You’re Not the Only One w/ Dr. Marie Murphy

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There are few things that make people successful.

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Taking a step forward to change their lives is one successful trait, but it takes some

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time to get there.

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How do you move forward to greet the success that awaits you?

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Welcome to Next Steps Forward with host Chris Meek.

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Each week, Chris brings on another guest who has successfully taken the next steps forward.

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Now, here is Chris Meek.

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Hello, I'm Chris Meek, and you've tuned in to this week's episode of Next Steps Forward.

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As always, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

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Our special guest today is Dr. Marie Murphy.

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Dr. Murphy is a nonjudgmental coach for people involved in infidelity.

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She's trained and certified as a life coach with her training come from the Life Coach

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School and Martha Beck's Wayfinder Life Coach Training.

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Her bachelor's degree is in sociology and human sexuality studies from San Francisco

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State University and she earned a PhD in the sociology of sexuality.

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From the University of California at San Diego.

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For years, she researched and taught about many things related to sex, sexuality, love,

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romantic relationships, and family life.

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Her training and work in these realms have given her countless insights into the human

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experience and how we can deal with the many challenges associated with being human.

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Dr. Marie Murphy, welcome to Next Steps Forward.

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Thank you, Chris.

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It's so nice to be here with you today.

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No, I appreciate your time.

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And this is obviously a fascinating topic, an uncomfortable topic.

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Yeah.

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Your work is especially interesting because you help people who are actively cheating

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or actively engaging in some kind of infidelity.

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Many people think of cheaters as bad people, not just bad people, but terrible people,

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absolute worst kind of people.

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Why is it important for there to be support and empathy or at least understanding for

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people who are actively cheating and not just for folks who are being cheated on?

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Yeah, great question.

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So first and foremost, even if we don't like infidelity, even if we don't like the idea

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of being cheated on.

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And we've got to recognize that cheating is a very human thing.

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And for better or worse, it's a very common human thing.

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And so first and foremost, if humans are engaging in this behavior, we've got to have some human

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empathy for them.

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There are brothers and sisters, there are siblings just trying to make their way through

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life in this world, trying to figure their things out.

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And why would we not want to have support and compassionate assistance available for

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these folks?

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That's one thing.

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But the other thing is, if people want to stop cheating, which some people most certainly

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do, stopping with, well, you're a bad person and you're doing something bad doesn't get

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anyone anywhere, right?

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You just said you suspect some people don't want to stop cheating.

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That's true.

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Really?

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Yes.

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I not only suspect that, I have lots of evidence of that.

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I guess, what is in the DNA of somebody who's like that?

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Well, I mean, we have to remember.

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Humans aren't necessarily designed to be monogamous in any sort of innate way.

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And some people like to have a stable relationship and then other things going on on the side.

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And there are certainly ways to do this ethically, right?

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That's an option.

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But not everyone sees that as an option for them, rightly or wrongly.

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And some folks do choose to stay in a committed and ostensibly monogamous relationship and

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cheat habitually.

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Right?

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I have a feeling I'm going to learn a lot today.

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Every day, right?

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Exactly.

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That's why we're here.

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Yes.

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So I suspect that the people who are cheating have something missing in their life.

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Is there a common denominator of what that missing ingredient is?

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Well, it depends, right?

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I mean, some people, the thing that's missing in their life is something in their relationship

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that they would like to have.

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So it's not that they're in the wrong career and they're deeply miserable or they're lacking

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excitement.

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And they need to find that in some other way or another.

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For some people, it's really something that's absent from their primary relationship that

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they don't know what to do about.

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And so cheating sort of either intentionally or unintentionally becomes the way they meet

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those missing needs.

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But to your point, for some people, it is that they are dying to write the next great

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novel and they just can't find it in them to sit their butt in the chair and write every

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day.

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And having an affair is a lovely distraction from that kind of angst.

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Is there, I'll say, a common theme in terms of how infidelity starts?

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Is it people on business trips or conferences or someone from your kid's sports team?

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All of those things that you mentioned do happen.

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Yes.

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And we have to remember that infidelity comes in so many different shapes and sizes.

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We tend to think of the kind of classic example of someone who's married.

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Having an affair with someone else.

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And that certainly is one sort of infidelity situation.

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But there are so many others.

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So without getting encyclopedic about it, what you describe or the things you describe

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certainly are patterns that I see.

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But there are so many others as well.

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And maybe as a follow-up, a little bit more detail, what are some of the most common reasons

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your clients cite for cheating on their partners?

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So this is a biggie that I think everyone should...

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A lot of folks find themselves in a committed relationship that they're moderately to severely

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unhappy in, and they don't know what to do about it.

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And so whether by design or by happenstance, they find themselves connecting with someone

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else and that person's amazing and, oh my God, they feel more alive than they have in

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years and everything's wonderful.

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And all of a sudden they're officially having an affair and it's kind of like, oh my God,

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how did this happen?

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Sometimes.

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And sometimes, you know, Ashley Madison has however many million users it has for a reason,

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right?

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Some people are intentionally and deliberately seeking this out.

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From your perspective, how often is the situation of a partner not meeting the cheater's emotional

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needs and how often is the situation where no matter what that partner does, it's not

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going to stop the other person from cheating?

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Yeah, both scenarios are common, right?

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We love to have this...

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Well, I don't know about everyone thinks this way.

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A lot of people think that it's either, you know, there's something missing in the relationship

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and that that can be solved or there's nothing a partner can do and it's always something

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that's like fundamentally wrong with the cheater.

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It's not necessarily an either or type thing.

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Both of those things do happen, but sometimes it's a little bit of both and sometimes it's

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neither.

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And what are some of the common myths about people who cheat that do not line up with

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reality?

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Yeah.

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So one of the common myths we hear is that...

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People who cheat are selfish, narcissistic sociopaths or psychopaths that don't have

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any concern for other people's feelings.

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And I do not see that to be true in my work with clients at all.

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How'd you get into this line of work?

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It's very niche, for lack of a better word.

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Yes.

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Yes, it certainly is.

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So the short answer to that question is that I've always been interested in the things

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that other people find interesting.

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I've always been interested in the things that other people find taboo or stigmatized

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or untouchable.

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And I've always been interested in finding a way to treat stigmatized aspects of human

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behavior in a more neutral and constructive way.

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That's the short answer.

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The longer answer is much longer.

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And I actually devoted two episodes of my own podcast to addressing that question recently.

