UnchainedTV: Hey Adidas- Kangaroos Are NOT Shoes!

0:01 My name is Emma Hurst and I'm a member of parliament for the Animal Justice Party in Sydney, Australia. How did the Animal Justice Party get started? This party started because we realised that there was no other political party that was really representing animals in parliament and it became really clear when the environmental party that is already elected failed to support kangaroos. They were actually supporting legislation to shoot our kangaroos. People became really angry, really furious and realised there's just no voice for animals on that legal political scale and that was where the Animal Justice Party was formed. The first time we ran an election, we had somebody elected and the second time we ran in New South Wales, I got elected.

0:47 Wow, we are so honoured and delighted at UnShade TV to have Emma Hurst, a member of parliament from Australia on today and she has a very strong message to Adidas. Emma, what would you say if you could talk to the leaders, the heads, the CEOs of Adidas right now? Just to stop using kangaroos to make shoes, simply. We have the largest land-based massacre of wildlife in the world here in Australia and we're talking about a very, very cruel industry. A lot of people are really aware of what happens to baby harp seals but if you're going to wear soccer shoes made out of kangaroo leather, you may as well wear a baby harp seal jacket to go with it.

1:38 It is an absolutely horrific industry. The code of practise actually requires that joeys have their heads bashed in in this industry and we could end up seeing kangaroos go extinct in the same way as our koalas are now facing extinction as well in Australia. At the height of the holiday shopping season, there was a global day of action and this is a message that the Animal Justice Party, which Emma Hurst represents, has been trying to get through to Adidas for quite a while. Let's listen to a very emotional speech. Emma Hurst, again an Australian member of parliament made in New York City about this issue outside an Adidas store.

2:23 I'm Emma Hurst and I'm a member of parliament in Australia and I'm here to send a very strong message to Adidas. The massacre of our native animals is a terrible price to pay for a pair of shoes. Keep your hands off our native animals. You have blood on your hands when you involve yourself in this massacre. There are other companies like Puma and Nike and today New Balance has also announced that they will not be using kangaroo leather. Adidas, you are now one of the last companies in the world that is involving yourself in the largest mass blood slaughter of native animals.

3:16 Kangaroos are not shoes, just not the slaughter. The bludgeoning of joeys in our country is a terrible price to pay for a pair of shoes. This is the largest land-based massacre of wildlife in the world and as a representative of Australia who is elected to parliament, I want to say hands off our kangaroos. Stop using native animals for your shoes. What some of the people and Adidas is invited on to respond at any time has said during that protest which was brought to us courtesy theirturn.net The Australian government must be doing something about this. They want to save these beautiful animals that are so associated with their wonderful nation.

4:03 What do you say to that as a member of parliament in Australia? We've got a really frustrating situation here in Australia. We actually ran a parliamentary enquiry here in New South Wales into the kangaroo killing industry. We have a two-party system similar to the US and the party that wasn't in power at the time really helped to expose what was happening in the kangaroo killing industry and were genuinely quite shocked and mortified by what was actually happening in the dark and hidden in the night. However, that party is now in power and they're going along with the same lines that we heard the previous government with.

4:44 The government's really in bed with this industry and when myself and our state director Louise Ward actually travelled through the US, we were quite mortified to hear that different representatives and different people representing Australia and Australian governments were actually supporting this industry despite the absolute brutality and the risk of losing the species. We're also in the midst of the sixth mass extinction. Again, we invite Adidas on any time to respond. I want to go to Jennifer Skiff with the Centre for Humane Economy. You have actually met with Adidas.

5:25 Can you tell me what they said? Again, we'd love to hear from them directly. Yes, absolutely. Thank you. It's great to be here with you, Jane. Wayne Fuseli, the founder of the Centre for Humane Economy, started this campaign. We started it three years ago, the Kangaroos Aren't Shoes campaign. It's been fantastic working with all these wonderful, wonderful people. In November, we did have a meeting with Frank Henke, who is the head of sustainability at Adidas. We talked to him. He was well aware of our campaign and well aware of the fact that Nike and Puma and New Balance, all last year, had made the decision to no longer use K -leather in their products.

6:15 What he did tell us is that he believed that what the Australian government told him, which is that the commercial kangaroo shoot was sustainable and was humane. He also mentioned the RSPCA of Australia being under the impression that they felt it was okay, which I have spoken with RSPCA of Australia since then, and they do not, under any circumstances, think that the commercial shoot and the collateral damage of half a million joeys being killed in the pouches, being pulled from pouches and bludgeoned, or the joeys at foot who run and then starve to death, it's not okay.

