UnchainedTV: How To End Injustice Everywhere!

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Here's your host, Jane Velez Mitchell.

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We are so excited and honoured to have

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Dr. Melanie Joy on Unchained TV, the famed

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social psychologist and best-selling author talking about

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that new book, How to End Injustice Everywhere.

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Let's do it.

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Dr. Joy is an internationally recognised speaker who

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wows her audiences and has written many other

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books, including my fave, Why We Love Dogs,

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Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows, which was a

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huge bestseller.

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She's got so many other books under her

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vegan belt, but today we are talking about

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her very latest.

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I love this book, Dr. Joy, How to

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End Injustice Everywhere.

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I think it's something we all strive for.

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You said you wrote this book in order

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to give people who are trying to end

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injustice everywhere, the information and the tools they

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need to be more effective.

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So for example, how does your book help

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animal activists become more effective?

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Yeah, well, first of all, thank you, Jane,

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and thank you for that incredibly warm welcome

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as always.

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And I just, I love talking to you

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and I'm so happy to be here.

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So yeah, I wrote the book for several

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reasons.

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So one, I wanted to shed light on

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the common structure of all unjust systems, as

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well as the common mentality, most importantly, that

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drives these unjust systems.

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So unjust systems like racism, patriarchy, speciesism, carnism,

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environmental degradation, and so on.

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So one of the goals of the book

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is to help advocates from all justice movements,

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right?

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Who are working to end any injustice to

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really understand the interconnectedness of all injustices, because

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with this understanding, then advocates for humans, animals,

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or the environment are better able to support

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each other's efforts rather than to get in

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the way of each other's efforts.

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And also to unify across causes.

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And another goal is to help those who

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are working for progressive causes like vegans, more

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effectively advocate to others, to really attract supporters

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to whatever cause they're working for.

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And this will become clear when we talk

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a little bit, but a little bit later,

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but the same mentality that, you know, drives

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all forms of injustice is the mentality that

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also drives people away from our cause when

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we're not advocating effectively.

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And finally, I wanted to provide practical tools

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to help advocates reduce infighting and build more

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resilient and impactful groups and movements for justice.

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And infighting is, I know we'll have time

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to talk about this today, but it is

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bleeding a tremendous amount, a massive amount of

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resources from the vegan movement.

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And so, you know, these are just a

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few of the ways that I feel the

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book can help us to be more effective

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at helping to end animal exploitation.

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Yes, and we just asked you to move

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your mic a little bit away from the

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camera so we can see you.

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Oh, can you see that now?

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There we go, perfect, absolutely perfect.

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You know, you mentioned the infighting and I

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have been a follower of yours for so

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long.

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And I saw you at the International Animal

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Rights Conference in Luxembourg way back in 2018

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and you spoke about this.

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So let's play a little clip and then

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we're gonna talk about that on the other

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side.

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How are you?

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I know it's amazing to be here in

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a sea of vegans, a room full, a

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large room completely packed with people working to

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make the world a better place for animals.

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Nothing inspires me more.

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So thank you so much.

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And I love having the opportunity to stand

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up in front of a group of vegans

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who are often so committed and working so

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hard to make the world a better place

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for animals and being able to share good

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news like how the vegan movement is growing

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exponentially all over the world, which it is.

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The movement is growing all over the world

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and that's amazing.

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Today, I'm actually gonna talk about something else

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that's growing and it's growing within the vegan

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movement.

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And this is a virus of sorts.

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It is a virus that is contagious.

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It is debilitating and it can be potentially

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even deadly.

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But in this, there is also good news

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because when we recognise this virus, then with

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awareness of this virus, then we're in a

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position to prevent it from spreading, to reverse

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its course and ultimately to heal our movement.

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And the virus I'm talking about today is

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toxic communication among vegans.

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Now, before I talk about toxic communication and

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define it, what exactly it is, I'm gonna

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just show you a few examples.

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Can you see this to read yourselves?

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Is it people in the back, large enough

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on the screen?

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Okay, I had a lot of examples to

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choose from, unfortunately, and just chose four of

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them to give you a sense of some

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of the problems that we're talking about today.

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And I'm just curious before moving on, how

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many of you have witnessed toxic communication?

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This is vegan to vegan.

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Okay, I didn't even finish the question and

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all the hands went up.

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So you know what I'm talking about.

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So there you were in 2018, an incredible

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speech, but yet here we are in 2024,

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we're still talking about infighting.

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So tell us a little bit about the

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problem with infighting and what's behind it.

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Well, that's a big question and a really,

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really important question.

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So infighting is, so I was talking then

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specifically about toxic communication, which is the primary

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way that infighting is actually manifested or expressed.

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Infighting, I spent about a year and a

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half doing a deep dive into all things

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infighting.

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And the last chapter of my book, How

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to End Injustice Everywhere is about infighting.

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And I really wanted to understand, number one,

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like what exactly is infighting?

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How would we even define it?

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Everybody that I talked to in the movement

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and people from other justice movements as well

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were very, very concerned and everybody knew that

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this was a big problem, but nobody knew

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what was causing it and how to end

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it.

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So I wanted to look at the causes

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of infighting, the consequences, how much financially is

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this actually costing the movement?

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How much is it costing the movement in

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other ways as well?

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And most importantly, what the tools would be,

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what are some practical tools that people, vegans

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in this case, could become like immediately use

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so that they could become proactive in helping

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to end the problem.

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And this is what led me to write

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the final chapter of How to End Injustice.

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And it also is what led me to

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establish infighting.org, which is our new website.

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And this is a very, very comprehensive website.

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And basically, infighting is fighting.

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It's no different from what we could call

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outfighting.

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It's like any kind of fighting, except it's

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directed toward members of one's own group.

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And the very same mentality that causes us

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to fight others outside of the movement is

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the mentality that causes us to fight each

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other within the movement.

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It's also the mentality that causes us to

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communicate with people we're reaching out to in

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a way that drives them away from our

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movement.

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And it's the same mentality I write about

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in the book, How to End Injustice Everywhere,

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that actually drives injustices and lots and lots

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of problems in our lives.

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So, I mean, the good news is that

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really understanding this mentality and knowing the tools

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of how to work to shift it can

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make a tremendous difference, not only in our

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activism, but also in our movement and also

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in our personal lives and beyond.

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Well, I have to tell you, I have

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a whole bunch of questions for you, but

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so does our audience.

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We've got callers on hold.

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Nilo Farr in Dallas, Texas, your question or

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thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.

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Hi, it's such a pleasure.

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One of the major risks in the animal

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movement is rights versus welfare.

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It's probable that the welfarists have added gains

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to big ag under the guise of the

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humane stamp, e.g. K3 free-range, pasture

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-raised, organic, grass-raised, certified humane, and animal

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welfare approved.

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What are the chances of attracting welfarists to

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abolitionist animal rights after reading the book?

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Wow, that is quite a question.

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Take it away.

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Well, you know, in the book, I do,

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let's say on the website, I actually address

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this more because as I said in the

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book, the final chapter of the book is

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on infighting, but the entire website is dedicated

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to infighting.

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And if we were to basically take all

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of the pages of the website and turn

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it into a book, it would be close

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to the length of the book itself.

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So there's a lot of information on there.

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And what I wanna say is that infighting

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very often takes, it takes various forms, but

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there are two areas in particular that vegans

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tend to argue about the most when we're

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talking about infighting on the movement-wide level,

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not within teams and organisations, which is another

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form of infighting, which we can talk about

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later.

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The focus tends to be on ideology.

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What does it mean to be vegan?

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How should we be vegan or define being

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vegan?

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And also on the second one is on

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strategy.

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How do we reach the goal of creating

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more vegan world?

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And so we do see this sort of

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this argument of what some people refer to

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as welfare versus abolition, which is not everybody

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uses that terminology, but as being sort of

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prominent in the global discussion when people think

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about infighting.

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And in my book, I don't talk about,

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break down the specific nuances and differences between

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different sort of groups within a movement because

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the problem is not necessarily, the problem that

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I'm addressing is not our differences.

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People in all movements have differences because people

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are different and people have different ideas about

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how to interpret and practise their own ideology.

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So Christians and Democrats and Republicans and Marxists

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and so on, they all have differences in

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how they understand and interpret their respective ideologies.

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The problem is not our differences, it's how

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we relate to and communicate about our differences.

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We'll never reach a point, in my opinion,

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where we really have the kind of robust

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understanding and strategic decision-making that we need

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if we are not able to reflect on

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our own opinions and our own choices and

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communicate about our opinions and choices and our

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differences in a way that helps deepen our

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understanding.

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Right now, when we have differences from each

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other, it can be the whole idea of

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vegans being different from each other can be

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very triggering.

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And the idea, the way that we approach

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our differences is very often to attack each

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other and to say, I'm right, you're wrong,

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00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:45,940
and my goal is to get you to

270
00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:47,120
be more like I am.

271
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,240
And so it's really, really important that we

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learn how to take a different approach to

273
00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,920
communication with each other so that we can

274
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:55,720
learn from each other.

275
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:56,680
Absolutely.

276
00:11:57,020 --> 00:11:58,500
Well, we've got more calls.

277
00:11:59,060 --> 00:12:01,300
Paige in Los Angeles, your question or thought

278
00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:02,480
for Dr. Melanie Joy.

279
00:12:04,060 --> 00:12:05,900
Hello, thank you for your work.

280
00:12:05,980 --> 00:12:08,060
It's been so insightful along the way.

281
00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:10,160
Absolutely, my goodness.

282
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,760
Beyond Beliefs has saved my marriage.

283
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,060
Let me just put that in there.

284
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,680
How would you say, and I know I

285
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:18,860
need to get the book and read the

286
00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:21,360
book, but how would you say then to

287
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,400
start, like I'm friends with a lot of

288
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,400
folks who are just coming into the animal

289
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,260
rights space and are curious and, you know,

290
00:12:31,820 --> 00:12:33,480
open, right?

291
00:12:33,820 --> 00:12:35,360
And there's many of us that have been

292
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:36,880
around for a while that we're a little

293
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:37,720
bit more closed.

294
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,320
How would you say to merge those two

295
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,420
mindsets, so to speak?

296
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,320
When you say merge those two mindsets, what

297
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,000
two mindsets are you referring to?

298
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:49,720
Open and closed.

299
00:12:51,540 --> 00:12:53,080
I mean, how do you find a middle

300
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,460
ground without painting the new energy of new

301
00:12:57,460 --> 00:13:00,440
people with maybe some old thought patterns?

302
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:03,720
So you mean, how do you approach, so

303
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,420
you have new people coming into the, you're

304
00:13:06,420 --> 00:13:09,680
saying, can you, sorry, rephrase your question because

305
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:11,860
I'm not sure exactly what- Well, I

306
00:13:11,860 --> 00:13:14,840
find myself not wanting to bring up the

307
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,580
old and just stay forward thinking, but I

308
00:13:18,580 --> 00:13:21,540
do find myself holding my tongue to say,

309
00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:23,620
oh, well, there's been some challenges along the

310
00:13:23,620 --> 00:13:23,900
way.

