:38:47,260
And I learned to juggle clubs before balls

804
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:49,740
only because that's the only thing I'd ever seen.

805
00:38:50,060 --> 00:38:50,960
And I thought it was pretty cool.

806
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,820
And it's kind of funny that when I tried to learn to juggle balls,

807
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,040
it was difficult for me, which makes zero sense if you think about it.

808
00:38:57,620 --> 00:39:00,200
But again, that kind of speaks to the fact of, you know,

809
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:02,360
sometimes if you don't know the limitations

810
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,940
or you don't know the expectations of what is supposed to be hard

811
00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:09,620
or not supposed to be hard, then maybe it's not.

812
00:39:10,140 --> 00:39:12,180
Maybe we make things up in our mind.

813
00:39:12,220 --> 00:39:14,920
And the fact that I was not inhibited and I was just like,

814
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:16,180
okay, I'm going to learn to do this.

815
00:39:16,540 --> 00:39:17,840
And I went after it.

816
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:18,520
It happened.

817
00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:19,980
But that's how I learned to juggle.

818
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:20,920
They can't...

819
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,140
I became pretty accomplished.

820
00:39:23,020 --> 00:39:25,640
I used to be able to juggle seven objects at one point in time.

821
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,080
I can juggle five still.

822
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,680
Fire, rings, clubs, balls, bowling balls, you name it.

823
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,520
I've competed at the International Juggling Association.

824
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,520
They have a convention each and every year.

825
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:42,040
I competed in Atlanta in the juniors division when I was 17, I think,

826
00:39:42,060 --> 00:39:43,080
and got fourth place.

827
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,060
And how I got into Ringling Brothers was, you know,

828
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:50,500
of course, everybody on the team knew that I juggled.

829
00:39:50,620 --> 00:39:50,680
And also...

830
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,120
And so Ringling Brothers came to town in Kansas City one time.

831
00:39:55,140 --> 00:39:56,420
And I guess they called and said, you know,

832
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:57,460
would you want somebody...

833
00:39:57,460 --> 00:40:01,940
Would you have somebody that would want to come and see the circus

834
00:40:01,940 --> 00:40:06,760
and maybe, you know, do a PR move and we'll give them tickets and whatever.

835
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:09,000
And I think my PR...

836
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,560
The PR team with the Chiefs about broke their ankles trying to get down

837
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,340
and tell me that they wanted me to come to the circus and juggle.

838
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,340
And, of course, you know, believe it or not,

839
00:40:18,380 --> 00:40:20,440
and we didn't talk about this off air, but believe it or not,

840
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:20,940
when they asked me to come to the circus, I said,

841
00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:24,440
if I wanted to go there and juggle with the clowns,

842
00:40:24,460 --> 00:40:27,020
my first question was, can I ride the elephants also?

843
00:40:27,860 --> 00:40:28,800
But this is not the same one.

844
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:31,320
And the answer was no, but this was not the same old,

845
00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:33,640
he doesn't get to ride the elephants story,

846
00:40:33,740 --> 00:40:36,500
because I did at least get to talk with the boss clown,

847
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,760
who was a fifth generation Hungarian juggler.

848
00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:43,220
This is what he did.

849
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:44,880
And, of course, he had all the other clowns there.

850
00:40:45,580 --> 00:40:48,040
And after him, I was the best juggler there.

851
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,620
And so he invited me to be part of it.

852
00:40:50,620 --> 00:40:50,780
And I juggled with him.

853
00:40:50,780 --> 00:40:50,820
And I juggled with him.

854
00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:50,920
And I juggled with him.

855
00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:54,400
And, you know, even all the other clowns, you know,

856
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:55,880
sit around or they got into it.

857
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,520
And I'm not disparaging them.

858
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:58,580
They were clowns.

859
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,740
It is what it is.

860
00:40:59,980 --> 00:41:04,320
And, you know, if that's not a unique story, I don't know what is.

861
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:05,280
But it's fabulous.

862
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,880
I've got the pictures, and I use it when I speak.

863
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,180
And, you know, I'm juggling with the Hungarian clown and another one.

864
00:41:12,260 --> 00:41:14,820
And, of course, I always make sure people know that I'm the one on the right

865
00:41:14,820 --> 00:41:18,520
for all the smartasses who are trying to figure out which clown I am.

866
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,780
But, I don't know, you've got to have fun with it.

867
00:41:21,700 --> 00:41:23,580
You're definitely the first juggler we've had

868
00:41:23,580 --> 00:41:26,240
and certainly the first juggler from Ringling Brothers Circus.

