You Don't Have to Change to Change Everything w/ Beth Kurland
0:00 There are few things that make people successful. Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some time to get there. How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you? Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek. Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward. Now, here is Chris Meek. Hello, I'm Chris Meek, and you've tuned in to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward. As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us. Our special guest today is Dr. Beth Kerland.
0:41 Beth is a student clinical psychologist with three decades of experience. She's also a TEDx Talk speaker, as well as a sought-after public speaker. Dr. Kerland is a mind-body coach and the author of three award-winning books, Dancing on the Tightrope, Transcending the Habits of Your Mind and Awakening to Your Fullest Life, The Transformative Power of Ten Minutes. An eight-week guide to reducing stress and cultivating well-being, and Gifts of the Rain Puddle, Poems, Meditations, and Reflections for the Mindful Soul. Her latest book is You Don't Have to Change to Change Everything, Six Ways to Shift Your Vantage Point, Stop Striving for Happy, and Find True Well-Being. Beth blogs for Psychology Today and is the creator of the Well-Being Toolkit online program, and she lives in the Boston area.
1:23 Dr. Beth Kerland, welcome to Next Steps Forward. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for your time. I know how busy you are. Beth, there's so much to talk about with you today, but let's make sure we keep your publicist happy by talking first about your latest book. Okay. You Don't Have to Change to Change Everything, Six Ways to Shift Your Vantage Point, Stop Striving for Happy, and Find True Well-Being, which was published earlier this year. A key premise of the book is that it's not about trying to change yourself. It's about meeting yourself where you are. How does someone do that? So I think about that in a couple of different ways. I think it starts with... Awareness. A lot of times we go through our lives, our day, we're on autopilot.
2:07 And so we need to start noticing what's happening here. And especially a lot of my book, a lot of what I'm referring to is really our inner states. What's happening under the hood? What's happening inside here? And so a lot of times we're either just ignoring it. We're not... We're not in tune with it. We may be pushing away what's going on. And when we meet ourselves where we are, we bring awareness to what's happening. So it's kind of like... I think about it like shining a flashlight in a dark room. If you're in a pitch black room, you're trying to get from point A to point B, and there's obstacles, you'd be tripping and stumbling.
2:50 If you turn on a flashlight, the room's illuminated and the obstacles don't go away, but you could see more clearly what's there. And it's then kind of holding a space, allowing and accepting and acknowledging whatever is happening as a starting point, because I don't think we're often taught how to do that, or we're biologically wired to often do otherwise, or we get caught up in this automatic pilot. So it's really about meeting and greeting what's here as a starting point, and from there, seeing... What's needed? What's helpful? How can I be present?
3:31 I think about it like if you've ever been in the presence of just a really good friend who will just sit and listen and hold a space for wherever you're at. In that kind of presence, there's a way in which just whatever's there has a space to show up. So I guess that's... Yeah. Nope. That's a great place to start. Now, let's focus on that. An important word, change. Would you elaborate on why we don't have to, quote, change to change everything? And how does change come about if we're not changing ourselves? Yeah. So I had fun with the title a little bit, and really thinking about this idea of change that most people think about change.
4:19 And I think especially in the self-help world, there's often can be a sense of, I need to fix myself. I need... There's something wrong, and it needs to be fixed. I need to change myself. I need to change how I'm feeling in order to be okay. Or I need to change my circumstances, and there's certainly nothing wrong and can be helpful doing that. But sometimes we can't always change that. So the focus of this book is really about how do we change our relationship to what's happening inside of us? So it's not about... I don't want to fix and change what's arising, but I can change where I'm standing, where I'm looking from.
5:03 So for example, me being caught, let's say, in a moment of stress and overwhelm, if I'm kind of swallowed up in that moment, I'm activated, I'm triggered, I'm just kind of overtaken, it happens. It happens to all of us. But if I shift where I'm looking from, and now I become... I'm aware of Beth, who is struggling with this difficult moment, and I'm able to kind of have this mindful view of stepping outside of it enough to see what's happening, that shifts the vantage point, that shifts the lens, and it allows for a lot of different inner resources that are already here that we can then begin to tap into.
5:56 So I think about... I think about this idea we don't have to change to change everything, that we have these amazing inner resources, but we don't always know how to access them. And when we can shift our vantage point, shift where we're looking from, shift our perspective, we're not changing ourselves, we're not even changing our external circumstances, but things begin to change from there. And happy to kind of dive deeper into that, but just kind of a little overview. And we will. And that's a great place to start. I appreciate that. You believe that we don't typically listen to our inner experiences. First, what are inner experiences? And second, what is it about inner experiences that causes us not to open up?
