Puppy Justice Wins! -- Beagle Rescuers NOT GUILTY

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of England, the Animal Rising Trial.

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And we are live with Wayne Chung, who's

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considered the founder of the Open Rescue Movement,

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talking about this not guilty verdict that has

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just come in.

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There you see the four defendants.

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This is a huge animal rights victory, and

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it concerns basically a series of trials which

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formed the first open rescue trials in the

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United Kingdom.

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This is all happening near Cambridge University.

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You can see they're probably 50 minutes or

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less from London, England.

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The first group of defendants, there's so many,

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18, that they did several trials.

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The first trial resulted in guilty verdicts, but

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now we're learning that the newest trial, the

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latest trial has resulted in not guilty verdicts.

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Wayne Chung, you were in court.

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Tell us the entire thing.

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I mean, this is huge, huge news for

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the animal rights movement.

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Yeah, Jane, it was a complete rollercoaster because

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frankly, the prosecutor's pretty effective, and he made

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arguments about how the entire society was gonna

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break down, social order would break down, that

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there would be anarchy on the streets if

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the jury quit it.

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He did everything he could to paint these

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people as extremists, and frankly, I think the

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judge was on his side.

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There was a point where the judge indicated

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to the jury that everything MBR did was

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legal, which I thought was biased and just

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frankly incorrect, legally and factually.

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MBR does lots of illegal things.

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MBR is the vivisection facility at issue in

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this case, but the lawyers did just an

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extraordinary job of breaking down the legal arguments

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and arguing effectively that the defendants all acted

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honestly, which is one of the elements of

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a theft charge or a burglary charge in

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the United Kingdom, and then the self-representative

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defendant just knocked out of the park.

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There were tears in everyone's eyes when he

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gave his statement, and I think the key

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moment for him was when he directly challenged

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the prosecution's argument that the dogs were similar

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to a can of beans.

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That's literally what the prosecutor said, just like

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you can't steal a can of beans, you

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cannot steal a dog from a vivisection facility,

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and Tom stated very directly, I just do

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not agree with that, and I don't think

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you do either, because dogs are not cans

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of beans.

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They're living beings who deserve love, and so

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many of us said just tears in our

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eyes at the end of his statement, and

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honestly, I felt like even though the prosecutor

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was pretty effective, even though the judge was

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biased against us, when I looked at the

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jury's faces, I thought we were gonna win,

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and that's exactly what happened.

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Well, you're looking at video of some of

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the beagles who were rescued.

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There they are.

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You see the feces.

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You see the, just, well, the innocence of

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these animals.

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Approximately 20 beagles were rescued from this breeding

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facility.

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Two were, you might say, recaptured by authorities,

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and 18 rescuers went on trial.

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This is the first open rescue group of

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trials in the United Kingdom, and what's very

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interesting is that the first trial resulted in

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guilty verdicts, and people were devastated.

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The second trial, which just ended, resulted in

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not guilty verdicts, so what was the difference

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between the two cases where one is guilty

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and the other, the jury facing, well, the

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same situation, they're dealing with the same rescue,

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finds not guilty?

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Yeah, I think there were two big things,

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and for the record, I was not there

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at all in the first trial, and the

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second trial, I was only there for one

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day, closing argument, but I have been very

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much in touch with the support team, some

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of the lawyers.

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We did a big debrief after the first

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animal rising trial, and I think the first

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big factor, frankly, was the judge just came

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to his senses a little bit.

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In the first trial, the judge literally shouted

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down some of the defendants, and shouted down

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and cut off one of the attorneys during

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closing argument, because they were trying to appeal

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to people's emotions.

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They were trying to, I think the line

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that actually led to the judge shutting down

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and closing argument was one of the attorneys

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said, imagine you had lived for 18 weeks

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of your life in conditions like this, and

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frankly, the defense should have been entitled to

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make that argument, but instead, the judge told

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the jury to leave the room, screamed at

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the attorney, threatened him, and said, you're not

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allowed to appeal to emotion at all, and

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which is just not true as a legal

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matter, and more importantly, one of the elements

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of the case is dishonesty, and for any

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of the defense lawyers, or the defendants themselves

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to make the case that they were acting

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honestly on the day of this rescue, they

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had to describe the reason for being there.

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They had to describe their concern about the

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abuses that were being inflicted on the MBR

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dogs, and so my perspective is the judge

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got this wrong, and frankly, the judge may

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have realized that himself, because in this case,

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he gave the defendants a little bit of

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a longer leash in terms of what they're

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allowed to say about the conditions at MBR,

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the experimentation that happened to these beagles, and

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some of the stuff that happens is just

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evil.

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You know, basically bleeding out these beagles to

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every last drop of blood, slowly taking all

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the blood away for experiments, so using this

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blood for various things, and then harvesting all

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their organs, bio-harvesting all their organs for

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various experiments, so just bleeding these dogs out,

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then selling the dog's organs to all sorts

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of experimentation facilities.

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So that's one big factor.

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The judge kind of came to his senses

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and realized, look, I have to give these

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people the right to defend themselves, which includes

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talking about the reasons for being there, but

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the other big factor is I think that

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there was a lot more personal storytelling, that

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in the first case, it was too logical,

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too rational, and you and I know in

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the persuasion business, in the media business, in

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any sort of communications business, it's all about

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emotions and stories, and frankly, I think one

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of the reasons they relied on just reasons

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and abstract arguments in the first trial is

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because the judge was so hardcore about not

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allowing any emotion in the case, but in

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this case, it was extremely interesting.

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The prosecutor said at one point, there's no

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room for sympathy in the courtroom.