311
00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:26,980
In other words, how do I, I guess

312
00:13:26,980 --> 00:13:27,920
what I'm saying is how do I stay

313
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,560
open without, but also educating?

314
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:32,300
Does that make sense?

315
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,980
Maybe I'm not- What I'm hearing, Gauge,

316
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:36,740
is that you do a lot of advocacy

317
00:13:36,740 --> 00:13:38,600
work and you bring people into the movement.

318
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,420
And a lot of times they don't really

319
00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:41,780
know all the facts.

320
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,040
Like I've worked with people who are vegan

321
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,000
but have no idea of the way animals

322
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:46,720
are being tortured.

323
00:13:46,860 --> 00:13:49,240
And when you show them the image, they're

324
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,280
shocked beyond comprehension.

325
00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:53,520
I'm like, yeah, we're seeing this every day.

326
00:13:53,580 --> 00:13:55,560
There's sort of this disconnect between people who've

327
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:58,180
been deeply entrenched and those who are just

328
00:13:58,180 --> 00:14:00,060
coming to the movement and they have two

329
00:14:00,060 --> 00:14:01,380
totally different perspectives.

330
00:14:01,380 --> 00:14:05,620
Maybe that kind of summarises what you're getting

331
00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:06,540
at.

332
00:14:08,410 --> 00:14:10,070
Okay, we'll go with that.

333
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:13,050
So you want to help educate, are you

334
00:14:13,050 --> 00:14:15,030
saying you want to help educate them without

335
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:16,830
feeling like you're indoctrinating them?

336
00:14:18,430 --> 00:14:21,370
Exactly, yes, yes, exactly.

337
00:14:21,690 --> 00:14:24,770
And pushing all my agenda on someone to

338
00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:26,390
say like, oh, do it this way, or,

339
00:14:26,570 --> 00:14:29,350
you know, and just really staying open to

340
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:30,950
letting them find their own processes.

341
00:14:30,950 --> 00:14:32,390
And yet we have so much work to

342
00:14:32,390 --> 00:14:33,050
do.

343
00:14:33,370 --> 00:14:36,290
Right, I mean, there's never any harm in

344
00:14:36,290 --> 00:14:39,250
sharing your perspective as long as it's, you

345
00:14:39,250 --> 00:14:41,570
know, very clear that you're simply sharing your

346
00:14:41,570 --> 00:14:43,010
perspective if they want it.

347
00:14:43,070 --> 00:14:44,410
I mean, you can even ask them, you

348
00:14:44,410 --> 00:14:46,130
can say you've been in the movement for

349
00:14:46,130 --> 00:14:48,050
so much longer, they might be really grateful

350
00:14:48,050 --> 00:14:48,890
for your mentorship.

351
00:14:49,670 --> 00:14:52,730
And, you know, just coming at the conversation

352
00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:57,610
without being open to their choosing to do

353
00:14:57,610 --> 00:14:58,610
things a different way.

354
00:14:58,610 --> 00:15:00,850
You know, as long as you have that

355
00:15:00,850 --> 00:15:03,710
openness inside of you, if you approach them

356
00:15:03,710 --> 00:15:06,010
and say, oh, you know, I remember when,

357
00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:08,570
you know, I tried doing such and such

358
00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:10,310
this way and I found that it actually

359
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:11,550
is a lot more effective.

360
00:15:12,690 --> 00:15:14,890
And share your experience.

361
00:15:15,170 --> 00:15:17,250
If you share your story, right?

362
00:15:17,450 --> 00:15:19,750
Oh, I tried this, or I saw somebody

363
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:21,270
do this and it was really effective.

364
00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:23,330
Nobody can make your story wrong.

365
00:15:23,370 --> 00:15:25,530
And then you're not sort of talking at

366
00:15:25,530 --> 00:15:27,230
somebody, but you're sharing your experience.

367
00:15:27,230 --> 00:15:29,010
And you can also ask them questions, you

368
00:15:29,010 --> 00:15:30,830
know, like, is it helpful for you?

369
00:15:30,910 --> 00:15:31,750
How can I help you?

370
00:15:31,830 --> 00:15:33,610
How can I support you in this process?

371
00:15:34,090 --> 00:15:35,870
I wanna jump in and go to the

372
00:15:35,870 --> 00:15:36,350
next caller.

373
00:15:36,630 --> 00:15:38,630
We've got an unusual situation here.

374
00:15:38,950 --> 00:15:41,130
The lines are busy because so many people

375
00:15:41,130 --> 00:15:42,550
are calling in to ask questions.

376
00:15:42,970 --> 00:15:44,790
That's what I call a high class problem.

377
00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:47,970
All right, Michael in Los Angeles, your question

378
00:15:47,970 --> 00:15:49,450
or thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.

379
00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:52,350
Yes, hi, Dr. Joy.

380
00:15:53,210 --> 00:15:55,290
You know, as an animal rights activist, I

381
00:15:55,290 --> 00:15:59,310
really struggle with intersectionality because I see humans

382
00:15:59,310 --> 00:16:02,310
as the oppressors and animals as the innocent

383
00:16:02,310 --> 00:16:02,810
victims.

384
00:16:03,690 --> 00:16:06,170
So what advice can you give me to

385
00:16:06,170 --> 00:16:08,710
reconcile this conflict that I feel?

386
00:16:08,950 --> 00:16:09,350
Thank you.

387
00:16:10,070 --> 00:16:12,550
Yeah, wow, that's a really great question.

388
00:16:12,670 --> 00:16:14,730
And I really appreciate your openness.

389
00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:18,570
I think that, you know, awareness is really

390
00:16:18,570 --> 00:16:19,110
key.

391
00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:21,730
Do you, if you, I think if you

392
00:16:21,730 --> 00:16:27,350
have a deep enough understanding of intersection, what's

393
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:30,230
sometimes referred to as intersectionality, you know, or

394
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:35,050
I would say the interconnectedness of oppressions, human

395
00:16:35,050 --> 00:16:37,110
and non-human oppression, we can talk about

396
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:37,410
here.

397
00:16:38,510 --> 00:16:41,530
I think that that will help you to

398
00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:45,670
recognise the ways in which these, what you

399
00:16:45,670 --> 00:16:51,110
might see as incompatible actually are fundamentally unified

400
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:51,990
in a sense.

401
00:16:51,990 --> 00:16:54,650
I actually wrote a book called The Vegan

402
00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:57,470
Matrix and the goal of The Vegan Matrix

403
00:16:57,470 --> 00:16:59,470
is a really small, skinny book.

404
00:17:00,050 --> 00:17:02,230
The goal of The Vegan Matrix was for

405
00:17:02,230 --> 00:17:05,770
exactly this purpose, to provide sort of an

406
00:17:05,770 --> 00:17:10,569
overview of the interconnectedness of oppressions and why

407
00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:12,890
this is important for anybody who is working

408
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:16,910
for animal liberation, you know, particularly through veganism,

409
00:17:16,950 --> 00:17:18,329
to be aware of.

410
00:17:19,550 --> 00:17:22,589
I'm gonna go to the next caller, Lindsay

411
00:17:22,589 --> 00:17:24,510
in Woodland Hills, your question or thought for

412
00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:25,510
Dr. Melanie Joy.

413
00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:31,190
Well, Dr. Joy, I am so pleased to

414
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:34,770
have come across your work and your two

415
00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:37,790
books, The Vegan Matrix and How to End

416
00:17:37,790 --> 00:17:38,970
Injustice Everywhere.

417
00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:42,690
I can see the second book applying to

418
00:17:42,690 --> 00:17:49,330
politics, applying to corporate infrastructure and dynamics and

419
00:17:49,330 --> 00:17:51,210
I have so many friends that are telling

420
00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:55,830
me, basically everyone feels like there is so

421
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:57,630
much injustice going on in the world.

422
00:17:58,170 --> 00:18:00,330
And I think that this can be applied

423
00:18:00,330 --> 00:18:01,150
in so many ways.

424
00:18:01,590 --> 00:18:02,610
That's my one comment.

425
00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:04,590
The other thing I wanna say is, I

426
00:18:04,590 --> 00:18:06,490
think this is a great tool for people

427
00:18:06,490 --> 00:18:08,230
that are just becoming vegan.

428
00:18:08,430 --> 00:18:11,650
I'm coaching someone, just a friend that wants

429
00:18:11,650 --> 00:18:14,150
to become vegan and I can see this

430
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:18,010
person's coming from a very meat eating background

431
00:18:18,010 --> 00:18:20,530
where this is like a whole paradigm shift.

432
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:23,650
And I just think that everybody is different

433
00:18:23,650 --> 00:18:26,750
and each person when you're coaching or helping

434
00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:28,790
has to be approached in a very special

435
00:18:28,790 --> 00:18:29,010
way.

436
00:18:29,050 --> 00:18:30,510
And I think this book will be very

437
00:18:30,510 --> 00:18:30,850
helpful.

438
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:32,950
I wanna thank you, thank you very so

439
00:18:32,950 --> 00:18:33,270
much.

440
00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:34,090
Wow.

441
00:18:34,270 --> 00:18:35,950
Thank you so much for that.

442
00:18:36,210 --> 00:18:36,830
Such praise.

443
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:39,210
We're gonna go to Kush in Texas, your

444
00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:41,190
question or thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.

445
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:44,800
Kush?

446
00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:47,000
Thanks for taking my, yeah, can you hear

447
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:47,120
me?

448
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:47,600
Yeah.

449
00:18:48,620 --> 00:18:49,860
Thanks for taking my call.

450
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,520
And before I ask my question, I really

451
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,060
thank Dr. Melanie Joy for bringing up this

452
00:18:57,060 --> 00:18:59,080
new book and I'm a huge fan of

453
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,420
her literary work.

454
00:19:01,180 --> 00:19:02,100
So thanks again.

455
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,460
My question is how can an awareness of

456
00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:08,440
the psychological mechanisms that contribute to infighting within

457
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:13,700
social justice movements, including veganism, help activists foster

458
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:17,560
a more inclusive and collaborative environment to collectively

459
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,480
address various forms of operation?

460
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,240
Yeah, great.

461
00:19:22,340 --> 00:19:23,340
Thank you so much.

462
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,140
And that's a great question.

463
00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:27,880
And that's what we're here to talk about

464
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,140
tonight, which is really understanding.

465
00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:32,100
And I know once we take a few

466
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:34,480
calls, we can start to unpack this and

467
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,580
talk about this mentality that drives all forms

468
00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:38,100
of injustice.

469
00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:42,240
Because when you understand this mentality, what I

470
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,720
call this non-relational mentality, it's at the

471
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,160
core of all injustices, all forms of injustice.

472
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,060
And it's also what drives infighting.

473
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:51,640
And it's also what drives people away from

474
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:52,160
our message.

475
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,680
When you understand this mentality and how it

476
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,500
gets manifested, and when you have access to

477
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,400
the tools to shift this way of thinking

478
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:06,240
and build more effective communications, so much changes.

479
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:10,080
You can become really proactive in helping to

480
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,120
heal your groups and your movements and much

481
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:16,740
more effectively communicate the vegan message the way

482
00:20:16,740 --> 00:20:18,100
that it's intended to be heard.