7:08 It's brutal. It's the antithesis of humane. Now, Donnie Moss, who is on our panel and has provided a lot of our footage, coordinated, along with some incredible team members, a very, very impactful protest at a flagship Adidas store. Let's look at that and then we're going to talk to him on the other side. Kangaroos are not shoes. Just stop the slaughter. This is Donnie Moss with theirturn.net at the Adidas store in New York City, where animal rights activists are calling on the company to stop killing kangaroos to make and to make the switch to cruelty-free materials like Puma, Nike, and New Balance.

7:55 What do you think when you hear about this? We were not aware of that, so we're shocked. The government of Australia, it seems like they would have some ability to stop that. Certainly, there could be synthetic materials. They don't have to be killing kangaroos indiscriminately. Stop the torture. Stop the pain. Adidas football is to blame. Adidas is killing kangaroos to make soccer shoes. What? I just don't think that's necessary at all. I'm very sad about it. It's tragic. Kangaroos are not fashion. Where the hell is your compassion? So we have a message for Adidas.

8:38 We will be back. We'll be back. We'll be back. So, Donnie, similar protests were happening in 30 cities around the country at the height of the shopping season for the holidays. What do you think the impact is? Do you think that Adidas is getting the message? Because Nike was the subject of similar protests, and it was after those protests that Nike said, OK, all right, no more kangaroo leather.

9:20 Yeah, so first of all, over the holidays, actually, 30 protests took place in three continents. They were in Australia, Europe, and the United States. And I can't help but think that there are a lot of people in the boardroom at Adidas talking about how to handle these protests. I once worked for a big company. When we were subjected to protests, people from marketing sales, security, legal, public relations, they all got together to talk about how to handle it. It's very disruptive to have a protest in even one store. But when you have protests in inside of or in front of stores all across the world, that really has to be having an impact.

10:02 Adidas does not want their customer shopping experience to be disrupted by protests. They don't want their customers to know that they use kangaroo skin to make soccer shoes because they know that the vast majority of their customers would oppose it, just as we've shown you on camera. And so our feeling is that because they didn't listen to us when we sent letters and signed petitions, is that we have to escalate with these disruptions until they do what they know is the right thing. Wow. Okay. We've got a caller, Nilo Farr from Dallas, Texas. Your question or thought for our incredible panel talking about this campaign to get Adidas to, hey, Adidas, kangaroos are not shoes.

10:53 Hi. Consumer trends increasingly showed that consumers are aligned with products of ethics and sustainability, which means vegan products, not what Adidas purports to be a product of bludgeoning kangaroos. My question is for Adidas, but since they're not here, maybe you can address it. Why do you think that they are not progressing with the times, which, by the way, will be good for business as shown by Nike, Puma, and New Balance? Excellent question. Louise Ward with Centre for Humane Economy, or Animal Justice Party Australia.

11:38 Yes. Take it away. Look, I really can't answer that. And I'd just like to echo Donny's statement. We'd love to know what's happening in Adidas boardrooms right now, because they must be seriously considering the impact of continuing to use kangaroo products in their shoes, which are actually used in a tiny proportion of the football boots that they make. So I really don't understand why they are holding the line on using kangaroo skin. And maybe they are considering it right now. I would think that they were considering just stopping using it altogether, but I can't answer.

12:21 Maybe Jennifer, who's met with Adidas, could answer better than me. Possibly. I mean, do you have any idea why? It seems like it always takes a lot of protests. This is true throughout the entire animal rights panoply of campaigns. You ask nicely, you send letters, you show evidence, you say, hey, there's no humane way to slaughter these wild animals, and there's crickets, crickets, no response. Then there's protests. Then the protests become in-store protests. Then they become die-ins. Then they become global campaigns. And then all of a sudden, voila, oh, we see the light.

13:04 I mean, it seems like that is pretty much the three-act play that has to occur for the change to happen. Jennifer. Yes, Jane, you're right. I did a lot of research that we have, actually, at the centre. And one thing that we found is that Adidas, as they call themselves, they've used kangaroo leather for a long time, and they've kicked some winning goals with it. So it's ingrained in the corporate thought process. It's kind of their trophy, if you will. And so I think that's part, probably, of what they're thinking about.

13:47 But I will tell you, I even mentioned during the meeting that David Beckham, when he was working for them, accepting money, being sponsored by them for millions of dollars, someone showed him some videos of the Joeys being killed in Australia, and he refused to wear any kangaroo leather. And that was, oh, it was a long time ago. So they continued on. Even with that situation, they continued to use K-leather. Wow. Even with David Beckham, perhaps the most famous star in that sport globally.

