UnchainedTV: New Bestseller Reveals Secret to Saving Animals

0:00 Jump to the next phase of human evolution? All it takes is one simple choice. Now here's your host, Jane Velez Mitchell. We've got an exciting show for you because we're talking to Judy Mancuso, and she has an instant bestseller. It's called Because They Need Us, and she reveals the secrets of how she's been the driving force behind almost 30 laws that protect animals. Her book, I couldn't put it down, it reads like a thriller. She goes up against these very powerful interests that exploit animals, and now she is here to tell us exactly how she did it, along with the right-hand man, Nick Sackett. Together, they run Social Compassion in Legislation, and she has passed almost 30 bills to save animals.

0:48 Do you know how hard that is? 30 bills. I am very excited to introduce the one and only Judy Mancuso. Hopefully, you'll get her book because I literally could not put it down. I was reading it until midnight last night. Judy, you start out with this incredible story of how you went up against a very powerful man representing a very powerful industry, and you spoke truth to power. Tell us about that. Sometimes, we find ourselves fighting bills.

1:29 The goal of my group was to bring legislation forward that saves and protects animals, but at the same time, there's other folks doing legislation that would harm animals. That is what we were faced with. California had banned the sale of crocodile and alligator skins in the 70s. Now, all of a sudden, there was a sunset, meaning that the law could go away, whether it would get reinstated or not.

2:11 There was a move to do away with this law from the alligator breeders in Louisiana, and so we had to pivot to fight that bill because we didn't want the cruelty and that market to start back up. A guy walks in to a meeting room. What happened? Well, he proceeded to tell me that we had common ground, which we did not. Then, he actually segued into offering us money to go away and stop fighting the bill because we had killed a couple versions of it, and they were trying to get another one going.

3:05 He offered us money. How much money? Well, at first, it was $500,000. Wow. You said? No. Why would I take money from an industry that I am 100% against and trying to prevent from proliferating in our state? It would be opposite to our values. He was trying to- Then, what did he do? Well, he was trying to tell me, but I could use it to further our work. Then, the number went up to, what about $1 million?

3:48 You could spread it around to some of your friends, too. I wasn't having any of it. It just wasn't going to happen, so we ended the conversation, and he left in a huff. You have worked with so many celebrities. There's Pierce Brosnan, and there you are with the governors of the state of California, Bob Barker, so many. There you are with Hillary Clinton. They're in a group that's Jean-Paul D 'Aujourd and, of course, Joaquin Phoenix. You have mobilised celebrities, and this is your battle to pass the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act.

4:35 Tell us about that because that may very well be your most famous piece of legislation. How did you get the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act passed? I always wanted to do something. I dreamed about stopping animal testing because it is the cruellest of cruel and how many animals die, but I just couldn't imagine how to make a dent in it, and it's such an enormous industry. I met Dr. Neil Bernard with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and he congratulated me on the work that I was doing.

5:18 Of course, I admire his work so much. He said, maybe we could join forces in the future. We had a brainstorming session with him and his staff, and we came up with what if we could pass a law in the state of California, which is the fifth largest economy in the world, and that would stop selling cosmetics and personal hygiene products that have been tested on animals. It seemed like an enormous, tall order, but if we could move the market, then this would further the market of cruelty-free, which is what people want anyway, a lot of people want, and do away with these cruel personal hygiene products and cosmetics.

6:22 We got an author, which was Senator Kathleen Galgiani, and off we went. That's a photo you're showing of one of our big press conferences, and we got it done. It's the law in California and has been copied in, I don't know, maybe 11 states. It changes every year, so I don't know what the current number is. This is a way to affect change in our state with 40 million people, fifth largest economy, but then have a ripple effect across the world, across other states.

