UnchainedTV: How AI Can Save India's Elephants

0:01 Welcome. We have an extraordinarily exciting show for you today, breaking news that is going to save the lives of many elephants in India. And it's truly extraordinary. Artificial intelligence is allowing train conductors to get a warning when elephants are on the track. It's an AI-based warning device that allows the train conductor to slow down so these innocent majestic creatures are not hit by trains. One of the leading causes of elephant deaths in India, and that's just for starters, our incredibly determined and wildly successful guest today has made it a mission of her life to save Asian elephants who are primarily based in India.

0:53 Sangeeta Iyer, let's start with this huge breakthrough. You're getting these devices in. How many have you gotten? How much does it cost? How can people help? And how are they saving elephant lives? Right. Jane, first of all, it's really, really good to be with you and to be able to share about the progress that we're making. And as you mentioned, clearly every year, hundreds of elephants get killed on the India's deadly train tracks. And so our organisation, Voices for Asian Elephants, decided we absolutely had to do something. So we partnered with some of the indigenous tech experts on the ground in India, in West Bengal, and we created this AI-based technology called EleSense.

1:41 It is a device that is made of like four sensors. It actually assesses and determines the temperature, the height, the moving pattern, and takes, you know, three or four of these very important observations, that is the technology that is, and of course the height. And so it makes sure that the elephants, when they are around that area where this device has been installed, it sends out this sirens, this alarm system. And as you have seen in that SMS messaging, we sent out that message to everybody involved, all stakeholders, like the train pilots, the tea plantation people, the forest department, and of course our own team.

2:30 And they then, through the walkie-talkie, send the message to the train pilots to slow down. And when these train pilots slow down, it allows the train to cross and, I mean, allows the elephants to cross over the other side safely. And thus, it has averted some 925-plus train collisions with elephants in India just last year alone. And this year, so far, between January and August, we've averted almost 400-plus train collisions with elephants. That is absolutely extraordinary. I'm also here with my co-host Lindsay Baker.

3:12 And what we're so excited about is that this is cost-effective. Now, you might think to yourself, well, artificial intelligence, high-tech, this has got to cost millions of dollars. There's no way I can help by donating, but that's not the case. The fact is that these are incredibly cost -effective and every single person who donates will be able to pitch in to create another one of these high-tech EleSense devices that can then be deployed in another part of India. So will you tell us, Sangeeta, how much they cost, how many have come in, and why people should donate, why this is a practical solution, not some pie-in-the-sky thing that requires millionaires or billionaires, but that every single one of us can contribute to?

4:00 Right. So last year, we installed 40 devices across certain areas where accidents take place more frequently. And so for those 40 devices, we ended up raising $80,000. So you can actually divide that because we have to get, procure the material, the equipment, and then of course, we have to pay the people who work for us, et cetera, et cetera. And now what we're doing this year is we are actually installing 30 devices in a core elephant range called the Chapramari Wildlife Sanctuary. And then along with that, we're also installing 30 additional devices, EleSense devices inside the Buxa Tiger Reserve.

4:45 So we are installing now, we are expanding it given the success of our installations last year. And given that we have averted some 940 plus, 25 plus elephant deaths, 925 plus elephant deaths just last year alone. Sorry, these numbers are so hard to recall, but at the end of the day, we are so excited because it works. And with these 30 devices, and I just want to share a quick story about why Chapramari Forest. In this particular area, Jane and Lindsay, what had happened was a mom, a pregnant elephant and her daughter, as well as her herd were just crossing because what happens, and I've visited this place in Chapramari, the twists and turns are so steep and crooked and sudden.

5:35 And what happens is when a train is coming from here, this train is unable to see that there's an elephant on that side because the train, it's so kind of sudden, right? And so that's why the installation of these devices is so critical because what happened in that situation is that pregnant elephant and her newborn daughter were crushed to death inside the Chapramari Forest. And so that was, I went and I visited that area. I saw where they had cremated the three elephants. And at that time, I made a pledge that we are going to do everything we can to protect the elephants from getting killed on those train tracks.

6:17 It breaks my heart every single day when I think of the pregnant mom. And so now in collaboration with the Forest Department, with the Railway Department, and with our team, we are really making significant progress. And similar situation with the Buxa Tiger Reserve, a herd of three elephants dragged 200 feet because of the speeding train. Just real heartbreaking stories. Well, we actually have a video showing that elephants travel in large groups. And this is one of the reasons why the train tracks are so deadly to them. Because as you can see here, this is video from Voices for African Asian Society, African Elephant Society.