6:41 Yeah. So when I'm talking about inner experiences, I'm really talking about what we would call our emotions, physical sensations that we experience in our body. So it might also be a tension, a tightness. Sometimes my anxiety can be expressed as heart beating faster. So it might have more of a physiological expression to it. But just this inner, what I would say, especially with some of the more difficult emotions, inner turbulence that we all feel in the midst of the ups and downs of our day. And so here's the thing, that we're biologically wired, and many of us, myself certainly, socially and culturally conditioned as well, to push away what's unpleasant and to seek what's pleasant.
7:34 And that was a really adaptive strategy for our Stone Age ancestors, helped with survival. And yet in our modern lives, what we are often wired to do is push away those internal experiences that are unpleasant. And so in doing so, we can actually cut ourselves off from a great source of information and also. So from parts of ourselves that may want to be seen and heard and acknowledged in order to move through whatever is happening, you know, in that moment in our life. In your experience, what happens to us when we stuff down those unpleasant emotions rather than dealing with them head on?
8:18 Yeah. So I think about it a little bit like putting a lid on a pot of boiling water sometimes, you know, that eventually. If that water is boiling long enough, it begins to spill over, begins to kind of leak over the sides and that kind of thing. And, you know, most of the research that I've come across shows that in the long term, there are times and places, I will say for sure, that it may be appropriate or even necessary to put away our emotions, to deal immediately with some threat at hand or that kind of thing. But in the long term. When we suppress or avoid or push away some of these inner experiences, first of all, it takes a lot of energy to do that.
9:07 You know, imagine standing at the door and holding the, you know, pressing the door so that this, you know, unpleasant visitor can't come through. You know, that can become exhausting after a while. We can exhaust our resources. And in the long term, you know, again, the research shows us that for our psychological well-being. Being able to find some middle ground where we're not overtaken by these emotions, right? We don't want to be flooded. We don't want to be, you know, so, so overwhelmed that we can't, we can't deal with them. But on the other hand, the other extreme of pushing away, avoiding, suppressing, that kind of thing doesn't tend to work so well in the long term.
9:51 So where, where is there a middle ground in which we can meet and greet? And, you know, meet ourselves where we are and work from there. You know, I was just taking some notes. We were talking there and you kind of touched on a few different things that I was writing down. You talked about how it takes energy and it's exhausting to meet these challenges head on. Why is it so hard for us to talk about some of our problems or admit that we might need help? Is it because we don't want to seem weak? Is it because it takes so much energy? Stigma, I know is a big word. What is it? All of the above? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I, I have. I have so many people who have come into my office over the years and I've been sitting with patients now for over 30 years and, um, and so many people will come in feeling like there's something wrong with me that I'm feeling this way, you know, and they might have experienced like a really significant loss and even, you know, start crying or something and they say, oh, I'm sorry.
10:49 I'm sorry. I shouldn't, you know, I should be stronger. So I think we get these messages. Um, from lots of different places about how we need to be or what we should or shouldn't feel. Um, and so that can, you know, I guess show up in terms of, um, just feeling like I should be able to deal with this on my own. I should be stronger. I shouldn't need help. Um, and that kind of thing. And what I've seen, I feel like I have such a privilege from, from my seat. You know, over these 30 years of, um, of just seeing like we're all the common humanity that we all experience.
11:33 Um, and, and how essential it is to just have those connections and to be able to seek help in whatever form that takes. Of course, I'm biased in terms of therapy and how helpful it's been for myself, certainly through the years. And, you know, I, I see for my patients, but, um, but I think help can come in lots of different forms. And, um, and, and just being able to recognize that we're human and yeah, these, these struggles are probably more common than most people realize, you know, whatever they may be going through. They're not alone. I do a lot of work in the veteran and first responder mental health space.
12:15 And right before COVID, I'd really seen a shift globally in the mental health sort of status of everybody of the world. And then obviously COVID hit and we'll talk a little bit about it later. But, but, but, you know, I've been waiting for, and we're seeing it now that what I'm calling the tsunami effect of the mental health crisis post COVID. Now, the one good thing that I've been saying over the last year or so since the pandemic ended is that the one positive thing that happened throughout COVID is that it put a big spotlight on mental health and it's okay to not be okay. We should be here that all the time. Um, I referenced Jim Ursae, the owner of the Indianapolis Colts. I'm dying to get him on the show. Uh, but he created a campaign called kicking the stigma and is really out there publicly doing his works with one of their, uh, star linebackers.