14:34 So I want to go back to Emma. What's next? Where do you think this campaign needs to go? Yeah. So, I mean, look, for us, it's really difficult to get any kind of movement here in Australia. There's a real issue with the government supporting this industry and promoting it and pushing it forward. And while Australians absolutely love animals and they're absolutely horrified by this industry, it's very difficult for us to get laws changed here. So that's why we have taken our campaign international. We do have a bill in the US, which we want to make sure is passed. And that bill would actually, and we're working on that bill with the Centre for Humane Economy as well.

15:19 Now, that bill would mean that imports of kangaroo body parts are illegal right across the US. So this would actually stop companies like Adidas in their tracks from being able to actually sell their shoes that are made out of kangaroo skins. And of course, we want bills in other countries as well, because we know, and when we went to the US, when Louise and I went to the US, and everyone that we met with, every single congressperson that we met with and spoke about what was happening in this industry was absolutely horrified. And they wanted to know how they could help. So we're really looking to the US, we're looking to the residents of the US to help us with this campaign and to stand by kangaroos and protect these animals.

16:05 Yeah, we have a little clip of that proposed legislation. Now there is currently bills that have been put forward, and we're going to Washington DC. We want to support the politicians in America who are putting this bill up. We want to help lobby to get that passed. So it's being sponsored by three Republicans and three Democrats. And that bill will make it illegal to import kangaroo meat and skins from Australia. And that's exactly the pressure we need. The US is the second largest importer of kangaroo meat and skins. And so it will send a really clear, strong message to Australia that this is animal cruelty. And we don't want it here. But I am shocked.

16:47 Just hearing the word kangaroo meat. I was just like, Are you kidding me? I've never heard of that. What? I'm almost speechless. Emma? Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of kangaroo meat is used in pet food. And so I mean, it's not something that people eat here in Australia, either. There was a ban in Russia from the the importation of kangaroo meats that occurred several years ago. And that was really because of the E. coli and salmonella. There was a whole lot of investigations in regards to, you know, because these animals are being shot in Australia.

17:32 And remember, Australia is a hot climate. So we're in summer right now. So it can be 40 degrees that these animals are being sorry, that's Celsius. I don't know what that is. Sorry, in Fahrenheit, but very, very hot. And so these animals are being shot in the heat. And their bodies are being dragged through the dirt. They're getting put on the back of a trailer in the middle of, you know, the dusty outback, and then put into these trailers. And they're left there until they're collected and put into chillers and cut up. And what we found was that the E. coli was absolutely through the roof. And I know, my vet certainly told me never to feed companion animals kangaroo meat, because of the risk of health problems within that.

18:17 But sometimes kangaroo meat can be hidden in sausages, or it can be put into other dishes as well. So it is something that is being exported around the world. And as I said, it's being used quite a bit in the pet food industry. But the way that this industry is really making their money is through the skins. And that's why we're really focused on companies like Adidas who are using the skins, because that's what makes this market financially profitable. So I really want to try to get a sense of the impact of these protests. In a couple of seconds, you're going to hear from the LA organisers.

18:59 I actually attended that protest. Unchained TV was there supporting that protest. And I did partake in the in-store demo. But it was happening in 30 cities around the world. So Donnie, you're kind of, you know, the person who really has turned these kinds of protests into an art form. Give us the trajectory in your mind of how much it's going to take for Adidas to hear. Yes. So of course, we won't know. We're not inside that boardroom right now. We don't know what the tipping point will be for Adidas. But what I can tell you is that they are frustrated.

19:41 And you hear that in the voices of the employees. Not that we're interested in engaging with the employees. We're really not. But the employees have been instructed to not interact with us at all and to ignore us. But sometimes they do. And sometimes they come after us. And that can get sort of disruptive. And so and the reason I point that out is because that requires the human resources department at Adidas corporate to sort of roll out new training methods or manuals for how employees need to handle protesters. And as more activists around the world join this campaign and protest inside of or in front of their local Adidas stores, more employees have to be trained.

20:24 It's just such a pain in the neck, for lack of a better expression, that a part of me thinks Adidas is going to wipe their hands clean of K-leather just to avoid all of the human resource issues involved. And I had it mentioned that earlier. I will say this, you know, we never know what the tipping point is because these companies typically don't tell us. In the case of Nike, we did a lot of in-store demos and they were happening in several continents. But it was just a few days before we were going to protest at the home of a board member, Nike's board of directors, who was in charge of sustainability, that they announced that kangaroo free policy. So maybe we need to escalate and bring this campaign to the homes of the decision makers.