7:00 Asian Elephant Society, sorry. They're travelling in very large groups. And so when this train hits, it wipes out an entire family. And of course the family is devastated, fractured, doesn't really know how to pick up the pieces. So this is the device. You're looking at it right there. It's a high-tech device and artificial intelligence is making it even more efficient. So this is the next iteration. It keeps getting more and more sophisticated. I urge everybody, if you care about this issue, we're driving animals into extinction. And these high-tech methods can truly save African elephants.

7:44 But I was also talking to a rescuer, an animal advocate who's working with elephants in Africa. And he was extremely excited upon hearing about this, saying that this could help African elephants too. I mean, could this be deployed worldwide? Yeah, actually, yeah. What we are doing is we are installing these to protect Asian elephants in India, just to kind of be clear. And then in Africa also, there are similar human elephant conflicts that railway tracks, road tracks, all these, they actually enter the core elephant areas.

8:24 This is absolutely sort of transferable to any location, not just to save elephants, but to save all wildlife. Can you imagine if we had something like this that can alert us? It's just that they need to be installed at certain levels and all of the computer programming needs to be changed for specific animals. Like for instance, if it is a cougar, or if it is fox, or if it's tiger, we have different modules for that, right? But for elephants, it's a totally different, these are all Asian elephants that you're seeing, all of them in India. And my work is entirely focused in India. And these devices, are being installed in the Northeastern state of West Bengal.

9:08 And these elephants, you're seeing wild elephants, I had actually filmed them in Assam, which is the state very much next to the West Bengal state. And look at how gorgeous and stunningly beautiful they are. How can we allow these mesmerising majestic creatures to perish? So we really, all of us have to come together to protect them, because they play a critical role in the forest ecosystems. Oh, for sure. And you're doing so much, just that would be enough. But Sangeeta Iyer through her organisation, and I urge everyone watching, just donate something, even $10, become a monthly donor, $10 a month, $5 a month, $25 a month, or feel free if you're rolling in it to give 50 ,000, the sky's the limit.

9:58 But the great thing about this organisation is it's not theoretical. Every cent goes into actually purchasing these devices, and other devices that we're going to get to that are equally high tech and really transforming the lives of elephants in India. So what kind of press have you gotten on this in India? Because so often animal rights advances are ignored. But this one I would think in India would get a lot of good press. Absolutely. And yes, when we launched it in 2022, it was almost like a statewide coverage. And we've got all of the press stories on our website, vfaes.org, O-R-G.

10:42 And all of the information in terms of even how they function, the basic information is available. And you see images of all of us coming together as a team, that is the forest, the railway, the real estate, I'm sorry, the T-estate people, real estate, the T -estate people, all of us coming together working collaboratively. And that's yet another thing, Jane, and you are the epitome of collaboration, to be honest with you. Because when we work together, we can achieve so much. But when we start working in fragments, nobody knows what the other person is doing. And we can all learn from each other, right? Because not one individual has all the solutions, but one individual has one solution that can be transferred to other places, as you mentioned, like maybe take what we're doing in India over to Africa.

11:29 And, you know, that's the way to save all of the animals, right? Because they are being diminished at an unprecedented rate at this point. And one of the reasons is that, oh, my gosh, this is another incredible technological advance that you've made. What we're looking at here is an elephant, right? This looks like an actual, real elephant being used in a religious ritual. But guess what? This is not a real elephant, because real elephants, when they're used in these religious rituals, are often tortured. In fact, I would say they are tortured, period, end of story.

12:12 But this is a robotic elephant that looks so much like a real elephant that it's now in demand by temples in India who would like to switch out to these robotic elephants so they don't have to capture elephants from the wild, kill like half the herd, break them, keep them in shackles, whip them, all the other things that go along with making elephants perform. So can you tell us about what you've done with that incredible high-tech solution to the problems of elephants being abused as part of religious rituals?

12:54 So thank you for asking that question. It all began in 2016, you might remember. And, of course, Unchained TV is carrying the movie Gods and Shackles on your channel, right? And so when I launched the film Gods and Shackles, I was devastated to witness these majestic beings completely enslaved, shackles cutting into their flesh, on their ankles, pus oozing, tears flowing down their faces, massive tumours on their bodies. And I said I needed to do something. And I thought, well, producing a film and creating awareness is all I was going to do. But no, actually what happened with that film is it created an incredible sense of awareness that now the Kerala High Court is intervening.