12:56 We were seeing a lot more, uh, athletes. You're seeing more movie stars coming forward on this. Do you think that that will help with a cultural shift in terms of saying, you know, there's something wrong with me. I don't want to talk about it. I'm just gonna bottle it up versus if Michael Phelps can be out there talking about committing suicide or, um, smiles or anyone else. We've seen a few golfers lately, a golfer about a month ago or a few months ago committed suicide. Do you think by having people like that out there, it's going to change that narrative for us? Absolutely. I think that can be really, really helpful for people, especially to, you know, look out at people who are well known in some capacity or maybe, you know, um, if, yeah, I know somebody who I admire out there and they're sharing their story and they're being authentic and, you know, people sharing about, yeah, things like depression and anxiety are a lot of people struggle with it.
13:51 And I think there is so much shame and there can be so much stigma, stigma around that. Um, but yeah, if I can hear stories of other people out there that are in the pop culture or in, you know, the, whatever, whatever different, uh, realms and, and hear other people going through something like that, then there's a sense of, okay, I'm not alone, you know, and other people are going through this too. And I think it really can help to decrease that stigma for sure. Um, and, and recognize, yep. These are, this is just part of our human experience. And again, going back to what you say, and it's okay to ask for help.
14:32 It's okay to talk about these things. It's important to do so. It's important for our healing. And one thing I've learned in some of the research I did in the first responder space, which I think can transfer over to the general population, if you will. I always thought there was one specific traumatic event that would affect a first responder. They pulled a dead body of a car. They found a dead child, something like that. That would certainly affect anybody. But the consensus was it was 25 or 30 years of traumatic event after traumatic event after event. Do you think that transfers over to I'll call it mainstream population? I know that their job is significantly different than most of ours, but is it more common to have a series or at least more than one traumatic event to weigh on somebody?
15:17 Yeah, I think, you know, again, from sitting with people for so many years and, and I guess maybe I have, you know, sampling bias, perhaps in some respect, but, but I think that, you know, most of the people who come through my door are pretty representative of, you know, the general population. And, and I think that this idea of, I think of it as like big T trauma and little T trauma. And that even when we don't experience maybe some of those more big T trauma, we don't experience some of those more big T trauma. Traumas, traumatic events. Most of us have experienced a lot of little T traumas.
16:02 You know, the things that, you know, being bullied in third grade or, or having, you know, a parent maybe who yells and, and screams in the house. Well-meaning, but not knowing how else to, you know, manage a situation or, you know, whatever those kinds of events that we just as human beings that we experience. So. So I think that there can, yeah. And those things can accumulate and they affect how we see the world and, and how our nervous system responds to things and, and these beliefs that get kind of go under the surface of our awareness.
16:43 So we begin to operate going through the world with certain beliefs about ourselves, about, you know, the world, about. You know, how we see ourselves and, and those beliefs often can be distorted. They can be inaccurate. They can be based on really early information. We do the best we could at age six or four or seven, you know, to, to make sense of the world. But then we carry those beliefs around with us, not realizing that at age 20 or 30 or 50, they don't really fit us anymore. They're not so accurate. And yet, you know, we may not be. We may not be aware that those are still guiding our behaviors.
17:26 Big T trauma versus little T trauma. I've never heard that before. And I hope you don't mind if I use that going forward. It makes, makes complete sense. Yeah. So you write about six vantage points. Would you share them with us and why each are so important? Sure. And you tell me how much detail you can probably talk an hour about each one, but. You have 40 minutes. Go for it. Yeah. Just dip our toe. Into each one. So I guess what I would say as a starting point is that. I believe, and this is not, you know, my belief is just coming from the research and my reading and studying over the years, but that, that wellbeing is an innate capacity that we all have, but it can be hard to access.
18:16 Sometimes, especially, you know, in the ups and downs of our life. And it's not something that we typically learn. Uh, it's not something that we typically learn, but it can be hard to access, but it can be hard to, uh, how to access, how to strengthen, um, I also heard Richard Davidson, who's, um, one of my favorite neuroscientists, and he does some wonderful research, but talks about this idea. He, he said at one point, I may be quoting or paraphrasing, um, wellbeing is fundamentally no different than learning to play the cello. So, you know, this idea that it's also a skill that can be cultivated. And so each of these shifts of vantage point, as I think it was us. Well, into, into this, this deep well of wellbeing that is there for each of us.
18:58 But again, maybe we don't quite know how to really open that door, if you will. So, um, and each of these vantage points also gives us a way to work with some of this inner turbulence, if you will, the ups and downs of our day-to-day lives that we experience. And most of us are taught, we're taught all manner of things in school. You know, we're taught, um, whatever I won't name it right. But just thinking about even what we're taught in our home and our homes, in our schools and our workplaces. And I would say most of the time, we're not taught what to do when we come up against these inner energies that are more unpleasant.