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So if you want the long answer, you can go look up my podcast, which is called Your Secret

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is Safe With Me.

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And where can we find that?

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What platforms?

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Yeah, it's on all the platforms and it's on my website, which is mariemurphyphd.com.

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Perfect.

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Thank you.

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Yeah.

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You know, I just finished my doctorate a few months ago and I'm looking here again.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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I had a lot more hair three years ago when I started.

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Right.

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Would have never known there's a degree in the sociology of sexuality.

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Yeah.

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So I'm a sociologist by training and my concentration is in sexuality, the sociological study of

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sexuality.

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And even within sociology.

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Sexuality isn't like one of the like main subfields, like inequalities or race or gender,

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but it sure is an important one.

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We need more sociologists studying sexuality.

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No, no question.

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So what are some of the things you see in your work with clients who are cheating that

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you think might surprise the general public?

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Yeah.

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So as I said earlier, people who cheat are not necessarily the selfish, narcissistic,

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conniving jerks that we think they are.

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Some people are doing what they're doing without.

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Concern for other people's feelings.

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But a lot of folks I work with struggle mightily with the actual consequences or imagine consequences

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of their actions upon other people's lives.

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And one of the things that makes infidelity situations so hard to deal with is people's

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fear, or I should say maybe terror of hurting people they care about and disrupting the

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lives of people they care about.

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And that fear is often what keeps.

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People kind of, you know, stuck or paralyzed or in a state of long-term indecision about

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what to do about their infidelity situation.

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You touched on this earlier.

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Different people have different definitions of what infidelity is.

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Yes.

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To one person, it may be physical relationship.

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To another, it may be texting a coworker after hours.

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Do you find that cheaters tend to have a narrower definition of infidelity?

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Not really.

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I mean, sure.

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I see some.

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I see folks who are like, well, you know, like, all right, you know, I didn't have a

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secret family with this person, so it wasn't really cheating, but most of the folks I work

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with, and of course my clientele is a self-selecting audience, so this isn't necessarily representative

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of everyone who cheats, but most of the folks I work with have very, what's the right word?

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Very all encompassing definitions of cheating.

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And in fact, some people who have paid for my help have considered it cheating if they're

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thinking about someone else, right?

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So not all cheaters are like, oh, yeah, you know, like, I can get away with, like, the

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technicalities here.

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Ha, ha, ha.

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No problem.

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This isn't really cheating.

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So as a sociologist, I'm sure there have been some studies done in terms of the percentage

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of the population that are cheaters.

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So I have a lot to say about the research on infidelity.

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And I won't say it all, but let me say a few things.

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One is it's hard to get.

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Get good data on stigmatized behaviors, secretive behaviors.

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It's hard to get good, well, that's another story.

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So I, a lot of times people come to me and they say, well, you know, like I've seen the

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statistics on this, this, and this, and this, and I would say, if you're not scrutinizing

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the study design, if you're not being a sophisticated consumer of the research, you may want to

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take the numbers you read with a grain of salt.

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We really don't know what percentage of the population is engaging in infidelity.

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And that's due in part to the fact that people define infidelity in so many different ways.

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It's hard to capture what's the full picture of what's going on out there.

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That's interesting.

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And do you think another part of it would be just that they don't trust that the information

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is going to be confidential?

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Oh, sure.

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Yeah.

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That is a thing in research for sure.

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If you don't trust your interviewer or you don't trust the data collection instrument,

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people do not give truthful answers for sure.

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So there are emotional affairs and physical affairs.

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Is one more damaging to relationship than the other?

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And because we sometimes see stories that partner emotional affair is more hurtful to

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women than a physical affair.

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Does the question of emotional versus physical differ by gender?

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So what I see is that what counts as hurtful really varies from person to person.

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And I don't know that things break down along gender.

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I just don't understand.

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I'm not sure that research is protocols.

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Actually, it is.

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I'm not sure there's ever been a right answer for everything.

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Maybe some society is mixture of positive and negative with some sort of harm organizational

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kt to a criminal that somebody conducted or Increased their aide that Y Medium that

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they were when they were working.

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Aged girls who help you feel better, regulate, that kind of stuff.

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Like, they just work to do it their own way.

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Like, that's great to me.

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I don't know either.

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gender in terms of percentage-wise, male versus female? So across the board, the most honest

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answer is I don't know. In my practice, I see clients who range in age from their 20s to their

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70s. And over time, the breakdown of my clients has been roughly equal in terms of women and men.

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Although for the last, I don't know, six to nine months or so, I've had three quarters men,

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and I'm not really sure what that's about. I don't know what to attribute that to.

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And maybe one more question regarding research and studies. Is there any data out there in terms of

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who is the first instigator, male or female, percentage-wise?

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Like if we're talking about an affair that has a man and a woman involved in it who starts the

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affair. I don't know of any research like that. And I would say that what counts as starting an

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affair or instigating an affair is really hard to define, right? Is it the first look,

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is it the first text message that isn't strictly about business or baseball or

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neighborhood business? Is it the first kiss? Is it the first time you take your clothes off

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together? Is it the first time you say I love you? Like who knows? What's the starting point?

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A lot of what ifs there.

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Yeah.

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Does the fact that different people have different beliefs about infidelity complicate relationships

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and does it make your work more challenging when you counsel couples?

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I'll answer the second question first. So when I work with couples,

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I'm working with affair couples. I'm working with the people who are involved in the

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illicit affair, so to speak. And what's really interesting, and this might surprise people,

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is that even affair couples have their own sense of what counts as not okay or what counts as

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infidelity within that relationship. So for instance, if one member of the affair couple

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is married or partnered and the other member isn't, and the member of the affair couple who

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isn't in a committed relationship is married or partnered, and the other member isn't, and the

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person who's in that committed relationship starts dating other people, the person who's in

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that committed relationship may see that as cheating, even though, you know, officially

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they're committed to someone else, right? Furthermore, the person, the member of the

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affair couple who isn't ostensibly in a committed relationship may see it as cheating if their

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affair partner does certain things with their spouse, right? Like go on vacation with them or

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have sex with them or tell them that they love them or go out to dinner for more than two hours,

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right?