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He literally said those words, and I was

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kind of shocked because it's the sort of

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thing that you think of a villain from

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some movie, like an action movie villain would

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say, there's no room for sympathy in this

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courtroom.

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There's no room for, because sympathy is a

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good emotion.

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It's a good thing for our legal system

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to have, to imagine what it's like to

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be in someone else's shoes, but the defendants

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themselves did an extraordinary job of generating sympathy,

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not like directly appealing to sympathy, but just

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describing why they were there, describing how they

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felt, describing their backgrounds in a way that

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I think really moved the jury to very

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quickly render a verdict of not guilty.

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And I want to say, this is like

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a record verdict.

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I mean, I've been a lawyer for almost

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20 years now.

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Actually, it's over 20 years now.

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I've never seen a verdict come out this

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fast, and it came out this fast because

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the defendants did a good job of storytelling.

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You mentioned something that I thought was really

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interesting, that the prosecutor compared these dogs to

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a can of beans, and you, despite being

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a constitutional law professor and the founder or

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the inspiration of the open rescue movement in

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the United States, we are getting some comments,

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and people say, well, somebody was doing it

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in Australia.

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Absolutely, it's a joint team effort, but certainly

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you've been arrested and served time for involving

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open rescues in the United States.

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And one of the acquittals that you won

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involved a prosecutor using the same argument when

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it came to the rescue of little pigs

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from the Smithfield factory farm.

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Let's hear that prosecutor make that same comparing

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animals to inanimate objects argument in court.

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Analyze for just a moment the reasoning being

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demonstrated here tonight.

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I think it's clear that the pigs were

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stolen, they were taken, and they were not

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returned.

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In fact, Mr. Shum stated he didn't want

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to return them.

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That's that.

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Imagine the use of the word rescue in

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some other context.

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Suppose you were in the grocery store, and

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you saw a can with dents in it,

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and you thought to yourself, oh my goodness,

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that can has a dent, it has the

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potential of going bad.

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I better rescue that can, put it in

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my purse, take it out of the store.

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Or imagine your DQ, you see a dripping

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ice cream cone up there, the clerk just

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put it on the counter, oh dear, that

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cone is dripping off the side.

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I better take it so that it doesn't

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make a mess on the floor.

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So that was the argument that was used

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by the prosecutor against you.

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You won that case, and the British prosecutors

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used the can metaphor analogy again, and they

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lost.

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So what's your takeaway there?

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The first thing is my jaw just dropped.

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I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

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It was like deja vu all over again,

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because I thought it was such a terrible

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comparison to make in our trial.

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We actually talked to all the jurors in

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that case, which no one thought were gonna

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win.

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My attorney in Utah thought this case is

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hopeless.

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This is like 90% Trump County.

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One third of the people in the entire

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county work for Smithfield Foods, the company that

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we had quote unquote stolen the pigs from.

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And I think one of the reasons we

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won is because the absurdity of the industry's

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position becomes apparent once you actually are forced

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to deliberate about it.

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And the reality is for them to actually

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effectively accuse any animal rights activists who rescue

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animals of theft, they have to compare these

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animals to property, including a dented can.

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And that's what the prosecutor did today.

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He said, well, look, you might not agree

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with this industry.

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And I'll know this industry does treat animals

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like commodities, kind of like a can of

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beans.

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And I think he was trying to basically

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preview the personification we're gonna try and do

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and say, look, no, don't buy this idea

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that this is the same relationship that you

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have with your dog or cat at home.

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This is more like the way a company

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would see a can of beans.

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But the jury just revolted against it.

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And I actually was taking notes during the

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closing argument.

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I noted a number of the juries kind

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of like looked away and it wasn't as

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obvious as in my case.

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In my case, I think when Von Christensen,

269
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,440
the prosecutor you just saw made that argument,

270
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,340
I could just see the jury's eyes roll.

271
00:10:09,420 --> 00:10:10,300
And I was like, all right, I mean,

272
00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:12,080
I don't think we should be able to

273
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,400
win this case, but I think they just

274
00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:14,620
kind of had an own goal.

275
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:15,940
They just shot themselves in the foot.

276
00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,460
But in this case, it wasn't quite as

277
00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:19,640
obvious, but a number of the jurors were

278
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,800
like rolling their eyes, looking away, just clearly

279
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:23,620
not that engaged with the prosecutor's argument and

280
00:10:23,620 --> 00:10:24,400
went down that direction.

281
00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,420
And this has much bigger implications than two

282
00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:31,420
acquittals, because the idea behind this comparison is

283
00:10:31,420 --> 00:10:33,160
that animals are property.

284
00:10:33,820 --> 00:10:35,800
In contrast, what the animal rights movement believes

285
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,480
is animals are persons.

286
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:39,960
And this shows time and time again, that

287
00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,340
when jurors are actually forced to deliberate, they

288
00:10:42,340 --> 00:10:44,200
sided those who see the animals as persons

289
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:44,840
and not property.

290
00:10:45,580 --> 00:10:48,540
So there's a couple more trials coming up.

291
00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:50,500
And I don't know if we're allowed to

292
00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:52,400
mention that you have a personal relationship with

293
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:53,640
one of the defendants.

294
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,420
You're married to one of the defendants.

295
00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,440
Is that okay to mention?

296
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,320
Yeah, the best part, yeah, no, for sure.

297
00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:06,660
Yeah, and they have talked about how, well,

298
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,800
what's at stake with this trial?

299
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,300
Again, this is the first set of open

300
00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:18,280
rescue trials in the United Kingdom.

301
00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:21,420
So I'm gonna queue up when they're talking

302
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,140
and let them talk for a little bit,

303
00:11:24,220 --> 00:11:25,740
because I think that there was a lot

304
00:11:25,740 --> 00:11:28,820
of optimism and shock after the first verdict.