19:41 And, and so we maybe tend to flounder. We tend to resort to the biological pushing away or avoiding or suppressing or getting overwhelmed by. So each of these vantage points is, is a way of really working with, with that. What do we do with that? So all that being said, a little background, um, the first vantage point that I talk about is the anchor view. And the anchor view really has to do with, um, we'll give you a little metaphor, but if you imagine that you're swimming in the ocean and a big storm whips up and you know, you try to fight against that storm, you might exhaust your resources. Um, if you let that storm, sweep you away, that's probably not going to be so great either.
20:26 Um, but if you imagine that there's an anchor, a boat that's anchored nearby and you could grab onto a swim over to that boat, grab the rope that's anchored deep to the ocean floor. And now there's a sense of stability. There's a sense of safety, even in the middle of this storm from that vantage point, you're no longer caught in the storm. In the storm being swept away, you kind of have this safe anchor to hold and you may not be able to stop the storm, but you can watch it pass by and there's more ease there. And so the anchor view is really all about how do we grab that metaphorical anchor and really help our autonomic nervous system to feel more safe in the midst of, you know, some of these difficult, emotional emotions that we experience.
21:24 Um, and I guess again, I'm just trying to think about that a quick, quick way to have this make sense for people. But essentially we have survival. What I think of as survival, wiring and thriving wiring. Um, we have these old survival pathways that are very present in our biology that people will be familiar with as kind of that classic fight flight or freeze response, or, or stress response. So when we come up against threats, quote threats in our environment, no longer the saber tooth tiger for the most part, but you know, it might be the traffic jams or too much to do, or getting the kids off to school or, or, you know, uh, work deadlines or financial stress or whatever that is.
22:10 Um, our body can go into kind of a protective mode that was adaptive and reflexive. Um, and we, in essence, the body's getting ready to fight. Or to flee sometimes to free, free go into a more of that freeze or shut down response when we meet, you know, face these challenges in our day. And, and that's, again, this is a natural adaptive response that we all experience, but a lot of us can get stuck there without realizing it. We can get stuck in the, let's say that this stress responses, and that can show up as anxiety and worry.
22:50 And, uh, you know, sometimes, you know, more of the depressive moods or irritability or anger, these kinds of things. Um, and the anchor view is all about helping to really bring to shift physiologically. What's happening in our body to bring more cues of safety, to work with mind, body practices that can help us activate different networks, different circuits in our body. And brain and nervous system that when we can bring in a little bit more balanced energy, we have access to creativity.
23:31 We have access to being, seeing a bigger perspective. We have access to problem solving. We have access to all these things that, um, you know, we're, we're not able to access when we're in that fight or flight mode. So, uh, the anchor view is, is really learning how to work with our biology. Um, and understanding that. And, and again, using some of these mind, body practices that can help us to find the calm and in the middle of the storm. Um, and I guess I'll see if you know, great analogy. And it's just a teaser to get folks to buy your book. Uh, and that being said, where can people find your most recent book?
24:11 They can find it on my website, bethcurland.com. Uh, they can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you know, any of the major outlets where books are, sold. Perfect. And, you know, we're talking about six vantage points. Do you have a favorite vantage point or one that you find that's most powerful? Oh, it's hard to pick. I guess they're all, you love all your children equally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I would say I'll share this one with you. The one that I have found most transformative in my own life and with my patients, I think is the one that I call the compassionate parent view. And so this vantage point is all about, uh, what do we do when we come up against, again, some of these more unpleasant emotional experiences in our day-to-day lives.
24:54 And a lot of times if you think about, I use this analogy of a parent could respond to, let's say a child's in distress. A child is upset, something they really wanted to do didn't work out. They got canceled, you know, and so they're feeling really sad. They're really down. And the parents are like, well, you know, And the parent could respond in one of three ways. They might ignore that child completely, and just let the child kind of flounder on their own. Um, they might say to that child, you know? Hey, snap out of it, um, you know, cut it out.
25:37 Stop whining. Just like, move on, wipe off that. You know, wipe away those tears. Let's just, you know, see that smile. Um, or they could maybe sit next to the child, put their arm around the child and say, um, you know, you know, I can understand how disappointed you are, that it was something you were really looking forward to, and I see how upset you are. And I'm here with you. And, you know, how can we, you know, move forward through this. And I think most of us would probably say I would like that third parent response, what if I was upset. But when it comes to ourselves, we often treat ourselves like that first or second parent. We kind of dismiss our own emotions, tell ourselves to, you know, hey, you know, just put it away, or cut it out, or stop whining, or whatever that is.