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The answer to the second question is, yeah, different definitions of infidelity definitely

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make relationships complicated. And there are some, I guess, therapists and coaches out there

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that advise getting really specific about what you consider to be monogamy in order to prevent

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these sorts of misunderstandings. And I think that to an extent, that's great. Stipulating your

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boundaries and relationships is a great thing to do. And what I see a lot is that even when couples

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have really clearly, you know, they're not in a committed relationship, they're not in a committed

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relationship, they're not in a committed relationship, they're not in a committed relationship,

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they're not in a committed relationship, they're not in a committed relationship,

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they're not in a committed relationship, they're not in a committed relationship,

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like this is what counts as cheating to me. This is what's okay with me. That doesn't

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necessarily prevent infidelity from happening. So walk and talk us through from a 30,000 foot

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level, obviously for confidentiality reasons, you just mentioned how you counsel couples that are

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in the affair. Yes. How does that work? Are you trying to help them figure out where they want

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to stay together, help them move back apart? So generally speaking,

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my agenda as a coach is to help people take responsibility for what they have the power

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to control and to learn how to develop a more productive relationship with the things they

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don't have the power to control. And so one example of what this looks like in affair and

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infidelity situations is that people think that other people have the power to make choices for

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them or determine how things unfold for them. And that's not exactly how it works. So I think

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that's how it works. And so what I hope people do, or one of the things I hope people do,

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is start to take their power back. So for instance, with affair couples, sometimes it's like,

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well, I can't leave my partner until my affair partner leaves their partner. And so my affair

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partner is making me continue cheating because they haven't left their spouse yet. No, that's not

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what's happening. You have the power to stop engaging in what you think counts as infidelity

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if you want to. And so I think that's what I hope people do. And so I think that's what I hope people

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do. No matter what your affair partner does or doesn't do. Now, obviously, it's more complicated

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than that. That's why people need my help. And I'm giving you the quick and dirty answer, so to

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speak. But in practice, is it harder than that to work out? Sure it is. A lot of human difficulty

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built into these kinds of questions and challenges and decisions. That's fascinating. I would have

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never thought of it as counseling the couples who are the cheaters, for lack of a word, not the

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couples trying to get back together.

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Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people do that. Plenty of people do that. The affair couples need help too.

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And I know you're nonjudgmental. That's why people come to see you.

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How do you shelve that in terms of viewing a couple in terms of whether they're trying to

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figure out how to stay together, knowing that they could be destroying two other families

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based on their actions? That's got to weigh on you a bit.

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Destroying two other families is a really strong word, right? We tend to think in these terms. We

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tend to think that two other families are the ones that are going to be the ones that are going to

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cheating as bad. And if you leave a marriage or an established relationship to be with your

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affair partner, then you're destroying a family. But we've got to be really scrupulous about

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examining the extent to which that is true in any absolute sense. Is it possible to leave a

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relationship badly? Sure it is. But people do that all the time anyway, regardless of whether

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infidelity is a factor in that or not. Is it possible to leave a relationship as compassionately

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and respectfully and deliberately as possible? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't

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know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

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Yeah, it is. And that might be sad if a relationship ends, but it isn't necessarily an indication that

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anything's gone wrong in the cosmic scheme of things. And would the person, the couple on the

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other side who's being cheated on, would they have that same viewpoint? It depends. I mean,

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one of the problems with getting locked into this cheating is terrible thing is that it really puts

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people who have been cheated on in this position where it's easy to get into an I'm the victim way

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of looking at the whole situation. And that's not helpful. To be clear, if you've been cheated on

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and you don't like that, that is fair enough. That is legitimate. But things happen every single day

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that we don't like. And it's one thing to acknowledge, hey, this has happened and I don't

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like it. Now what am I going to do about it? And it's another thing to say like, this is terrible.

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I'm a victim. My life is ruined.

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Well, I think that's a great point. It goes back to your earlier statement about taking

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control of the things you can control. In a moment ago, I mentioned the word destroying.

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You just, I won't say mocked, but sort of layered onto that saying cheating is terrible.

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How do cultural attitudes towards infidelity influence individuals' decisions to cheat?

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And America was founded on Puritan principles. How does that influence infidelity in our country

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versus others? Yeah. So I'm going to pounce on the last part of the question, getting insulated.

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I just want to say, I think that it's, it's a very important issue. Like, cross-cultural

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comparisons is territory that we might want to save, uh, for another day.

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For the next show. That's fine.

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What I will say that I think that the whole, like, you know, Puritan notions that American

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society is founded on make it a lot harder for us to deal with infidelity collectively.

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And this goes back to what I was just saying about, you know, the idea that people who

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are cheated on are these victims, that's not helpful for anyone. And when cheaters or people

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who are actively cheating, things like, oh my God, I'm cheating. I'm going to get on with this.

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Oh my God, I'm this terrible person. I'm either bad or I'm good. And since I'm cheating, I'm bad. That tends to stop people in their tracks, which often means that they continue doing whatever it is they're doing that they feel bad about. Not helpful for anybody. Right? If we want a way out of the maze, we have to ease off of our very dualistic black and white, good or bad, right or wrong thinking.

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We've got to offer people a path out or a next step forward, right?

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Thanks for the plug. Appreciate that. Can we delve into understanding one-time cheaters versus serial cheaters? How are the two different psychologically, emotionally, behaviorally, ethically, and situationally, or are there any differences?

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Yeah. I mean, I do see differences in my practice. So some folks find themselves having an affair or engaging in some kind of infidelity.

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And they're like, okay, I understand why this has happened. I understand how I got here, but I don't like this at all. This is incredibly stressful and overwhelming. I don't like a lot of the things that go along with this. I'm never doing this again.

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On the other hand, there are kind of, I'm going to talk loosely about two categories of serial cheaters. Some people decide on purpose that they are going to cheat. Some people decide that they are going to cheat to stay married.

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Some people decide that they are going to remain in their committed relationship and engage in infidelity. And some people don't feel all that bad about it. Some people do feel really bad about it, but they continue to do it anyway. That's their choice, right?

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Now, on the other hand, some people who cheat habitually, excuse me, habitually, I'm trying to say habitually there. That's not a word, are doing it in a more compulsive way.

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Okay.

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To keep cheating habitually, but they find themselves doing it over and over and over again. And when that's going on, what I find is that there's often a deeper layer of discomfort in that person's life that they're kind of using cheating intentionally or unintentionally as a way of avoiding or as a way of buffering from or a way of kind of like self-medicating, shall we say.

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And I just want to stress that we're all doing this to one degree or another.