305
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,580
First optimism, yes, this is a no brainer.

306
00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:34,120
We had the best of intentions.

307
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,040
We weren't going to steal property.

308
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:38,560
We were going to rescue animals.

309
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:40,440
And then there was shock when that didn't

310
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:40,820
happen.

311
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,320
But now there's a resurgence of optimism, I

312
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:44,680
would hope.

313
00:11:44,780 --> 00:11:47,620
So let's listen to Ben Newman, the co

314
00:11:47,620 --> 00:11:50,300
-founder of Animal Rising and Rose Patterson.

315
00:11:50,940 --> 00:11:54,060
Both of them, Ben was, they're both part

316
00:11:54,060 --> 00:11:54,480
of this case.

317
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,660
This is the first open rescue trial ever

318
00:11:56,660 --> 00:11:57,160
in the UK.

319
00:11:57,460 --> 00:11:59,420
So it's a historic event.

320
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,140
And yeah, just a huge moment for the

321
00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:02,920
animal movement to draw more attention to animal

322
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,000
testing and hopefully see the closure of NBR

323
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,480
Acres very soon as the first step in

324
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:09,580
ending all animal testing.

325
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,200
And we're calling for the facility to be

326
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,560
closed, long story short, and put animal testing,

327
00:12:16,540 --> 00:12:18,480
originally the concept of animal testing on trial,

328
00:12:18,620 --> 00:12:20,480
because we actually, I did it once in

329
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,560
June, 2022, with three of us who did

330
00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:24,120
it accountably.

331
00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:27,240
And then the Crown Prosecution dropped the charges.

332
00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:28,780
They said, huge lack of evidence.

333
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:30,800
So then we went back again in December,

334
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:31,400
2022.

335
00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:33,340
And so what we're hoping is that we'll

336
00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:35,840
be found, obviously it's not guaranteed, but hoping

337
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,740
we'll be found not guilty by a jury.

338
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,920
And then, yeah, and that will significantly, hopefully

339
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:43,980
undermine the animal testing industry in the UK.

340
00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:46,600
So there's 20 of us going on trial

341
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:48,840
over a period of about three or four

342
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:49,160
months.

343
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,900
So yeah, Ben's in the first trial that

344
00:12:50,900 --> 00:12:52,060
starts on the 1st of December.

345
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,960
And we've been split into groups of four

346
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,940
or five and mine's the fourth trial.

347
00:12:58,060 --> 00:12:59,480
So my trial's in February.

348
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,900
I'm not too worried about it at the

349
00:13:00,900 --> 00:13:02,740
moment, to be honest, I'm quite hopeful.

350
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,020
It seems so common sense.

351
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:08,480
Yeah, in 2022, there was the opportunity to

352
00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,680
go into MBR Acres and do this.

353
00:13:11,860 --> 00:13:13,900
And yeah, of course, to save those individuals

354
00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,300
that we did, those 23 puppies, I think

355
00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,400
that in and of itself is a really,

356
00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:20,020
really good thing.

357
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,880
But also we did this openly and accountably,

358
00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:24,480
and we wanted it to go to trial

359
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,220
to raise awareness about what's happening to beagles

360
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,960
in animal testing labs still in the UK.

361
00:13:35,470 --> 00:13:37,990
I guess we're just got muted there.

362
00:13:38,230 --> 00:13:40,150
So I'll unmute both of us, but that

363
00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:41,410
is your wife, Rose Patterson.

364
00:13:41,510 --> 00:13:42,810
Her trial hasn't happened yet.

365
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:46,210
Ben Newman, the gentleman who was speaking was

366
00:13:46,210 --> 00:13:48,950
convicted, I believe in the first trial.

367
00:13:49,130 --> 00:13:52,450
So where does that leave the other trials

368
00:13:52,450 --> 00:13:54,230
and where does it leave the appeal?

369
00:13:54,930 --> 00:13:57,110
Yeah, I mean, I think, okay, so a

370
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:57,570
couple of things.

371
00:13:57,770 --> 00:14:00,530
One is, again, the first trial was done

372
00:14:00,530 --> 00:14:04,550
under such extraordinary circumstances where the defendants are

373
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:06,070
getting interrupted in their closing argument.

374
00:14:06,350 --> 00:14:08,410
Lawyers are getting yelled at for just citing

375
00:14:08,410 --> 00:14:09,290
basic facts.

376
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:11,350
There was such extreme bias.

377
00:14:11,510 --> 00:14:12,790
I don't think you can say much about

378
00:14:12,790 --> 00:14:14,530
that first trial in terms of what that

379
00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:15,430
represents for the future.

380
00:14:16,070 --> 00:14:17,090
The second thing is I think the animal

381
00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:17,870
rights team is just learning.

382
00:14:18,130 --> 00:14:19,750
I think there was a lot of debriefing,

383
00:14:19,790 --> 00:14:21,790
a lot of skillsharing, a lot of conversations

384
00:14:21,790 --> 00:14:24,070
that were had, including across the Atlantic Ocean.

385
00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:25,630
And we had some of the top lawyers

386
00:14:25,630 --> 00:14:27,010
in the United States meeting with some of

387
00:14:27,010 --> 00:14:28,710
the top lawyers in the United Kingdom and

388
00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:29,710
some of the defendants in the United Kingdom

389
00:14:29,710 --> 00:14:32,310
to make sure we understood how to tell

390
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:33,690
the story of animal rescue.

391
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:36,410
And the primary line they've been using, I

392
00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:38,030
just think fell flat in this case.

