UnchainedTV: Meet The Ultimate Vegan Business Insider!

0:00 You are meeting an extraordinary novelist, artist, and vegan investor and philanthropist. We are gonna learn all about the many, many projects J.D. Rash is involved in. And it's truly unbelievable to me how he is able to do so many things at once. Just to give you an idea, this man has helped so many vegan organisations and sanctuaries. He started out as a banker. Now he's working with Beyond Impact, which helps vegan companies like Wicked Kitchen and many other up-and-coming companies that are compassionate.

0:47 He's also written this trilogy called The Silver Forest, as well as this extraordinary artwork, which may seem familiar to you. It's based on something very scientific. So I wanna go straight out to J .D. Rash. Please tell us about your work specifically. Let's start with your novel and we'll move on to all your philanthropy. What is The Silver Forest? The Silver Forest is an ideal. It's like an Eden. And the book is based on the concept of a return to Eden, return to our basic principles.

1:31 And that's the trajectory that the main character has to go through. It's something that the wizards seek, the golden tree and the silver forest, the tree of knowledge, the tree of understanding. And the question is, how do we get there? How do we regain this innocence? How do we regain the knowledge? How do we regain the respect that we're missing in this novel and I think also in the world? So how the heck do you have time to do that while at the same time, you are doing so much extraordinary work in other areas?

2:11 Again, you are the ultimate vegan business insider. You've worked with Beyond Impact, which you're a partner there, helping so many vegan companies like Wicked Kitchen, but many others, we're gonna get to that. And you also are writing this trilogy. This is book one, book two and three coming. And then you also do this art. I mean, this is absolutely extraordinary. Where on earth do you get the time and the energy? And you are quite an acclaimed artist at this point, which I didn't realise knowing you in another world, I was Googling you and I'm like, oh my God, this man's also an acclaimed visual artist.

2:52 How the heck do you do all this, Jody? Yeah, well, you're one to ask, Jane. You do quite a bit yourself too, but it helps to have the fact that my kids are grown. So that freed up a lot of time as they moved out of the house. So that was part of it. Part of it really is just an interest and each different thing that I do, for me, it's like an exploration. You wanna discover things about the world, about yourself, and there are just different ways to do that. So the art helps me think through issues relating to the world. So does the writing helps me think through social issues.

3:32 And then the vegan investing and the philanthropy are actually more directly helping the types of companies that I think need to be around in the world. We need to, in order to accomplish the things that will bring us to more fulfilment, more understanding, a kinder, gentler world. Well, let's talk a little bit about some of those comments and those companies, and then we'll get some callers on the other side. So Wicked Kitchen, absolutely extraordinary company that is turning mushrooms into steaks. And of course, it's a compassionate company, but it's also a very successful company that beyond impact has really gotten behind.

4:19 Hey guys, welcome to the Wicked Kitchen. Super special episode today. I'm gonna show you three mind-bending mushroom cooking techniques with three amazing mushrooms. We're gonna make sweet chilli maitake steaks and turn an alliance main into the super herbaceous, flavorful steak that is gonna blow your mind. And then also the Asian inspired barbecue brown oyster mushroom, you guys. You're not gonna wanna miss this. Three amazing mushroom recipes coming your way. So beyond impact got behind Wicked Kitchen. What's the criteria you use for determining, well, I'm gonna get back this vegan company versus this vegan company?

5:06 Well, there's a number of different criteria you use. The first thing is, will it have an impact on animal abuse and animal use? And so that's our first test. So obviously companies like Wicked are very good on that. But then it has to work from a financial standpoint as well. So we look at the founders, how motivated they are, how much skin they've got in the game. We'll look at their business trajectory as well. So expected earnings and market demand, things like that. And then we're a smaller fund. So we generally get involved with the companies initially at a very early stage and try to help them build up so that they can start attracting more and more capital as they grow.

5:54 Wow, well, I wanna talk to you more about that. We've got some callers who are lined up to ask you questions. Tiffany in Los Angeles, your question or thought for J.D. Rash. Tiffany? Okay, go ahead, Tiffany. Tiffany, are you there? All right, well, the next caller then. Great, Niloufar. Hi, considering your leadership role in investment and sustainable finance, how do your clients and or audience respond to discussions about veganism and investments in vegan products?