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Those of us who are addicted to checking the news every 10 seconds or looking at our smartphone just to see if we've gotten that next email are doing something that is categorically similar.

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So this isn't about like these big, bad, compulsive cheaters that have all of these crazy problems. What they're doing is on the continuum of what most humans are doing these days, which is finding ways of distracting ourselves from discomfort that we don't know what else to do with.

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So my wife has a.

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I'm saying you always get caught no matter what it is, stealing from your little league, infidelity. The people that you talk to, do they think they're going to get away with it forever?

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First of all, for the most part, I don't make blanket statements like you always get caught. Maybe your wife's right. I don't know. Right. But since I don't know that for sure, I don't know that you always get caught.

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Right.

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That's right.

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Right.

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Right.

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That said, a lot of folks are pretty concerned about getting caught. A lot of folks are like, I don't want to keep doing this. And I certainly don't want to keep doing this to the point at which I might get caught. That would be terrible for everyone. Now, do people get caught? Sure they do. And one of the few kind of normative prescriptions that I am willing to put out there is you don't want to get caught. You really don't want to get caught. You don't want to get caught. You don't want to get caught. You really don't want to get caught. You don't want to get caught. You really don't want to get caught.

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caught. It's not a nice thing for anyone involved in the equation. And what I try to help people do

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is make decisions about how they're going to handle their infidelity situation before it

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comes to that. But it does come to that. And there's nothing I can do to single-handedly

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stop that from happening. What behavioral patterns or personality traits are common

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among serial cheaters? There has to be some level of deceptiveness. And how much to impulsivity and

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thrill-seeking behavior contribute to serial cheating? Yeah. So, I mean, deception is usually

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baked into all, if not all, then most infidelity situations, whether it's a one-time thing

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or whether it's someone who's serially cheating. And the difference that I would suggest is that

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folks who cheat over and over again and do so fairly intentionally have a higher tolerance

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for engagement. And so, I think that's a good thing. And I think that's a good thing.

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Right. That's kind of a, I say this lightly, but it's kind of a prerequisite. It's kind of the

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price of admission. If you enjoy cheating on an ongoing basis or habitually, you have to be

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willing to deal with a discomfort that often, but not always, comes with engaging in deception.

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We've been talking to Dr. Marie Murphy, and we'll be right back after a short break. Stay with us.

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You are listening to Next Steps Forward.

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To reach Chris Meek or his guest on the show today, please call in to 1-888-346-9141.

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Or send an email to Chris at NextStepsForward.com.

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Now, back to this week's show.

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And we are back.

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I'm Chris Meek, host of Next Steps Forward.

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And my guest today is Dr. Marie Murphy.

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Dr. Murphy is a nonjudgmental coach for people involved in infidelity.

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She's trained and certified as a life coach with her training coming from the Life Coach School

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and Martha Beck's Wayfinder Life Coach Training.

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Her bachelor's degree is in Sociology and Human Sexuality Studies from San Francisco State University.

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And she has a Ph.D. in the Sociology of Sexuality from the University of California at San Diego.

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For years, she researched and taught about many things related to sex, sexuality, love, romantic relationships, and family life.

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She's also a certified holistic health practitioner and yoga teacher.

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And she's taught meditation for years.

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Marie, we've been talking about your profession and clients, and we'll get back to that.

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But let's take a minute for you to tell us about you beyond your career.

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I'm very interested to hear more about the two aspects of your life.

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The first is your decision to move.

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The second is your decision to serve as a Peace Corps volunteer in Zambia and your time there.

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And the second is about your self-described fanatic passion about certain condiments.

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Take it from here.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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So when I was in actually starting in high school, I volunteered as a sexual health and HIV prevention peer educator.

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And that fed into my undergraduate studies, sexuality and human sexuality studies.

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And it was incredibly important to me.

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To, A, see more of the world beyond the United States.

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And, B, to learn more about the scope of HIV prevention efforts worldwide.

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And the Peace Corps sent me to Zambia.

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And I spent three and a half years there.

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I traveled all over the country.

437
00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:07,240
I lived in a rural village in a mud hut without electricity or running water for a while.

438
00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:10,320
I lived in the capital, Lusaka, for a while.

439
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,480
And I also traveled to all of the outlying provinces in Zambia.

440
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:22,040
And they say the Peace Corps is the toughest job you'll ever love.

441
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:25,340
I don't know if it's the toughest.

442
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,600
I've had a lot of really tough jobs.

443
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,440
But it's certainly a job that I loved.

444
00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:34,560
And I don't know who I would be without having served in the Peace Corps in Zambia.

445
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:44,500
Also, on the subject of condiments, I don't know if I would have discovered some of the best hot sauces in the world were it not for my time there.

446
00:31:44,620 --> 00:31:44,820
I don't know if I would have discovered some of the best hot sauces in the world were it not for my time there.

447
00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:49,620
One of my favorite condiments is Nali hot sauce.

448
00:31:49,780 --> 00:31:50,680
It's made in Malawi.

449
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,280
And back when I was in Zambia, you could only get it in Malawi.

450
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,720
You had to go to Malawi to get some Nali.

451
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,620
But now it's available on the internet.

452
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,280
So you, too, can order yourself some Nali and enjoy it as much as I do.

453
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,300
I've never heard of that before.

454
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:07,620
I'm definitely going to order some after this.

455
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:08,360
I'm sure it's on Amazon.

456
00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:09,980
I would think.

457
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,560
I haven't checked lately, but I would think so and hope so.

458
00:32:13,620 --> 00:32:14,480
You're also a certified doctor.

459
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,300
You're also a certified holistic health practitioner and yoga teacher.

460
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,960
You've taught meditation for many years, as I mentioned before.

461
00:32:20,580 --> 00:32:24,660
Do those experiences help you with your own well-being, and do you recommend them to the people you care for?

462
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:25,640
Yes.

463
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:31,860
These experiences have helped me immensely with my own well-being and in ways that I won't get into.

464
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,900
They also have really impacted the work I do now.

465
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:41,660
There are so many ingredients in the soup that is my approach to nonjudgmental infidelity coaching.

466
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:43,900
And these ways of understanding.

467
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,800
And working with the human experience were definitely important ingredients in that soup.

468
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:55,020
But for me personally, I don't know where I would be without my yoga practice.

469
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,700
I don't know how I would still survive in my body if it weren't for my yoga practice.

470
00:33:01,420 --> 00:33:04,780
I don't know how I would get through a day without meditating.