393
00:14:38,650 --> 00:14:41,630
This is the argument that, one, that there's

394
00:14:41,630 --> 00:14:44,250
gonna be some sort of social breakdown if

395
00:14:44,250 --> 00:14:45,250
we don't kill animals.

396
00:14:45,390 --> 00:14:47,830
I mean, it's kind of silly, especially when

397
00:14:47,830 --> 00:14:49,110
it comes to dogs and experiments.

398
00:14:49,230 --> 00:14:50,790
You really think our entire society is gonna

399
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:51,310
collapse.

400
00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:53,030
And those of us who are vegan who

401
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:54,790
know this, because we've talked to our non

402
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:57,050
-vegan friends and they say, oftentimes, this could

403
00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:59,110
be one of the little silly things about

404
00:14:59,110 --> 00:15:01,330
the future of veganism and what veganism would

405
00:15:01,330 --> 00:15:02,970
do to threaten the food supply, to threaten

406
00:15:02,970 --> 00:15:04,070
our way of life.

407
00:15:04,290 --> 00:15:05,630
It's actually not that bad.

408
00:15:05,690 --> 00:15:07,450
Eating tofu instead of beef is just not

409
00:15:07,450 --> 00:15:08,150
that big of a deal.

410
00:15:08,950 --> 00:15:10,610
But the second argument they used over and

411
00:15:10,610 --> 00:15:11,850
over again was this idea, this is just

412
00:15:11,850 --> 00:15:12,730
a publicity stunt.

413
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:15,630
It's all just crazy, deranged activists who are

414
00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:16,730
trying to tell you what to do.

415
00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:18,950
And I thought the counter that was used

416
00:15:18,950 --> 00:15:20,590
this time, which frankly is just the truth

417
00:15:20,590 --> 00:15:22,690
about who we are, was humility.

418
00:15:23,310 --> 00:15:25,650
The activists did a just extraordinary job of

419
00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:27,770
showing vulnerability and showing, we're not trying to

420
00:15:27,770 --> 00:15:28,410
tell you what to do.

421
00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:29,770
We're not saying we're better than you.

422
00:15:30,110 --> 00:15:31,270
We just wanted to help some dogs.

423
00:15:31,630 --> 00:15:33,890
And the reason we needed this publicity wasn't

424
00:15:33,890 --> 00:15:36,650
because we're narcissists who just want attention.

425
00:15:36,850 --> 00:15:38,990
It's because we knew the only way we

426
00:15:38,990 --> 00:15:40,930
could convince the public that something has to

427
00:15:40,930 --> 00:15:42,670
be done for these dogs is to show

428
00:15:42,670 --> 00:15:43,130
you the truth.

429
00:15:43,230 --> 00:15:44,410
The government's not willing to tell you the

430
00:15:44,410 --> 00:15:44,650
truth.

431
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:46,630
The industry certainly isn't willing to tell you

432
00:15:46,630 --> 00:15:46,910
the truth.

433
00:15:47,250 --> 00:15:48,250
We will tell you the truth.

434
00:15:48,590 --> 00:15:50,110
And that made the jury feel like we're

435
00:15:50,110 --> 00:15:51,070
all on the same side here.

436
00:15:51,150 --> 00:15:52,450
And I thought it was extraordinarily effective.

437
00:15:52,530 --> 00:15:54,010
It's one of the reasons we got the

438
00:15:54,010 --> 00:15:55,770
not guilty verdict we got today.

439
00:15:55,890 --> 00:15:57,930
The good thing is in the longterm, that

440
00:15:57,930 --> 00:15:58,950
is the way all these trials are gonna

441
00:15:58,950 --> 00:15:59,110
run.

442
00:15:59,190 --> 00:16:00,470
I don't think the prosecution has any way

443
00:16:00,470 --> 00:16:02,510
to counter that because when one side is

444
00:16:02,510 --> 00:16:04,330
all about transparency and truth, the other side

445
00:16:04,330 --> 00:16:05,530
is all about, no, no, no, no.

446
00:16:05,570 --> 00:16:06,910
You can't hear anything about the experiments.

447
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:09,930
You can't even hear about the defendant's motivations

448
00:16:09,930 --> 00:16:10,890
for what they did.

449
00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:13,110
Then the side that's transparent is gonna win

450
00:16:13,110 --> 00:16:13,670
in the longterm.

451
00:16:14,750 --> 00:16:17,150
Just wanna ask you, of course, as this

452
00:16:17,150 --> 00:16:19,790
is going on, we also have Zoe Rosenberg,

453
00:16:19,810 --> 00:16:26,210
you're seeing here, who is a Berkeley University

454
00:16:26,210 --> 00:16:31,050
graduate, a straight A student, and she rescued

455
00:16:31,050 --> 00:16:31,990
four chickens.

456
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:34,230
You can see the rescue in an open

457
00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:36,570
rescue because this was distributed to the public,

458
00:16:36,690 --> 00:16:37,270
this footage.

459
00:16:37,710 --> 00:16:41,970
She was convicted and she did less than

460
00:16:41,970 --> 00:16:44,730
a month in physical jail, but now she

461
00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:49,910
is under house arrest or maybe it technically

462
00:16:49,910 --> 00:16:51,570
is not the start of house arrest, but

463
00:16:51,570 --> 00:16:52,410
it'll start soon.

464
00:16:52,810 --> 00:16:54,950
Suffice it to say, she's not able to

465
00:16:54,950 --> 00:16:57,110
go out and about her business.

466
00:16:58,790 --> 00:17:03,230
So how does the UK Beagle Rescue Trial,

467
00:17:03,750 --> 00:17:06,910
not guilty verdicts affect the animal rights movement

468
00:17:06,910 --> 00:17:08,349
in the United States?