483
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,120
And I think this is the kind of

484
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:22,820
thing, the reason I wrote this book for

485
00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:26,440
all activists, not just vegan activists, is because

486
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,480
all of us struggle to communicate in a

487
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,060
way that really increases the chances that our

488
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:34,320
message will be heard the way that we

489
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,060
intend it to be.

490
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,760
Okay, we have three more, two more callers,

491
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:39,980
and then we'll cut off the calls.

492
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:43,360
Karen in Venice, California, your question or thought

493
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:44,700
for Dr. Melanie Joy.

494
00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:49,660
First of all, I'd like to say that

495
00:20:49,660 --> 00:20:51,200
I'm looking forward to reading your books.

496
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,200
I am really excited about that.

497
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,920
My question is, I know there are many

498
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,880
different motivations for infighting, but what about the

499
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,520
jealousy factor that perhaps one group is, one

500
00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,460
person is perhaps, they don't even realise it,

501
00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:12,600
actually just jealous of perhaps the other group

502
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,420
is getting a lot more funding or exposure.

503
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,100
Is that one of, I'm just curious, do

504
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:21,360
you think that that is also one of

505
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:22,520
the causes of the infighting?

506
00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:24,940
I mean, I wouldn't rule it out because

507
00:21:24,940 --> 00:21:27,400
vegans are people and people fight for a

508
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,660
whole variety of reasons and people fight each

509
00:21:29,660 --> 00:21:32,900
other because they're jealous and they have vendettas.

510
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,680
So that surely is within the realm of

511
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:36,200
possibility.

512
00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:40,120
When I looked at the really key causes

513
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:42,300
of infighting, I had a list of eight

514
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:44,240
of them actually that wasn't in the top

515
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:44,640
eight.

516
00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:46,700
And we can talk about maybe the top

517
00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:51,700
three or so tonight, but certainly that's possible.

518
00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:53,440
And I'm sure that that has happened and

519
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:54,720
does happen in some places.

520
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,980
All right, now we're gonna go to Tiffany.

521
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,900
Your question or thought for Dr. Melanie Joy.

522
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,220
Yes, hi, I'm coming from Los Angeles and

523
00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:08,440
I'm fairly new to the movement.

524
00:22:08,580 --> 00:22:11,880
I'm very excited to order your books ASAP.

525
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,120
And I just had a question.

526
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,000
I have a lot of friends recommending nonviolent

527
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,340
communication courses to me.

528
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,960
Do you have any thoughts on that or

529
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,200
any ideas about?

530
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:27,700
Yeah, I would say, so nonviolent communication, what

531
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:30,440
I talk about in my books on what

532
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,620
I just refer to as effective more generically

533
00:22:32,620 --> 00:22:35,920
as effective communication is based on the principles

534
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,320
of nonviolent communication.

535
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,380
I prefer the work of the people who

536
00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:45,240
put down, it's Matthew McCain, his colleagues who

537
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,340
created an approach to nonviolent communication that's a

538
00:22:48,340 --> 00:22:51,320
little bit more, I think, a little bit

539
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,320
more practical and a little bit less, a

540
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,760
little bit more practical, easier to apply and

541
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,820
applicable to all different circumstances than I believe

542
00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:04,000
that the nonviolent communication is.

543
00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:07,080
There's less, nonviolent communication has a strong focus

544
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,640
on needs and personal needs underlying a communication.

545
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,620
And I think that, especially if we're talking

546
00:23:13,620 --> 00:23:15,920
about advocacy and some of the kinds of

547
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,580
conversations that we'll be talking about tonight, learning

548
00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:23,160
the principles of effective communication is, I think,

549
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,540
going, taking a course in nonviolent communication can

550
00:23:25,540 --> 00:23:27,200
never hurt because it's a great tool.

551
00:23:27,940 --> 00:23:31,640
And it's not necessarily a necessity if you

552
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,120
really want to improve your communication.

553
00:23:33,860 --> 00:23:35,100
Okay, don't be mad.

554
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,560
We have two more and then we're cutting

555
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:37,020
it off.

556
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:38,420
Absolutely last.

557
00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:42,060
So Jose, quick question from Arlington, Texas.

558
00:23:44,850 --> 00:23:46,590
Hi, can you hear me?

559
00:23:46,850 --> 00:23:47,110
Yep.

560
00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:49,750
Okay, well, first off, I would just wanna

561
00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:51,550
say, thank you, Dr. Mallon-Joy for all

562
00:23:51,550 --> 00:23:54,370
your incredible work in the animal rights movement.

563
00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:57,050
And my question for you would be, if

564
00:23:57,050 --> 00:23:58,390
you had to like write a part two

565
00:23:58,390 --> 00:24:00,750
to your new book, what topics would you

566
00:24:00,750 --> 00:24:02,890
dive deeper into or like expand upon?

567
00:24:04,930 --> 00:24:06,530
Ah, if I had to write a part

568
00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:08,370
two, well, I did kind of write a

569
00:24:08,370 --> 00:24:10,550
part two, which was infighting.

570
00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:16,710
What became the infighting.org website was actually

571
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:19,150
written in the format of what could have

572
00:24:19,150 --> 00:24:19,810
become a book.

573
00:24:20,090 --> 00:24:21,210
And as I said, it was as long

574
00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:21,690
as a book.

575
00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:25,510
I decided that it was better to put

576
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:26,690
that in the format of a website.

577
00:24:27,390 --> 00:24:30,190
So I feel that that is a really,

578
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:34,550
really critical issue and deserves to be, I

579
00:24:34,550 --> 00:24:36,650
think for this book, one chapter is fine,

580
00:24:36,670 --> 00:24:38,710
but it needed a lot more space than

581
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:40,530
one chapter gave it space for.

582
00:24:40,690 --> 00:24:42,690
Honestly, I think it's hit a nerve because

583
00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:44,930
we've never had quite this many callers.

584
00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:46,610
And I think people are really interested in

585
00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:46,950
the subject.

586
00:24:47,550 --> 00:24:50,770
Last caller, Jeff in Los Angeles.

587
00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:52,870
Calling from Los Angeles, then we'll cut it

588
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:53,030
off.

589
00:24:53,110 --> 00:24:54,090
Jeff, your question or thought?

590
00:24:55,170 --> 00:25:00,110
Hey, Jane and Dr. Joy, thanks for taking

591
00:25:00,110 --> 00:25:00,730
my call.

592
00:25:01,510 --> 00:25:05,030
So my question is, I've observed a lot

593
00:25:05,030 --> 00:25:07,690
of something related to infighting, but it's about

594
00:25:07,690 --> 00:25:14,190
dismissing some protests and some activity in favour

595
00:25:14,190 --> 00:25:14,790
of others.

596
00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:18,030
And it's, in social media, this is so

597
00:25:18,030 --> 00:25:18,930
prevalent.

598
00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:20,690
Like, oh, well, why did you do that?

599
00:25:20,730 --> 00:25:23,790
Who cares about Starbucks charging a few dollars

600
00:25:23,790 --> 00:25:25,570
a few cents more, right?

601
00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:29,670
And all, I feel all protests, all of

602
00:25:29,670 --> 00:25:32,070
the activities that we take on are important.

603
00:25:32,790 --> 00:25:35,990
And how do we respond to those things?

604
00:25:37,890 --> 00:25:39,530
Right, I mean, it's like I said earlier,

605
00:25:39,790 --> 00:25:42,150
it's not our differences, it's not our differences,

606
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:44,490
it's how we relate to our differences that

607
00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:44,910
matters.

608
00:25:45,230 --> 00:25:48,270
And I mean, it is true that not

609
00:25:48,270 --> 00:25:51,830
all strategies are equally powerful and impactful.

610
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:55,250
And we are in a race against time.

611
00:25:55,450 --> 00:25:57,570
And we do, I think, have a responsibility

612
00:25:58,250 --> 00:26:01,770
to do our very best to choose the

613
00:26:01,770 --> 00:26:04,910
tactics, activities, and strategies that are gonna have

614
00:26:04,910 --> 00:26:07,730
the most impact and to reevaluate those and

615
00:26:07,730 --> 00:26:10,510
to learn from others who are giving us

616
00:26:10,510 --> 00:26:11,450
feedback about those.

617
00:26:11,730 --> 00:26:13,890
So, and we need to be able to

618
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:14,690
talk about this.

619
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:17,850
So sharing feedback, there is a way to

620
00:26:17,850 --> 00:26:21,050
share feedback without triggering people.

621
00:26:21,050 --> 00:26:24,090
And that's what we'll talk about tonight.

622
00:26:24,370 --> 00:26:26,550
Rather than diving into it here, I'll talk

623
00:26:26,550 --> 00:26:29,990
about it with, we have some, I'll talk

624
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:31,550
about that with Jane in a couple of

625
00:26:31,550 --> 00:26:31,850
minutes.

626
00:26:31,850 --> 00:26:36,090
But there are methods and strategies for sharing

627
00:26:36,090 --> 00:26:38,330
your opinion in a way that reduces the

628
00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:39,950
chances that the other person will get defensive

629
00:26:39,950 --> 00:26:41,930
and increases the chances that they'll be open

630
00:26:41,930 --> 00:26:43,090
and receptive to your message.

631
00:26:43,350 --> 00:26:45,410
And this is really what I think all

632
00:26:45,410 --> 00:26:47,270
of us need to be learning in the

633
00:26:47,270 --> 00:26:47,570
movement.

634
00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:51,210
Well, I'd like to end with a positive

635
00:26:51,210 --> 00:26:52,570
on this subject.

636
00:26:52,770 --> 00:26:53,790
Thank you for all the callers.

637
00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:57,410
I was at the UCLA VegFest this past

638
00:26:57,410 --> 00:27:00,350
week and it was a collaboration from a

639
00:27:00,350 --> 00:27:02,790
lot of groups, a lot of groups, vegan

640
00:27:02,790 --> 00:27:05,370
groups, animal rights groups at UCLA got together

641
00:27:05,370 --> 00:27:07,890
and pulled off this amazing UCLA VegFest.

642
00:27:08,050 --> 00:27:09,330
And as I was talking to one of

643
00:27:09,330 --> 00:27:11,850
the organisers, I was so inspired.

644
00:27:12,350 --> 00:27:14,570
Let's listen to what she had to say.

645
00:27:14,810 --> 00:27:16,590
What we have done this entire week, we

646
00:27:16,590 --> 00:27:17,210
have eight events.

647
00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:18,810
We put on this VegFest, it was only

648
00:27:18,810 --> 00:27:19,990
because we were working together.

649
00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:23,410
We combined our numbers, we found strength and

650
00:27:23,410 --> 00:27:24,350
unity and solidarity.

651
00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:28,130
And even though we all have very diverse

652
00:27:28,130 --> 00:27:30,130
backgrounds, we all wanna do different things within

653
00:27:30,130 --> 00:27:31,090
the animal rights field.

654
00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:33,130
We're here today because we're still ultimately working

655
00:27:33,130 --> 00:27:33,950
towards the same goal.