869
00:41:26,460 --> 00:41:28,440
So, hopefully, next time you can ride the elephant,

870
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,200
let me know if we can make some phone calls on your behalf.

871
00:41:31,060 --> 00:41:31,600
If only.

872
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:34,360
It's amazing that you even thought to ask that.

873
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:34,980
That's fantastic.

874
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:35,560
I love that.

875
00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:38,280
So, sticking with juggling,

876
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,600
you said that you use juggling as a Zen or meditation technique.

877
00:41:42,340 --> 00:41:44,700
How does juggling transport you to a state of peacefulness

878
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:45,660
for a metaphor for life?

879
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:47,280
You know what?

880
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,660
I think, you know, our life, we have our autothoughts.

881
00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:52,600
Which just come into our head, you know.

882
00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:56,620
And, I mean, it's been said in a lot of books that, you know,

883
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,460
that voice is the narrator and the interpreter.

884
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,780
And often, over thousands of years, our brain is there to protect us.

885
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:06,040
And so, it can be cautious or it can be negative.

886
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,760
So, understanding that our thoughts may go that way can be difficult.

887
00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:13,080
So, I think with the juggling,

888
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,920
learning to concentrate wholly and completely on something going on.

889
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,640
I mean, three is easy for me to juggle.

890
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:21,920
Five is not too hard also.

891
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,900
When I was juggling seven, when I could only do it for maybe 21 throws,

892
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:27,080
you really had to be really into it.

893
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,700
But what I'm getting at is being completely into something

894
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:32,200
where you're not thinking about other things.

895
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,660
And that's what really mindfulness is, is being able to concentrate on the moment.

896
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:40,540
You know, I do a daily gratitude journal.

897
00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:44,400
And my, you know, one of my mantras is always be in the moment

898
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,000
and don't be anxious about the future.

899
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,520
And then another one is I matter.

900
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,060
I make a difference and I am enough.

901
00:42:50,060 --> 00:42:50,640
And this comes with that.

902
00:42:50,660 --> 00:42:53,420
And this comes from a lot of different therapies and things I've done.

903
00:42:53,420 --> 00:42:56,480
But again, just being able to concentrate on one thing,

904
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,920
as opposed to your mind just going all over the place.

905
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,280
For me, anyhow, that becomes a bit of a zen.

906
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,300
I mean, it could be playing golf if you can fully concentrate on that or whatever it is.

907
00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:10,760
But for me, just juggling and having a good time.

908
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,140
And then, you know, teaching others too is fun also.

909
00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:19,680
But to back to your question, it's just something that allows me to try to be single,

910
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,140
have a single thought with nothing else going on to the left or the right.

911
00:43:24,140 --> 00:43:26,280
You mentioned your journaling.

912
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:31,660
You've written two books, both are about leadership, but they have very different themes.

913
00:43:31,660 --> 00:43:32,660
Describe each of them.

914
00:43:32,660 --> 00:43:35,440
And especially how can people in our audience find your books?

915
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:36,440
Okay.

916
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,320
Well, you can go to kindlegammon.com and you can go get them from there.

917
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,920
And, you know, oftentimes people want the hard copy, which is fine.

918
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:45,920
You can go get that.

919
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,440
My second book, quite honestly, you can download.

920
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:49,480
Okay.

921
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,820
A PDF version if you like.

922
00:43:51,820 --> 00:43:57,820
But the first one, leadership lessons from the best of the end of, well, wait a minute.

923
00:43:57,820 --> 00:44:01,180
The first one was a motivational inspirational.

924
00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:05,860
And that one, I told my story, unfortunately, about, you know, my upbringing as a kid and

925
00:44:05,860 --> 00:44:12,360
from, you know, age 10 to 16, I was abused by my mom, both physically and emotionally.

926
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,020
I was at food insecure at times.

927
00:44:15,020 --> 00:44:18,940
I was very good at making sure that nobody knew about any of that stuff.

928
00:44:18,940 --> 00:44:22,940
But it caught up to me later on in my life.

929
00:44:22,940 --> 00:44:26,100
But that's what I talked about in the first one, along with some other things as well.

930
00:44:26,100 --> 00:44:27,100
Maybe you'll draw it out of me.

931
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:31,240
And the second one was a game plan, leadership lessons from the best of the NFL.

932
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:37,660
And, you know, having played around a lot of pro bowl or a future of a hall of famers

933
00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:42,200
and coached by hall of fame coaches and whatnot, I just felt like there's a lot of information

934
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,200
that I was getting.