6:48 J.D.? Well, I think, yeah, I think it's necessary to invest. I mean, I started off more on the not-for-profit side and I served on a few not-for-profit boards, specifically vegan sanctuaries. One was a veg fund, which gave grants to entrepreneurs. But then I thought, we can tell people they should go vegan, but if the products aren't there, it makes it very difficult. So how do you fill that need for the products? Because there definitely is demand. People are very interested in it for a lot of different reasons. Obviously, a lot of them are for ethical reasons, which is basically why I got involved in it.

7:32 But there are also a lot of people who like the vegan products for health or environmental reasons as well. So the fund that I originally started, which I turned over to somebody else, we were one of the first investors in this space because basically our backer liked the idea of actually making things available to people, making products available to people. And the good thing about it is, if your investments do pay off or at least a certain portion of them, then that you feed back into the ecosystem and it creates more and more companies. So that's what I would tell them the reason to invest in vegan products is, one is it's a growing market, but also it's needed if veganism is going to take root and we're gonna make it as easy as possible for people to switch.

8:27 Interesting. There's so much there because vegan products have been under attack by the mainstream media lately. And it seems like there's an article that comes out every day trying to knock either alternative proteins like a plant-based burgers or restaurateurs. If somebody gets into trouble like Sam Bankman Freed, it's always, oh, he's a vegan, he's a vegan. Well, what about all the people who are criminals who are eating meat? Nobody mentions the fact that they eat meat. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's really an unfair comparison or what I'd call selective indignation. But let's go to our next caller, Lindsay in Woodland Hills, your question or thought for JD Rash.

9:13 Yes, my question is a little unusual perhaps. I'm wondering how feasible it is to open vegan restaurants, small ones perhaps in areas that are rural or there's just really no vegan options at all. Do you think that it's possible to open vegan restaurants in areas like that? Good question. Having never lived in a rural area, basically growing up in New York, I'm not sure what the demand is there for that.

9:55 I mean, when you travel out of the main cities into the outlying areas and rural areas, you can see that there is certainly a need for that. I mean, the city is running rampant in many of those communities. So there is a need for it. I think the answer is, it depends on how you present it to the community and what types of foods you present. So the first thing I would do if you're looking at doing that is finding out what the local cuisine is and then figuring out how to veganize it and then try to market it as good healthy alternatives to what they have.

10:36 Because if you just basically try to sell people on some type of food that like, do like a Beyond Sushi out in rural Arkansas, that probably won't work. But if you come up with your vegan baby back ribs, I think you have a better chance of making it successful. And in terms of like starting up smaller like restaurants and things like that, it's great if you can get kind of local people involved in investing in it because then they spread the word and they'll eat there, they'll get their friends to eat there. And you have, I think a really good chance of being successful that way.

11:19 All right, we've got another caller for you. And this one is Tiffany in Los Angeles. Your question or thought for J.D. Rash, the ultimate vegan business insider. Hi, Jane, thank you for taking my call and I'm excited to get your new book or your book. I wanna check it out. And I love your work with Wicked. They even have it in my local bonds now. So that's very exciting. And I wanted to ask you, what made you make the connection to the animals to go vegan since you were in business? Sounds like you're in regular banking business.

12:00 So I was wondering what made you make that connection? Yeah, I became vegetarian back in 1983. And I'd like to say it was my idea to do it, but I have to congratulate my wife on that. She read a phrase, be the change you wanna be. And she just decided eating meat was something that she didn't wanna do. And you're right, I was working in finance at the Fortune 500 companies. And it's like, yeah, you can do that, but in the world I live in, it can't be done. And that lasts for about six months.

12:40 And then I said, I just not comfortable eating the meat. Just admitting that my wife was right about that and admitting that my wife is right has been why we've been married for 40 years. And so I just did it. And it wasn't, the sky didn't fall. It wasn't as earth shaking as people thought. It was actually relatively easy to do. At the time I would even take clients out to steakhouses and I researched which one had the best vegetarian options. And then about, I guess it was about 17 years ago, my wife and I were going up to Canada.