656
00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:36,370
And that allows us to collaborate and push

657
00:27:36,370 --> 00:27:38,930
our passions forward and bring incredible things like

658
00:27:38,930 --> 00:27:40,990
a VegFest to a college campus, which is

659
00:27:40,990 --> 00:27:43,770
something that not many people can dream of

660
00:27:43,770 --> 00:27:45,450
because it just takes so many hands and

661
00:27:45,450 --> 00:27:46,650
it's hard to find the time when you're

662
00:27:46,650 --> 00:27:48,050
a college student, but we were able to

663
00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:48,350
do it.

664
00:27:48,790 --> 00:27:51,670
And so you could teach the adults something.

665
00:27:52,850 --> 00:27:55,230
Yeah, I mean, I've been in the animal

666
00:27:55,230 --> 00:27:57,090
rights space for nearly four years now and

667
00:27:57,090 --> 00:27:58,590
I have noticed the infighting.

668
00:27:59,210 --> 00:28:01,250
And I think at times there's always different

669
00:28:01,250 --> 00:28:03,590
theories of change and people have different backgrounds

670
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:05,810
and reasons why they're here, but ultimately we're

671
00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:06,790
all here for the same reason.

672
00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:09,470
And I think we all wanna see at

673
00:28:09,470 --> 00:28:10,530
least a similar angle.

674
00:28:11,050 --> 00:28:13,310
And if we can collaborate to make large

675
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:14,990
impacts like this, I think we should at

676
00:28:14,990 --> 00:28:18,010
least consider it or explore it because there's

677
00:28:18,010 --> 00:28:18,890
no need to make enemies.

678
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:19,690
We're all allies.

679
00:28:19,770 --> 00:28:22,010
We're allies with the animals, with humans, with

680
00:28:22,010 --> 00:28:22,450
the environment.

681
00:28:22,910 --> 00:28:23,930
And so we should be allies with each

682
00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:24,450
other as well.

683
00:28:25,010 --> 00:28:26,950
When I heard that, I thought I have

684
00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:29,190
to play that clip when Dr. Melody Joy

685
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:30,570
is on, your thoughts.

686
00:28:31,390 --> 00:28:34,010
Yeah, I mean, and it's so inspiring and

687
00:28:34,010 --> 00:28:35,810
I just love seeing clips like that.

688
00:28:35,870 --> 00:28:37,530
I love seeing clips like that.

689
00:28:37,690 --> 00:28:40,050
And we all know, I mean, most of

690
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:41,750
us are very, very clear.

691
00:28:41,750 --> 00:28:43,830
We all have the same goal.

692
00:28:44,110 --> 00:28:46,910
We all need to be working together and

693
00:28:46,910 --> 00:28:49,110
we can be very clear about what we

694
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:51,870
need to do and what our goal actually

695
00:28:51,870 --> 00:28:52,230
is.

696
00:28:52,410 --> 00:28:55,870
And nevertheless have trouble working together in a

697
00:28:55,870 --> 00:28:57,790
way that's more collaborative, in a way that

698
00:28:57,790 --> 00:28:59,870
creates connections rather than divisions.

699
00:29:00,090 --> 00:29:03,270
And to be fair, I wanna say that

700
00:29:03,270 --> 00:29:05,250
I think that people in this movement are,

701
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:08,290
I am so deeply inspired by people in

702
00:29:08,290 --> 00:29:08,790
this movement.

703
00:29:08,990 --> 00:29:10,530
It's what gets me out of bed in

704
00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:10,850
the morning.

705
00:29:10,850 --> 00:29:13,650
It's what motivates me to do the work

706
00:29:13,650 --> 00:29:14,210
I do.

707
00:29:14,410 --> 00:29:17,950
It's seeing the compassion and the commitment and

708
00:29:17,950 --> 00:29:22,150
the tirelessness of people who just care so

709
00:29:22,150 --> 00:29:22,630
deeply.

710
00:29:23,310 --> 00:29:25,770
And a lot of people are doing just

711
00:29:25,770 --> 00:29:27,210
really, really great jobs.

712
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:29,010
So I'm not here to talk about how

713
00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:32,130
like, oh, we're all cannibalising ourselves, the movement's

714
00:29:32,130 --> 00:29:33,890
imploding, we're falling apart.

715
00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:36,290
I don't feel that that's true at all.

716
00:29:36,570 --> 00:29:39,750
I do, however, feel that there's a lot,

717
00:29:39,750 --> 00:29:43,210
a lot, a lot of saved resources and

718
00:29:43,210 --> 00:29:46,230
increased impact that we could have if we

719
00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:50,190
just became a little bit more aware of

720
00:29:50,190 --> 00:29:51,250
some of the things that we need to

721
00:29:51,250 --> 00:29:53,250
become aware of and built just a few

722
00:29:53,250 --> 00:29:55,270
of the tools or built out just a

723
00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:57,050
few of the tools that would really help

724
00:29:57,050 --> 00:30:01,070
us to reduce our, the infighting that does

725
00:30:01,070 --> 00:30:01,510
exist.

726
00:30:01,910 --> 00:30:03,570
And when I'm talking about infighting, I wanna

727
00:30:03,570 --> 00:30:05,610
just like kind of have a caveat here.

728
00:30:06,610 --> 00:30:09,450
And I should, I did say earlier, I

729
00:30:09,450 --> 00:30:11,770
was defining infighting earlier and saying it's the

730
00:30:11,770 --> 00:30:13,510
same as any kind of fighting except that

731
00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:16,110
it's directed against members of one's own group.

732
00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:19,610
Infighting can be expressed on the movement-wide

733
00:30:19,610 --> 00:30:21,430
level or you could see a lot in

734
00:30:21,430 --> 00:30:25,110
teams, like working within an organisation, for example,

735
00:30:25,250 --> 00:30:28,090
or people even in the same team.

736
00:30:28,450 --> 00:30:31,710
I wanna say that infighting is not in

737
00:30:31,710 --> 00:30:32,730
disagreeing.

738
00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:36,810
It's really important to appreciate that disagreements about

739
00:30:36,810 --> 00:30:39,910
various issues, right, from philosophy to strategy to

740
00:30:39,910 --> 00:30:43,110
values, they're absolutely essential for creating a diverse

741
00:30:43,110 --> 00:30:44,070
and impactful movement.

742
00:30:44,230 --> 00:30:46,670
Our differences are our power in many ways.

743
00:30:47,030 --> 00:30:50,190
Some of these disagreements are particularly important, like

744
00:30:50,190 --> 00:30:54,190
when women or BIPOC and so on challenge

745
00:30:54,190 --> 00:30:56,190
imbalances of power in the movement.

746
00:30:56,390 --> 00:30:58,690
So we need to be really careful not

747
00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:00,750
to refer to healthy challenges that are helping

748
00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:03,370
a movement evolve as infighting, or we could

749
00:31:03,370 --> 00:31:07,390
be weaponising the concept and silencing critical voices.

750
00:31:08,510 --> 00:31:10,630
Also, I wanna say that a lot of

751
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:13,710
what we call infighting is actually in bullying.

752
00:31:14,270 --> 00:31:15,830
A fight implies that there are two or

753
00:31:15,830 --> 00:31:18,750
more sides attacking each other, but often what

754
00:31:18,750 --> 00:31:22,130
we see happening is one individual, you know,

755
00:31:22,190 --> 00:31:25,190
using their platform or their power to attack

756
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:27,010
another, and this is a form of bullying.

757
00:31:27,090 --> 00:31:29,210
And there is, unfortunately, a lot of bullying

758
00:31:29,210 --> 00:31:29,810
in our movement.

759
00:31:30,350 --> 00:31:32,430
I think it might be useful for listeners

760
00:31:32,430 --> 00:31:34,830
if we sort of jump in so that

761
00:31:34,830 --> 00:31:36,950
people really understand when I talk about this

762
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:39,510
mentality that drives us to fight each other,

763
00:31:39,650 --> 00:31:41,510
so that I can actually explain what this

764
00:31:41,510 --> 00:31:43,650
mentality is and what it looks like.

765
00:31:44,030 --> 00:31:48,390
Yes, and you talk about non-relational communication.

766
00:31:49,210 --> 00:31:50,970
How do we know when we're being non

767
00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:52,490
-relational in communication?

768
00:31:53,150 --> 00:31:55,210
So why don't I talk about this non

769
00:31:55,210 --> 00:31:58,310
-relational way of being first, and then we

770
00:31:58,310 --> 00:32:00,770
can apply this and talk about communication.

771
00:32:01,330 --> 00:32:05,010
So, you know, when we look at, like,

772
00:32:05,010 --> 00:32:06,530
the problems in our world, when we look

773
00:32:06,530 --> 00:32:09,370
at the great injustices in our world and

774
00:32:09,370 --> 00:32:11,370
in our personal lives, you know, just being

775
00:32:11,370 --> 00:32:16,030
mistreated, domestic abuse even, or, you know, interpersonal

776
00:32:16,030 --> 00:32:19,490
fights that we have that are unjust, you

777
00:32:19,490 --> 00:32:23,350
know, toxic workplaces, we can see that these

778
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:25,630
problems share a common denominator, and this common

779
00:32:25,630 --> 00:32:28,090
denominator is relational dysfunction.

780
00:32:28,330 --> 00:32:30,950
It's dysfunctional ways of relating, right?

781
00:32:31,470 --> 00:32:36,330
Relating between social groups, between individuals, between humans

782
00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:38,830
and animals, you know, between humans and the

783
00:32:38,830 --> 00:32:40,590
environment, and so on and so forth.

784
00:32:41,090 --> 00:32:44,570
And so a common denominator in changing these

785
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:47,510
problems is what I call building relational literacy.

786
00:32:48,210 --> 00:32:52,130
Relational literacy is the understanding of an ability

787
00:32:52,130 --> 00:32:54,570
to practise healthy ways of relating.

788
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:58,430
Relational dysfunction is based on a particular mentality.

789
00:32:58,730 --> 00:33:00,410
It's the non-relational mentality.

790
00:33:00,410 --> 00:33:03,450
And relational literacy is based on the opposite

791
00:33:03,450 --> 00:33:03,950
mentality.

792
00:33:04,350 --> 00:33:05,990
And I'll explain what these are right now.

793
00:33:06,530 --> 00:33:09,310
And I'll explain it by explaining how, you

794
00:33:09,310 --> 00:33:12,210
know, this is the foundation of relational literacy,

795
00:33:12,370 --> 00:33:12,590
right?

796
00:33:12,730 --> 00:33:15,110
So relational literacy is made up of a

797
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:17,450
bunch of practises and tools, but they're all

798
00:33:17,450 --> 00:33:19,690
founded on this one, what I call the

799
00:33:19,690 --> 00:33:22,950
formula for healthy relating, this one key formula

800
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:23,870
for healthy relating.

801
00:33:24,990 --> 00:33:28,050
So, did you wanna say something?

802
00:33:28,050 --> 00:33:29,850
Yeah, no, I'm listening.

803
00:33:30,050 --> 00:33:32,890
I wanna know the formula for healthy relating,

804
00:33:33,130 --> 00:33:33,790
for sure.

805
00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:36,470
Okay, so I thought you were going to

806
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:37,110
ask me something.