469
00:17:09,290 --> 00:17:11,790
I think that this is going to set

470
00:17:11,790 --> 00:17:16,050
off a chain reaction against vivisection because the

471
00:17:16,050 --> 00:17:17,990
reality is in many ways, the facts of

472
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:19,470
this case are not ideal.

473
00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:23,670
For example, the UK government has said over

474
00:17:23,670 --> 00:17:25,829
and over again that the facility is legal

475
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:28,270
and the reality is that the audits suggest

476
00:17:28,270 --> 00:17:30,050
that the facility actually did comply with the

477
00:17:30,050 --> 00:17:30,310
law.

478
00:17:30,850 --> 00:17:32,690
In contrast, in the United States, almost all

479
00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:34,850
the vivisection facilities that issue, whether it's Ridgeland

480
00:17:34,850 --> 00:17:36,830
or MBR, because MBR is actually a company

481
00:17:36,830 --> 00:17:37,370
in the United States.

482
00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:39,990
They actually have a massively larger facility in

483
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:40,670
upstate New York.

484
00:17:41,170 --> 00:17:42,750
There are lots of violations that have been

485
00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:45,850
documented against vivisectors in the United States.

486
00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:47,310
At all the facilities, we might want to

487
00:17:47,310 --> 00:17:48,150
target with an open rescue.

488
00:17:49,010 --> 00:17:50,630
A second factor is just the evidence of

489
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:51,930
the condition of the specific animals.

490
00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:54,670
In Ridgeland, we had extensive evidence that the

491
00:17:54,670 --> 00:17:57,810
individual animals we saved, including Julie, this psychotic

492
00:17:57,810 --> 00:17:59,090
beagle who had been trapped in a two

493
00:17:59,090 --> 00:17:59,870
foot by four foot cage.

494
00:18:00,150 --> 00:18:01,590
I mean, these conditions are horrible and awful,

495
00:18:01,870 --> 00:18:04,430
but frankly, compared to American vivisection, UK vivisection

496
00:18:04,430 --> 00:18:06,870
is almost like a luxury house, right?

497
00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:09,090
Because these animals aren't caged in individual cages.

498
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:11,110
They're not trapped in two foot by four

499
00:18:11,110 --> 00:18:13,130
foot metal wire flooring where they have to

500
00:18:13,130 --> 00:18:15,190
live for seven, eight years of their life.

501
00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:18,130
And yet in the UK, they've proven you

502
00:18:18,130 --> 00:18:20,290
can show people conditions like this, which they're

503
00:18:20,290 --> 00:18:22,150
not great, but they're not as awful and

504
00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:24,750
just psychotic and terrifying as the conditions in

505
00:18:24,750 --> 00:18:26,930
US vivisection facilities, and you can still win.

506
00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:28,750
So I think what this is going to

507
00:18:28,750 --> 00:18:30,070
do is it's going to set a precedent.

508
00:18:30,190 --> 00:18:32,370
Frankly, this is not just theoretical.

509
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:34,170
There are already plans being made to go

510
00:18:34,170 --> 00:18:35,790
back to Ridgeland to take all 3,000

511
00:18:35,790 --> 00:18:36,350
dogs out.

512
00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:37,870
This case is going to light a fire

513
00:18:37,870 --> 00:18:39,630
into the movement and inspire more people to

514
00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:40,730
get out to Ridgeland because if they can

515
00:18:40,730 --> 00:18:42,410
win at MBR, we can win at Ridgeland

516
00:18:42,410 --> 00:18:42,650
again.

517
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:44,410
We need to get people out there and

518
00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:46,210
start taking the dogs out.

519
00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:49,170
And for those who do not have any

520
00:18:49,170 --> 00:18:52,870
information about Ridgeland, this is in Dane County,

521
00:18:54,270 --> 00:18:55,610
Minnesota, I believe.

522
00:18:55,970 --> 00:18:56,670
Is it Minnesota?

523
00:18:57,010 --> 00:18:58,050
Wisconsin, Wisconsin.

524
00:18:58,510 --> 00:19:00,990
Sorry, I used to live in Minnesota for

525
00:19:00,990 --> 00:19:01,710
a couple of years.

526
00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:05,030
And so it's the next state over, Wisconsin.

527
00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:09,210
And there's a very large dog breeding facility

528
00:19:09,210 --> 00:19:09,790
there.

529
00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:12,350
And you actually went in there.

530
00:19:12,410 --> 00:19:13,870
I wish I had the video to show,

531
00:19:14,410 --> 00:19:17,850
but you documented the conditions and you were

532
00:19:17,850 --> 00:19:18,550
charged.

533
00:19:18,550 --> 00:19:20,410
Then they dropped the charges.

534
00:19:20,650 --> 00:19:23,110
And instead of you sort of saying, whoo,

535
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:24,130
that was a close one.

536
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:26,290
I don't have to worry about being criminally

537
00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:26,630
charged.

538
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:29,750
You went back to that county and you

539
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:35,270
managed to get a special prosecutor appointed to

540
00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:36,710
investigate the facility.

541
00:19:37,550 --> 00:19:39,030
Will you just give us the update on

542
00:19:39,030 --> 00:19:39,270
that?

543
00:19:39,310 --> 00:19:41,530
Because that is something that I believe is

544
00:19:41,530 --> 00:19:44,450
still ongoing in a certain manner of speaking.

545
00:19:44,730 --> 00:19:48,070
And it was a huge victory.

546
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:49,810
You got that special prosecutor.