13:25 I had some work up there. And so we drove up and someone told us about Farm Sanctuary. So we stopped there and it was pouring rain, like mud knee deep. And we got the tour with our three kids and they started talking about the dairy industry and the egg industry. And one of my daughters who was 10 years old at the time looked at us after the tour and said, I'm going vegan. And it was one of those times where I figured, well, I could try to talk her out of it, but yes, she's right. And so that's how I became vegan.

14:05 And then I knew all this stuff about finance. So the question is, how can I make my day job match what my philosophy was? And one of the things that I thought was really interesting, later on, I started getting involved in business. I was working at Moody's Corporation, a big rating agency. And I convinced them to do alternative ratings, non-financial rating, specifically environmental and social. So we were doing ratings on microfinance banks. And those are banks that give small loans to poor entrepreneurs. And we were doing a conference on that.

14:47 And it was Moody's, Deutsche Bank and New York University. And we were gonna have about 300 people and it was like a three-day conference. I remember being on the phone and my boss was on it, guys from Deutsche Bank and NYU. And they said, you know, microfinance is all about our social justice and doing good. So maybe we should make the catering conform to that as well. And my boss who knows me says, you want this to be vegan, don't you? I said, absolutely. And they did and people loved it. This is like 300 people for three days and everything from the pastries to the lunches and the dinners we always did, it was all vegan.

15:34 And the only complaint we got is one guy didn't like the fact that there was only soy milk for his coffee. Well, yeah. And I just think that's how change happens where you stick your neck out. You know, as a banker and myself having been in mainstream media, when you start sticking your neck out, it's a risk. But the rewards when you have a response like that are enormous. So hopefully you convince some people there that it's not such a big deal to eat products that don't have animal parts in them. I mean, it's that simple. We've got another caller, Michelle in Los Angeles.

16:15 Your question or thought for J.D. Rash. Hi, I wanted to know your opinion on cultivated meat and how you think that may further the plant-based movement. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important. I've over the course of years invested in a lot of cultivated meat companies. You know, initially there were some ethical issues that they use bovine serum to start the growth process of that. But most of the companies have been able to get beyond that and their products don't require the killing of animals.

16:57 You know, it's a product that's really not meant for people like me. I mean, I'm not interested in it, but I don't have a problem with it from an ethical standpoint. And if it can get people who are eating and killing animals now to switch over, I think it's important. I think it's still a number of years off from being at the point where it will be competitive to the traditional meat business, but the science certainly is there. And, you know, it's just more getting efficiencies of scale, I think at this point. Okay, Karen in Venice, California, your question or thought for J.D. Rash.

17:43 Hi there. Sorry, the connection is tough. Thank you so much for what you're doing. I have a question about guidelines. Do you have any quick guidelines that you can share with us for somebody wanting to start a vegan business as far as getting, you know, investors and et cetera, you know, just some quick, easy ones that we can follow? Yeah, sure. I mean, the first thing is do your market research because, you know, the investors are going to look into this. And if it's not a viable market, and it's not a big enough market, then the investors are not going to be interested in it.

18:24 You also need to know what type of business you want to start. So if you're going to a venture capital business, like venture capitalists, like we are at Beyond Impact or other venture capitalists, what they're going to want is they're going to want an eventual exit. So you're going to have to grow. And you're going to have to, at some point, figure out how you get out of this, either selling it, going public, things like that. If it's more of a lifestyle business, and I ran my own company for like 15 years, it was a financial training company, and it was a lifestyle business, which is fine. But you can't raise venture money because you want this to earn a living, and you can make a very good living out of it.

19:07 So understand first what type of business you're going to do, do your research on it. And then if you need money, understand that there are different types of investors who go into one type of business than another type of business. But the key is, you know, if you wouldn't invest in this, and that's one of the things they're going to ask is, have you put any of your money in this? Because if you don't have skin in the game, then it's really easy for you to walk. So every investor is going to say, well, what have you put in? And it doesn't have to be a million bucks. You know, it depends on your situation. It just has to be something meaningful, given your personal situation, that you're not going to just get up and leave and walk out and leave the investors high and dry.