471
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:10,240
That's not to say that these practices are what everybody has to start doing right now.

472
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,260
I'm not a pusher, but they sure have helped me.

473
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,020
And it's helped a lot of other people too.

474
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,380
We've had a big focus on the show in the mental health space and certainly in the post-COVID world.

475
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:22,140
Yeah.

476
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,860
And meditation has been a big part of people's responses to that.

477
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,560
There's obviously all different sorts and types of how-tos for meditation.

478
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:30,000
Yeah.

479
00:33:30,420 --> 00:33:32,140
What's your preference or what's your style?

480
00:33:32,140 --> 00:33:35,480
My style is a total mishmash.

481
00:33:36,180 --> 00:33:44,460
My most formal stint, I almost said bout, that's probably not the right word, of meditation training came from the Watt Ground.

482
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:51,640
I went to the Watt Rampung in Chiang Mai, Thailand, not to be confused with the Watt Rampoon in near Chiang Mai, Thailand.

483
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:53,120
I went to the wrong temple.

484
00:33:54,140 --> 00:33:55,180
Long story.

485
00:33:55,340 --> 00:33:55,820
Who would have thought?

486
00:33:56,180 --> 00:33:56,420
Yeah.

487
00:33:57,780 --> 00:33:59,440
Pronunciation matters, people.

488
00:34:00,180 --> 00:34:01,080
Got to get it right.

489
00:34:01,860 --> 00:34:09,920
So my most formal training is in Vipassana meditation, but really I mix and match from all sorts of different styles.

490
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,120
And what matters the most to me is that I sit down at my altar every day.

491
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:14,960
And I do it.

492
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,120
Why is the role of non-judgmental coach so unique?

493
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,580
Is it because the stigma of infidelity is so strong?

494
00:34:23,060 --> 00:34:24,120
Yeah, absolutely.

495
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:42,560
I mean, I hate to say this and I say this as lovingly as possible, but even professionals who have been trained to offer support to people doing all sorts of things tend to have a lot of biases towards folks who are actively cheating, towards the folks who are engaging in infidelity.

496
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:43,940
And I think that this is the...

497
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:51,640
It's because antipathy towards people who cheat is so pervasive in our society.

498
00:34:51,860 --> 00:34:53,060
It's baked into everything.

499
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,100
It's just circulating in the air we breathe.

500
00:34:55,220 --> 00:34:59,900
We take it for granted that cheating is this really, really bad thing.

501
00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:02,760
And that's kind of the only way we're able to see it.

502
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,340
So it's so important to be able to get away from that.

503
00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:13,340
If we want to productively deal with infidelity in different ways, if we want people who are cheating to have access to...

504
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:21,980
Compassionate, respectful assistance that's actually helpful to them, that meets them where they are and respects where they're coming from.

505
00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:36,720
And as we've talked about already, for folks who are being cheated on, getting boxed into like the cheater is bad and I'm the victim that something bad happened to isn't necessarily all that helpful.

506
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:43,020
It might sound neat and tidy, but it's not necessarily the way forward.

507
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,400
We were talking before the break about one-time cheaters and serial cheaters.

508
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:55,760
In the spirit of not being judgmental, but being realistic, it seems to me that many cheaters will use the excuse, it just happened.

509
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,200
How do you get cheaters to take responsibility for their actions?

510
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,300
And is it necessary for them to take the responsibility in order for everyone to be able to move forward?

511
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,160
Yeah, well, I mean, I'm a big fan of everybody taking responsibility, right?

512
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,480
I think that's really important in general.

513
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,480
In terms of getting...

514
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:21,420
Getting cheaters to take responsibility, I don't really consider it my job to try and get anyone to do anything.

515
00:36:21,660 --> 00:36:24,800
The people who come to me want help, right?

516
00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:29,340
They want something to change and they don't know how to get to that change that they desire.

517
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,280
Or sometimes they don't know how to define or claim what they want to change, right?

518
00:36:34,820 --> 00:36:40,600
So, for people who come to me, it's not a question of me trying to get them to do anything.

519
00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:43,960
It's me giving them the tools and practices.

520
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:50,180
It's me giving them the resources that they need to get what they want or to do what they want or to be able to accomplish what they want to accomplish.

521
00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:53,680
You touched on this briefly in the first half of the show.

522
00:36:54,020 --> 00:37:02,380
Looking at the other side of that coin, for the one-time cheater, is there a certain element of being surprised to find themselves in an emotional or physical relationship they didn't expect?

523
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:03,500
Absolutely.

524
00:37:04,020 --> 00:37:04,420
Absolutely.

525
00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:06,900
And this ties into the, like, it just happened thing.

526
00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:12,760
Like, you know, sometimes it really does seem like cheating just happens.

527
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:13,400
Like, oh, my God.

528
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:13,900
I wasn't planning.

529
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:14,560
I wasn't planning on this.

530
00:37:14,580 --> 00:37:16,780
And this just kind of happened, right?

531
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:20,140
Like, sometimes there's alcohol involved, right?

532
00:37:20,180 --> 00:37:21,660
Sometimes there are other substances involved.

533
00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:22,660
And sometimes not.

534
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,600
Sometimes it's just a matter of, like, oh, this person is a really good friend.

535
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:26,840
Wait.

536
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,320
All of a sudden we started kissing.

537
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:29,340
Oh, whoa.

538
00:37:29,420 --> 00:37:30,120
What happened?

539
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,140
And, you know, sometimes when this happens, it's really just that.

540
00:37:34,140 --> 00:37:37,320
It's like, oops, I slipped into something that I didn't mean to slip into.

541
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,180
I don't want to do that again.

542
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:39,960
The end.

543
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:40,820
Right?

544
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,780
And then the question becomes, do I tell my partner I cheated on them or not?

545
00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:46,580
And I help people answer that question for themselves all the time.

546
00:37:47,180 --> 00:37:54,400
But what can be more challenging for people to deal with is when it just happens, so to speak.

547
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:56,500
Like, the infidelity just begins.

548
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,180
But then they're in it.

549
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,260
And they're like, wait a second.

550
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:00,960
This is really great in some ways.

551
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,440
I may feel awful about what I'm doing in some respects.

552
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:13,380
But this is also speaking to things within me that I know I need to take seriously, even if I'm doing something that goes against commitments I've made.

553
00:38:13,780 --> 00:38:20,680
And that's when the conflict gets really sticky.