807
00:33:37,450 --> 00:33:42,190
So in the formula for any interaction or

808
00:33:42,190 --> 00:33:44,570
any relationship, a relationship is really just a

809
00:33:44,570 --> 00:33:45,910
series of interactions, right?

810
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:50,750
So when it is healthy, we do two

811
00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:51,050
things.

812
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:54,130
We practise integrity and we honour dignity.

813
00:33:54,410 --> 00:33:56,150
And I'll unpack this so it's really clear.

814
00:33:56,730 --> 00:33:59,730
When we practise integrity, that means we basically

815
00:33:59,730 --> 00:34:02,470
practise the values, the core moral values of

816
00:34:02,470 --> 00:34:03,730
compassion and justice.

817
00:34:04,290 --> 00:34:06,210
Another way to say this is we practise

818
00:34:06,210 --> 00:34:06,850
respect.

819
00:34:07,290 --> 00:34:09,449
We treat the other individual the way that

820
00:34:09,449 --> 00:34:11,030
we would want to be treated if we

821
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:11,870
were in their position.

822
00:34:12,469 --> 00:34:16,010
When we honour someone's dignity, that means that

823
00:34:16,010 --> 00:34:18,190
we think of them, right?

824
00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:19,550
And also treat them.

825
00:34:19,650 --> 00:34:23,570
We think of them as being worthy of

826
00:34:23,570 --> 00:34:25,710
occupying space on the planet and of being

827
00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:27,030
treated with respect.

828
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:29,449
They are no less worthy than anyone else

829
00:34:29,449 --> 00:34:31,370
of being treated with respect.

830
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:35,090
So when we practise integrity and honour dignity,

831
00:34:35,489 --> 00:34:37,230
this leads to two things.

832
00:34:37,389 --> 00:34:39,270
This leads to us feeling a sense of

833
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:41,610
connection and a sense of security.

834
00:34:42,370 --> 00:34:44,570
And just to make this less abstract, I'd

835
00:34:44,570 --> 00:34:47,810
like everybody listening to just think of a

836
00:34:47,810 --> 00:34:49,889
relationship in your life that you consider a

837
00:34:49,889 --> 00:34:51,190
really good relationship.

838
00:34:52,190 --> 00:34:55,330
Chances are you trust that that other person

839
00:34:55,330 --> 00:34:56,730
practises integrity toward you.

840
00:34:56,850 --> 00:34:59,110
You trust that they treat you with respect.

841
00:34:59,350 --> 00:35:01,570
And you trust that they honour your dignity.

842
00:35:01,910 --> 00:35:04,550
They don't see you as less worthy of

843
00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:06,550
being treated with respect or of being here

844
00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:08,690
on this planet than they are or anyone

845
00:35:08,690 --> 00:35:09,090
else.

846
00:35:09,230 --> 00:35:11,990
And you probably feel secure and connected with

847
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:12,210
them.

848
00:35:13,810 --> 00:35:17,090
And the non-relational mentality is based on

849
00:35:17,090 --> 00:35:19,210
the opposite of this, right?

850
00:35:19,210 --> 00:35:23,550
Non-relational behaviours, which are a reflection of

851
00:35:23,550 --> 00:35:26,810
the non-relational mentality, reflect the opposite.

852
00:35:27,250 --> 00:35:31,410
It is when we violate integrity and harm

853
00:35:31,410 --> 00:35:31,890
dignity.

854
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:34,790
And this leads to a sense of disconnection

855
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:35,670
and insecurity.

856
00:35:36,430 --> 00:35:38,270
So again, think of a relationship in your

857
00:35:38,270 --> 00:35:41,010
life, a not good relationship in your life.

858
00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:42,750
Maybe it's with somebody you've never met before,

859
00:35:42,830 --> 00:35:44,690
like maybe even an online troll.

860
00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:49,510
Chances are you believe, you experience this other

861
00:35:49,510 --> 00:35:52,890
individual as violating integrity toward you, not treating

862
00:35:52,890 --> 00:35:56,970
you with respect and harming your dignity, perceiving

863
00:35:56,970 --> 00:35:59,810
you, seeing you as inferior, as less worthy

864
00:35:59,810 --> 00:36:02,330
than they are or of others of being

865
00:36:02,330 --> 00:36:03,350
treated with respect.

866
00:36:03,350 --> 00:36:06,510
And you feel disconnected from them and insecure

867
00:36:06,510 --> 00:36:08,710
with them, right?

868
00:36:08,850 --> 00:36:12,850
So relational mentality is healthy and functional.

869
00:36:12,850 --> 00:36:16,130
The non-relational mentality is unhealthy and dysfunctional.

870
00:36:16,250 --> 00:36:18,730
It's really, this is the bare, bare bones,

871
00:36:18,830 --> 00:36:19,070
right?

872
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:22,350
So any behaviour that you engage in, and

873
00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:24,530
this includes the communication.

874
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:27,890
Communication is the primary way we relate.

875
00:36:28,610 --> 00:36:31,690
Any behaviour that you engage in that reflects

876
00:36:31,690 --> 00:36:34,610
the formula is healthy and relational.

877
00:36:34,610 --> 00:36:37,670
And it's going to increase the chances that

878
00:36:37,670 --> 00:36:40,350
you feel connected, you learn from each other,

879
00:36:40,890 --> 00:36:42,690
and that you feel secure.

880
00:36:43,210 --> 00:36:46,270
And any behaviour that reflects the opposite of

881
00:36:46,270 --> 00:36:48,910
the formula, that's non-relational, is going to

882
00:36:48,910 --> 00:36:51,370
drive divisions and create defensiveness.

883
00:36:52,130 --> 00:36:54,110
And I'll say one other thing about this,

884
00:36:54,130 --> 00:36:55,570
and then we can talk about it probably

885
00:36:55,570 --> 00:36:57,030
a little bit further, but I wanna give

886
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:58,530
you a chance to jump in if you

887
00:36:58,530 --> 00:36:59,250
want to, Jane.

888
00:36:59,370 --> 00:37:03,570
But very often, right, the way that most

889
00:37:03,570 --> 00:37:07,270
inviting is expressed through communication, because communication is

890
00:37:07,270 --> 00:37:11,070
the primary way we relate, and the vast

891
00:37:11,070 --> 00:37:13,510
majority, if not all of that communication, is

892
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:14,090
shaming.

893
00:37:14,450 --> 00:37:19,810
The primary way that non-relational or dysfunctional,

894
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:23,030
we can call it toxic communication, is expressed

895
00:37:23,030 --> 00:37:24,370
is through shaming.

896
00:37:27,790 --> 00:37:30,870
Wow, I'm almost speechless, because I'm processing all

897
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:32,790
of this and trying to apply it to

898
00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:34,490
my own life, which I'm sure most of

899
00:37:34,490 --> 00:37:37,070
the listeners are doing as well, and the

900
00:37:37,070 --> 00:37:37,510
viewers.

901
00:37:38,110 --> 00:37:42,850
So how do you behave in a relational

902
00:37:42,850 --> 00:37:43,170
fashion?

903
00:37:44,090 --> 00:37:44,950
What are the tips?

904
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:48,770
Like, sometimes I certainly can catch myself almost

905
00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:51,630
mid-sentence or look back and go, oh,

906
00:37:51,850 --> 00:37:55,010
I thought at a recent protest against Adidas,

907
00:37:55,150 --> 00:37:56,550
somebody was trying to talk to me and

908
00:37:56,550 --> 00:37:58,750
I didn't have time, and I was alive.

909
00:37:59,210 --> 00:38:00,590
And then I thought about it later and

910
00:38:00,590 --> 00:38:02,090
thought, I feel bad.

911
00:38:02,370 --> 00:38:04,810
I wish I had at least stopped and

912
00:38:04,810 --> 00:38:06,610
talked to him a little bit because he

913
00:38:06,610 --> 00:38:09,030
wanted to connect with me, and I just

914
00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:11,730
didn't feel going live and being in this

915
00:38:11,730 --> 00:38:14,670
very chaotic situation that I could chat with

916
00:38:14,670 --> 00:38:15,450
him at that moment.

917
00:38:16,090 --> 00:38:18,490
So I was non-relational with him.

918
00:38:18,990 --> 00:38:20,570
And of course they say there's no mess

919
00:38:20,570 --> 00:38:22,630
you can clean up, so I could reach

920
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:23,890
out to him and say, sorry, I couldn't

921
00:38:23,890 --> 00:38:24,710
talk to you at the protest.

922
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:25,830
I'd like to find out.

923
00:38:26,110 --> 00:38:28,270
But it's like, how do you catch yourself

924
00:38:28,270 --> 00:38:30,490
being non-relational and stop it?

925
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:33,410
What exactly did you say to him that

926
00:38:33,410 --> 00:38:34,230
was non-relational?

927
00:38:34,230 --> 00:38:36,110
You didn't have time to talk to him,

928
00:38:36,150 --> 00:38:36,310
right?

929
00:38:36,510 --> 00:38:37,550
I didn't talk to him.

930
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:39,230
I basically didn't talk to him.

931
00:38:39,850 --> 00:38:41,730
I was live and he was sort of

932
00:38:41,730 --> 00:38:43,050
coming up to me and talking, and I

933
00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:44,150
basically ignored him.

934
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:47,290
Yeah, well, I mean, in certain circumstances you

935
00:38:47,290 --> 00:38:50,070
kind of, if you're alive and you can't

936
00:38:50,070 --> 00:38:51,190
talk to him, you can't talk to him.

937
00:38:51,250 --> 00:38:53,330
I wouldn't call that necessarily non-relational.

938
00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:55,850
But I will say that you do make

939
00:38:55,850 --> 00:38:57,990
a really good point, which is, you're saying,

940
00:38:58,270 --> 00:38:59,130
I caught myself.

941
00:38:59,130 --> 00:39:03,850
And one real key here is building, slowing

942
00:39:03,850 --> 00:39:06,670
down our communication so that it's intentional, as

943
00:39:06,670 --> 00:39:07,610
opposed to reactive.

944
00:39:08,030 --> 00:39:09,650
There's a lot of anger in our movement

945
00:39:09,650 --> 00:39:10,990
for very good reason.

946
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:13,610
That's another topic that we can discuss later

947
00:39:13,610 --> 00:39:14,830
if you want to.

948
00:39:18,210 --> 00:39:20,590
There's a lot of dysregulation in our movement,

949
00:39:20,730 --> 00:39:23,290
this feeling of just being charged and sort

950
00:39:23,290 --> 00:39:24,730
of like your nervous system is out of

951
00:39:24,730 --> 00:39:25,130
balance.

952
00:39:25,370 --> 00:39:29,010
And when we're dysregulated, when we're angry, it's

953
00:39:29,010 --> 00:39:29,710
hard.

954
00:39:30,050 --> 00:39:31,730
We all know that we should practise a

955
00:39:31,730 --> 00:39:33,350
formula, but doing it is another thing.

956
00:39:33,770 --> 00:39:37,650
And so the first step is to slowing

957
00:39:37,650 --> 00:39:41,030
down our communication so that we give ourselves

958
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:43,870
the opportunity to get out of autopilot and

959
00:39:43,870 --> 00:39:48,070
building in life practises, so that our communication

960
00:39:48,070 --> 00:39:50,170
becomes more intentional.