19:55 I've got a very special guest who wants to say something to you. But first I'd like to play a clip. As I've mentioned, you've helped a lot of sanctuaries, Woodstock Farm Sanctuary and Rowdy Girl Sanctuary in the heart of Texas cattle country. Let's watch a little clip of Renee King -Sounan, the founder of Rowdy Girl Sanctuary. And then we'll join her on the phone because she would like to say thank you for all the help you give her. All right, this is Buster. He's like, I guess going on eight weeks old for two months. And I've heard say he looks like a chocolate brown lab, which he does.

20:35 He was surrendered by a cattle rancher that fell in love with this baby. And we are extremely grateful that that cattle rancher had a change of heart and loved this sweet child named Buster. The reason why he called him Buster is because he will bust right into you with his nose when he's eating. Like that. Anyway, oh, like that. If you'd like to sponsor, adopt Buster, we would love that. If you'd like to donate today on behalf of Buster or become a member, it'd be a great time to do that.

21:17 Buster, cows live to be about 20 years old or more, you know, 20 to 25 years in the real world without being slaughtered. So Buster here will be living a long time if everything goes well. Thank you guys and peace out from Rowdy Girl. All right, let's go straight out to Renee King-Sonnen in Texas, the heart of cattle country. She's a former cattle rancher. She and her husband went vegan and turned their calf-cow operation into a vegan farmed animal sanctuary. Renee? Hi, Jane. Hello, Jody.

21:58 So great to see you on Unsanctioned. Hey, Renee. Hi, I just wanted to call. I saw, you know, that you were gonna be on the show and I was like, I am so thrilled. I couldn't be happier to see this. You are somebody that's just always been behind the scenes, like Jane just said a while ago, kind of on the inside, always looking in at what we do and just big support. You guided us, you directed us, you supported our campaigns and just been an amazing friend. I can always count on your insight, your advice.

22:39 And when I heard about your book, I think it was like a year ago when you sent me the whole manuscript, I was over the top because of all the people in the world, you are the one of the most well-rounded people. I mean, you are creative, you're brilliant, you're a mathematician. I mean, like, you know, you're just, your left and your right brains are so well -balanced. Anyway, and I'm just really, really grateful you're in our corner and I wanna say thank you. The animals thank you. Oh, that was beautiful. Jody, tell us how you work with Rowdy Girl Sanctuary and how you help various sanctuaries. Yeah, well, mutual friend put me in touch with Renee.

23:24 I was trying to think, you know, when we're looking at investing, one of the kind of, what I think are kind of one of the dumber questions you get asked, and we all know that there are a lot of dumb questions that we get asked, was, you know, you're gonna, if everyone went vegan, then, you know, you put all these farmers out of business. And, you know, we don't expect everyone to go vegan overnight, although it would be nice, but, you know, how do you deal with those types of situations that this will be displaced? So I started looking at, well, maybe we can use, the farmers have assets, they have the land, and so is there an alternative use for that?

24:06 And Rowdy Girl Renee was also looking to that with their Rancher Advocacy Programme. So we got put together, and I started initially doing advisory work with her on the RAP programme. And we worked with some of the ranchers who wanted to do conversions, and, you know, there were business plans to be done, financing to be arranged. So I helped out on all of that. I mean, Renee is fantastic. She's got so much energy that she put into all this stuff. So, you know, it was really fun to help her. And since then, you know, running a sanctuary, she's asked me to be an advisor on their finance committee.

24:46 So I helped them out with the finance committee meetings and budgeting and things like that. And all the fun stuff of taking care of the animals, other people do. I get to look at numbers and look at balance sheets and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, for people like me, that can be fun as well. And I'm also on the board- How are these transformations going? And Renee's got it with her organisation, Agricultural Fairness Alliance, and then there's Mercy for Animals Transformation. I just attended their 25th gala anniversary where they spoke about that. What is happening on that front? Are animal producers transitioning to plant-based and if so, at what level?