547
00:19:50,270 --> 00:19:52,150
Yeah, not only did we get the special

548
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:54,270
prosecutor, but recently Ridgeland announced that they had

549
00:19:54,270 --> 00:19:55,870
reached an agreement with the special prosecutor to

550
00:19:55,870 --> 00:19:59,030
shut down the breeding facility by July 1st,

551
00:19:59,110 --> 00:20:02,810
2026 in exchange for the prosecutor not filing

552
00:20:02,810 --> 00:20:04,130
any felony charges against him.

553
00:20:04,230 --> 00:20:06,510
And the special prosecutor simultaneously released a report

554
00:20:06,510 --> 00:20:10,190
indicating what was just obvious, which is that

555
00:20:10,190 --> 00:20:12,370
Ridgeland has committed hundreds of felony acts of

556
00:20:12,370 --> 00:20:15,970
animal abuse against innocent defenseless dogs, including things

557
00:20:15,970 --> 00:20:19,530
like mutilating dogs, and surgical procedures that were

558
00:20:19,530 --> 00:20:21,950
done by non-vets without any anesthesia.

559
00:20:22,430 --> 00:20:25,270
Imagine performing a surgery on a living, conscious

560
00:20:25,270 --> 00:20:28,130
being without anesthesia by a non-vet.

561
00:20:28,370 --> 00:20:30,750
All those steps of the process are totally

562
00:20:30,750 --> 00:20:31,070
illegal.

563
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:33,430
So the downside is- And by the

564
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:35,810
way, I just want to say that Unchained

565
00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:38,090
TV was the pool camera and had a

566
00:20:38,090 --> 00:20:38,730
camera in court.

567
00:20:38,890 --> 00:20:40,670
And we were there as somebody took the

568
00:20:40,670 --> 00:20:43,550
stand and testified that they themselves saw it.

569
00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:46,270
It's not you just saying that you heard

570
00:20:46,270 --> 00:20:48,270
this, that there were people who were there

571
00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:50,450
who testified in court to that effect.

572
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:52,010
There were people who were part of those

573
00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:52,510
procedures.

574
00:20:52,670 --> 00:20:54,650
Matt Reich and Scott Gilbertson both testified that

575
00:20:54,650 --> 00:20:55,210
we were employees.

576
00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:56,410
We didn't know what we were doing.

577
00:20:56,490 --> 00:20:57,870
We didn't know it was illegal, but we

578
00:20:57,870 --> 00:20:59,170
were forced to do this as a matter

579
00:20:59,170 --> 00:20:59,730
of employment.

580
00:20:59,910 --> 00:21:01,330
And they told even more horrible stories.

581
00:21:01,690 --> 00:21:03,670
Matt Reich told a story about seeing a

582
00:21:03,670 --> 00:21:05,890
newborn puppy who was kind of sick, just

583
00:21:05,890 --> 00:21:07,630
thrown into a freezer bag, being sent into

584
00:21:07,630 --> 00:21:08,650
the landfill, right?

585
00:21:08,690 --> 00:21:10,730
This is a living puppy that was sent

586
00:21:10,730 --> 00:21:11,830
into a garbage can.

587
00:21:11,870 --> 00:21:12,790
And he said, what are we doing?

588
00:21:12,910 --> 00:21:13,950
Don't we have to do something about this

589
00:21:13,950 --> 00:21:14,190
puppy?

590
00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:15,810
But because the puppy was sick and they

591
00:21:15,810 --> 00:21:17,290
didn't want to waste money on trying to

592
00:21:17,290 --> 00:21:18,890
care for this animal because it's a business

593
00:21:18,890 --> 00:21:22,010
and every $100, $200 they're spending cuts into

594
00:21:22,010 --> 00:21:23,810
their bottom line, they literally just threw an

595
00:21:23,810 --> 00:21:24,750
animal away into a landfill.

596
00:21:25,450 --> 00:21:27,490
And they did prosecute us initially for exposing

597
00:21:27,490 --> 00:21:28,850
this facility and rescuing some animals.

598
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:31,070
We turned the tables on them, mostly because

599
00:21:31,070 --> 00:21:31,890
of you.

600
00:21:32,270 --> 00:21:34,370
I mean, not literally you, Shane, but you

601
00:21:34,370 --> 00:21:35,570
and all your audience and all the other

602
00:21:35,570 --> 00:21:37,010
animal advocates around the world who came out

603
00:21:37,010 --> 00:21:38,750
to Wisconsin and said, this is not okay.

604
00:21:39,050 --> 00:21:41,490
You can't cover up animal abuse for decades,

605
00:21:42,490 --> 00:21:44,970
attack the people who expose it, and then

606
00:21:44,970 --> 00:21:47,690
prosecute them for rescuing a blind beagle puppy

607
00:21:47,690 --> 00:21:48,210
from a cage.

608
00:21:48,930 --> 00:21:51,330
And partly because of the outcry, the court

609
00:21:51,330 --> 00:21:53,090
not only had to drop charges against us,

610
00:21:53,090 --> 00:21:55,310
but appointed this special prosecutor who has said

611
00:21:55,310 --> 00:21:56,510
now they're going to shut down by July

612
00:21:56,510 --> 00:21:56,910
1st.

613
00:21:57,090 --> 00:21:59,530
Now, the wrinkle that is a very bad

614
00:21:59,530 --> 00:22:01,130
one for us is twofold.

615
00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:04,730
One is technically Ridgeland can continue to sell

616
00:22:04,730 --> 00:22:07,250
and torture and kill dogs until July 1st,

617
00:22:07,250 --> 00:22:09,330
which means all the thousands of dogs there

618
00:22:09,330 --> 00:22:11,590
may end up dead, even though the government

619
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:13,530
has now acknowledged there are victims of felony

620
00:22:13,530 --> 00:22:14,070
animal abuse.