554
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:22,580
And that's when they call you.

555
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:23,900
That's when they call me.

556
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:24,660
Yeah.

557
00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:28,120
Without being judgmental, I'm using that word a lot.

558
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:28,620
I apologize.

559
00:38:29,300 --> 00:38:29,580
It's okay.

560
00:38:29,580 --> 00:38:33,580
Is it fair to assume the serial cheater is more calculating and intentional in their actions?

561
00:38:35,220 --> 00:38:35,660
Sometimes.

562
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:37,700
I mean, sometimes, yes.

563
00:38:37,860 --> 00:38:41,300
But to be frank, and this is, again, this isn't a judgment of anyone.

564
00:38:41,660 --> 00:38:43,660
If you're carrying on an affair.

565
00:38:43,780 --> 00:38:47,260
Even if you only have one affair in your entire life.

566
00:38:47,260 --> 00:38:56,360
If you're carrying on an affair for any length of time, you're probably going to have to be calculating and devious to pull that off, too.

567
00:38:57,180 --> 00:39:09,360
Having the tolerance to do that multiple times usually looks different in practice than having the tolerance to do that once, like within the duration of one relationship, one affair relationship.

568
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,120
But it's really a matter of.

569
00:39:13,780 --> 00:39:18,780
Frequency more than quality or quantity more than quality, I would say.

570
00:39:19,940 --> 00:39:22,160
Do you start by getting a burner phone or how does it happen?

571
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,460
Well, some people do.

572
00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:24,560
Not everyone does.

573
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:32,280
And by the way, boys and girls, if you don't want to get caught cheating, good digital hygiene is really important.

574
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:38,060
Like all of the obvious stuff that you think you should be doing, you should definitely be doing it if you don't want to get caught.

575
00:39:39,380 --> 00:39:42,200
So my listeners and viewers know I'm a big country fan.

576
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:43,760
And there's one song about.

577
00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:46,760
Uh, being cheated on, you know, go surprise, right?

578
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,040
So it's two, two women singing at one was cheated on.

579
00:39:51,140 --> 00:39:52,640
The other one was the cheater.

580
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:53,440
Okay.

581
00:39:53,580 --> 00:40:00,780
But it talks about how, uh, her husband comes home and like he immediately jumps in the shower and she spends half an hour, like going through his phone and checking emails and texts.

582
00:40:00,780 --> 00:40:03,240
And so, yes, good digital hygiene is, is great.

583
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,860
Uh, great suggestion there.

584
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:05,440
Yeah.

585
00:40:06,180 --> 00:40:06,540
Yeah.

586
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,780
Are more of your clients first time or one time cheaters, or do you tend to counsel more seal cheaters?

587
00:40:11,780 --> 00:40:13,560
I do.

588
00:40:13,780 --> 00:40:20,460
I do have more first time cheaters or if not first time, then like first significant time, right?

589
00:40:20,820 --> 00:40:22,220
Like, here's what I mean by that.

590
00:40:22,220 --> 00:40:29,880
Like we've been sort of talking about like serial cheaters and one time cheaters as if there is a clear line between those two groups.

591
00:40:30,260 --> 00:40:41,880
But, you know, sometimes people like had like a minor dalliance with someone in the past and they, that counted as cheating, but they didn't think too much of it and they didn't do it again and again and again and again.

592
00:40:42,060 --> 00:40:43,760
So technically they may become.

593
00:40:43,780 --> 00:40:44,060
So technically they may become.

594
00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:48,080
So technically they may become like the second time they have cheated within a particular relationship.

595
00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:52,960
So it's not that they're a first time cheater, but they're also not exactly a serial cheater either.

596
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:53,640
Right.

597
00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:00,160
People tend to come to me when they're, they're like this, there's something serious going on here that I really want to address.

598
00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:03,180
We need different grade levels of your, your cheatingness apparently.

599
00:41:04,260 --> 00:41:05,140
Maybe so.

600
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,240
Does your counseling approach differ when working with one time cheaters versus serial cheaters?

601
00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:11,700
It sometimes does.

602
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:13,700
And again, this goes back to.

603
00:41:13,780 --> 00:41:32,480
The possibility, not the certainty, but the possibility that serial cheaters are kind of compulsively cheating to get away from a larger discomfort in their lives or the discomfort that lots of us experience simply as a result of being human.

604
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:40,480
And by dealing with difficult human things that they don't know how to address right now, we, we all experience discomfort.

605
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,660
So it's not that folks who cheat once.

606
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:46,840
Or cheat very infrequently, don't experience any of that.

607
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:48,160
They certainly do.

608
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:56,620
But with habitual cheating, often a component of what's going on is that there's this big wound that needs to be healed.

609
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:02,980
And that isn't as often the case with the one time or the less frequent cheating.

610
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:10,960
There's an old saying, and perhaps a bitter one, and it's one of those blanket statements that you don't like once a cheater, always a cheater.

611
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:11,820
Yeah.

612
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,480
How successful are people who get counseling?

613
00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:15,780
And those who don't at repairing their relationships?

614
00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:17,780
Well, let me, let me speak to that in a moment.

615
00:42:17,780 --> 00:42:23,780
And let me just say, first, I don't see that the, once a cheater, always a cheater thing is true.

616
00:42:23,780 --> 00:42:25,780
Some people do cheat habitually.

617
00:42:25,780 --> 00:42:27,780
There I go again.

618
00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:29,780
Habitually for the dictionary.

619
00:42:29,780 --> 00:42:31,780
Now habitually and continuously.

620
00:42:31,780 --> 00:42:33,780
Some people do that.

621
00:42:33,780 --> 00:42:35,780
That is a thing that is true.

622
00:42:35,780 --> 00:42:37,780
And a lot of people don't do that.

623
00:42:37,780 --> 00:42:39,780
A lot of people cheat once.

624
00:42:39,780 --> 00:42:41,780
And they say, I never want to do this again.

625
00:42:41,780 --> 00:42:42,780
Right?

626
00:42:42,780 --> 00:42:43,600
A lot of people do that.

627
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,600
A lot of people say, like, I don't want to engage in infidelity.

628
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:47,600
This has happened.

629
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,600
I may not have planned it.

630
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:50,600
It may be happening.

631
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,600
But I want to deal with it and then not do this anymore.

632
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,600
So if you don't want to be always a cheater, you don't have to always be a cheater.