935
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,280
And so I would take notes and, and I took notes incessantly.

936
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:47,280
And I just decided that I wasn't going to do it.

937
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:48,280
I was going to do it.

938
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,880
And I decided that I wanted to do something with it and, you know, I started to speak

939
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:51,880
as well.

940
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,740
Of course, they always say the best business card you can have as a speaker is to have

941
00:44:54,740 --> 00:44:55,740
a book.

942
00:44:55,740 --> 00:44:57,460
So I figured it would be even better to have two.

943
00:44:57,460 --> 00:44:58,460
So that's what I did.

944
00:44:58,460 --> 00:45:02,040
And, you know, I could retire on it, but you make some money, but quite honestly, the money

945
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,540
goes back to some charity at some point from my standpoint.

946
00:45:05,540 --> 00:45:13,280
But if I can help somebody do something better or not do something that I did because it

947
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,280
was detrimental or whatever, if I can help somebody in some way through my books, and

948
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:18,280
that's what I wanted to do.

949
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,280
To do.

950
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:20,280
To do.

951
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:21,280
And I feel like I have.

952
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:22,280
And the website again is kendallgammon.com.

953
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,280
No S. Kendall Gammon.

954
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,280
He's singular, not plural.

955
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:25,280
There's only one of me.

956
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,280
And I get that because I've had trophies and diplomas that everyone puts an S on my last

957
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:27,280
name.

958
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:28,280
I don't know why.

959
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:29,280
I think it's because my first name ends in an S. I don't know.

960
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,280
So there's a lot of Chris Meeks things out there, which, so I totally get that.

961
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:31,280
Right.

962
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,280
Back to your football days.

963
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:33,280
You mentioned earlier, you've played for three Hall of Fame coaches, and obviously Andy Reid

964
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,280
will be the fourth when he retires.

965
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:35,280
Most players don't get to play for one Hall of Fame coach.

966
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,280
Right.

967
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:37,280
Yeah.

968
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:42,280
Let alone four.

969
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:43,280
And that ranks right there with your 15 years in the league.

970
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,280
Did you appreciate the depth of their knowledge in the building when you were playing for

971
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:45,280
them?

972
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:46,280
Some.

973
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:47,280
I did get to a degree because he was already a legend when he came back and started coaching

974
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:48,280
for the Saints.

975
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,280
Vermeer, yeah, because he had won a Super Bowl.

976
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,280
Yeah.

977
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:12,280
The four-year coach won the Super Bowl at St. Louis.

978
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,280
So I recognize that.

979
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,820
And Caler, my first four years at the Steelers were his first four years as a head coach

980
00:46:17,820 --> 00:46:18,920
at 34 years old.

981
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:24,000
In fact, the first time he came in to a meeting when I came there after the draft with a rookie

982
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,120
minicamp, he came in and started talking.

983
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,740
And I was just kind of looking around.

984
00:46:28,740 --> 00:46:31,120
And then I was like, Wait, this is the head coach.

985
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:32,120
I didn't know.

986
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,540
I haven't seen a picture of him.

987
00:46:33,540 --> 00:46:38,520
And I hadn't I don't know why I hadn't heard of him, because he was the former Chiefs defensive

988
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,280
coordinator, but all the same?

989
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:41,280
So second picture of him.

990
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:42,180
Him, not as much.

991
00:46:42,260 --> 00:46:44,760
And then, of course, Andy, yes and no.

992
00:46:44,860 --> 00:46:46,800
I mean, he had been at Philadelphia for a long time,

993
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:51,000
taking his team to the NFC Championship several times,

994
00:46:51,140 --> 00:46:52,700
Super Bowl once, although they lost.

995
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,700
But either way, I recognize this at least, Chris,

996
00:47:00,780 --> 00:47:02,760
which was you're a head coach in the NFL.

997
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:03,760
You've done some things.

998
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:05,140
You understand what's going on.

999
00:47:05,220 --> 00:47:07,320
And, of course, Cowher had played in the league.

1000
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:09,820
Brumill had coached high level in the league.

1001
00:47:09,820 --> 00:47:11,280
And Dicke had played in the league.

1002
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,380
So, yeah, I recognized it to a degree.

1003
00:47:14,460 --> 00:47:18,880
But I just knew also that there was a lot to learn from that.

1004
00:47:18,940 --> 00:47:21,960
And that's why I took those notes and tried to take in as much as I could.