21:09 And then, you know, what happens is there's also backlash against that. People are saying, oh, why are you protesting in front of my home? It's kind of sad because I think it's a case of selective indignation. As I said, there are so many efforts that are taken that are gentle and polite. And Louise Ward with the Centre, with the Animal Justice Party, you can probably address that. Or maybe Jennifer Canamy, what nice ways have you taken to try to explain the situation? Who wants to take it? Louise? I will.

21:50 I'll lead into Louise in saying that Louise was the brainchild of the Global Day of Protest. And she is the right person to answer this question. Go ahead. Look, we've tried, as has the Centre for a Humane Economy over many years now, to write to Adidas, to send them nice messages, to send them encouraging messages, to try and tell them, you know, what is happening to kangaroos right now in Australia. And they ignored us. And what can you do when people ignore you?

22:31 You have to take that protest to them. So that's what we decided to do, to take the protest to the front doors of Nike, to the front doors of Adidas. And what about the whole concept that Donnie mentioned, which, you know, unfortunately, I wish it wasn't necessary. But having viewed many of these campaigns, it seems like when you get to the board members' Hamptons houses, or their fancy, you know, retreats, or their Park Avenue homes, and the reason I say that is I've seen the Donnie Moss protests in the Hamptons, protests on Park Avenue. You know, these are very wealthy people.

23:13 And they don't like their neighbours to see all this stuff. Donnie, I have to go back to you. That's what it takes, I think. Yeah, it's not always what it takes. But sometimes that is what it takes. And, you know, think about how embarrassing it is for activists. And keep in mind, we don't want to be doing this. It's just that they forced us to do it by ignoring us. But how, how awkward and embarrassing it is it for somebody to walk out of their apartment building or their home, and to see activists with a picture of the face of the person we're protesting next to kangaroos, you know, with a gunshot wounds with a Joey, sort of at the mother's side crying.

23:54 Nobody wants to be portrayed in that light. It's very embarrassing for them. People have neighbours, people have jobs, they don't, they don't want it. And so we know, and I know from having worked at a big company once, that people don't like to be targeted as individuals, these decision makers. And so we, what's effective is doing what they want, don't want us to do. All right, we got a caller Jose in Arlington, Texas, your question or thought for our panel on the campaign to get Adidas to stop using kangaroo leather. Hi, thank you. I heard you guys mentioned that there was one soccer player that was completely against, you know, using these kangaroo products.

24:39 So I guess my question would be, is there been any type of attempt for you guys to reach out to any other types of celebrities to maybe help them endorse your campaign? Oh, great, great question. All right, who wants to take it? Jennifer? Yeah, we have. But we, during the World Cup, it was a little, it was a little bit late, reaching out to women's soccer players in Australia. But I will tell you, anyone who's watching and has some celebrity friends in the sports world, we would love to talk to you about this.

25:20 Absolutely great idea. We have made attempts and, but great idea. I also think celebrities in general, you know, from my perch, getting a good overview of what's happening in the animal rights world, celebrities go a long way. Like one celebrity standing out, we're here in Hollywood. So I mean, one celebrity coming to Hollywood, Adidas store in Santa Monica, or on the world's trendiest street, Abbot Kinney, where they have a store and saying, you know, what, speaking their mind about this issue. I mean, Emma, as a member of Parliament, I would think that you might have the ability to get that kind of celebrity endorsement for this campaign that others might not be able to.

26:10 And look, we have absolutely reached out to celebrities. And again, we're looking for international celebrities. And I know Louise Ward, our state director, has also reached out to celebrities. There is a celebrity cricketer here who is also vegan, who has spoken out against the use of kangaroo leather. So he here in Australia has spoken on this campaign. But we are looking for some international celebrities too, because I know that that particular celebrity who did speak out did get some pressure from within the sporting industry as well, because he spoke out.

26:53 So there's some real concerns here, but really to get the message really far and really wide, we need some of those really big name celebrities over in the UK and in the US. Donny, you apparently have some information regarding celebrities and this kind of campaign. Yeah, I mean, James Cromwell, the star of that iconic film, Babe, about the pig, and of Succession, that blockbuster show in the US and maybe elsewhere, he actually came to an Adidas protest and staged a disruption and a speak out inside of one of Adidas' very large Manhattan stores.