7:04 You're saving animals exponentially. Nick Sackett, I want to bring you in because you have worked so closely with Judy Mancuso. There's so much legislation here that you guys have passed, almost 30 bills that have been copied. Many of them have been copied. They get passed here in California, which, as Judy mentioned, is the fifth largest economy in the world. They get copied in other places like New York, for example, which is another very important state. How do you do it? What do you think the secret sauce is that makes social compassion and legislation so effective?

7:48 Thanks, Jane. I have to say it's Judy's and our longevity in Sacramento that is tremendously helpful. Legislators in Sacramento, they know who we are. If they have questions about laws pertaining to animals, many times they will reach out to us directly rather than us going to them. Judy has been working on these issues in California for decades now. She has a long history up and down the state. I think that's number one. Number two is we're always looking to collaborate with other groups, PETA, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, Centre for Biological Diversity.

8:36 Anyone who wants to work in a coalition to get things done, we're willing to do that. I think that's number two. Number three is just our commitment to the cause. Like Judy said, we turned down a million dollars just to not oppose a bill. People see that. They didn't see that until Judy wrote it in the book because it was behind closed doors, but it's a reflection of our values that we don't back down from our values. That's how we get things done over the years. Well, you really have become a force in Sacramento.

9:16 Given that California is the fifth largest economy in the world, that means you are a force across the United States, as well as the world, as other states and even other nations pick up on some of the things you've done. Now, one of the biggest and one of the earliest things you did was the licence plate called the Pet Lover's Licence Plate. It's the Spay and Neuter Saves Lives Licence Plate. I have one. Tell us about this and how it raises money for spay-neuter and how people can still get it to this day. I think everybody who is driving a car in California should have one of these licence plates.

9:59 How do they get it and why is it important? Well, if they did have it, we could solve our pet overpopulation problem because there's over 30 million registered vehicles in the state of California. We wouldn't need every one of them to solve it, but boy, if we had a big share of it, we could. You go to dmv.ca.gov and when you're registering your vehicle, there's a place where you can choose a speciality plate. When it brings down the list, you pick the Pet Lover's Plate.

10:41 $40 from your registration every year goes into a fund. Then once a year, that money gets distributed to providers of spay and neuter, which can be shelters or vet clinics. Right now, we're at $2.3 million that has been raised through the plate. That's an impressive number and it is so exciting, but it could be so much more. Thank you for bringing that up because I'd love to urge everyone in California, please get a Pet Lover's Licence Plate.

11:27 We need you. Now, California is in the midst of a pet overpopulation crisis. How do I know? Because I have two pets. This one, whose name is Wednesday, somebody tried to drop her at a shelter and the shelter actually said, we have no room. Put her back where you found her. Luckily, somebody heard this who was a rescuer and grabbed her. She had no identification, nothing. This is a crisis. The shelters are overflowing. Why is that happening? How does the Pet Lover's Licence Plate and all of your efforts fit into that, Judy?

12:09 Well, it's overbreeding and oops litters and people getting animals from out of state, out of country. So unaltered animals having many, many litters that find their way into the shelters and then there's not enough space. So the shelters euthanise the animals and that's what pet overpopulation is. When we are literally killing animals, putting them down because we don't have enough space, we can't hold them, we can't help them to get adopted.

12:56 That is an overpopulation crisis. And we've been working on legislation over the years to mitigate it, which has been helpful. Our microchipping bill, one of the problems when animals come into shelters, the reason why we can't get them back home is because they lack identification. So we did a microchip bill that requires every dog, cat leaving a shelter to be microchipped. And that way, if they find their way into a shelter, you scan them or maybe not even in a shelter.

13:37 A lot of times if they're just out in running the streets and animal control or Good Samaritan with a reader can scan them, find out where they live, contact the owner and get them back home. And then we did another bill that kicked puppy mills out of pet shops so that only rescue or shelter animals could be in pet shops. So, I mean, bottom line is it's overbreeding too many animals and not enough homes. But it's also a problem with the powers that be, not recognising that spay and neuter is the answer.