13:41 So let me speak about that a little bit before we get into the robotic elephant and the advancements we are making, if that's okay with you. Yes. So what happened is that there's this one particular temple. It has been actually designated as a United States heritage site, right? UN heritage. Yeah, exactly. It's not United States, excuse me, United Nations heritage site. And so that place is called the Guruvayur temple. And in that temple, they had, when I filmed Gods and Shackles, because there's a segment about this temple, they had some 52 elephants.

14:22 Today they have only 38 elephants. All of them have died miserable deaths. And when I was filming, I still remember so vividly, Jane, it was just heartbreaking to see this one elephant trying to break his chain. It's almost like he kept lifting and that's the image that you just shared. He was just lifting his leg and almost showing me, do something, do something for us. And then I was filming, he took some mud on his trunk and he tossed the mud at me. It's like, get out of here or do something for me. There's this communication I was feeling with him. And I thought to myself, oh God, not just exposing these films, I got to take some court action.

15:07 So I filed a Kerala high court case in 2022. Everything I documented in that film confined to merely 19 acres were 52 elephants. Now there are only 39 elephants, but according to the Central Zoo Authority, each elephant needs a minimum of 1.2 acre space. And then the painful chains cutting into their skin so tightly, so severely tied up, all four legs shackled and they're standing on their own urine and excrement. This is not only causing foot rot, but also deadly diseases like tuberculosis, herpes, and all of these things.

15:50 A miserable lifetime of isolation, nowhere to go, nobody to socialise with. Elephants are supremely intelligent and highly social animals. The images that you're seeing right now is from our camera trap. Elephants crossing over the train tracks safely because of the installation of the EleSense device. But what I'm talking about here is the captive elephants, they live in real filthy, filthy conditions. And so I said, you know, I got to do something. There's this one particular elephant in captivity. His name was Mukundan. And his heartbreaking story, he was actually crippled.

16:30 His entire front left leg was so twisted that he had to walk with three legs. And elephants are so heavy, they bear their weight on the four legs. It's like the four pillars that bear their body's weight. But this guy who's only 44 years old, he'd been brutally made limb. And then in spite of him being limb, they were chaining him. How can this poor animal hurt anybody? He doesn't have any desire to even live, let alone trying to fight for his own life.

17:14 Sadly, just about a month and a half ago, thankfully also he passed away, but he died a miserable death. And so I launched this court case, giving all of the information and I'm so excited to share with you that the Animal Welfare Board of India and the Central Zoo Authority, they visited this location and the Kerala High Court constituted a fantastic committee. They all went and they inspected this area and everything that I had pointed in that documentation, they completely, I just felt so vindicated. It's not even funny. I just felt so vindicated because everything I said, they said, okay.

17:59 And here's amazing news. Six of the elephants that are kept in miserable conditions, the Animal Welfare Board of India has asked them to be relocated immediately. Move to a rehab centre because of our court case. And the other thing that has happened with the Kerala High Court, another breaking news is not a single elephant can be ever transferred from any other state for parading. That's it, period. You guys work with what you guys have right now. And over and beyond that, the Kerala High Court has provided some incredible guidelines. If you don't adhere to these guidelines, if you flout any of these guidelines, you will face the most stringent penalties.

18:47 And again, everything's like a, how would you say, cascading effect from the gods in shackles to people being aware. And then there are amazing local activists also. After the movie was released, they all started speaking out boldly. It's almost like they had the permission now to talk. It's like, come on, let's end this. And so- I just wanna jump in and say, first of all, kudos. This is just an incredible example of how one person determined, okay, can make a difference. Because you saw that, you saw the horrific condition of these elephants in the temple.

19:28 You made a vow that you were gonna help these elephants. You took legal action because you did a documentary called Gods in Shackles, which is streaming on Unchained TV. Just go to Unchained TV and you can watch it for free. It is a really spectacular documentary that has won awards, but it also provides the evidence. In other words, the evidence is right there for the legal authorities to see. And that's why, if you had just gone there without videotaped evidence, you would not have had the same outcome.

20:09 But you had videotaped evidence of what's happening to these elephants. So you said, just to recap, six of them have to be moved out through a sanctuary. And so that leaves 32. And no more coming in. No more coming in. And so here's yet another thing, right? So these 32 elephants, now they're crammed into a 19 acre land. But the Animal Welfare Board of India has actually said, no, you got to create more space. They have, like this temple has 60 to 80 acres of land. So the Animal Welfare Board of India has stipulated that one single elephant has to have a minimum of 1.2 acres.