27:36 And you could see that the employees were simultaneously upset and excited to see the celebrity inside of the store. And that video, and so much of these protests is about ensuring that we reach an even wider audience with the video, but that video absolutely went viral on many different social media outlets. And so yeah, it really does make a difference when someone with that platform speaks out and does so sort of compellingly and thoughtfully, as James Cromwell did. We've got another caller, Sam in Pasadena, your question or thought for our panel on the campaign to get Adidas to stop using kangaroo leather. Hi, hi, my name is Sam. Thank you so much for speaking up and fighting for kangaroos in Australia.

28:19 And thank you, Emma, for being a voice on the parliament, being a parliament and speaking out because I really believe that fighting for animals require legislative action. My question to you guys is, you know, aside from protesting at stores, can you suggest where else we can perhaps write letters or somehow get negative publicity on Adidas? Can you share some other ways that activists can help aside on top of going to the stores to protest? Thank you. Yeah, Emma, you want to take that? Sure.

29:00 Look, there are so many ways that people can get involved. I know that there's some fantastic videos that have been put together by the Animal Justice Party, by the Centre for Human Economy, by Unchain, and also by Donnie Moss at their turn as well. So sharing all of those across social media, sharing our petitions as well. The Animal Justice Party has petitions about this as well. And of course, writing to Adidas as well. Look, certainly, you know, and as a politician, I can tell you the more correspondence that we receive on an issue, you know, your actual email might feel as though it's ignored.

29:40 But I know from working with all these other politicians, that when you receive a huge number of emails about a certain issue, while your particular email may not necessarily be read by the CEO, for example, certainly at their meetings, they will get a report on how many emails they received on a particular issue. So they might say, look, we've had over 5000 emails about the fact that we're using kangaroo leather. So it will come across their table and will get their attention. All right. And Louise, you're saying that you've got another campaign coming up? Yeah, so we're planning another global online action.

30:20 So it's going to be a three pronged attack on Adidas. So we're looking at creating a comment storm on their Instagram, looking at calling, we want to get people in every country in the world to call Adidas head office in that country. And then also an email storm as well to Adidas. So I can share those details of those actions and every single person in the world can participate in those three actions that are going to be occurring on the 16th of January. And we're going to do some protests at Adidas headquarters in various countries as well to coincide with the online actions.

31:03 How many cities do you expect for the January 16th? I'm not sure yet. I know we have people in Canada in Toronto that are going to be going to the HQ there. We've got people in Australia, Melbourne is the head office here. And I know that the activists in Germany who've been amazing, and of course, Adidas is a German company, are very motivated to get to the Adidas global headquarters in Germany. What city in Germany? Donnie might remember, it's not one of the main cities. So I can't think of it off the top of my head.

31:44 But that's where their headquarters is. So that might be a very good way to get their attention by going to the actual... Donnie, when you said go to the homes, if they're in Germany, that's a little bit complicated. Yes, except that there are animal rights activists in Germany. I don't think that they've protested in the city where Adidas' headquarters is located. But also Adidas has corporate offices here in the United States. And so we're not there yet. We really want to give Adidas and its executives the opportunity to do the right thing before we show up on their front doorsteps.

32:27 Well, I mean, this has been going on for a while. How much longer? Not much longer. I mean, you know, and I do think that the German activists in particular are and they've been so wonderful. They just jumped on board on this campaign, and have sort of taken the ball and run with it. And so, yeah, I think that the German activists have that in their sights. Excellent. And I'm just going to kangaroosarenotshoes.org. That's the hub, right, where people can go. And once they go there, there's a whole bunch of petitions that they can sign. That's easy to remember. Kangaroosarenotshoes.org. Kangaroosarenotshoes.org. Head over there right now and sign all the petitions.

33:09 Now, I want to bring in these folks who are the organisers of the L.A. campaign against Adidas for using kangaroo leather, Annie Abram, Michael Fujimori, and their beautiful little dog, Annie's beautiful little dog, Chanel. I'm going to play a clip of the protest that they had, which I attended. I also spoke. And then we're going to talk to them on the other side.

34:04 They are curious, compassionate, and highly social beings who live with their family in bonded community groups and take care of each other. Kangaroos live in harmony with nature and other animals. Kangaroos are also the victims of the largest slaughter of land-based wildlife on the whole planet. Kangaroos are brutally killed. Adidas is making the false claim on its website and in media statements that killing kangaroos is inhumane. It is anything but. Kangaroos are hunted, terrorised, maimed, wounded, shot, and killed.

34:51 Baby kangaroos are bashed to death on bullboards. They're left to die a slow, lonely death without their mother. Wow. So, Annie, tell us what it was like putting it together. You were very emotional. How did you think it went? It went excellent. I was very impressed by everyone, including you. I was thrilled. We were so lucky to have you, really. And this is something that really touches my heart. I lose sleep over this. Babies like mine, I carry her on a baby carrier just like a joey.