25:33 Yeah, I would say it's, honestly, it's slow. I know Miyoko is also working with dairy farmers to convert to oats for her products as well. The problem is each farmer is like a unique case so that what they produce will depend on local situations. A lot of times they have loans that they got from the meat companies that ties them in. So, you know, everyone's kind of working on it and you get successes and sometimes, you know, there's nothing that you can do. So it will be great is if there was like one organisation where it all could be put under an umbrella and they can get a budget and work with the farmers.

26:26 I think there's a big enough demand. There's just, it's just a hard nut to crack with this. But, you know, there are a number of success stories and everyone that you can get to convert to something else, I think is positive. Well, you mentioned something that I think is really significant and that is that the meat industry locks these farmers in. They become almost like indentured servants. They have to buy the grain. They don't own the animals often themselves. They're pitted against each other in tournaments. So who can produce the animals the fastest? And it's very cutthroat from what I've heard.

27:08 Is this the case? Yeah, well, I mean, Renee knows more about the actual industry than I do. I just know, you know, one of the farmers that we were working with her, they had a bank loan and in the bank loan, it specifically said that the property had to be used for animal production. So the bank was kind of liberal in not foreclosing, but, you know, you've got a million dollar mortgage and you're just, you're thinking about going to something else, the bank could come in tomorrow and totally close you down. Plus they had loans to the chicken companies as well that they needed to pay off if they're gonna do this.

27:52 So, you know, they certainly don't make it easy. Yeah, and I guess my point is that the big industries, the big conglomerates make a lot of the money, but from what I've heard and just exploring this, not being an expert, but exploring it to a certain degree is that a lot of these quote unquote farmers are basically food processors dealing with giant warehouses and they're not making the money. They're sort of just sort of living hand to mouth with all the loans and everything else. It's the big conglomerates that are making the money. And I don't know, Renee, if you're still on, what are your thoughts on this?

28:35 Oh, we gotta have you on again, sorry. Get closer. I'm right here, can you hear me? Great, we can hear you now, perfect. Yeah, yeah, I was just gonna say, you know, the transitioning the farms is until the government, our government does something to help farmers, but for individuals and nonprofits and, you know, and investors to try to do this work is, it just doesn't work. I have done everything to try and I won't keep trying to do it individually anymore with individual funding. It's just not at all, it's not sustainable.

29:18 It doesn't make any sense. But what I do do is I work very, very, very aggressively with the Agriculture Fairness Alliance to do whatever we can possibly do there to help change, you know, legislation because unless we are doing that, you know, it's just really, really hard. These farmers need the same fairness. They need the fairness that all these other farmers get for all these egregious bailouts and insurance fraud and everything else. So that's the way I look at it now. It's been, it's pretty much beat me down. It's been really, really tough to see just and feel just how difficult it really, really is.

29:58 Well, it seems to me what you're saying is that the government is subsidising the meat and dairy industry. For example, if animals die as a result of a disaster, they're treated like widgets. They're just replaced like a government insurance. And so that's really an unfair playing field because the government's propping up the industry, the meat industry. Is that what you're saying? It is an unfair playing field, and it is the playing field. That is the game. And they have all the power. They have all the money. You know, they have all the resources. And it's just really incumbent upon all of us out here that are vegans, that love animals to really get behind Agriculture Fairness Alliance and help them.

30:49 I mean, because AFA is doing whatever they can. I mean, we just can't keep trying to transition farms one farmer at a time with individuals' money. It's just, you just can't do it because these farmers to your point are usually indentured servants and they just don't have the way, they don't think like business people typically. And so they need a lot of help. Well, this is a fascinating conversation. We should have more of it. One aspect of all the work that not just Renee King-Sonin of the Rowdy Girls Sanctuary, and please support that sanctuary. It's an amazing, amazing sanctuary, but also Jodi Rash does.

31:32 And again, we're bouncing around a little bit because you do so much. And I just got to hit a couple of other aspects of your amazing work. As part of- I love y'all, I gotta run. All right, thank you, Renee. Thank you. Bye, Renee. As part of what you're doing with Beyond Impact, you are supporting and pushing cutting edge companies. Now we discussed cultivated meat for a second, but there's also something called bio-identical meat. And there's a company called Paleo that Beyond Impact has supported. We interviewed the head of Paleo.