26:26 And we don't often learn how to meet our own inner distress with that kind of compassionate response. So the compassionate parent view is all about how we can really be with our own whatever anger, or sadness, or irritability, or whatnot, in a way that there's a kind of alchemy, I think, that happens when we are able to do that. When we're able to meet our distress in this kind of a way that really, and again, I think going back to something I said at the beginning, if you think about maybe a time when you were really upset about something, and you sat with a good friend, you know, and you just said, oh, my God, you wouldn't believe what happened. I had this terrible day. And if you really feel supported, and heard, and seen, that friend doesn't maybe need to even say much, you know.
27:19 But you just get that feeling like, hey, I'm here with you. And in that, there's like some ease that washes over. You know, there's a sense like, ah, I can move on. I can handle this. Okay, I can see more clearly, you know, how I want to move forward. When we learn how to do that for ourselves, that's where the transformation, I think, really comes in. And so, yeah, that can be so powerful. Well, I think to that point, what are your thoughts on just actually saying it to somebody, a close friend, a confidant, whatever, maybe like, this is bothering me. I just got to get it off my chest. Is that sort of a step one to sort of opening up for deeper conversations or deeper discussions on the harder topics?
28:04 Yeah. I mean, I think probably not enough people do that in the sense, again, going back to what you said, feeling like I got to hold this in, or I shouldn't ask for help, or that kind of thing. So I think there can be... I think there can be some immense support in being able to start there or to share, you know, to have some, a trusted person who you can just talk and are not going to feel judged and not going to necessarily, not somebody who's necessarily going to jump in and try to fix it for you, but just hold the space and really listen, you know? And that can be a starting point. And then again, learning how to do that for ourselves.
28:49 Can really help to create this kind of emotional alchemy. I guess I think of it as in a way that just makes things easier to bear. You write about survival wiring, which I think you referenced earlier about being in the ocean during a storm versus thriving wiring. Would you take a deep dive into the difference and why it's important to recognize between the two? Yeah. So again, I find this so helpful for myself. And I, you know, and I share this a lot, but I, I'm not a person who's going to sit and say, I'm wired kind of more on the type A anxious by nature and temperament and so forth. So I, I've, I'm a good case study for myself, you know, like really working with this over my lifetime. And, and I share that. I feel like I'm an expert on stress because I'm so good at feeling it myself. And so it, to understand that there is this, this biological adaptive wiring that we have that is really trying to protect us. It's trying to protect us from a saber tooth tiger. Our brain doesn't really recognize the difference between what it's doing biologically, revving up the heart, revving up the blood pressure, getting us to, you know, get all activated and whatnot to deal with a threat being stuck in traffic late for an important meeting versus that saber tooth tiger coming at us.
30:16 And, and so when we can begin with an understanding of that a little bit and, oh, okay, that's my survival wiring trying to, to protect me either by giving me resources to fight, to flee or to freeze. Those are all adaptive protective responses. They're not bad. They just might be not the resources that I most need to actually meet the modern day challenge at hand. And so when I can then understand that, oh, there's also this, uh, social engagement system it's sometimes referred to. And we have the, I guess, without getting too much, but anybody who's, who's a little, um, interested in the science, this whole ventral vagal pathway, this vagus nerve has different branches and this ventral pathway or vagus nerve has connections to our heart.
31:08 It has, um, connections to, you know, lots of muscles in our face and our ears and all this stuff. And, um, that helps to, to bring a balance into our nervous system. Um, so that when we, when we're starting to experience stress, if we have ways of accessing and bringing more balance into the autonomic nervous system, um, it, it allows us to then access, um, step out of that primitive circuitry and begin to access our higher cortex. Uh, our thinking brain, we can, we can problem solve better. We have access to bigger perspective on things. And to, you know, when you're not being chased by a tiger, it makes sense that you'd be able to explore, right. And you would be able to invent and be creative and be affiliative and, you know, um, seek out support from the tribe. And these were also important survival strategies that, that helped our ancestors.
32:15 Um, and, and, and when we can understand that and learn how to, you know, and I'll give you an example, like during the pandemic, um, the early stages for me, for many of us, I think, but I was really aware of myself being often in the state of, um, you know, fight, flight, freeze, uh, a lot of anxiety and uncertainty. And when I could just recognize that kind of meet myself where I'm at, you know, maybe I'm waking up in the middle of the night and it's like, okay, this heart's going and all this, the thoughts going through my head and just reckon, oh, this is my, this is my survival wiring trying to protect me. And yet these resources, all of this activation isn't actually helping keep me safer right now, but there are other things that I can do. You know, I can put my hand on my heart. I can begin to slow down my exhalations. I can begin and support of the people in my life. I can, you know, uh, bring myself to the awareness in this moment. I'm in the safety of my bedroom and I could feel the mattress underneath me. You know, these things then bring balance into my nervous system and I'm then better equipped to maybe say, okay, how can I go forward from here? Um, begin to gain access to these other resources. So long, long answer. I could keep talking about that, but I hope that's a little bit helpful.