20:59 Number two, no more iron chains. The iron chains need to have sheathing, or you have to put rope around their legs. Not all four legs can be tethered. Only one leg can be tethered if necessary. Otherwise, allow them to be in their enclosure. Routine health checks for every, I'm reading it out of all of the results that the Animal Welfare Board of India has recommended, that routine health checks in order to make sure that they don't have herpes, or they don't have tuberculosis. First and foremost, ensuring that all of them have shades over their head. Out of these 39 elephants, at least 17 of them have no shelter to shade them from the sun, the scorching sun of India.

21:48 And so that is yet another thing. And water, like there's no water. I actually documented one elephant just desperately trying to reach and drink water. He couldn't even reach. And this is a religious temple? Yes. And this cruelty is happening in the name of religion? In the name of culture and religion, exactly. And that's the irony of it all in India. I have questions. Yes. You're saying, was this a UNESCO World Heritage Site? Exactly. How is it possible that the folks from the UNESCO World Heritage Foundation, or whatever they call it, didn't see this and say, there's a problem here?

22:33 Because the temple is located in one area. And this, I call this an elephant concentration camp. This concentration camp for elephants is located in a different area. So what UNESCO people did was just, and I even contacted them. And I said, you have given this temple the World Heritage Site status. And this is how they treat elephants. Then the woman said, well, this has something to do with culture. I'm like, well, so because it has to do with culture, does that mean that they treat the animals in any which way they want, like with such utter cruelty and disdain and disregard? And they couldn't answer the question.

23:15 So I'm sure maybe you and I can talk and figure out a way to maybe come up with something like a campaign or something. Well, I mean, I've been to UNESCO World Heritage Sites and they're always spectacular. And you learn a lot. They're historic. There's very few of them. It's a big planet. And so I think that shame on them. And now you have the backing of the authorities. It's not just you saying it. So my question to you is, have you taken the decision of the authorities in India that sided with you about the conditions? And have you gone back to the UNESCO World Heritage Organisation to say, here.

23:59 So not yet. There's a reason why we haven't done that. So the report has been produced by the AWBI, Animal Welfare Board of India and the Central Zoo Authority, and has been submitted to the Kerala High Court. Now there are going to be a few more hearings because that temple is going to come back and say, oh, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know how it goes, right? They're going to come back and start arguing. And that argument will go on for a little while. But this is huge news because the Animal Welfare Board of India and the Central Zoo Authority have sided with what we have observed. Ultimately, I am absolutely certain that the Kerala High Court will make a proper judgement. And when that judgement is received, that's when we can take that judgement and we can then go.

24:45 So this is still a long ways to go, maybe about a year, because the wheels of justice turns ever so slowly, as we all know, around the world. A couple of questions then, will the six elephants, will they be transferred before the end of the court case or are they stuck there until the end of the court case? So that's one of the things that we are watching, because I think the court hearing is on the 14th, which is tomorrow. And of course, the arguments will go on for a few weeks, months. And we are hoping that we'll receive a judgement early next year. So it's still a few months to bear. And I know these elephants have been there for decades.

25:26 And so, I mean, as much as we would like to move them right now, that may not be possible because of the fact that the Kerala High Court needs to give the judgement. And I just have to say, we invite anybody involved, the UNESCO World Heritage Organisation, the temple itself, on Unchained TV, anytime. We would love to dialogue with you and get your side of the story and get your response to what Sangeeta has documented. Meanwhile, all of us can take action. We're not powerless, because people are like, oh my gosh, oh no. Yeah, you can donate to VFAES.org. That stands for Voices for Asian Elephants Society .org.

26:11 And your money will go directly to creating alternatives. So I want Lindsay to play a clip of you describing the robotic elephants. Because let me just say this, all of this is happening because they're using live elephants in religious temples and religious ceremonies. Now, Sangeeta, through her organisation, has developed these incredibly lifelike robotic elephants. Let's hear her describe these elephants, and then we're going to talk about it on the other side. Great. Just look at this majestic elephant. Doesn't he look real? Well, actually, he is a robotic elephant, and Voices for Asian Elephants has donated this beautiful majestic elephant to a temple in the Gudaloo district of Tamil Nadu, the first ever in the state.