14:17 Obviously you spay one animal and you prevent dozens, hundreds, even thousands of animals down the road from being born. Why is it that more isn't being done? We've got this pet lover's licence plate. I mean, is all that money being used to spay and neuter animals? There's something really wrong. And it seems that it's so obvious what the solution is, spay neuter, and yet animals are being put down all across the state of California, Judy. Well, it is all getting used for the spay and neuter.

14:58 There's a little bit that's taken for administration fees, meaning overhead. The California Department of Food and Ag oversee it. So there's some money taken out to pay their staff for the time to gather the grants, distribute the funds, but overall it is getting used. It's just not enough is the problem. There are literally hundreds of thousands of animals that are getting put down. So we need an enormous amount of money to spay and neuter so that we can get all the animals spayed and neutered that their family can't afford it.

15:46 And then most recently, we have a shortage of veterinarians in the state and registered veterinary technicians. So there's also a professional shortage that we are trying to address. So, I mean, this is a crisis. I think everybody's acknowledging that it's a crisis. You're doing incredible work, but you can't do it alone. Nick, what are your thoughts about what we need to do to fix this problem? I happen to live in Los Angeles. It's a huge problem in Los Angeles, but it's apparently up and down the state. Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the hardest things to do in politics is to get that ounce of prevention so that you don't need a pound of cure.

16:36 And so that's the problem with getting money up front to do more spay and neutering so that we don't have this pet overpopulation crisis. Thankfully, I do think that there is movement politically in that legislators and other folks, mayors, county supervisors, they are seeing the wall. And I feel like we are on the precipice of a breakthrough where maybe we can get that prevention so that we're not spending so much on the cure later. Absolutely.

17:17 But let's talk about some brighter subjects when it comes to animals, specifically dogs. You passed the Dining With Dogs bill, which you go into depth here in your book because they need us. And I'm happy to say I was a part of this whole effort. And it really has revolutionised our relationship with dogs because we can take them places. Before you passed the Dining With Dogs bill, we couldn't go to outdoor patios, and it really penalised and persecuted dog owners. So Judy, tell us about the passage of the Dining With Dogs Act, which passed here in California and then it passed in New York too.

18:02 Well, absolutely. I mean, at first, when I first got my dogs, I thought that it was fine to bring your dogs to an outdoor patio because I would see them there. And I went to a restaurant, they said, no, you can't have your dogs here. And I said, well, but we just did it at another one of your restaurants like two weeks ago. And they said, no, it's a law. And I said, well, that's a law that needs to be changed. So I went home and dug through the code on the California legislation website and found that sure enough, dogs were prohibited from being in a restaurant, whether it was inside or outside, unless they were a service dog.

18:55 So we moved a piece of legislation in California that said, if a restaurant had an outdoor patio area, and if they elected to allow animals, dogs to come, they would need to be on leash. They need to stay on the ground. There was a whole list of things that the California Department of Public Health required. So we ran the legislation, we had the restaurant association with us, and it was a no-brainer, and really was, and got to the finish line and signed into law.

19:39 So we made it so that now, if a restaurant has this opportunity that they have the outdoor area, that they allow it. And these two have gone to so many restaurants, I can't tell you, they are about town, but that was a really, really popular bill. And it was something that everybody could get behind. And it's too bad that some of the more controversial ones aren't quite as popular, but you do have bipartisan support for a lot of your bills. Isn't it true, Nick, that sometimes the only thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is that they love their dogs?

20:22 Absolutely. We work with Democrats and Republicans all the time, particularly on companion animal issues, Republicans will line up to support. We worked on a bill to get rid of dogs that were kept to give their blood in cages their entire life. We worked with a Republican legislator to end that practise or to phase it out in California. We are working with, last year we worked with a Republican legislator to help raise breeder standards and get shelter animals online.