961
00:39:50,670 --> 00:39:53,610
And we build enough self-awareness so that

962
00:39:53,610 --> 00:39:55,970
we're not caught by surprise by ourselves.

963
00:39:55,970 --> 00:40:00,070
Most people don't realise it, that they're triggered

964
00:40:00,070 --> 00:40:03,090
until after they've said 20 things that they

965
00:40:03,090 --> 00:40:06,130
wish they could unhear themselves say and can

966
00:40:06,130 --> 00:40:07,130
never really take back.

967
00:40:07,830 --> 00:40:11,490
So slowing down your communication is one step.

968
00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:15,650
I mean, building relational literacy is the solution

969
00:40:15,650 --> 00:40:19,390
to most of the problems we're talking about

970
00:40:19,390 --> 00:40:19,630
here.

971
00:40:19,790 --> 00:40:22,230
If we build our relational literacy, if people

972
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:24,710
build their relational literacy even by 5%

973
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:27,530
or 10%, that can be absolutely game-changing

974
00:40:27,530 --> 00:40:28,010
in life.

975
00:40:28,130 --> 00:40:30,050
And this is not rocket science.

976
00:40:30,450 --> 00:40:31,890
I have a whole book on it, Getting

977
00:40:31,890 --> 00:40:32,790
Relationships Right.

978
00:40:33,150 --> 00:40:35,390
And on the website, infighting.org, there's a

979
00:40:35,390 --> 00:40:37,630
tonne of information and resources on doing this.

980
00:40:39,330 --> 00:40:43,350
Asking yourself, as you're communicating, keeping the formula

981
00:40:43,350 --> 00:40:46,410
in your mind is also really important.

982
00:40:47,070 --> 00:40:50,870
Pausing during a communication to ask yourself, how,

983
00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:53,530
check inside, how am I feeling right now?

984
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:55,690
Maybe the other person is not practising the

985
00:40:55,690 --> 00:40:56,650
formula toward you.

986
00:40:56,910 --> 00:41:00,410
So often we come out of a conversation

987
00:41:00,890 --> 00:41:03,450
and we just feel a little smaller than

988
00:41:03,450 --> 00:41:05,150
we did when we went into it, a

989
00:41:05,150 --> 00:41:07,370
little less good about ourselves.

990
00:41:07,590 --> 00:41:09,490
And we can't quite put our finger on

991
00:41:09,490 --> 00:41:09,930
why.

992
00:41:10,610 --> 00:41:13,390
And very often that's because the other person

993
00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:14,930
was communicating with us in a way that

994
00:41:14,930 --> 00:41:17,050
was not relational, that was not honouring our

995
00:41:17,050 --> 00:41:20,630
dignity, but wasn't obvious enough for us to

996
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:22,210
actually recognise and identify.

997
00:41:22,610 --> 00:41:24,430
So we just come away feeling like we're

998
00:41:24,430 --> 00:41:25,590
somehow not good enough.

999
00:41:26,250 --> 00:41:30,610
And pausing during a communication and really to

1000
00:41:30,610 --> 00:41:32,770
the best of your ability, checking with yourself

1001
00:41:32,770 --> 00:41:35,270
and ask yourself, am I connected with my

1002
00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:36,010
empathy right now?

1003
00:41:36,510 --> 00:41:37,990
Am I connected with my empathy?

1004
00:41:38,190 --> 00:41:40,890
If you're not connected with your empathy, or

1005
00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:43,290
especially if you're angry, right?

1006
00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:45,790
That's a red flag.

1007
00:41:46,810 --> 00:41:49,870
One of the things I mentioned earlier is

1008
00:41:49,870 --> 00:41:54,470
that a key driver of infighting is high

1009
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:56,810
levels of anger in our movement, and our

1010
00:41:56,810 --> 00:41:58,210
anger makes sense.

1011
00:41:58,290 --> 00:41:59,750
I'm not putting it down, right?

1012
00:42:00,030 --> 00:42:05,290
Anger is the emotional response, the legitimate, healthy,

1013
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:08,950
emotional response to witnessing or experiencing injustice.

1014
00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:12,370
And your anger is an indication that your

1015
00:42:12,370 --> 00:42:13,410
moral compass is working.

1016
00:42:13,410 --> 00:42:16,410
Your anger gives you the motivation and the

1017
00:42:16,410 --> 00:42:21,330
sense of power necessary to take proactive measures,

1018
00:42:21,570 --> 00:42:24,550
action, to protect someone else or yourself.

1019
00:42:25,010 --> 00:42:26,510
Your anger is important, right?

1020
00:42:26,970 --> 00:42:30,330
How we relate to our anger, however, determines

1021
00:42:30,330 --> 00:42:33,790
whether our anger is helpful or toxic and

1022
00:42:33,790 --> 00:42:34,210
harmful.

1023
00:42:34,730 --> 00:42:36,610
And a lot of us have not learned

1024
00:42:36,610 --> 00:42:38,230
how to relate to our anger in a

1025
00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:38,790
healthy way.

1026
00:42:39,130 --> 00:42:41,770
And this makes it very hard for us

1027
00:42:41,770 --> 00:42:42,770
to practise the formula.

1028
00:42:43,310 --> 00:42:46,410
So when we relate to our anger in

1029
00:42:46,410 --> 00:42:49,410
a healthy way, we recognise it for what

1030
00:42:49,410 --> 00:42:49,970
it is.

1031
00:42:50,330 --> 00:42:53,050
It is nothing more and nothing less than

1032
00:42:53,050 --> 00:42:55,590
an emotion that is occurring inside of us.

1033
00:42:55,710 --> 00:42:56,070
That's it.

1034
00:42:56,170 --> 00:42:58,490
It's a data point alerting us to the

1035
00:42:58,490 --> 00:43:00,830
fact that there might be an injustice that

1036
00:43:00,830 --> 00:43:01,450
we are witnessing.

1037
00:43:02,110 --> 00:43:03,170
There may not be.

1038
00:43:03,250 --> 00:43:04,950
We might just think something is unjust when

1039
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:05,810
it actually isn't.

1040
00:43:06,450 --> 00:43:08,570
That's all it is, is a data point

1041
00:43:08,570 --> 00:43:09,430
and it's a feeling.

1042
00:43:10,170 --> 00:43:12,290
Our anger, we relate to our anger in

1043
00:43:12,290 --> 00:43:14,790
an unhealthy way when a couple of things

1044
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:15,170
happen.

1045
00:43:15,830 --> 00:43:20,010
One is we don't recognise our anger as

1046
00:43:20,010 --> 00:43:23,570
a feeling, but we become blended with it

1047
00:43:23,570 --> 00:43:25,810
or like merged with it.

1048
00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:28,190
We're hijacked by it, essentially, right?

1049
00:43:28,270 --> 00:43:31,030
It's like, it's not, I'm feeling angry or

1050
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:32,430
a part of me is feeling angry, but

1051
00:43:32,430 --> 00:43:33,250
I am angry.

1052
00:43:33,350 --> 00:43:34,590
I and the anger are one.

1053
00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:36,570
We're looking at the world through the lens

1054
00:43:36,570 --> 00:43:37,330
of our anger.

1055
00:43:37,950 --> 00:43:40,090
And we relate to our anger in an

1056
00:43:40,090 --> 00:43:41,890
unhealthy way when it has the charge of

1057
00:43:41,890 --> 00:43:42,410
contempt.

1058
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:46,350
As soon as you feel yourself feeling contempt,

1059
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:50,590
which is anger plus judgement, you're looking down

1060
00:43:50,590 --> 00:43:51,970
on someone, right?

1061
00:43:52,250 --> 00:43:53,930
That is a red flag.

1062
00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:55,790
That is a red flag that you have

1063
00:43:55,790 --> 00:43:58,050
very likely lost connection with your empathy.

1064
00:43:58,570 --> 00:44:01,330
And it's a red flag that there's a

1065
00:44:01,330 --> 00:44:03,190
good chance you're gonna violate the formula.

1066
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:05,210
And there's been a lot of research on

1067
00:44:05,210 --> 00:44:07,130
this and studies have shown that contempt is

1068
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:09,530
the one emotion most likely to destroy any

1069
00:44:09,530 --> 00:44:10,090
relationship.

1070
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:13,670
Wow, just so profound.

1071
00:44:13,970 --> 00:44:16,930
So it's not just what you say, but

1072
00:44:16,930 --> 00:44:18,810
it's how and where you say it.

1073
00:44:18,970 --> 00:44:22,950
Has social media amplified this toxicity and this

1074
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:23,370
infighting?

1075
00:44:23,850 --> 00:44:24,970
Yeah, absolutely.

1076
00:44:25,370 --> 00:44:27,090
So, you know, as I mentioned a couple

1077
00:44:27,090 --> 00:44:27,970
of times, right?

1078
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:30,550
Communication is the primary way we relate.

1079
00:44:30,970 --> 00:44:33,510
So communication is the primary way that infighting

1080
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:34,210
gets expressed.

1081
00:44:34,210 --> 00:44:37,870
And the primary way we communicate is on

1082
00:44:37,870 --> 00:44:38,610
social media.

1083
00:44:38,790 --> 00:44:41,730
That means that most of us, you know,

1084
00:44:42,090 --> 00:44:44,870
or I should say most communication is happening

1085
00:44:44,870 --> 00:44:45,690
online.

1086
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:48,050
And here's the thing that's really concerning.

1087
00:44:48,650 --> 00:44:54,090
Social media is actually structured to, number one,

1088
00:44:54,210 --> 00:44:54,970
trigger anger.

1089
00:44:55,350 --> 00:44:57,870
It is structured to cause us to feel

1090
00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:58,250
angry.

1091
00:44:58,450 --> 00:45:00,810
It is structured to cause us to feel

1092
00:45:00,810 --> 00:45:01,450
fear.

1093
00:45:01,870 --> 00:45:04,770
It is structured to reduce our thinking and

1094
00:45:04,770 --> 00:45:06,310
to cause us to think in more shallow

1095
00:45:06,310 --> 00:45:06,910
ways.

1096
00:45:07,970 --> 00:45:11,470
And it is structured to basically dysregulate us.

1097
00:45:11,730 --> 00:45:13,410
And, you know, I mentioned dysregulation a couple

1098
00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:14,770
of times and I can talk about this

1099
00:45:14,770 --> 00:45:16,130
a little bit more fully.

1100
00:45:16,250 --> 00:45:18,570
I think it could be helpful for listeners

1101
00:45:18,570 --> 00:45:19,710
to be aware of.

1102
00:45:20,850 --> 00:45:23,650
Dysregulation is the experience of your nervous system

1103
00:45:23,650 --> 00:45:24,510
being unbalanced.

1104
00:45:25,030 --> 00:45:28,370
And so when you are dysregulated, that basic,

1105
00:45:28,570 --> 00:45:30,110
everybody knows what it feels like to be

1106
00:45:30,110 --> 00:45:32,130
dysregulated because you're in and out of dysregulation

1107
00:45:32,130 --> 00:45:33,910
throughout the course of a day, you know?