35:36 It touches me dearly and personally to think of someone coming and hurting me or hurting my baby. I take the horror that happens to animals so dear and near to me. Let me ask you, Michael, are you guys going to do the January 16th, I believe they said? What are your plans for that? Actually, we researched that, Jane, and the headquarters for Adidas in the U.S. is in Portland, Oregon, I believe. So, I don't know if it's possible to organise something for the whole country to get together in Portland.

36:17 That would be a big ask. What about LA? What are you going to do, January 16th? Are you going to do something January 16th? Yeah, we are going to do something. We will do something. All right. Sounds good. So, we're just getting a little sense of one of the 30 protests. What do we know about Portland? New information. I was not aware that Portland was a key location for Adidas. Jennifer, what do you think could happen there? Well, we talk about it in our meetings, but the protesting is up to the protesters.

36:58 We are the people who meet with Adidas and strategise over the campaign. So, I'll leave that up to Donnie. Donnie and I have talked about that before, and yeah, it's a possibility. Donnie? Yeah, I've definitely reached out to activists in Portland, and I've put this on their radar screen, and I'm following up with them, because Portland really would be a key city for these protests to take place. What are you doing on January 16th? I don't disclose when we're having protests in New York City, because I want to have the ability to get inside of the store to demonstrate, and if they know we're coming in advance, then they'll have extra security there on the lookout for us.

37:45 So, I'm not going to disclose here what we're doing and when. What's your prediction about what's going to happen? Because I have to say, for those who may not be aware, Donnie Moss has pulled off the impossible, not once, but a dozen times, where companies or organisations are completely intransigent, no, we go away, we're not going to do it, leave us alone, and then because Donnie is completely and utterly relentless, they end up doing it. And so, Donnie, what's your prediction on what's going to happen here? Well, when Adidas finally joins Nike, Puma, New Balance, and Diodora, and announcing a K-leather -free policy, it will be because of the global campaign organised by the Centre for Humane Economy and the global attention brought and organisation brought by the Animal Justice Party.

38:42 I mean, in New York City, we're just one of many sort of activist groups that are holding Adidas' feet to the fire. I guess I would say that change, Jane, happens in the discomfort zone. When Adidas is uncomfortable enough, when their lawyers and PR people and security and HR and marketing and salespeople have said, you know what, it's just not the incremental dollars that come in from selling K-leather is not worth the disruption. That's when they're going to do the right thing. Sadly, they're not going to do the right thing, because they know it's sort of ethically the right thing to do. They're going to do the right thing, because they've reached this tipping point, and it's just not worth it to them anymore. Well, using the fur analogy, you were very involved in, we don't even need to say who, a major, major fur designer, who for years, people were trying to get him to stop using fur.

39:37 And letters and even protests at the stores didn't do the trick. But what did do the trick was this person was being honoured or centre stage at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, which is, for those who grew up in New York City, the pinnacle of high society, you know, the Met Gala, the Met Ball. When you're at the Met, you've arrived. And the disruption that you guys did at his event at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, where you played sound of fur-bearing animals being skinned alive, and took to the stage, nonviolent, but confrontational in a nonviolent way, that had the people in the audience with their jaws hanging down on the floor.

40:28 Well, just about a month after that, guess what happened? That designer agreed to stop using fur. Your thoughts, Donnie? Like I said, change happens in the discomfort zone. This fashion designer, and we're not naming names, I guess, was on the stage at the Met, you know, being interviewed. It was probably a very important moment for this fashion designer in his sort of the history of his brand. And to have probably 25 activists, sort of out of nowhere, rise out of their seats, jump onto the stage, disrupt, drop a banner from the balcony, chant, I mean, it must have been so humiliating for him, and so upsetting for him to be subjected to that experience, and to have to leave the auditorium, that he just said, it's not worth it.

41:20 You know, the few extra bucks I make from selling real animal fur doesn't, it's not worth the potential future protests like this, and compromising his reputation like this. And so, you know, sadly, it shouldn't have to come to that. But so often it does. So I mean, using that as a template, and again, I agree with you, I wish that, here's the thing is that people think somehow that the activists enjoy being out there, you know, and nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, it's, it's embarrassing to have to go do it too. You know, I mean, you were in mainstream journalism, Jennifer, I was in mainstream journalism.