1005
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:24,980
And were there any common leadership or motivational themes

1006
00:47:24,980 --> 00:47:25,960
you absorbed from each of them?

1007
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:31,280
Yeah, you know, I talk about this a lot, which is I always ask people,

1008
00:47:31,380 --> 00:47:33,880
you know, what was the goal of these four coaches?

1009
00:47:34,340 --> 00:47:36,440
And invariably people say win the Super Bowl,

1010
00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:38,720
like you see this trophy behind me or things like that.

1011
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:39,480
And that's true.

1012
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,760
But that's actually that's what happens when you accomplish

1013
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,720
what they're trying to do, which they're all trying to enhance

1014
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:53,000
and build mindset, an intentional, persistent mindset through focus,

1015
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,000
through persistence and through resilience as well.

1016
00:47:57,940 --> 00:47:59,680
And that's the one thing because the four guys,

1017
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,880
those four coaches could not be any different,

1018
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:04,740
any more different personality wise.

1019
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,820
But they had that one thing that they're trying to create a mindset

1020
00:48:07,820 --> 00:48:09,400
that no matter what happens,

1021
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,080
no matter whether you broke your leg coming off the line of scrimmage

1022
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,240
or no matter if you threw an interception,

1023
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,240
no matter if you missed a kick or whatever it was,

1024
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,960
you were going to come back and you're going to do your best

1025
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,600
and you were never going to feel sorry for yourself.

1026
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,400
You were just going to keep moving on because nobody plays a perfect game.

1027
00:48:25,540 --> 00:48:28,220
As I said, consistency is perfection.

1028
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,760
So that was the things that I saw in them that I think was common.

1029
00:48:34,060 --> 00:48:36,560
Let's get on the personal side of your life now, if that's OK.

1030
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:37,960
Mm hmm.

1031
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:39,120
On a somber note,

1032
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,480
a childhood friend of yours recently took his own life.

1033
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:43,320
You knew him for decades,

1034
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,960
and yet there's so much you've said that you didn't know about him,

1035
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,840
the struggles he was going through because he kept those things hidden from you.

1036
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:50,040
Yeah.

1037
00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:54,020
As men, why do we so disadvantage ourselves and even harm ourselves

1038
00:48:54,020 --> 00:48:57,760
by not opening up in times of need when we need to be open about it?

1039
00:48:58,800 --> 00:48:59,480
You know what?

1040
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:04,980
I think we're taught as men from a young age that oftentimes you don't cry.

1041
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:06,020
You squeeze it in.

1042
00:49:06,020 --> 00:49:08,320
You deal with it, be a man, things like that.

1043
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:09,380
And they're,

1044
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,660
probably, there are certainly times to do that at certain points, but not all the time.

1045
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:20,760
I'm a big Brene Brown fan, and she talks about being vulnerable and how important that is.

1046
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,540
And if people haven't read that, I would encourage them to.

1047
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,040
But I think it's changing a little bit.

1048
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:32,520
But yeah, you talk about, you know, several years back, my best friend, Scott Dennis, took his life.

1049
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,700
He'd been at my house the night before to pay me back some money.

1050
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:37,360
And I don't think he was planning it then.

1051
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,360
I think he caught a weak moment in that.

1052
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,120
I don't think he was going to be able to pay me back the next day.

1053
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,380
I knew he was going through a divorce, but his work life was in place.

1054
00:49:46,380 --> 00:49:50,320
What I didn't know is he was battling, he was having a battle, a losing battle with alcohol.

1055
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,420
And then I found out only his mom knew about, who I was close with also.

1056
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,540
But I didn't understand those things until afterwards.

1057
00:49:57,540 --> 00:50:07,560
And, you know, I talk about that openly when I speak to people, because suicide is not Kevin Bacon and six degrees of separation.

1058
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:08,800
It's one degree of separation.

1059
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:11,560
And we're too close to it, unfortunately.

1060
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:13,240
So I talk about it for a reason.

1061
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,000
And I think it's acceptable to talk about now.

1062
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:23,340
But, you know, when I juggle rings, when I'm doing some things, I juggle rings and they're white on one side, they're red, blue and green on the other.

1063
00:50:23,580 --> 00:50:28,880
And I talk about perspective and the fact of, you know, on one side, all they see is the white side.

1064
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,180
The other side, they see the colors.

1065
00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:35,520
But if I'm looking at them or the people in front of me are looking out of them, they just see these thin lines.