633
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:08,600
And if you're on the receiving side of somebody else's infidelity situation, you do not have to assume that because someone has cheated on you once, they will necessarily cheat on you again.

634
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:09,600
Could it happen?

635
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:10,600
Yes.

636
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:11,600
Does it happen?

637
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:12,600
Yes.

638
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,600
Does it necessarily happen?

639
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:15,600
Absolutely not.

640
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:16,600
Yeah.

641
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:17,600
And then the other part of your question.

642
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:18,600
Sorry.

643
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:19,600
Remind me what that was.

644
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,600
After the once a cheater, always a cheater.

645
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,600
About repairing the relationships.

646
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:24,600
Oh, right.

647
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:25,600
Yeah.

648
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:36,600
So what I find is that when folks want to repair relationships, there's a good chance they'll be successful.

649
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,600
But the problem is that there's this narrative out there that if you've cheated, what you're supposed to do is confess.

650
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:47,600
And then do everything you can to repair the relationship and that that should make everything okay.

651
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,600
And that isn't necessarily what's going to work for everybody.

652
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,600
For some people, going back to the primary relationship isn't what they want.

653
00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:00,600
And it doesn't work very well when we try to do things that we really don't want to do.

654
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,600
You just read my next question about having to confess that to the spouse.

655
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:05,600
I'll just throw that one away.

656
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,600
But maybe as a follow up to that, is it possible for someone who has had an affair to be fully happy in their marriage life?

657
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,600
Yes, it is possible.

658
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,600
And it certainly happens.

659
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:16,600
It absolutely happens.

660
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,600
Does it always happen?

661
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:19,600
No.

662
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:31,600
And part of what I consider most important about my work with clients is helping people get rigorously and ruthlessly honest with themselves about what they want and what they don't want.

663
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:39,600
We do not do our partners any favor if we cheat on them and then we try to go back and repair the relationship and we don't really want to.

664
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:40,600
Right.

665
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,600
That's not helpful for anybody.

666
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:56,600
But to echo what I said a moment ago, since there's so much societal pressure to do exactly that, a lot of people feel like that's really their only viable option.

667
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,600
And this just leads to a lot of suffering all around.

668
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:09,600
That said, when folks are like, yeah, I want to reinvest in my marriage or I want to reinvest in my primary relationship, they can and they do.

669
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:16,600
And sometimes everybody works out or ends up happier a year later than they ever could have imagined they would ever be.

670
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,600
That's definitely an outcome that's possible.

671
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,600
As a follow-up to that, what about relationships that start as affairs?

672
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:23,600
Yeah.

673
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,600
Can they ever be successful or relationships that start as affairs doomed to fail?

674
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,600
No, they're not doomed to fail.

675
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:38,600
A lot of affair relationships flourish and turn into happy, ongoing, mutually satisfying non-affair relationships.

676
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:58,600
I think it's because of the stigma associated with infidelity and our very uniformly negatives about infidelity that we assume that if a relationship starts as an affair, it's tainted by defaults and it will never survive as a non-affair relationship because it's just inherently bad.

677
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,600
And that's simply not the case.

678
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,600
Now, that doesn't mean that all relationships that start as affairs work out.

679
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,600
But that's true of all relationships.

680
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,600
Even relationships that don't start as affairs don't always work out, right?

681
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,600
We have to keep things in the appropriate perspective.

682
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:24,600
We tend to think about the differences between affair relationships and non-affair relationships or relationships that start as affairs and relationships that don't start as affairs.

683
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,600
And they are different in some ways, but they're also similar in a lot of ways.

684
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,600
And we tend to lose focus or lose sight of that.

685
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,600
I've seen articles in the past about ways to supposedly, air quote,

686
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,600
affair-proof a relationship.

687
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,600
Is it possible to affair-proof a marriage or significant relationship?

688
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,600
And if so, how does somebody accomplish that?

689
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:44,600
Yeah.

690
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:45,600
Well, here's the thing.

691
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:53,600
A lot of people, a lot of so-called relationship experts will tell you that it is possible to affair-proof a relationship.

692
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:55,600
And I have to respectfully disagree with that.

693
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:56,600
And here's why.

694
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,600
You can never fully control what another person does.

695
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:05,600
But you can do all the things that people tell you to do to, quote unquote, affair-proof a relationship.

696
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,600
And you still do not have total control over what your partner does.

697
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,600
And that's just the end of the story.

698
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:28,600
Now, are there things you can do to continuously nurture a relationship so that hopefully both parties are reasonably satisfied in it and so that cheating is less likely to occur?

699
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:29,600
Sure.

700
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,600
But I think the point of doing that is not to prevent an affair.

701
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:34,600
It's to enjoy your relationship.

702
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,600
And I think that sometimes people lose sight of that.

703
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:48,600
It's like we're so concerned about preventing affairs that we forget about nurturing and sustaining an enjoyable connection with someone we care about.

704
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:49,600
Right?

705
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:54,600
It's a slightly different way of saying the same thing, but I think it's an important difference.

706
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:55,600
No, I totally agree.

707
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,600
I appreciate that viewpoint.

708
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:03,600
As we've said, your role as a nonjudgmental coach for people involved in infidelity is extremely unique.

709
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,600
How do you see the field of infidelity counseling evolving in the next 5, 10, or 20 years?

710
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,600
And will there be more professionals like you?

711
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,600
Well, I sure hope there are.

712
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:18,600
I mean, I truly believe this about not just infidelity-related stuff, but everything.

713
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:31,600
If we want to heal any situation, if we want to improve any situation, if we want to make any situation different, we have to look at all parts of that situation and offer compassion and respect.

714
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:36,600
So whatever the humans are doing, right?

715
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,600
Like, I wish more people would recycle and compost.

716
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,600
Does getting mad about that help anything?

717
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:43,600
Not really.

718
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:44,600
Right?

719
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,600
Like, I wish we polluted less.

720
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,600
Does me getting, like, all hot and bothered about that, like, help?

721
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:50,600
Not really.

722
00:48:50,600 --> 00:49:00,600
So if we want things around infidelity to shift, if we want it to be a less difficult thing, and if we even want infidelity to occur less frequently, or perhaps less frequently, then we have to look at all aspects of it.

723
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:01,600
Right?

724
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:12,600
And perhaps to deal with it in a more helpful way when it does occur, we have to start recognizing that even if we don't like this, this is a very common human thing.

725
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:17,600
We don't have to look at this as the most terrible thing in the world.