42:03 I never really envisioned myself. Well, I can't say that's true, because I was a protester in high school. But I didn't envision myself being involved in these things. But then when I think of these poor animals, when I think of these, these innocent beings being killed, and then their babies being pulled out of their pouches and bludgeoned to death. I also just like Annie Abram can't sleep. And I say, Yes, I'm gonna go there and participate. So Jennifer, um, where, where do we stand as a culture like, yeah, you know, you were in mainstream media, why isn't this all over mainstream media?

42:44 Why is it that, you know, I'm happy that on Shane TV, the world's only vegan streaming network, and animal rights streaming network is covering this as well as Donnie Moss is their turn. But we created those. And I think I can speak for you, media outlets, because the mainstream media is not all over the story, which it should be, because we're in the midst of the sixth mass extinction, we have reduced wildlife biomass globally, to just something like 4% of total mammal biomass, while we've increased livestock biomass to 62% of total mammal biomass. At the rate we're going, we could literally have no wild animals except in zoos within the next decade.

43:31 And yet, these companies, and that would trigger an ecological collapse. I mean, maybe let's do a round robin on this. Emma, Minister, why is it that people in your government, people in the corporate world, is money so blinding that they can't see that this is an apocalypse for humans too? Absolutely. And unfortunately, I think, yeah, I think it all comes down to money and who's making donations to political parties. You know, this goes, you know, beyond our campaign with kangaroos, you know, the entire animal agribusiness industry, and the fact that, you know, it's still legal in Australia to have hens in battery cages and pigs in sow stores.

44:26 And there's money power, there's voting power. And it is very, very difficult, as you say, to get these issues into the media, because people are really confronted by this. They're confronted by these issues when you bring them up. And it makes it very, very difficult to, you know, we'll find journalists that are on site that really want to expose this. But of course, they also have to look into their advertisers and where they're getting their advertising funding from, because that's their main source of funding for that particular media source as well. So there's always all of these complications, because when you go out onto the street, when you go out and actually protest, and as you saw in the videos from their term, when you actually speak to people in the street, they're absolutely horrified by this.

45:16 And it's really hard to get that information out there. And also, there's often this real blind trust from governments, and the fact that the Australian government is putting out false messages about what is actually happening within this industry, that it is so-called sustainable, or that it is humane. And the video footage that we've seen, and when you show anybody on the street that video footage, they're absolutely horrified. This has got absolutely nothing humane about it. And it's certainly not sustainable either. So how can they claim that it's humane? How can they make that claim?

45:58 I mean, that's the problem. A lot of this industry is very, very hidden. And that's another thing as well, is that there's very little footage of exactly what happens. It's often done in the middle of the night that these animals are being killed. It's often happening in rural Australia. There's usually one hunter that goes out with his gun and his truck. So it's very rare that we actually see what's actually happening in this industry. And quite often, we've actually relied on the testimony of hunters themselves about what actually occurs within this industry, and the footage that we have actually seen. One thing that really horrified me was children being taken out with these hunters and being tasked with bludgeoning joeys to death.

46:47 So I mean, this is absolutely horrific. As I said, it's beyond the kangaroo killing industry. This is something we see with animal agribusiness. It's something we see with the fur industry, where these industries are still surviving, despite the fact that there is so much cruelty. And the general population, when you show them what's actually happening, are horrified by this. And Louise, you had a point you wanted to make. Yeah, look, the mainstream media in Australia actually fully supports the industry and constantly props up the myths that the industry and the government put out. And that is that kangaroos are pests. And of course, they're a native animal that's lived in harmony with this environment for 20 million years.

47:32 So they get called pests. And then the other myth is that they're in plague proportions. And we know from even the government's official figures that kangaroo numbers are dropping. So just the last couple of days, the New South Wales government released figures that there's 500,000 less kangaroos in New South Wales than there was last year. We have done some anecdotal citizen science projects as well, asking people, do you see kangaroos in your area? And we have people writing in and saying, there used to be kangaroos here. There's no longer kangaroos in our area anymore. And we know that there's localised extinctions of kangaroos happening across Australia.

48:16 And we know that localised extinction is a precursor to actual extinction. So it's really difficult sometimes in Australia to have conversations with the general public about the need to protect kangaroos, because this myth about plague proportions and overpopulation is so strong, and it is perpetuated by the media and by the government. And it is simply not true. We have another caller, Joey in Alhambra, your question or thought for our panel on ending the use of kangaroo leather by Adidas. Hi, how's it going? Thank you all so much for the campaign.