33:45 It is. And something completely off topic, but I have to ask, there are a lot of ferocious beasts out there that I'd think of. You've referenced saber tooth tiger about four or five times. What just, I'm just curious what the connection is with that. That's just something I wouldn't think about. It's just like the most fierce animal you can think of. So I guess I just, what I've heard talked about, you know, in my own studies of, um, just understanding the evolutionary, um, value. Value of the, these mechanisms that we still live by that are still very much wired into our biology. And so that a lot of these things really evolved during, you know, that period of time when our ancestors were faced with that kind of that external physical threat of the saber tooth tiger. And so all of these responses, we really helped our species survive. And again, the challenge and, you know, we need, we still need, and I think that wiring serves an important place. Um, but it can sometimes still take over at times in our modern lives when, when there may be other resources that could be even more effective for helping us meet our challenges. So I guess, helpful. No, very helpful. Thank you. Yeah. I like to call a show a show first. We've never had a saber tooth tiger reference before. So it was our first time. So I was just curious about that. So thank you.
35:14 Yeah. So Beth, a few moments ago, you referenced yourself as being a case study. I understand that your own healing journey played a part in your desire to write this book. Would you share that story with us? Yeah. So I guess I would say kind of going back to when I was in high school, um, my mom died in a car accident when I was 15. And so, you know, that was pretty significant trauma for my family. And I, and I think, you know, that experience certainly shaped me in so many ways, um, as, as trauma does for, you know, anybody who's lived through that. Um, and, and so there was a lot of my own healing journey. I think a journey would have been there anyway, you know, maybe in some, some similar ways, but certainly for me, there was, uh, this sense of, you know, how, how to, process all this enormous grief. And interesting for me, you know, it was really, I would say most profoundly when I had my own kids, when I became a mother, that I really did my deepest healing work around that. Um, because I think there were ways that I kind of pushed it away and held it at bay and moved on. And, you know, I know at the time, like I, as I recall, I never missed a day of school. Um, I got straight A's. I just kind of mustered on.
36:53 And there were many ways that, that, you know, that may have been adaptive at that time. But for me, like really learning how to be with and, and be present to that grief and some of these other feelings that I was trying to avoid was definitely a big piece. You know, my own personal healing journey. One of your books, gifts of the rain puddle poems, meditations, and reflections for the mindful soul is obviously a book of poems, reflections, and meditations. Was that sort of writing mainly a hobby for you? Is it therapeutic? Yeah. So I would say, um, I remember, I think I wrote my first poem when I was six years old. Um, and interestingly, yeah, it was when we were moving, making a big move at that time. And I was feeling sad about, um, leaving my friend and that kind of thing. And so poetry became for me at a really early age, I think a way to express, um, these emotions that I hadn't maybe otherwise I didn't have words for. Um, but somehow through my writing, that was just a vehicle for me to do that. And then over the years, I really found that writing poetry allowed me to just be present with these deep emotions within me, whether more of the awe, you know, of life and also the, the grief and the struggles and the, you know, challenges,
38:29 um, and being able to, and so in some ways, looking back, I think that my, my writing poetry is kind of like a mindfulness meditation and action in some ways. Um, and actually for, for the first younger part of my life, I really thought I was going to be a writer as a profession because I was just drawn to that. And then I kind of came across the path of psychology and went that route, but it's been really fun as you know, my later years here, my adult years to be able to circle back to that writing and connect to it in different ways. And, um, you know, even in this new book there, I, there's not poetry, but there's a lot of personal, vignettes and a little bit more poetic writing, I would say at times in sharing some of my personal story that, um, yeah, has been, has been just a fun expression for me and, um, helpful for, for my own therapeutic growth. No, thank you for sharing that. You're a mind body coach.
39:32 I know it's going to be a new term and concept to some folks in our audience. So let's delve into how psychological principles integrate with our physical health and wellness practices. Can you explain what mind body coaching involves? Yeah. So, I mean, I think it may be different for each person, uh, to some degree. Um, but for me, it's like, I am so passionate about, because of my own experiences in, in working with mind body practices and, um, being able to, you know, teach them to other people over the years that, um, and I just see how, valuable they are and in terms of, of transformation and wellbeing and all of that. So, so it's really about being able to teach people these tools so that they can use it in their own lives to access their inner resources and tap into this well of wellbeing and to really be able to live their fullest life. Um, and, and I get a lot of excitement and, you know, being able to do that and really, and, and seeing, you know, mostly because of just seeing the effect and how helpful it is for others when they can access these different modalities. What are the key benefits of mind body coaching for mental and physical health? Oh, what are the, the key benefits of mind body practices? Um,
41:03 wow. You know, I, I think, I think so many things. Um, I mean, there's a lot of interesting research I've just been listening to even this week to like new things coming out about the power of the mind and body in terms of our physical health. It's quite, quite remarkable. Um, you know, that a lot of physical conditions have, um, let's say there may be a stress-based component or that stress can exacerbate. So what happens is when our body is in a state of stress, we're not able to, we're not able to, we're not able to of stress, right? We are preparing to deal with that threat of again, quote that, that metaphorical saber tooth tiger. And so, um, resources are getting allocated towards, um, towards preparing our bodies to fight or to flee or, or to freeze, to shut down. When we're in a more balanced state, our body is in a very different state where the focus is on growth, restoration, and healing.