27:06 And this particular district actually borders Kerala. And the purpose of providing this robotic elephant is to replace live elephants and end elephant torture. But just look at his eye. It moves as though this is actually a real elephant. Look at the eyelashes. Look at the texture of his skin. This whole robotic elephant was designed by Prasant, who owns this organisation called HEARTS. That is H E dash R. This is just the very first robotic elephant that Voices for Asian Elephants has sponsored with the support of Ganesh Hariharan.

27:52 And the mission is to promote humane treatment of elephants, while at the same time preserve India's rich culture and heritage. Wow, that is so exciting. And I think that everybody there looked very excited. It's not a sacrifice. I mean, the robotic elephants are super cool. So you're saying that this is getting a lot of news media coverage in India. Look, there are a lot of very wealthy people in India, tech billionaires. Have you been able to reach them? Because with pocket change, they could have not only the high-tech train devices, but the robotic elephants, they could solve this with the amount of money that it takes to get on a private jet and go somewhere.

28:44 Yeah, absolutely. And it's not about how much they have, but it's the willingness. It's that some of them, or I would say most of them, are unwilling to even consider. But let me tell you this. The first robotic elephant was launched in February of this year, and we are launching the next robotic elephant in February 2025, thanks to Dolores Whitley. She fully sponsored that particular robotic elephant that we are about to launch. And we won't be able to share the exact location, but what I can do is when I am there, and after the ceremonies are done, I will share with you the images and videos, and you can do with it what you wish.

29:29 But that's how we're going to continue to end elephant slavery and elephant abuse, because we are providing alternatives. It's one thing for us to go there and say, no, no, no, no, don't use elephants. We are not offending any of them because we are saying, hey, we honour and respect your rich culture and traditions. But the thing with the Indian culture also is that Hindu philosophies are grounded in ahimsa, which is nonviolence. And then when you awaken these people and remind them that, hey, everything you're doing goes against our philosophies, so kind of in a gentle manner, nudging them and using the power of culture and religion to change their way of thinking, right?

30:18 They are being misinterpreted, all of the religious scriptures and cultural stuff. So it's our job to kind of help them unlearn and then relearn the new way. And by the way, if you're watching this on social media, share it out, because you could hit one person that might decide, you know what, I just got a bonus. I'm going to give it to Sangeeta and the Voices for Asian Elephant Society. Go ahead. Yeah, I just wanted to say that since it's a religious ceremony and it's about symbolism, the robotic elephants serve the purpose beautifully. So that's a great thing.

30:58 And my question is, how much per elephant robotic does it cost? Go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, no, no, no, go ahead. So it varies. It just the manufacturing of the elephant itself costs some six lakhs, that is, oh, God, that's 600,000 rupees, right? When we convert it, I think it works out to something like 6,000 or 7 ,000 US dollars. But then there is additional costs involved in terms of transportation, in terms of creating the ornaments, in terms of creating all kinds of additional stuff, right, for the elephant to be transported or to be placed upon so that he can be then toured across because they put him on a wheel, something, and then they drag the robotic elephant around just the way they do with live elephants instead of, you know, harassing and abusing those elephants.

31:56 So it costs anywhere between 7,000 to 10,000 US dollars, all inclusive. And one of the things we also do is we also have like, you know, legal requirements, ensuring that they are not misusing or abusing that all of these things. If there's a problem with the maintenance, then the temple would take charge of taking care of it, look after the elephant, because then there's a sense of accountability. So yes, it's between somewhere between 8,000, 10,000 bucks. Is it electric, or is it charged? Do you charge it or is battery powered? How does it work? It's battery powered, and it's AI powered and battery powered.

32:40 And so this is the thing. It's not just the ear flapping, but this elephant can also actually squirt water on you. That's the kind of blessings that the real elephants provide. So they have that. And then there's also the tail, also in the backside, you know, moves. And so there's a whole bunch of movement things happening. It's completely battery operated. Oh, my gosh, that's incredible. So $10,000 there's, I think, let me ask you this question, because, you know, I've been in this movement for quite a long time, and I've emceed many galas raising funds. What I've noticed is, if you can name the elephant after the person, yes, that might be the thing.

33:27 Because people love to say, I've got something named after me. Yeah, that's what we did. That's what we did with the first elephant. We named, I asked Ganesh Hariharan, who had sponsored the first elephant. And he actually dedicated that elephant to his father, his late father. So we gave the elephant his father's name. Wow. I'm sorry, I wanted to just put in there that I know this a little different, but electronic replacement of horse-drawn carriages with electronic carts has done incredibly well, where the drivers are actually making more money and less upkeep.