621
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:15,130
That makes no sense.

622
00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:17,310
If this were an animal cruelty case involving

623
00:22:17,310 --> 00:22:19,650
anyone other than a big, powerful, wealthy industry

624
00:22:19,650 --> 00:22:22,230
the dogs would have been confiscated a year

625
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:23,010
ago, right?

626
00:22:23,130 --> 00:22:24,910
But the second piece of this is extremely

627
00:22:24,910 --> 00:22:27,610
problematic is when we first got a copy

628
00:22:27,610 --> 00:22:29,470
of the stipulation, the agreement with the prosecutor,

629
00:22:30,030 --> 00:22:31,750
we wrote back to him and said, look,

630
00:22:31,870 --> 00:22:34,670
this doesn't stop the company from just rebranding

631
00:22:34,670 --> 00:22:36,310
under different entities' names.

632
00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:39,150
They can reincorporate a new entity, could be

633
00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:40,890
exactly the same one, and just shift the

634
00:22:40,890 --> 00:22:42,430
entire facility to this new ownership.

635
00:22:42,430 --> 00:22:43,970
And he completely blew us off.

636
00:22:44,270 --> 00:22:45,490
I can tell you as a corporate lawyer,

637
00:22:45,530 --> 00:22:47,350
this is exactly what evil corporations do.

638
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:48,210
That's what they do all the time.

639
00:22:48,250 --> 00:22:49,890
Because I sued corporations because of this sort

640
00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:50,110
of thing.

641
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:51,470
I know a lot about this.

642
00:22:51,790 --> 00:22:53,050
And he completely ignored the email.

643
00:22:53,870 --> 00:22:55,590
And initially I thought, honestly, it was just

644
00:22:55,590 --> 00:22:56,650
laziness and incompetence.

645
00:22:56,830 --> 00:22:58,490
But after we got a filing a couple

646
00:22:58,490 --> 00:23:00,270
of weeks ago, and we looked at it

647
00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:03,310
very carefully, that indicated what the basis of

648
00:23:03,310 --> 00:23:06,310
his declining filing of felony charges against Ridgeland

649
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:08,170
was, what the basis was for him deciding

650
00:23:08,170 --> 00:23:08,970
not to seize the dogs.

651
00:23:08,970 --> 00:23:12,530
We realized he has unlawfully been collaborating with

652
00:23:12,530 --> 00:23:13,910
the industry this entire time.

653
00:23:14,470 --> 00:23:15,870
He should have had no context with the

654
00:23:15,870 --> 00:23:18,410
industry, no context with anyone who was adversarial

655
00:23:18,410 --> 00:23:19,730
to the interests of the victims of this

656
00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:20,370
case, the dogs.

657
00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:22,690
And instead, while he was denying us the

658
00:23:22,690 --> 00:23:24,350
opportunity to share our facts, he didn't even

659
00:23:24,350 --> 00:23:25,850
talk to the employees who saw this abuse.

660
00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:28,050
He didn't talk to our expert veterinarians who

661
00:23:28,050 --> 00:23:28,970
opined on this abuse.

662
00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:30,770
He had been spending all this time talking

663
00:23:30,770 --> 00:23:32,330
to factory farming interests in Wisconsin.

664
00:23:32,670 --> 00:23:34,690
That is illegal, that is unconstitutional.

665
00:23:35,230 --> 00:23:36,930
And so our ask now to the government

666
00:23:36,930 --> 00:23:39,450
is, get all of those dogs out or

667
00:23:39,450 --> 00:23:40,350
we will.

668
00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:44,410
Well, I know I've worked with other organizations

669
00:23:44,790 --> 00:23:50,330
like Beagle Freedom Project that has actually gotten

670
00:23:50,330 --> 00:23:53,090
dogs that have been taken from labs, adopted.

671
00:23:53,310 --> 00:23:55,490
So there are people out there who will

672
00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:56,650
adopt these dogs.

673
00:23:57,150 --> 00:24:00,790
Indeed, Beagle Freedom Project got Meghan Markle and

674
00:24:00,790 --> 00:24:03,450
Prince Harry to adopt a dog that had

675
00:24:03,450 --> 00:24:07,950
been experimented on or in a laboratory breeding

676
00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:09,930
facility for laboratory dogs.

677
00:24:10,110 --> 00:24:12,150
So I just wanna thank you, Wayne.

678
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:13,510
I know you're a very busy person.

679
00:24:13,670 --> 00:24:15,730
I know it's very late in London.

680
00:24:16,650 --> 00:24:17,630
Final thoughts.

681
00:24:18,030 --> 00:24:21,650
Here we are sort of maybe back on

682
00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:23,130
our heels a little bit as a movement.

683
00:24:23,630 --> 00:24:26,650
You have the new food pyramid that emphasizes

684
00:24:26,650 --> 00:24:28,590
meat and dairy that came out of nowhere

685
00:24:28,590 --> 00:24:31,050
with a lot of meat industry influence.

686
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,910
You have a media war against veganism going

687
00:24:34,910 --> 00:24:37,810
on with a master's in beef advocacy where

688
00:24:37,810 --> 00:24:40,350
they're churning out these social media influencers to

689
00:24:40,350 --> 00:24:40,950
pump up meat.

690
00:24:41,930 --> 00:24:44,750
You have the fact that the first Animal

691
00:24:44,750 --> 00:24:48,510
Rising group was convicted and poor Zoe Rosenberg

692
00:24:48,510 --> 00:24:52,030
is in, she's lost her freedom and had

693
00:24:52,030 --> 00:24:53,150
to wear an ankle monitor.

694
00:24:54,070 --> 00:24:57,170
Given all of that, I know you're a

695
00:24:57,170 --> 00:24:59,130
person who sees big picture long-term.