21:03 So these kinds of issues, they have to be bipartisan. In California, Democrats do have a super majority, but that does not mean that we disregard Republicans. We work across the aisle all the time. So let me ask you guys, I want to get back to the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act, because to me, you've passed so many bills, almost 30, and these are historic, ground -changing, groundbreaking bills. But in my eyes, the Cruelty-Free Cosmetics Act was just a monumental achievement because there were so many powerful forces against what you were doing.

21:47 So many industries were up against you. However, according to this book, you got two very successful corporations to get behind you. One was John Paul Mitchell, which is the beauty products, completely cruelty-free, and the other is Lush. Why was getting those two companies so instrumental in defeating the opposition, which were also companies who didn't want to change, Judy? Because they had already implemented a cruelty-free business model.

22:28 John Paul DeJoy started his company with a friend, I think it was 1975 or so, John Paul Mitchell products. And so he lived it, and for decades, being a very successful company, dealing with the supply chain, making sure everything was cruelty-free, and the same with Lush, who had 300 stores in North America, I believe the number was at the time. So when we first introduced the bill and we met with the opposition, the first thing they said was, okay, well, you're going to make everybody go out of business, and they're going to move all their operations offshore, and all these American jobs are going to be lost, and there's no way to be able to prove in the supply chain that everything is cruelty-free.

23:32 And if we didn't have these enormous companies, successful companies on our side to be able to push back and say, it just isn't true, and here's why, and we've been doing it, we wouldn't have been able to get it done. It was mission critical to have them. And here again is you at the state capitol in Sacramento with a bunch of people fighting for this bill, and obviously the giant wrap provided by PETA, which is one of the organisations you work with very closely, along with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, you as a team of organisations pushing this, you also had a lot of celebrities, and we've already established that you do work with a lot of celebrities, but what was the role that celebrities played, Judy, in pushing this over the finish line and other bills over the finish line?

24:34 How do you utilise the celebrities? Well, you know, the products manufacturers, they sign on celebrities for millions and millions of dollars to sell their products, and it's just that they have a bigger audience. People listen to them, they respect them, and so if someone is saying, Bob Barker, Spay and Uter saves lives at the end of all of his shows throughout his lifetime, you know, that really helps because, I mean, there's a very small amount of people that know who I am, but boy, do they know who Bob Barker is, or Pierce Brosnan, or Jean-Paul DuJour walking Phoenix, so it just makes an enormous difference to have their voice and their audiences pay attention to these really important issues that otherwise they may not hear about.

25:42 Well, I was there when you had celebrities like Alicia Silverstone show up in Sacramento and then walk around and meet the legislators, and they go gaga. They are just like anybody else. When they see a celebrity, they get all excited, and it really lets you get your foot in the door and get into those offices because they're not going to turn Alicia Silverstone down and say, no, you can't come in. That's exactly right. They do. They enjoy it. They like meeting them. They want to hear what they have to say. You know, in Hollywood, everybody sees celebrities at restaurants walking down the street, but it's not exactly the same in Sacramento.

26:28 So, you know, when the celebrities come, yes, they get attention, and definitely it's fun for everyone. Let's talk about the time that you heard that, I believe it was the California Department of Fish and Wildlife, had decided to basically put out a hit on a mountain lion, and these mountain lions, many environmental organisations are desperate to save them, and yet here we have our government going out and basically saying we're going to kill them. So what happened there? Because that was something where social compassion and legislation like moved into action very rapidly. Yeah, this goes back to what I was saying at the beginning of the show where, you know, yes, the group was founded to run legislation and do things that are positive impacts for animals, saving and protecting them.

27:23 But sometimes we hear about things that we have to go to battle and fight. And what was on the news in the evening on the radio was that there was a mountain lion that was beloved, P-42, or P-45, I think. Yeah, P-45 was this one. And he had eaten or attacked some alpacas, which is terrible. I mean, we all love alpacas too, but the bottom line was the people had brought these animals from outside the country, had them in mountain lion territory, and they weren't protected.