32:14 Here's a little clip because what they're doing is truly, truly revolutionary. Hermes Sanctorum, who is the CEO and co -founder of the food tech startup, Paleo, has come up with a revolutionary product. It doesn't just taste sort of like meat. It is, and correct me if I'm wrong, bio-identically equal and the same as meat, but it does not come from animals, so it's also vegan. We are totally animal free because we, in fact, just use information. I mean, there is information available of DNA from animals that is historically built up, that information.

32:57 And in fact, when you know the sequence of DNA for a certain protein, for a certain compound that you would like to make, you just insert that piece of DNA in a yeast and that yeast starts producing the protein that you want it to produce. That's basically it. So you start from information, you make a small part of DNA, you add that to a yeast, and magic, you have your protein that you would like to have. So tell us about this aspect of the all-protein market that doesn't get a lot of publicity. It's extraordinary. It's meat that is completely vegan by copying the DNA sequence?

33:41 Yeah, I mean, with meat, it's fairly unique, but this process has been used for, actually, it's been used for thousands of years. That's how wine is made. You have yeast that turns the sugar into alcohol, and by controlling the yeast, you can, by engineering the yeast, you can have it turn proteins into something else. Other companies do that for making eggs, making milk, so they'll replicate the proteins. Paleo is one of the few that's doing it for meat.

34:22 But it's an interesting process. So the main processes of doing this conversion is either cultivation, where you start out with cells from the animal, or this fermentation process, where through the yeast transformation, you make the DNA and the cell structure that you need. So that would actually be a vegan product. It would not be a product that has any animal. It's simply copying sequences and putting in plant proteins that will then, in turn, create the DNA structure of meat. Right, that's right. Wow.

35:03 To me, that is one of the most fascinating aspects of the alternative protein story, and I really would be excited to see that come to market, and I can't wait. Christina in Los Angeles, your question or thought for Jodi Rash. Hi there. I called in just when you all were talking about subsidies from the government. So I guess I won't be asking about that, but apparently that is a major issue and challenge, correct, for plant-based products. So I guess I'll stick my question to something else. I keep hearing that we're trying to get cutting-edge investment companies involved in alternative plant proteins.

35:49 I'd like to get insight, if it's not already been discussed, about how do we utilise what has traditionally been used in the investment world of investors and stock folks who create this hype over certain technologies or products or new methods of manufacturing. I mean, they create this to get everybody on board. In the past, I mean, whether it's legit or not, and they create this to get publicity and to, it's partly educational, right? Now everybody's reading about their stock portfolios.

36:31 I mean, can we also do that for all these alternative plant-based protein industries and companies and use the same sort of trick or phenomenon that's been used in investment world for centuries? Thank you. Go ahead. Thanks, Christina. Yeah, I mean, I think we are using the techniques. I mean, we're using venture capital that's going into this market is actually not just vegan funds or funds that specialise in it. You have mainstream investors who are in this, what Bill Gates said, the future of food is vegan.

37:17 So it is getting that hype, but just like any area that gets the hype, the question is, do you create bubbles? And so that's kind of what's going on with vegan companies right now. I think as Jane said, you said before, I think a lot of the vegan companies are being attacked somewhat unfairly, when they start talking about Beyond Burger and it's not healthy. Well, it certainly is. And they really admit it. It certainly is healthier than the alternative, but then they say, well, look how many ingredients they have. Yeah, that's true. But none of those ingredients are meat and meat is only one ingredient, but it has huge ecological and health costs to it, not to mention ethical costs.

38:05 So just because it's one ingredient doesn't mean it's healthy. I mean, I wouldn't need an arsenic burger. That would be one ingredient as well. So those types of attacks are somewhat disingenuous, but we have to weather those. And right now the investment market is, particularly the venture capital market, there's a lot of contraction in that market, which is hurting companies that need money to grow. But I think that's beginning to come to an end. So people kind of be loosening up their purse strings a little bit more and it should be getting to be a little bit easier for these companies to raise money. Yeah, and I was just over at Beyond Meat headquarters.