696
00:24:59,530 --> 00:25:02,850
How strong is our animal rights movement?

697
00:25:03,550 --> 00:25:05,390
The movement is stronger than it's ever been.

698
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:07,050
And not just because of this verdict.

699
00:25:07,570 --> 00:25:09,310
Frankly, even the things that we see as

700
00:25:09,310 --> 00:25:12,470
defeats like Zoe's case, there's a boomerang effect

701
00:25:12,470 --> 00:25:16,410
where you pull back and suddenly when the

702
00:25:16,410 --> 00:25:19,150
industry pulls back too far and we realize

703
00:25:19,150 --> 00:25:21,310
that the public is actually not down for

704
00:25:21,310 --> 00:25:23,230
a lot of the industry practices.

705
00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:25,330
It's not down for lying to people about

706
00:25:25,330 --> 00:25:27,150
the health costs of red meat.

707
00:25:27,150 --> 00:25:29,230
It's not down for trying to lie to

708
00:25:29,230 --> 00:25:31,790
people about how cultivated meat or beyond meat

709
00:25:31,790 --> 00:25:32,650
is somehow dangerous.

710
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:34,390
And it's certainly not down for putting animal

711
00:25:34,390 --> 00:25:35,190
rescuers in trial.

712
00:25:35,710 --> 00:25:39,190
When they overreach and push back, the slingshot

713
00:25:39,190 --> 00:25:42,330
effect of that boomerang, that whiplash actually propels

714
00:25:42,330 --> 00:25:42,690
us forward.

715
00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:44,450
And I can say this as someone who's

716
00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:47,170
lived through that experience because back in 2009,

717
00:25:47,270 --> 00:25:50,730
2010, I was a lawyer advocating for animals

718
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:51,830
back then as I am today.

719
00:25:51,890 --> 00:25:53,490
And the entire movement felt like it was

720
00:25:53,490 --> 00:25:55,650
in collapse because of the ATA, all the

721
00:25:55,650 --> 00:25:56,890
actives who had gone to prison in the

722
00:25:56,890 --> 00:25:59,350
United States in the 2000s, because the Ag

723
00:25:59,350 --> 00:26:00,890
-Gag laws that are being passed across the

724
00:26:00,890 --> 00:26:02,810
country, veganism was in free fall.

725
00:26:02,910 --> 00:26:04,830
No one seemed to be doing anything successfully.

726
00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:07,310
And I told folks back then, and I'll

727
00:26:07,310 --> 00:26:09,950
tell folks again today, just you wait, because

728
00:26:09,950 --> 00:26:11,370
it's always darkest before the dawn.

729
00:26:11,710 --> 00:26:14,090
And in fact, sometimes the contrast of the

730
00:26:14,090 --> 00:26:16,830
vileness of the industry, the repression the industry

731
00:26:16,830 --> 00:26:19,570
is inflicting on ordinary people is precisely what

732
00:26:19,570 --> 00:26:20,310
propels us forward.

733
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:21,310
And I think that's what we're gonna see

734
00:26:21,310 --> 00:26:21,790
in this case.

735
00:26:22,410 --> 00:26:24,750
Well, from your mouth to God's ear, as

736
00:26:24,750 --> 00:26:27,270
the saying goes, it's so great to talk

737
00:26:27,270 --> 00:26:27,530
to you.

738
00:26:27,710 --> 00:26:29,770
Thank you for taking the time at this

739
00:26:29,770 --> 00:26:32,310
late hour, live from England, everybody.

740
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:37,650
Wayne Chung talking about this incredible, incredible positive

741
00:26:37,650 --> 00:26:43,850
outcome in this trial, namely the acquittal of

742
00:26:43,850 --> 00:26:46,390
these four defendants.

743
00:26:46,650 --> 00:26:48,450
And we'll have to see what happens with

744
00:26:48,450 --> 00:26:49,130
the next case.

745
00:26:49,270 --> 00:26:50,790
We will stay on top of it.

746
00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:52,570
We will see you next time.

747
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:55,290
And thank you for watching Unchained TV.

748
00:26:55,510 --> 00:26:58,630
Please support the Simple Heart, Wayne Chung's blog.

749
00:26:59,270 --> 00:26:59,490
It's an incredible blog.

750
00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:00,910
And go to Animal Rising's website.

751
00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:02,550
Absolutely.

752
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:05,830
And Animal Rising, we must support Animal Rising

753
00:27:05,830 --> 00:27:07,150
in the United Kingdom.

754
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:08,690
See you next time.

755
00:27:09,310 --> 00:27:09,590
Awesome.

756
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:11,810
So it's a vegan Netflix.

757
00:27:12,130 --> 00:27:13,990
Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.

758
00:27:14,010 --> 00:27:15,250
I love Unchained TV.

759
00:27:15,510 --> 00:27:17,270
Unchained, Unchained TV.

760
00:27:17,430 --> 00:27:18,230
Your life will change.

761
00:27:18,350 --> 00:27:19,410
It's just that easy.

762
00:27:19,410 --> 00:27:22,250
Unchained TV has all sorts of content for

763
00:27:22,250 --> 00:27:22,750
everybody.

764
00:27:23,130 --> 00:27:25,170
Unchained TV changed my life.

765
00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:28,270
Unchained TV is crushing it.

766
00:27:28,410 --> 00:27:29,970
I love Unchained TV.

767
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:31,970
Unchained TV is my go-to.

768
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:33,070
Unchained TV.

769
00:27:33,530 --> 00:27:34,090
Who knew?

770
00:27:34,650 --> 00:27:36,690
Unchained, baby, yay!