1108
00:45:34,290 --> 00:45:36,570
So you just like, for example, you could

1109
00:45:36,570 --> 00:45:39,750
be regulated, calm, you know, in your happy

1110
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:41,810
place, feeling a sense of balance.

1111
00:45:41,890 --> 00:45:43,130
You're not overstimulated.

1112
00:45:43,530 --> 00:45:44,690
You're not exhausted.

1113
00:45:45,170 --> 00:45:46,930
You know, you're not worried about what you're

1114
00:45:46,930 --> 00:45:47,570
about to do.

1115
00:45:47,690 --> 00:45:49,010
You're just, you're relaxed.

1116
00:45:49,070 --> 00:45:52,510
Let's say you're like, you're starting to read

1117
00:45:52,510 --> 00:45:53,490
your emails in the morning.

1118
00:45:53,610 --> 00:45:55,350
You're sipping your morning coffee or tea.

1119
00:45:55,510 --> 00:45:58,050
And then this email pops into your inbox

1120
00:45:58,050 --> 00:46:01,090
and it's like, you know, subject heading, urgent,

1121
00:46:01,470 --> 00:46:02,490
five caps.

1122
00:46:02,670 --> 00:46:04,330
And, you know, you open it up and

1123
00:46:04,330 --> 00:46:05,990
it's a colleague at work that's like, you

1124
00:46:05,990 --> 00:46:08,150
know, complaining about something going on.

1125
00:46:08,510 --> 00:46:11,590
Chances are, chances are, you know, you went

1126
00:46:11,590 --> 00:46:15,310
from regulated to at least slightly dysregulated, right?

1127
00:46:15,490 --> 00:46:20,470
And social media is structured to dysregulate us.

1128
00:46:20,770 --> 00:46:26,110
And dysregulated people have less access to their

1129
00:46:26,110 --> 00:46:27,070
rational faculties.

1130
00:46:27,070 --> 00:46:29,090
So when somebody is dysregulated, you know, you

1131
00:46:29,090 --> 00:46:31,930
can be wildly dysregulated or mildly dysregulated.

1132
00:46:32,050 --> 00:46:35,610
Nevertheless, you think less rationally and you're less

1133
00:46:35,610 --> 00:46:37,410
connected to your empathy.

1134
00:46:38,190 --> 00:46:39,750
So just imagine, I mean, this is a

1135
00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:43,470
recipe for fighting and for saying horrible things.

1136
00:46:44,510 --> 00:46:47,250
So social media is structured to dysregulate us.

1137
00:46:47,330 --> 00:46:50,410
And we've got people using social media as

1138
00:46:50,410 --> 00:46:53,030
a forum to communicate about critical social issues

1139
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:54,450
that are a matter of life and death.

1140
00:46:54,450 --> 00:46:57,190
You know, people can't even talk on social

1141
00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:59,870
media without fighting each other about like, what

1142
00:46:59,870 --> 00:47:02,110
birthday present to buy their nephew.

1143
00:47:03,430 --> 00:47:06,330
Yeah, you know, Paige had a question that

1144
00:47:06,330 --> 00:47:07,170
I thought was great.

1145
00:47:07,230 --> 00:47:08,610
And it was, how do we stay calm

1146
00:47:08,610 --> 00:47:09,230
at protests?

1147
00:47:09,290 --> 00:47:11,010
And it relates to another question I have,

1148
00:47:11,350 --> 00:47:13,750
which is, we aspire to treat everybody with

1149
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:16,730
dignity, but people who abuse animals to make

1150
00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:20,410
money almost never respond to appeals to conscience.

1151
00:47:20,830 --> 00:47:23,870
Almost invariably, because it always starts with polite

1152
00:47:23,870 --> 00:47:25,090
letters and videos.

1153
00:47:25,290 --> 00:47:26,270
This is what you're doing.

1154
00:47:26,670 --> 00:47:31,290
Almost invariably, it takes massive disruptions and public

1155
00:47:31,290 --> 00:47:35,830
humiliation of those entities and the CEOs and

1156
00:47:35,830 --> 00:47:37,870
the people who are making these decisions before

1157
00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:38,630
they capitulate.

1158
00:47:39,070 --> 00:47:41,190
So how do you dovetail that with treating

1159
00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:42,390
everybody with dignity?

1160
00:47:43,610 --> 00:47:46,750
I mean, I don't think that it's either

1161
00:47:46,750 --> 00:47:47,110
or.

1162
00:47:47,250 --> 00:47:48,990
I don't think that you have to choose

1163
00:47:48,990 --> 00:47:55,910
between exposing wrongdoing and shaming people.

1164
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:57,570
I think what you can do, I mean,

1165
00:47:57,710 --> 00:48:01,710
shaming tactics are highly problematic for a variety

1166
00:48:01,710 --> 00:48:02,570
of different reasons.

1167
00:48:03,610 --> 00:48:05,790
I think what we can do and what

1168
00:48:05,790 --> 00:48:08,750
people have done, you know, historically, in at

1169
00:48:08,750 --> 00:48:12,250
least in nonviolent social change protests and movements

1170
00:48:12,250 --> 00:48:14,590
is to hold people accountable, right?

1171
00:48:14,610 --> 00:48:17,630
You highlight the behaviour and the damage that

1172
00:48:17,630 --> 00:48:18,170
they've done.

1173
00:48:18,170 --> 00:48:21,870
You can completely expose someone's wrongdoings.

1174
00:48:21,970 --> 00:48:24,310
You can make fully public the harm that

1175
00:48:24,310 --> 00:48:27,890
they've caused without hurling insults at them and

1176
00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:29,190
their families in the process.

1177
00:48:29,710 --> 00:48:32,090
I mean, once we cross the line of

1178
00:48:32,090 --> 00:48:35,450
not simply exposing the behaviours, I mean, we

1179
00:48:35,450 --> 00:48:37,730
don't need to embellish, we don't need to

1180
00:48:37,730 --> 00:48:38,390
exaggerate.

1181
00:48:38,530 --> 00:48:41,070
The good and the horrible news about the

1182
00:48:41,070 --> 00:48:43,110
work that we're doing is that we do

1183
00:48:43,110 --> 00:48:44,730
not need to exaggerate any of it.

1184
00:48:44,810 --> 00:48:46,270
It's as bad as it gets.

1185
00:48:46,930 --> 00:48:49,770
All we need to do is to expose

1186
00:48:49,770 --> 00:48:50,470
the truth.

1187
00:48:51,010 --> 00:48:54,130
So we expose the truth and we expose

1188
00:48:54,130 --> 00:48:58,390
the behaviours without hurling insults at and degrading

1189
00:48:58,390 --> 00:49:00,710
the people who are engaging the behaviours.

1190
00:49:00,910 --> 00:49:02,150
We don't need to do that.

1191
00:49:02,770 --> 00:49:04,630
Okay, so no more saying, how do you

1192
00:49:04,630 --> 00:49:05,410
sleep at night?

1193
00:49:05,890 --> 00:49:07,410
That's one of my favourites.

1194
00:49:08,370 --> 00:49:10,230
I mean, I don't even know that that

1195
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:13,230
would be necessarily degrading, to be honest, that

1196
00:49:13,230 --> 00:49:14,390
kind of a statement.

1197
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:18,430
But I think we can say, I mean,

1198
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:19,850
I have to think about that statement, I

1199
00:49:19,850 --> 00:49:20,810
hadn't thought it through.

1200
00:49:21,090 --> 00:49:25,470
But anyway, I think we can choose ways,

1201
00:49:25,790 --> 00:49:29,130
we can expose the truth without taking that

1202
00:49:29,130 --> 00:49:34,650
extra step of like causing unnecessary, like making

1203
00:49:34,650 --> 00:49:36,910
ourselves look bad in the process, right?

1204
00:49:36,930 --> 00:49:39,530
Like doing unnecessary damage in the process.

1205
00:49:39,910 --> 00:49:41,650
What we need to do is expose the

1206
00:49:41,650 --> 00:49:42,050
truth.

1207
00:49:42,730 --> 00:49:45,310
Well, your book and your message is so

1208
00:49:45,310 --> 00:49:45,870
fascinating.

1209
00:49:46,050 --> 00:49:47,530
And I think one of the core questions

1210
00:49:47,530 --> 00:49:50,170
is, how is it, or maybe talk about

1211
00:49:50,170 --> 00:49:52,270
how people can be very compassionate toward animals,

1212
00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:55,090
toward the planet, toward helping people get healthy

1213
00:49:55,090 --> 00:49:57,230
and live a healthy life by going vegan.

1214
00:49:57,510 --> 00:50:00,890
And yet in their interpersonal lives, they do

1215
00:50:00,890 --> 00:50:04,830
not have compassion or they're stunted in their

1216
00:50:04,830 --> 00:50:05,370
compassion.

1217
00:50:06,370 --> 00:50:09,270
I mean, we all compartmentalise.

1218
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:12,430
People have a remarkable ability to compartmentalise.

1219
00:50:12,590 --> 00:50:15,630
You've got great humanitarians doing incredible work in

1220
00:50:15,630 --> 00:50:16,970
the world who are eating animals in the

1221
00:50:16,970 --> 00:50:17,370
process.

1222
00:50:17,830 --> 00:50:20,470
And you've got vegans who are like so

1223
00:50:20,470 --> 00:50:22,590
committed to compassion that are treating other human

1224
00:50:22,590 --> 00:50:26,210
beings in ways that they don't even believe

1225
00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:26,770
in themselves.

1226
00:50:27,110 --> 00:50:31,330
So everybody compartmentalises, even just like the roles

1227
00:50:31,330 --> 00:50:32,770
that we play and how we think of

1228
00:50:32,770 --> 00:50:34,490
ourselves in the roles and the beliefs we

1229
00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:37,450
have about ourselves in those roles, drive how

1230
00:50:37,450 --> 00:50:38,430
we treat people.

1231
00:50:38,820 --> 00:50:42,030
People can be lovely human beings to be

1232
00:50:42,030 --> 00:50:44,950
around until you're a flight attendant serving them.

1233
00:50:45,070 --> 00:50:46,090
And then suddenly they're not.

1234
00:50:46,650 --> 00:50:48,870
So I think we just need to accept

1235
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:51,650
ourselves and realise the perfect is the enemy

1236
00:50:51,650 --> 00:50:52,090
of the good.

1237
00:50:52,170 --> 00:50:54,290
We have all been born into an incredibly

1238
00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:57,010
relationally dysfunctional mess of a world.

1239
00:50:57,950 --> 00:51:00,490
All of us have inherited a lot of

1240
00:51:00,490 --> 00:51:05,050
psychological messiness that we can't fully undo.

1241
00:51:05,690 --> 00:51:10,710
And we are all complicated, messy, contradictory beings

1242
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:14,350
who are ideally just striving to be more

1243
00:51:14,350 --> 00:51:17,670
consistent in how we practise our values.

1244
00:51:17,890 --> 00:51:18,870
That's really the goal.

1245
00:51:19,030 --> 00:51:22,030
Strive toward greater consistency and try to build

1246
00:51:22,030 --> 00:51:23,010
awareness of yourself.

1247
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:23,970
Practise the form.