38:46 Unchained TV is putting together a profile that's coming out soon. They have a new 4.0. And what I said was, look, processed meat is officially cancer causing. Okay, so anything that's an alternative to processed meat is much healthier. And so you're dealing with a product on the one hand that's a carcinogen, and the other hand is a bunch of vegetables mushed together. And nonetheless, they've decided to take the challenge and come up with an even healthier product. And it's called Beyond Meat 4.0. It's hitting the store shelves and I tried it. It's absolutely delicious.

39:27 It has 75% less saturated fat than an average burger. And it's just really delicious. So I think that's a great response to criticism. Just say, okay, yeah, you want it healthier? We'll make it even healthier. And I think that's the kind of response that's going to win out in the end, right, Jody? Yeah, absolutely. I think the vegan market is going through various changes. The first thing was just have anything out there. And you'd have burgers that come out of a cardboard box. You weren't sure which you should eat. And then they went to, I would say, Vegan 2.0, where the products tasted good, but in order to get them to taste good, they had probably more fat and salts and things like that than you needed.

40:18 And now we're going through, I think, the next phase where people think that vegan is healthier for you. It is, but now I think what people are looking for is even healthier vegan alternatives. And that's why what you said about what Beyond Burger is doing is great. And I think there's going to be more and more companies that are going to be coming out that are offering vegan options that truly are healthy and tasty. Are you concerned at all about the state of the vegan business world right now, given that, and I was in mainstream media for more than three decades, and I know a concerted attack when I see one.

41:03 When Beyond Meat went public in 2019, it was the most successful IPO since the 2008 financial crisis. It skyrocketed. Everybody was talking about it. Well, of course, it couldn't sustain that high level. And as you said, you create a bubble with all that excitement, and then it's like you build them up and then you knock them down. That's what the media does. It does that with celebrities. It does that with some companies. Where do you see vegan business, let's say, in five years? Yeah, I mean, I think that fundamentally the concept of vegan foods and other products and vegan investing is solid.

41:45 Like you said, it goes through its ups and downs. It's in a down phase right now because of some of the media hype. But I think coming out with these new products that actually are healthy will help overcome that. I think there's a huge pent-up demand for healthy products. And quite honestly, if you have animal products in it, it's not healthy, no matter what. So I think there's a huge potential demand. So I think five years is probably a good timeframe to look at some of the companies that are in this market now, I think really exploding. The thing that I'm most concerned about is getting them through the next year, year and a half, because the availability of investment funds has been a challenge.

42:39 Tom Vansell asks, what's the best vegan investment to make? That would be great to know. You know how Motley Fool says, if you had $1,000, you should invest in, well, let's play that game. Well, the first problem is that most vegan companies, except for like Beyond Meat and some of those, you have to be an accredited investor, which is a strict legal definition. I think it's income of over $200,000 for the last two years, or net income of over, I think it's a million dollars. I'm not 100% sure what the rules are.

43:20 So if you're not an accredited investor, you have very limited opportunity to invest in non -public companies. So there is a index out there called VGN, vegan, that- I think it's V -E-G-N. Yes, you're right, V-E-G-N, that basically invests in publicly traded companies that don't specifically use animal products. And they also, whatever publicly available plant-based companies, they also invest in them. And they've tracked the S&P 500 quite well, in fact, have outperformed it.

44:03 Now, Beyond Impact, which I'm associated with, they didn't come up with it, but the woman who started Beyond Impact, the fund, this was an idea that she had, and that she's made this very, very successful. So that's, at this point, if you're not an accredited investor, the best way to do it. If you are an accredited investor, typically putting your money in a fund like Beyond Impact would be the way to go because you get diversification. But just remember, when you're investing in venture capital, you only invest as much as you can afford to lose. So this is not something you put your 401k in or other money that you need for retirement.

44:45 This is money that if all the companies crash and you totally lose it, it's like, you're not happy about it, but it's not going to impact your lifestyle. Yeah, and I guess full disclosure, I didn't know we were gonna talk about VEGN, but I have a little of VEGN just as a disclosure. Okay, here you go, your art. Yes. It's absolutely extraordinary, and it's based on what? The underlying imagery for all of my art is based on scientific themes. So the ones you have here, the one on the left is based on a galaxy, and the one on the right, I believe, is a white blood cell. So the main themes that I use are physics, radio astronomy, and electron microscopy.