42:11 And so again, when we're not, you know, when, when, when our nervous system is, is feeling more grounded in safety, our bodies can heal. It can, you know, can focus on cell growth, all these things, immune functioning and so forth. So just from a physical perspective, it's really quite fascinating that when we can teach people how to help bring more balance into their bodies. to, um, work with that stress response and have ways of calming and shifting and, and so forth, being able to tap into more what I call heartfelt emotions. Um, there, there's some very profound physical and physiological changes that can happen that can affect our physical health, but I think equally in terms of, um, of our mental health and, and wellbeing as well. And again, I think about this when we can tap into what I call this newer operating system, that, that sort of thriving circuits, it's kind of like opening up. I think of about like opening up a treasure chest, unlocking a treasure chest. And in that treasure chest, there's care, compassion, creativity, perspective, um, self-compassion, uh, you know, all of these different kinds of equanimity and calm and clarity and, um, whatever, all these things that become accessible to us. And that, those things are profoundly
43:46 supportive for our mental health and for our wellbeing. And so those mind body practices kind of give the key to open up this treasure chest. It's one way of thinking about it. Well, I guess part two is how do you integrate mind body coaching with more traditional therapeutic approaches? Um, yeah, so I, you know, everybody may have a different take on this, but as a therapist, I can certainly say that, um, not in, not in all cases, but where it's appropriate, you know, a lot of my patients, I will, I will integrate or bring in some kinds of mind body practices to help with whatever, you know, situations we're addressing. Um, and, and I've really seen some profound healing that can happen, even going back to what I was talking about, that compassionate parent view.
44:40 But there are different mind body practices of, of teaching people how to, uh, you know, be compassionate towards themselves when they're experiencing inner distress. And we can work with that in through meditation or through imagery or visualization, and it can be immensely powerful in terms of, um, really helping people shift, shift to their vantage points, shift the way that they're relating to their inner experience. Um, teaching people, you know, a lot of people who come to therapy have stress of various kinds. And so having tools to really be able to know what to do to work with stress or anxiety and, and, you know, and we even trauma, you know, so much of the research with trauma, um, and then some of the work of Bessel van der Kolk and others shows that the body is, is a huge piece of the healing that we can't, you know, we can't heal trauma just from the head alone.
45:40 And just from talking, I mean, the talking therapy can be really helpful, but when we also incorporate the body, then I think that's where profound healing really happens. Beth, you said that when you first studied psychology, there's a big focus on quote, identifying what was wrong with people and trying to fix this. Isn't that what patients expect that there's something wrong with me, uh, something wrong in my life and I need you to help me fix it so I can have a better life and better relationships. I think that may be true for a lot of people who come to therapy. I think that's a big focus. I think that's a big focus. Um, and, and in my book, I really tried to like flip around this whole fix it kind of, um, you know, approach. Um, so I was very fortunate in the year after graduate school. So when, when I did my internship, I worked with Dr. Robert Brooks, who was at that time, um, in charge of the, uh, pro a program at McLean hospital.
46:40 Working with children. And so I studied with him for a year. And one of the things that Bob taught me that I share in the book is this idea that, uh, change comes about not by finding what's wrong and fixing it, but by finding what's right and strengthening it. And I feel like that's such a profound kind of shift in the way that we look at things. And he worked with, he was working at that time. And he was working at that time. And he was working at that time. And he was working at that time. And he was working at that time. And he was working with, you know, children with some pretty significant behavioral issues. And what he found is that rather than going in and trying to say, okay, this, here's the problem with this kid and we got to, you know, go in and fix, he would find and help the teachers and others and parents find the child's islands of competence, as he called it, the things that they're doing well, the strengths that they have and build upon that and really strengthen that. And that approach made such a huge difference in these kids' behavior.