34:11 So this may be an economic solution. So that's great to know. I just wanted to throw that in. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Anytime you take a ride, I'm very ashamed to say, and one of the reasons that I've been trying to do a living immense for many years is, when I went to India many years ago with my mother, we rode on an elephant and I didn't know better. I said, oh, I love elephants. And then, oh, thinking that it was fun for them not knowing that it involved such torture. And I'm ashamed of myself, even though that was, my gosh, back in 1993 or four.

34:53 But I've been seeking to do a living immense ever since to make up for it. And let's talk a little bit about that. Part of the exploitation of India's elephants is for tourism, right, Sangeeta? Well, for the most part, unlike Thailand, there's a little bit of difference between what happens in Thailand and in India. Yes, there is a segment of population who still thrive on elephant back rides, even in India, even Indian people. But out of the 2,600 odd captive elephants, I think about 3,000 captive elephants, at least 1,200 to 1,300 of them are in the religious institutions like the temples, the mosques, and even churches.

35:40 All of them, because they say, oh, well, if temple is getting, if this temple is getting a piece of economic pie, why not me? And I think Lindsay hit the nail right on saying that, hey, you guys are actually going to be saving a lot of money by implementing this robotic elephant. That's one of the things we actually talked to the previous temple authorities. And now this other temple authorities with whom we are working right now to sponsor our February or to launch our February robotic elephant, we're saying the same thing, that upkeep is much better. And more than anything, there are no stampedes. People are not getting killed.

36:20 Elephants are not getting tortured. So it's a win-win situation overall. Now, where can these elephants go as you replace the living elephants with the robotic elephants? Again, anybody who wants to get an elephant named after them, a robot elephant, 10,000 bucks, you got it. It's very tempting. And so where do the living elephants go? Are there elephant sanctuaries that they can be shipped to immediately where they can live out their lives in peace and serenity? Right. So that's one of the things that the Kerala High Court as well as the Animal Welfare Board of India are actually suggesting that there needs to be, there was a sort of like a contemplation, almost a construction of a rehab centre that began in 2018.

37:08 It is still incompleted and it's called the Kottur Elephant Rehab Centre. So they have this one rehab centre. But the problem with that rehab centre is that they still don't have positive reinforcement training, you know, where there's this, you know, reward, like you do something good and you, you know, so you get rewarded with bananas or all kinds of treats, et cetera, et cetera. Or there's no foot care, there's no exercise because elephants are enormous physically, emotionally, they need to have some kind of a, you know, enrichment programmes, right? And so those are some of the things that have been recommended in this report that the Animal Welfare Board of India has provided.

37:53 And specifically they have said that Kerala is an elephant state. And so you ought to have a rehab centre up and running to take in these elephants that are either geriatric, that are old, that are disabled, you know, and the temples themselves, they can actually create sort of like a 1.2 acre space easily. They're rich. I mean, Indian temples are really rich. Let me ask you this question because Lindsay raised the whole issue of horse-drawn carriages. And in New York City, where I grew up, it's been a battle, a battle for decades to get them off the streets.

38:35 It's so horrible to watch them navigating police cars, taxi cabs, buses, motorcycles. It's so awful that in the arguably most important city, this is still happening. They've made some incremental progress of getting them to be mostly in Central Park as opposed to navigating up and down like Times Square. However, the news media has never been very friendly toward this whole effort. And they constantly promote the romance of a horse-drawn carriage. And on Unchained TV, we have a great episode with the movie star, Kathy Najimy, confronting people about getting on horse-drawn carriages and begging them not to do it.

39:24 But in India, is the news media siding with the old, oh, it's culture, the temple, or are they siding with, hey, let's get these animals out of these temples? And what was their reaction to the findings and the victory you saw in court? So the findings and the victory in court are still actually not being released to the media. But what they have been incredibly supportive of is the launch of our robotic elephant. Again, on our website, a tonne of media coverage, especially The Hindu, which is like one of the most highly read, it's like one of the most respected dailies in India.

40:09 And so they covered the story. The BBC covered the story. And there's a lot of media that actually understands the importance of protecting elephants. And here's the thing, when we released Gods and Shackles, that is when I believe that even the media felt kind of, okay, I have the permission now to speak, right? Because they were all controlled by the lobby groups, as we know it, and the politicians, they're all in it together, as we know, everywhere around the world. And the only thing we can all do is collectively come together and talk and empower even the media by offering them exclusive stories, talking to them on an ongoing basis, cultivating relationships, and kind of even ensuring that there's no both-ism.