28:11 So, you know, to kill a mountain lion that we're trying to save from going extinct because it's doing what a mountain lion would do was absurd. And so, yeah, we jumped into gear and we raised a lot of noise and ruckus over it and were able to stop it and ended up helping the rancher to build an enclosure for the alpacas. And you had a news conference. And for those who are watching, we're looking at a snapshot from the news conference.

28:52 Well, we kind of took over. We had heard that there was going to be a meeting in Agora Hills about this issue and safety that Fish and Game was having. And we decided to try to get there and have a press conference prior to their meeting to put pressure on them to not kill P-45. So it was, some were calling it a guerrilla press conference because we had sent out the press release and somehow Fish and Game didn't get the memo.

29:36 And what had happened is, gosh, I mean, there was probably a half dozen to a dozen news trucks there. Before I got there, I left Laguna Beach trying to get to Agora Hills. It was like a Friday and it took me over three hours to get there. And when I pulled in, the outside was just lined with news trucks with their satellite dishes up and everybody was like, get on the stage, get on the stage, hurry. And I ran to the stage and began our little press conference, which turned out to be very big and was on every channel and was on a major morning show.

30:18 But it all worked and we were able to save his life. And it's all described in this book. Now, if people donate to Social Compassion and Legislation, $30 or more, they can get the book sent to them for free. And I have to tell you, these anecdotes that we're discussing, they really play out in very dramatic fashion. Like I said, this book, it's not, yes, it's about laws and legislation, but it really reads like a thriller because you have so many dramatic moments where people are trying to shut you down. People are offering you a million dollars. People are threatening you. There were some phrases that I learned that I didn't know existed.

31:02 So I'd like you to define them. And they come up in the book. What does it mean astro-turfing, Nick Sackett? What is astro-turfing? Oh, geez. Astro-turfing. Judy, this is a term that you've used before. So I'm going to toss that back over to Judy. Well, that was in reference to hiring people to look like they are support or opposition to a bill. So what had happened, this was on the FER bill, that when there's people opposing a bill, but they don't actually have people who are opposed to the bill.

31:49 It's just the industry. They will go and hire people to come and act like they are opposition to the bill. And that's what that was referring to in that chapter. Yeah. And in this book, you describe how in this legislative hearing, all these people come up against your bill and you tell one of the legislators, those people are hired and she doesn't believe you. And you have to go and do some investigative work to prove it. Tell us about that. Well, yeah, no, I could tell they were hired right away. I mean, after being at the Capitol for 17 years, you learn a lot and it is by experience.

32:36 It's not something that you get taught in a university. So when these folks came to the microphone one after another, I said, they're hired. And Julie, who was with me at the time said, how do you know that? And I said, well, I just feel that they are, I said, but I'm sure we could probably find some proof. And so Julie went and start investigating. She did the digging and sure enough found Facebook pages and others that were recruiting people to be a part of this opposition.

33:21 And then when you went to the website that they were promoting, they were actually paying, they were recruiting students and paying them a hundred dollars each to come and testify against this bill. So that's AstroTurfing. I've seen that quite a few times when I've gone to animal organisations, having a gala, particularly PETA and you see these people with signs, PETA kills or whatever. And I asked them a question, well, tell me what's your argument? No clue because they're being paid. You can tell that they're being paid. So beware when you see people who are going up against an organisation like PETA, which you work with very closely and they're making all sorts of accusations and you try to get details.

34:09 They have no clue because they're actually being paid by the hour. I even saw one go on break because they had to go on a lunch break, which is not what activists do. They don't say, okay, I'm going to drop my sign and go on my lunch break and come back. So some of the other phrases that I learned reading your book, you got to read this, people. It really is so interesting. And I learned so much NASCAR letters. What are NASCAR letters? I'll let Nick take this one because he's always having to do them. A NASCAR letter, for those who don't know NASCAR, a lot of the drivers that drive these cars, it's race car driving.