1066
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,520
And what I'm talking about is, you know, you know, sometimes.

1067
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,460
We have to get out of our own shoes to see it from a different, different vantage point.

1068
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:50,360
And as I move around with the rings and I'm juggling, the whole audience will see everything with the exception of me, because my view never changes.

1069
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:58,660
And so I take that to Scott or people in general, which is I don't blame myself for his what he did.

1070
00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:04,940
But I wonder if I'd had perspective, if I'd had more perspective to maybe identify something.

1071
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,060
Again, I don't blame myself.

1072
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:08,580
I just get sad about it.

1073
00:51:08,580 --> 00:51:12,660
Because I will always wonder if I could have done something and I don't want people to do that.

1074
00:51:12,660 --> 00:51:14,900
So I try to talk about it openly.

1075
00:51:14,900 --> 00:51:21,480
I do a lot of talks with a teacher in service and then that filters down, I hope, to the kids.

1076
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,520
Or oftentimes I talk to the high schoolers as well.

1077
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,540
But, you know, this is something that has to be talked about, along with other things that I talk about.

1078
00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:30,280
But so that's why I'm with that.

1079
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,160
And I know I went on the tangent, but.

1080
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:34,320
Nope, that's totally fine.

1081
00:51:34,380 --> 00:51:35,700
Tangent is what we're supposed to do here.

1082
00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:36,820
Yeah.

1083
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:38,520
So on a much happier note, we have just a few minutes.

1084
00:51:38,580 --> 00:51:39,360
A few minutes left.

1085
00:51:40,140 --> 00:51:41,340
War Horses for Veterans.

1086
00:51:42,060 --> 00:51:43,920
Tell us about the organization and your involvement.

1087
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:45,480
That's awesome.

1088
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,360
And if you go to you want to know more, it's WHFV.org.

1089
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:49,320
War Horses for Veterans.

1090
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,980
We bring in combat vets and first responders from all around the U.S.

1091
00:51:53,220 --> 00:51:55,860
for a complimentary week of equine therapy.

1092
00:51:55,860 --> 00:52:02,880
Deals with depression, PTSD, you know, withdrawal from the family through working with horses.

1093
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,800
And they learn to ride.

1094
00:52:04,940 --> 00:52:05,940
They learn to rope.

1095
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,400
And, you know, oftentimes.

1096
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,140
This is type A personalities who are used to controlling their own world.

1097
00:52:12,260 --> 00:52:19,920
Now, all of a sudden, they've got a 12,000 or 1,200 pound animal that they realize they have to communicate with because horses reflect our feelings back.

1098
00:52:19,980 --> 00:52:21,840
And they're such intuitive animals.

1099
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:24,680
So we feel like we're doing something great.

1100
00:52:24,780 --> 00:52:30,200
We're in our 10th year and something that certainly I would encourage everybody to go take a look at.

1101
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,220
And I feel good about it.

1102
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:38,240
I feel like I'm making a difference with people because I made something as benign as throwing a football between my legs.

1103
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:41,580
It's important in my life because of people like that who protected my freedoms.

1104
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:42,720
Amen.

1105
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,320
And what's their website again?

1106
00:52:46,180 --> 00:52:47,440
WHFD.org.

1107
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:49,560
WarHorsesForVeterans.org.

1108
00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:59,600
Kendall Gammon, 15-year NFL long-snapping veteran, pro bowler, author of Life's a Snap and Game Plan, and certainly world-class juggler.

1109
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,540
Thank you so much for being with us today.

1110
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:04,740
My sincere pleasure, Chris.

1111
00:53:04,820 --> 00:53:06,180
I applaud you for what you're doing.

1112
00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:07,000
Thanks for having me on.

1113
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:08,080
I appreciate your time.

1114
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:08,840
And all that you do, sir.

1115
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:09,380
So thank you.

1116
00:53:09,820 --> 00:53:15,180
And thank you to our audience, which now includes people in over 50 countries, for joining us for another episode of Next Steps Forward.

1117
00:53:15,700 --> 00:53:16,400
I'm Chris Meek.

1118
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:25,040
For more details on upcoming shows and guests, please follow me on Facebook at Facebook.com forward slash ChrisMeekPublicFigure and on X at ChrisMeek underscore USA.

1119
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:32,760
We'll be back next Tuesday, same time, same place, with our leader from the world of business, politics, public policy, sports, entertainment.

1120
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,260
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

1121
00:53:38,080 --> 00:54:08,060
We'll see you next time.

1122
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,080
Bye.