41:02 When it's torture, it is torture. You cannot go and ask a temple authority, why do you have elephant? And then a person who is trying to save the elephant to balance the story. I mean, that's kind of nonsensical. But I didn't experience any of that. What happened was the media was very supportive. And as soon as we have the Kerala High Court's decision that comes out, we will definitely do a mass media coverage of that as well. Okay, when I think of India, and I did visit India with my mom many years ago, and it's such an incredible country, but I also think of Bollywood. And I know that Bollywood stars are very influential in India.

41:47 Have you managed to get any Bollywood stars on your side? Because I have a feeling that if you did, that would be like the tipping point. Like maybe get one of these robotic elephants named after a Bollywood star. Or think outside the box, because honestly, I think that we do live in a celebrity culture. That's just a fact. And Bollywood is so hot. And these Bollywood stars, I think, would have huge influence. Yes, actually, we have reached out to Abraham, John Abraham. He's an animal welfare kind of person. And he speaks out against any kind of cruelty, hurting the dogs or cats and whatever.

42:33 They push out a couple of social media posts, but there's nothing more than that. The kind of animal advocacy we see in Hollywood is what we don't see. We don't see that kind of love for animals in Bollywood. In fact, I even met Priyanka Chopra when I was at the South by Southwest Festival. I gave her a copy of my book. And then what we had also done is when we had the Emmy Awards, even the Oscars, we distributed my books as a special gift to all of those actors, actresses, et cetera, as a special gift. But who's going to speak out for them? They're all afraid that, oh, if they spoke out against the culture, then there's going to be a backlash and they're going to lose their fans.

43:19 So it's a very different kind of thinking. And the culture is very different in India. Again, I'm not saying that they won't, but they just don't speak out the way the Hollywood celebrities speak out. They come strong and they speak out for the voice. Some of them. Some of them at least. Like Joaquin Phoenix and Moby and some of the heroes we have, and Billie Eilish. But they're few and far between, quite honestly. So I also want to ask you about politics in India. Honestly, I'm not an expert in the political system and the political infighting in India, but where do the politicians stand on all this?

44:02 So the ruling party right now is grounded in Hinduism. And there is a very wealthy person who... You don't need to name that person. No, I won't. That's why I didn't name who. That's why I said who actually is very cosy up, cozying up with the current political party. But it is money dominance. Let me leave it at that. And this person owns a lot of animals and he's got a fascination for animals. And there are a lot of good things he's doing. Definitely. He's rescued a lot of zoo elephants.

44:43 They have rescued some circus elephants. But there's also some insidious things that are probably going on. I don't have any evidence regarding that, but there are talks that maybe even wild elephants are being captured. Again, I'm not going to say that without having any evidence, but there's always controversy surrounding them. And then when it comes to anything to do with culture and Hinduism, et cetera, it's a very sensitive topic in India. And the politicians revolve around protectionism, wherein it's all about protecting our culture and traditions. Doesn't matter how much what harm we cause.

45:26 So this is where I'm using the same Hinduism to say, hey, Hinduism actually promotes nonviolence. How about if we take a look at that rather than misinterpreting the scriptures, et cetera? Shall we just really authentically embrace what it means? Not because it benefits all of you guys, but because that is the reality. That's what the Hinduism preaches, ahimsa. There's one other issue that I want to get to that's really important. And I want to put it in context. I'd like to find out how many elephants remain in India who are not just in temples, but who are roaming free.

46:08 And your effort to create wildlife corridors for this, because if the elephants just stay in one area, they inbreed, and that creates a whole set of problems. So you're trying to create wildlife corridors throughout India where these elephants can travel from one area to another. And again, when you donate to Voices for Asian Elephant Society, hopefully we can put up the donate link, there it is, vfaes.org, even $10 a month, $5 a month. Cumulatively, this is going to create the funds that allow Sangeeta to buy the land.

46:48 Tell us about it. Yeah. Thank you for asking that question. That's a very important point you're making, right? Because if they don't have enough space, inbreeding is definitely going to happen, and that is going to reduce the genetic pool significantly. And therefore, what we are doing is we are purchasing... First of all, what we did was we are rewilding some of the forests that have completely been degraded. And so just recently, about a few months back, we planted some 50,000 elephant-friendly saplings. We created eight large water holes. And we have amazing images and videos of elephants visiting the water holes.