726
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:24,600
And we can have just as much compassion and respect for people who are doing the cheating as for people who are being cheated on.

727
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:30,600
And that just helps de-escalate the whole thing and make it less of a dire problem.

728
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:42,600
And when we take something as a puzzle that can be solved rather than a big, bad, awful problem that has to be fixed, we gain more options for our next steps forward, whatever those may be.

729
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:43,600
Right?

730
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,600
We've got about four or five minutes left.

731
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:46,600
Yeah.

732
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:47,600
You have your own podcast.

733
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:49,600
I mean, you've recorded many episodes.

734
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:50,600
We're talking during the break.

735
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:51,600
It's almost 200.

736
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:52,600
So I know the work involves.

737
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:53,600
So congrats.

738
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:54,600
Thank you.

739
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:55,600
And it's on many aspects of infidelity.

740
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:56,600
Yes.

741
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,600
How can people connect with your podcast?

742
00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,600
And how can they learn even more about you and your podcast?

743
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,600
How can they learn even more about you and your practice?

744
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,600
And how can they connect with you directly?

745
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:04,600
Absolutely.

746
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,600
So my podcast is called Your Secret is Safe with Me.

747
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:11,600
And I talk about infidelity from a non-judgmental perspective.

748
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:19,600
But frankly, a lot of my episodes have bearing on all romantic relationships, not just relationships that have some sort of an infidelity component.

749
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:26,600
And you can find Your Secret is Safe with Me wherever you access podcasts or on my website, mariemurphyphd.com.

750
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,600
And the best way to connect with me is to go to my website.

751
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,600
mariemurphyphd.com.

752
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:38,600
You can use my contact form or the email address that is on the website to shoot me a message.

753
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:47,600
You can also book an introductory coaching session with me through my website, which is the way that you can start working with me one on one if you're interested in doing so.

754
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:55,600
I offer compassionate, confidential coaching via Zoom, which means we can work together no matter where you're located.

755
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,600
And last but not least, I also offer a free course.

756
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:03,580
I also offer a self-guided course, which is called You're Not the Only One, which is the title of our

757
00:51:03,580 --> 00:51:09,260
episode today, I think. And this course contains my most powerful teachings and assignments that

758
00:51:09,260 --> 00:51:15,580
go beyond what I offer on my podcast. And once you purchase this DIY course, you have access to it in

759
00:51:15,580 --> 00:51:23,000
an online portal that you get to have forever. You get to keep it for all time. Awesome. Next step

760
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:27,140
forward is all about personal empowerment and well-being, overcoming resilience in the face

761
00:51:27,140 --> 00:51:31,600
of adversity. Certainly, there are many different dynamics in play when someone engages in an affair

762
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,320
or their partner is involved in an affair. Some people need help with personal empowerment,

763
00:51:35,700 --> 00:51:39,440
some with resilience, and all of them need help with their well-being. Would you take us into

764
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,460
our conversation with advice or a story that helps our audience feel more resilient, empowered,

765
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:51,860
and at peace? Yeah. So the first thing I want to say is that I think one of the things about

766
00:51:51,860 --> 00:51:56,960
infidelity that has bearing on things that aren't related to infidelity is that when we

767
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:57,120
think about infidelity, we think about things that aren't related to infidelity.

768
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:57,140
We think about things that aren't related to infidelity. We think about things that aren't related to infidelity.

769
00:51:57,140 --> 00:52:01,560
We think we have an unsolvable problem on our hands. And when we think there isn't any support

770
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:06,960
out there for the kind of problem that we have, we tend to get really stuck. And what I want

771
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:11,320
everybody to know is that if you think you have a problem on your hands that's unsolvable,

772
00:52:11,820 --> 00:52:17,200
it probably isn't. If you think that there isn't any help for the kind of problem that you're

773
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:22,740
dealing with right now, you're probably wrong. Help is probably out there, and it may just be

774
00:52:22,740 --> 00:52:27,120
a matter of that next Google search to find it. So if you're dealing with a problem that you're

775
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:34,400
with a significant life challenge, keep going. Keep taking that next step forward, whatever it

776
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:41,300
is. Help is out there if you need it. Keep looking. The other thing I want to say is that

777
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:48,440
creating this job for myself, creating this role of nonjudgmental infidelity coach is one of the

778
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:53,520
hardest things I've ever done. People were like, you can't help people who cheat. Nobody's going

779
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:57,100
to want to work with you. Nobody's going to want to talk to you. What you're doing is bad,

780
00:52:57,100 --> 00:53:02,180
and you're aiding and abetting cheaters. This is terrible. You should just crawl into a hole and

781
00:53:02,180 --> 00:53:11,660
die, basically. Sometimes you have to really be willing to write your own script. Sometimes you

782
00:53:11,660 --> 00:53:20,760
have to do things that nobody sees the vision of just yet. And it's hard, but that doesn't mean

783
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:26,540
you can't do it. And so to everybody who's thinking that they can't be what they want,

784
00:53:26,540 --> 00:53:27,080
or they can't do it, it's hard. And so to everybody who's thinking that they can't be

785
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:32,780
what they want, or they can't do what they want to do, I encourage you to think again. And I mean,

786
00:53:32,820 --> 00:53:37,600
I keep saying this because it's the name of your show, but I really do mean it. Take that next

787
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:43,420
step forward. You may not be able to do it all at once, but if you keep on taking one step forward

788
00:53:43,420 --> 00:53:50,320
at a time, you will amaze yourself by what's possible. Dr. Marie Murphy, we could talk about

789
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,660
this for hours. Thank you for being with us today. My pleasure. Will you come back again?

790
00:53:54,660 --> 00:53:57,020
Of course. Anytime. Awesome.

791
00:53:57,660 --> 00:54:01,340
I'm Chris Meek. Run a time. We'll see you next week. Same time, same place.

792
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,940
Until then, stay safe and keep taking your next steps forward.

793
00:54:09,660 --> 00:54:15,560
Thanks for tuning in to Next Steps Forward. Be sure to join Chris Meek for another great show

794
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:21,100
next Tuesday at 10 a.m. Pacific time and 1 p.m. Eastern time on the Voice America

795
00:54:21,100 --> 00:54:25,900
Empowerment Channel. This week, make things happen in your life.

796
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:55,660
I'm Chris Meek. You can find me on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. I'll see you next week.

797
00:54:55,660 --> 00:54:55,780
Bye.