1248
00:51:24,310 --> 00:51:26,630
The beauty of the formula is that it's

1249
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:28,890
not limited by species, it's not limited by

1250
00:51:28,890 --> 00:51:29,550
situation.

1251
00:51:30,350 --> 00:51:33,370
When you recognise the formula, whatever situation you're

1252
00:51:33,370 --> 00:51:35,510
in, you can check in with yourself and

1253
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:38,430
ask yourself, am I practising the formula in

1254
00:51:38,430 --> 00:51:41,430
this particular situation toward this particular group of

1255
00:51:41,430 --> 00:51:43,350
people or individuals or individual?

1256
00:51:44,110 --> 00:51:45,330
So give us the formula.

1257
00:51:45,450 --> 00:51:46,870
We'll have a couple of minutes left.

1258
00:51:47,110 --> 00:51:49,550
One more time so it really drills into

1259
00:51:49,550 --> 00:51:50,090
our heads.

1260
00:51:52,130 --> 00:51:54,190
Treat, why don't we all make it really

1261
00:51:54,190 --> 00:51:54,570
simple.

1262
00:51:55,370 --> 00:51:56,810
Treat others the way that you would wish

1263
00:51:56,810 --> 00:51:57,350
to be treated.

1264
00:51:57,530 --> 00:52:00,810
The golden rule, honour their and honour their

1265
00:52:00,810 --> 00:52:01,270
dignity.

1266
00:52:01,270 --> 00:52:04,230
See others as no less worthy, no matter

1267
00:52:04,230 --> 00:52:05,910
who they are or what they have done

1268
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:09,410
in the world, no less worthy of being

1269
00:52:09,410 --> 00:52:11,990
treated with respect than you are.

1270
00:52:12,210 --> 00:52:14,670
And I know you wanna, you might wanna

1271
00:52:14,670 --> 00:52:16,490
ask me about violent criminals and we can

1272
00:52:16,490 --> 00:52:17,690
totally talk about that.

1273
00:52:17,850 --> 00:52:20,690
That does not, what I'm talking about here

1274
00:52:20,690 --> 00:52:22,630
is not that we should not hold people

1275
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:23,050
accountable.

1276
00:52:23,790 --> 00:52:25,750
What I'm talking about here is how we

1277
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:26,950
hold people accountable.

1278
00:52:27,970 --> 00:52:31,130
Yeah, well, that was a provocative question that

1279
00:52:31,130 --> 00:52:32,930
I had because in the book you say,

1280
00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:35,450
we should apply this to all people and

1281
00:52:35,450 --> 00:52:36,590
includes criminals.

1282
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:40,690
And I'm thinking, well, that's easy theoretically, but

1283
00:52:40,690 --> 00:52:44,050
in the real world, Hitler, let's just throw

1284
00:52:44,050 --> 00:52:44,890
out an example.

1285
00:52:46,490 --> 00:52:49,450
Well, like I said, I'm not talking about

1286
00:52:49,450 --> 00:52:52,450
not holding people accountable, but we can hold

1287
00:52:52,450 --> 00:52:54,790
them accountable while honouring their dignity in the

1288
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:55,350
process.

1289
00:52:55,730 --> 00:52:56,930
I mean, think of it this way.

1290
00:52:57,670 --> 00:53:00,490
Had you Jane or I been born into

1291
00:53:00,490 --> 00:53:01,810
the body and brain of Hitler?

1292
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:03,170
I'll just talk about myself.

1293
00:53:03,290 --> 00:53:05,470
If I had been born into the body

1294
00:53:05,470 --> 00:53:07,110
and brain of Hitler, if I had been

1295
00:53:07,110 --> 00:53:10,410
raised by exactly the way Hitler was and

1296
00:53:10,410 --> 00:53:14,910
had every experience that Hitler had, I mean,

1297
00:53:14,990 --> 00:53:16,350
do you really think that I would be

1298
00:53:16,350 --> 00:53:17,590
any different than he was?

1299
00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:18,710
Of course not.

1300
00:53:18,970 --> 00:53:22,950
Like expecting anyone to be different from who

1301
00:53:22,950 --> 00:53:24,370
and how they are is like expecting a

1302
00:53:24,370 --> 00:53:26,010
tree that's been rained on not to be

1303
00:53:26,010 --> 00:53:26,270
wet.

1304
00:53:27,370 --> 00:53:30,350
None of us is anything more nor less

1305
00:53:30,350 --> 00:53:32,690
than the hard wiring, the biology that we

1306
00:53:32,690 --> 00:53:35,310
came in here with in every single experience

1307
00:53:35,310 --> 00:53:36,530
that we've had in our lives.

1308
00:53:37,090 --> 00:53:39,350
So does this mean we don't hold people

1309
00:53:39,350 --> 00:53:39,710
accountable?

1310
00:53:39,890 --> 00:53:40,730
Of course not.

1311
00:53:41,010 --> 00:53:42,330
We need to hold people accountable.

1312
00:53:42,510 --> 00:53:45,670
We need to protect others from being harmed.

1313
00:53:46,370 --> 00:53:47,970
We don't have to be bullies in the

1314
00:53:47,970 --> 00:53:48,330
process.

1315
00:53:48,810 --> 00:53:51,830
We can hold people accountable without thinking you

1316
00:53:51,830 --> 00:53:54,310
lousy less than being.

1317
00:53:55,050 --> 00:53:58,170
And instead think you were born into the

1318
00:53:58,170 --> 00:53:59,450
brain and body that you were born in.

1319
00:53:59,630 --> 00:54:01,810
You had the experiences that you had and

1320
00:54:01,810 --> 00:54:02,510
here you sit.

1321
00:54:03,630 --> 00:54:06,650
And you're going to prison or and you're

1322
00:54:06,650 --> 00:54:07,750
paying the price for this.

1323
00:54:08,050 --> 00:54:11,950
It's a matter of holding people accountable behaviourally,

1324
00:54:12,250 --> 00:54:15,730
protecting others from them, for example, and not

1325
00:54:15,730 --> 00:54:18,870
in our minds demonising them and turning them

1326
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:21,590
into putting ourselves on a pedestal and thinking

1327
00:54:21,590 --> 00:54:27,330
that we are somehow more like ethical or

1328
00:54:27,330 --> 00:54:29,090
better beings than they are.

1329
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:32,430
So I think this is so powerful because

1330
00:54:32,430 --> 00:54:35,290
it really boils down to our entire society

1331
00:54:35,290 --> 00:54:38,830
is a hierarchical and this one is important

1332
00:54:38,830 --> 00:54:40,490
and this one's less important and this one's

1333
00:54:40,490 --> 00:54:41,030
less important.

1334
00:54:41,130 --> 00:54:42,790
And then animals are at the very bottom.

1335
00:54:43,130 --> 00:54:45,170
And once we get rid of that mindset,

1336
00:54:45,170 --> 00:54:50,150
then animals can experience rights, hopefully.

1337
00:54:50,610 --> 00:54:51,490
Final thoughts.

1338
00:54:52,750 --> 00:54:54,570
Yeah, I mean, and you're right.

1339
00:54:54,750 --> 00:54:56,710
If you look at like the core belief

1340
00:54:56,710 --> 00:55:00,570
driving all different systems of injustice from racism

1341
00:55:00,570 --> 00:55:04,310
to patriarchy to speciesism and carnism and this

1342
00:55:04,310 --> 00:55:07,970
same belief driving all behaviours that are unjust.

1343
00:55:08,850 --> 00:55:11,330
This is the belief in this myth, this

1344
00:55:11,330 --> 00:55:13,250
myth and a hierarchy of moral worth that

1345
00:55:13,250 --> 00:55:17,670
some individuals are more worthy of being treated

1346
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:18,970
with respect than others.

1347
00:55:19,670 --> 00:55:21,670
And we all are who we are.

1348
00:55:22,550 --> 00:55:24,970
So I think it's really important for us

1349
00:55:24,970 --> 00:55:28,270
to, again, I think our movement has done

1350
00:55:28,270 --> 00:55:30,250
such great work and is doing such great

1351
00:55:30,250 --> 00:55:31,790
work and the people in this movement deeply

1352
00:55:31,790 --> 00:55:32,490
inspire me.

1353
00:55:33,190 --> 00:55:36,070
And I just hope that this work can

1354
00:55:36,070 --> 00:55:38,790
help people who are doing great work, do

1355
00:55:38,790 --> 00:55:41,830
what they're doing and find more joy, more

1356
00:55:41,830 --> 00:55:44,750
empowerment and more effectiveness in the process.

1357
00:55:45,590 --> 00:55:46,230
Wow.

1358
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:50,730
We have been talking to Dr. Melanie Joy,

1359
00:55:51,050 --> 00:55:52,970
an absolute inspiration.

1360
00:55:53,550 --> 00:55:54,910
I have learned so much.

1361
00:55:55,170 --> 00:55:58,450
Everybody commenting saying they have learned so much.

1362
00:55:58,730 --> 00:55:59,950
So what I would urge you to do

1363
00:55:59,950 --> 00:56:03,010
is please get her latest book, which is

1364
00:56:03,010 --> 00:56:05,690
How to End Injustice Everywhere.

1365
00:56:06,090 --> 00:56:08,030
It is absolutely fantastic.

1366
00:56:08,030 --> 00:56:10,350
I happen to have it in hard copy

1367
00:56:10,350 --> 00:56:11,850
on Kindle and Audible.

1368
00:56:12,370 --> 00:56:16,290
So I'm completely immersing myself in this absolutely

1369
00:56:16,290 --> 00:56:18,310
crucial message for all vegans.

1370
00:56:18,450 --> 00:56:21,570
And of course, check out her amazing bestseller,

1371
00:56:21,950 --> 00:56:23,370
Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear

1372
00:56:23,370 --> 00:56:23,630
Cows.

1373
00:56:23,750 --> 00:56:24,630
What an incredible book.

1374
00:56:24,750 --> 00:56:27,550
So many books that Dr. Joy has written.

1375
00:56:27,710 --> 00:56:29,090
These are just some of them.

1376
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:30,730
You can check them all out.

1377
00:56:31,030 --> 00:56:32,890
Just want to say thank you so much

1378
00:56:32,890 --> 00:56:35,590
for joining us live from Berlin, Germany.

1379
00:56:36,210 --> 00:56:37,290
Thank you, Jane.

1380
00:56:37,290 --> 00:56:39,790
You're so inspiring.

1381
00:56:40,010 --> 00:56:40,790
I love talking to you.

1382
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:41,570
Thank you so much.

1383
00:56:41,650 --> 00:56:43,150
And I want to just shout out also

1384
00:56:43,150 --> 00:56:44,870
visit infighting.org.

1385
00:56:45,510 --> 00:56:45,950
Absolutely.

1386
00:56:46,450 --> 00:56:47,710
Visit infighting.org.

1387
00:56:47,790 --> 00:56:49,330
We've got it right up here.

1388
00:56:49,550 --> 00:56:51,470
Everybody, and order those books now.

1389
00:56:51,790 --> 00:56:53,450
See you next time here on Unchained TV.

1390
00:56:53,650 --> 00:56:53,990
Thank you.