34:54 On their uniform, they will have patches of all of their sponsors. And so they just have McDonald's and mobile and they're covered. And so sometimes when we need to turn in a support letter or an opposition letter against a bill or for a bill, and we want to get a lot of organisations to sign on to that letter, we have to get their logos and their signatures and we slap them onto a letter. And the first page, sometimes into the second page will just be their logos. So we call that a NASCAR letter. And it's just a big group of organisations that are opposing or supporting a bill.

35:36 While I have you, what's relational lobbying? Relational lobbying is really what it sounds like. You have a relationship with a legislator and so you're going to have access to that legislator based on your history, based on how they know you, not necessarily based on the policy that's being discussed at hand. So having those relationships is key because if they don't know who you are and you really need to talk to them about a particular bill, you're relying on that relationship. And what about lobbying up? That's another phrase that comes up.

36:17 Lobbying up is hiring as many lobbyists as you possibly can. And I think what that's referring to in the book is during the cosmetic fight, the opposition hired tonnes of lobbyists. We were in a meeting, an initial meeting about the bill, and the opposition walked in with 10, 12 lobbyists. And there we were with just me, Judy, and our contract lobbyists and a couple of scientists, but no other lobbyists. And so lobbying up is getting that lobby firepower so that as soon as the opposition sends their lobbyists in, well, we can send our lobbyists in and counter their arguments.

37:05 And you have had a lot of success, Judy, because some very, very important people who are people of means have seen what you're doing. They love animals and they've donated. Let's talk a little bit about Dr. Gary Michelson who has had such a profound impact on your efforts. Well, that's right. When I first started back in 2007, I was doing it on my own dollar, but found out very quickly, which I discuss in depth in the book, of how I needed to get organised.

37:49 And organised means having representation, having lobbyists, having a big grassroots support network. And even like Nick was saying, getting to know legislators that you're not just a one -hit wonder, that you're going to be there year after year after year. And so Dr. Michelson was one of the first people I met along with another man named Stephen Bernheim. And we did a meeting in Los Angeles and everyone invited everyone to come hear what I was doing.

38:31 I was going to form my nonprofit and that we needed to raise funds to start hiring lobbyists and become a real group. And so that's where it all started. And they have been supporting my group since then, along with a lot of others that whether it's a $5 donation every month, $1 ,000 here, 5,000, 10,000. I mean, it's taken a lot to be able to afford running these bills. And that's why it wasn't getting done before.

39:13 And I also talk about my frustration with the big groups who sit on outside of PETA and PCRM, Centre for Biological Diversity, these groups we work with. But there's many groups that make lots, hundreds of millions of dollars that they're just literally have in the bank and that they spend more money on operations and fundraising than anything else. So my little group, we are doing really big things and relying on folks like Dr. Michelson, Stephen, and all the small donors, everybody to keep us going.

39:58 Now, let's talk a little bit about why you are perfectly positioned to influence not just California and the world. As we've mentioned, California is the fifth largest economy in the world, but it's also a trend leader. And you know what they say, what happens in Hollywood spreads to the rest of the nation and the world. The Dining with Dogs Act was a perfect example. You go into it in the book, how it passed here in California. And then I happened to be in New York at the time and I was like, dang, I had three Chihuahua mixes and I wanted to go to restaurants. And you brought your act to New York and we got it passed.

40:39 Tell us about how you're able to do that. It was not a small task, and I have you to thank to be a huge part of that. So I had my lobbyist in California gave me some recommendations of some firms in New York. So I flew to New York, I interviewed the lobbyist, we went and spoke with a legislator, assembly member Linda Rosenthal from Manhattan, who happens to be a huge animal lover and would be strong enough to carry this legislation.