47:41 And so I really took this model with me and through all these years. And so this actually became one of the vantage points that I talk about the mirror view in the book. And often when we look in the real mirror or the metaphorical mirror, we see what's wrong, what's missing, what we don't like. You know, we have this negativity bias of our brain as human beings to focus on the mistakes we make that the, you know, the things that we feel like we do wrong or the things we feel are broken or that we need to fix, you know. And oftentimes we can overlook our strengths. We can overlook the things we're already doing well that are supporting us. We can overlook these inner qualities that we have that are maybe there, but we're not paying attention because our brain is narrowing in on that thing we did wrong and not the 10 things we did well during the day. And so that mirror view is really all about, you know, the things that we're already doing well that are supporting us.
48:40 Being able to look in the mirror and have it reflect back the strengths, the positive qualities we have, our islands of confidence, as Bob would call it, these sorts of things that, and I think that's where profound change can really come from. And I think of my role as a therapist in some way as holding up a mirror for people and really helping them see their strengths. You know, somebody might come in having experienced trauma and feel, you know, kind of the sense of, you know, broken in some way or there's something wrong with me or I need to fix it. And I try to hold up a mirror and say, look at all the ways that you've been incredibly resilient in your life. And how do we then like build on this and help you strengthen this, you know, to move forward? You know, you said something very interesting to me a moment ago. You did one bad thing today and you're not focused on the 10 great things you did. Why do we do that? Are we just wired that way? Is it just, we have to be perfect all the time?
49:40 What is that? Yeah, I think it's our evolutionary wiring. And again, it kind of made sense for our Stone Age ancestors to be focused on the negatives, the problem, where the problems were lurking. You know, I need to remember where that tiger is lurking behind what grass over where, you know, and that was more important than remembering, you know, even Rick Hansen, one of my favorite neuropsychologists talks about. Remembering where those carrots might be found, because, you know, if I mess up on, you know, and forget where that tiger is, no more carrots forever, right? So that became more important for our ancestors to be able to notice, anticipate the problems, anticipate, you know, what could go wrong. Again, smelling the roses might be lovely, but that wasn't going to help our ancestors, or survive. So our brains are still, we carry a lot of this old wiring with us. And the more we can shine the light on that and understand that, we can really work with it.
50:49 We briefly touched on COVID and mental health early on the show. The World Health Organization declared an end to the pandemic phase of COVID-19 on May 5th, 2023. That's been almost 18 months ago, but there's been a prevailing thought that the mental health impact of the pandemic would last for much longer. How has or did the COVID-19 pandemic affect your practice? Hmm. Well, I guess, I mean, one thing that strikes me so much is I feel like access to mental health, in some ways, you know, in a positive way that the telehealth, right, virtual visit that have become so commonplace during the pandemic has made mental health more accessible. But at the same time, what I've seen such a change in the way that mental health has changed, you know, I think that's a challenge with is that there's not enough mental health providers at this point for that, you know, I've had so many people reach out and say, I've been trying for, you know, six months to find somebody. And so I think the increase in mental health issues, or maybe just awareness of that has made it or the shortage of, you know, I'm not sure exactly there. But I think, you know, that that becomes a challenge. And I think that what I've seen, too, is just this developmentally, wherever people were at during the pandemic, you know, you take kids, whatever point in their development, were they graduating high school? Were they in the midst of college? Were they, you know, in the middle of a transition or whatnot? And some of
52:21 that, I feel like kind of got a little bit frozen in time or, you know, stunted, in some ways, just challenges that kids are still working through adults as well. No, agree. We went through that. My middle daughter just graduated high school. Last week, and, you know, has the first year and a half of COVID was it so just a big transition time. So I'm waiting for a Harvard Business School case study or some psychological review on all that to come out, but the jury still out. Beth, we've just got about two minutes left. How would someone get in touch with you if they want you to speak to a group? And again, how can they find you don't have to change to change everything and your other books? Yeah, so my website is a good place to sort of access a lot of different things, including a bunch of free resources that I have on there.
53:08 And there's a contact form as well. I love to hear from people. So and that is my name, Beth Kurland, B-E-T-H-K-U-R-L-A-N-D.com. And my books are all on there with links as well. But people can also go on to Amazon or again, whatever your favorite, you know, bookstore online and order it. I also have an audio book, actually, that came out recently as well. I was who like to listen as opposed to read. Just in time for the drive to the beach. Yeah, yeah. Dr. Beth Kurland, thank you so much for being with us today.
53:49 Oh, thank you so much. It was my pleasure. No, thank you. I'm Chris Meek, run of time. We'll see you next week. Same time, same place. Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward. Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward. Be sure to join Chris, Meek for another great show next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific Time and 1 p.m. Eastern Time on the Voice America Empowerment Channel. This week, make things happen in your life.
54:38 We'll see you next week.