47:33 You can see the elephant footprints, and it just makes my heart smile. And so that is how we started. Then I asked, why can we not buy some of these areas and own it? Because then it'll be protected. And so next year, I'm again excited to share with you that we are purchasing a 12-acre plot of land around the forest fringes in Odisha, and we're going to continue to expand it around the circumference of the forest itself, and then rewild, and then plant saplings as we had done in the past because of the experience. And we are also employing tribal women.

48:16 So this is women empowerment. This is such a win-win situation because we're helping the elephants, we're helping women, we're helping men who are digging water holes. We are hiring local people to... Engineers to go and figure out where we can find water, where there are water sources. So we are talking and consulting with conservationists locally on the ground. It is such a win-win situation. It is heartening because corridors are diminishing at an unprecedented rate. Human population in India, just to provide you some perspective, 18% of the world's human population is situated in India.

48:56 18%, just wrap your mind around that. That is 1.42 billion people as we are talking right now. And the competition for space is rampant. Elephants have already lost 80% of their space. And that is because people are encroaching into the forest. They're extracting all of the natural resources that belong to elephants. Elephants are left with nothing. They come outside into the villages in search of food and water, these famished, thirsty elephants. And then that spurs human-elephant conflict. So it's a lose-lose situation with tragedies for elephants and humans. And so we are now consulting with many, many villages living on the forest fringes and saying, hey, how about if we worked collectively?

49:43 We distributed 5,000 flashlights, simple things like that. 5,000 flashlights. Because when the tea plantation workers return home, they don't even, there are no streetlights, you know? And they actually by mistake run into elephants or wildlife. But when they have flashlights, even snake bites have reduced because the snakes are also alerted. And then of course, yeah, it's a win -win situation. So when you think of India, you think of elephants. Doesn't the Indian government realise that elephants are a national treasure? Why isn't the Indian government itself making these wildlife corridors?

50:30 I mean, this is, you're taking it on, but oh my gosh, this should be something that the government of India does. Yeah. And when you ask them, they will say we are doing what we can. And yet it's the lackadaisical approach, the apathy, the complicity, the negligence. I mean, okay, so in just being ruthlessly honest with you, some of the forest officers who are on the ground, they're not even qualified. They just don't even know what the hell they're doing there. They're not educated. Some of them are totally unwilling to be educated. Okay, but I gotta jump in here.

51:11 I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about buying the land. Government, I know. I know. Buying the vast swaths of land because they're not going to do that. Development is their main focus. Mining is rampant across Odisha. That's why we are buying it. Yes, of course, they can easily buy. How much for an acre? How much does it cost? Because people like to break it down. When you see successful organisations, they say buy an acre or buy half an acre or buy this. In other words, yeah. It varies depending on the place, but the place where we are buying right now, it is approximately $6,000 per acre, which is not a lot, $6,000 per acre.

52:01 And it's on the forest fringes. And of course, in addition to that, we need to raise funds for planting, sapling, for creating water holes. All those things, they come up over and over on top of the land purchase, right? So yeah, so that's- We are reaching the end of our conversation, but we could talk for hours. One other thing Sangeeta is doing, which I find fascinating is, unfortunately, elephants fall into wells. And she is creating these barriers around the well so that the elephants don't walk in and fall. So you are doing so much, and it's all so practical, and it's all so cost -effective.

52:45 I would urge everybody, I interviewed so many organisations, I have honestly never seen an organisation that has so many low-cost, practical ways to make a big difference. And then once they're successful in India, they can be expanded to Africa, to Latin America, to other places. Not that there's elephants in Latin America, but they can be expanded to other regions, other animals, other species. This is really important work you're doing. So I urge everybody, donate to vfaes.org, vfaes.org.

53:29 And let's be part of the solution. I want to thank you so much, Sangeeta, for being a part of this. It's just so wonderful. Well, thank you for having me, and thank you for taking the time to explain and dig into all of the details. I mean, there's none like you. So thank you so much for the opportunity, for being a voice for our beautiful elephants. I really appreciate it. Lindsay, thank you also for joining and for your beautiful, brilliant questions. Thank you. Yes, Lindsay, you did an incredible job. She was our director today and always doing a great job. All right, everybody, you've seen the solution.

54:09 Let's go do it. Thank you so much. See you next time. Thank you. Bye, guys. Bye.