45:33 I branch out somewhat from those areas as well, but I've actually, after many, many years, I've gone back, I'm actually talking to you from my studio. I've gone back to school to get my third degree. I have a BA in economics, I have an MBA in finance, and now I'm going for my MFA in painting. All right, well, you're making me feel bad. By the way, I'm the oldest student in the class. You're making me feel bad. I'm gonna get cracking on that piano and that French that I always say I'm gonna learn, and I never do. Caribbean. Yeah, and I just wanted to throw up some of the other companies. There are many that Beyond Impact has helped.

46:15 Now, some of them we've heard of, like Wicked Kitchen's quite well-known, but some of them are a little less well-known. What is the statistical chance of any company succeeding? Like, sometimes people are saying, well, a lot of these vegan companies aren't succeeding. First of all, the ones that have succeeded, like Tofurky, like Daiya, like Violife, like Silk Soymilk, I could go on and on. They've been acquired by big conglomerates. Is that not the case? Yeah, yeah. So the basic rule with venture capital is that half the companies you invest in will go bankrupt. So you'll lose everything on them. And then another 10 to 20%, you'll either break even or you'll make a little bit of money or lose a little bit of money on them.

47:03 So what you're looking at really is maybe 10% of your company. So one company in 10, that's gonna be a big winner. And what they say is half your advertising is worthless. You just don't know which half. It's kind of like the same thing in venture capital is that you know that 80 % of your companies are not gonna give you a return, but you just don't know what 80%. So you go into these companies, you hope for a Beyond Burger or one of those is in your portfolio. So you just gotta look at the different industries, where the potential is and take your chances, which is why I said, this is not a field for the faint of heart.

47:53 You need to, people go into this, they understand the risks. If they end up losing it all, that's life, they go on. If they get one hit out of that, that could give them 20, 30% return on their total investment. So that's what they're looking for. Yeah, it's funny because people always say, well, if you had invested in and then they named these companies, whether it's Amazon or Apple, way back when, way back when we didn't know which ones were gonna be the big ones. So- Well, look, given that I have the book out, I'm glad Amazon did well. Yes, well, let's get back to that.

48:33 The Silver Forest, I have an advanced copy. You can order it now on Amazon. I've been diving into it. It's really fascinating. And this is the first of a trilogy. And I expect you wanna turn this into a movie at some point, right? I would love to. I would love to. So if you've got any contacts in that business, Jane, let me know. Again, I'm just flabbergasted at the incredible amount of accomplishments you have across the board. So many different things, but everybody get this. It's available on Amazon for pre-order. It's coming out very soon. And I really hope that everybody supports this.

49:15 Again, this is somebody who has done so much for our movement, is always giving to others, always helping other organisations. So let's give him a little boost and order and read his book. And I gotta tell you, I think it's absolutely fantastic. We've got one minute. What are your final thoughts? What would you like to tell people in general about bringing this all together? Yeah, I think, you know, in order to really make veganism more mainstream, you have to attack it from a lot of different areas, which is, I guess, one of the reasons why I ended up doing so many different things.

49:56 And, you know, just like the book, I think what was important for me is that the main character is vegan, but I don't make a big deal about that. It just happens to be the way he is. It's just natural. And so there's not big discussions about veganism and all this stuff in the book. It's just part of a normal life. And that's what I think we need to do. So we need to take a lot of different and disparate areas, investing, art, writing, and just make it part of the community. I love what you just said. It's not a big deal. It's just what he is. And hopefully everybody will get that message that it's not like a conversion to some extreme group.

50:45 It's just, you know, a healthy, compassionate way of living that we can all embrace. It's a joyous adventure, not a sacrifice. And thank you so much, Jodi Rash. I also wanna urge everybody, please download the Unshamed TV app. It is 100% free. It is the world's only vegan streaming television network available on your phone. You just put Unshamed TV right into your app store and download it for free. It's also free to watch on any TV. It's on all Samsung TVs and on any TV with Amazon Fire Stick, Roku device or Apple TV device. So please download Unshamed TV and join our happy, joyous community fighting for animals, speaking for them because they can't speak for themselves.

51:33 See you next.