48:58 I just had a quick question with regards to the public's reaction for those who have been doing disruptions and outreach to the public. What has been their reaction? Because me personally, I wasn't even aware that Adidas was using kangaroo leather until actually quite recently. And it was shocking to me. So what has been the reaction? Thank you. Donny? Sure. First of all, by virtue of the fact that you've recently become aware, I hope that means that all of us are doing our jobs in educating the public about what happens. And hopefully that means Adidas is becoming aware of the public learning its dirty secret and is taking that into account.

49:43 I would say by and large, when we're inside the stores or outside the stores talking to pedestrians, people are shocked to learn that Adidas uses kangaroo skin and are appalled and are grateful that we are out there doing the work. Every so often we'll encounter, because New York City is like a tourist capital of the world, we do encounter Australian tourists. And some of them are aware of the kangaroo killing and are appalled that this species that's used to promote tourism in Australia is killed in the dark of night with the government's support. You do have a few people though who have stopped to speak to us to say, to sort of repeat sort of the industry and the government rhetoric about how these animals are overpopulated and that they're pests.

50:32 I'll say this, look, all of these other animals, including kangaroos who are native to Australia, they're here on this planet with us. They're not here for us. If we as a human species want to continue to reproduce, then we need to figure out how to live in harmony with other species who have every bit as much a right to live in peace as we do. Well said. I mean, the sad fact is that we regard any, any, any animal who in any way, shape or form just causes any kind of what we consider an inconvenience to be a pest.

51:12 And in a lot of cases we're using toxic chemicals to kill them. And then it goes up the food chain and it's not just the rats who also have a right to live and who are a part of the ecosystem, but then it's the birds who eat the rats and die. And then it's the other animals. So the poison goes all the way up the food chain, right here where I live in Venice area of California. I see the black boxes and I complain against them, but you know, we're so short sighted. It's just so much about our own convenience and, oh, there are people who hate squirrels. There are people who get angry if you feed the seagulls or the pigeons a couple of nuts.

51:56 I mean, our speciesist attitude is going to kill us. It really is going to kill us. Do you see any evolution, Emma, in the way people are approaching this issue? Because obviously kangaroos and koala bears are the image that people have when they think of Australia. They think kangaroos and koalas. They're not going there to see people. They're going there to see the wildlife. If you kill all the wildlife, you've killed the most attractive part of your country. Absolutely. And as I say, you know, the Australian people are mortified when they hear what's actually happening in this industry.

52:39 And look, we are getting there. The fact that so many companies have already pulled out from using kangaroo skin, the fact that there is a bill up in the US to ban the importation, the fact that California already has a ban, the fact that New York is now looking at banning the importation and sale of kangaroo body parts. It proves that we're getting there. It proves that message is out there. And as you said, you know, Donnie Moss is absolutely relentless. And I think everyone involved in this campaign is absolutely relentless. You know, we're not going to go anywhere until we win this. We're not going to allow these animals to be continually bludgeoned and murdered.

53:22 We're going to keep fighting on this and we're going to make sure that this industry no longer exists. Wow. Well, I think it's a, I hate to say it, but it's almost like a mathematical formula. When it becomes more expensive to the company to have the offensive product, then it's just, okay, this is costing us too much money. I mean, it's sad, but that is really what it boils down to. What do you think, Jennifer? Well, we're calling them out. Okay. They're telling their board members, they're telling all of their supporters, they are telling everyone who buys an Adidas product that what they do is sustainable and humane.

54:08 They are lying. This campaign is extremely strategic. It's not just all about protest. And so we have, I'm asking everybody here because they're obviously very in tune and interested in participating. Go online and tag Adidas, tag them, let them know how you feel. But more importantly, we do have the Kangaroo Protection Act in Congress right now. Call, just pick up the phone and call your representatives from your state. Tell them who you are and say, please co-sponsor the Kangaroo Protection Act.

54:51 We're doing a lot of things behind the scenes we can't talk about. I had some really exciting news about something last night. Can't share it here, unfortunately, but we're going to win this. Kangaroosarenotshoes.org or .com? .org. Okay. Kangaroosarenotshoes.org. This is what we need to visit. Kangaroosarenotshoes.org. Visit it, get involved. Kangaroosarenotshoes.org. I want to thank everybody for being a part of this conversation. Thank you, Annie Abram and Michael Fujimori for suggesting this interview.

55:37 It's been absolutely fascinating. I will be there January 16th with whatever you decide to do. And of course, as we leave, please download Unchained TV. We're the world's only plant-based animal rights streaming network, 100% free. You can download it for free on your phone, on your Apple TV device, Roku device, or Amazon Fire Stick, or on any Samsung TV. You can also watch it online. So please stay with us. Unchained TV is your voice.