41:24 Because there's a lot of legislators, they don't want to stick their neck out for animals. They just don't. But she had a reputation that she absolutely would. And so met with the assembly member, met with lobbyist, raised money, hired them. And then actually without your help, Jane, we wouldn't have gotten it done with the grassroots support in New York. And Nick also at the time was not working with us in California. He was in New York and just donating his time pro bono to us at that point.

42:08 And he was able to go to some of those hearings and meetings too. So we got it done. And that was our first out of state effort. Let's talk a little bit about the most important issue that affects the most animals, and that's our food system. And it's very sad because the number of animals killed for food is not going down, unfortunately. I mean, literally, globally, it's 90 billion animals every year. I can't even say it because it's so mind boggling. And you can see the majority are chickens. And then, of course, the environmental impact. Here's a New York Times article.

42:48 It says vegans are responsible for 75% less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters. Obviously, if people transition to a plant-based lifestyle, they're going to have a much lower carbon footprint. Now, you've been able to do some things here in California to encourage a plant-based lifestyle in hospitals, prisons, and schools. Tell us about that. Well, I will tell you personally, I went vegan over 30 years ago now. And I know that we can't do enough to promote it and to help people maintain the diet they choose and to help get supported in school.

43:36 So the first bill that we did mandated plant-based meal options in hospitals and other kind of medical facilities and prisons. We originally had schools in it, but that got taken out because we knew that that was going to be too big of a fight and that there would need to be some funding to go along with that. So then we addressed schools later in a funding bill to give money towards plant-based food and milk in schools.

44:17 So we did get that done. It was a huge accomplishment, but obviously there's always more to do. And yeah. Okay. I think I need a clarification because what happened exactly with the schools? Because we understand that to this day, there are students who have to get a doctor's note and there's been even lawsuits. So just elaborate on that a little bit. Yeah. Well, and I can pass it to Nick because he worked intimately on it as well. So go ahead, take it Nick. Sure. At first, we tried to pass a bill to set up a permanent grant programme.

45:01 But just to give you a quick reason, the Cattlemen's Association and the other animal ag industries came in and said they didn't want vegan propaganda in our schools, which made us all kind of snicker because they've been in our schools promoting got milk for decades. In any case, two years ago, we were able to get a hundred million dollars in the California budget to help schools upgrade their kitchens to serve plant-based meals, including, and milks. So, you know, that has, and we partnered with Friends of the Earth on that effort, who gets into schools and really helps them develop their plant-based programmes.

45:50 And all of that money, hundred million dollars worth money went to those kinds of upgrades and training staff so that they can cook plant-based meals. Because if you have kitchen staff that, you know, doesn't know what to do, and they just usually are used to taking a hamburger and slapping it together, well, then that's what they're going to serve the kids. But once they have that knowledge and that training, then they can broaden the plant-based meals. And that's exactly what the funding was for. Have you had a chance to see how it's going? Has there been any audit or examination of how schools are implementing? Because implementation is one of the key aspects of legislation.

46:30 I mean, I will talk to Prop 2 and Prop 12 passed by the voters of California saying they want certain standards for animals that are being bred for food in the state. And to my knowledge, there's never been a prosecution based on either of those propositions, even though there've been many examples of undercover investigations that show that terrible things are happening and prosecutors, district attorneys in various counties being pleaded with, please enforce this law that the California voters passed. And they just refuse to do it because they're beholden somehow to industry.

47:14 Yeah, absolutely. It's a big problem. Enforcement of animal cruelty laws is a big problem across California and across the nation. You know, I'll give you an example. Puppy mills, they are supposed to be regulated by the USDA. And most puppy millers are breaking all the Animal Welfare Act provisions, but they only get a slap on the wrist if that. So what you're saying is a huge problem. We need more whistleblowers. We need people from within these corporations to speak out because local DAs and city attorneys, they just don't want to take the word of activists who are bringing them evidence.

48:03 Well, let me just say this. It's not the word. There's many organisations that have gone videotaping what's happening in factory farms in California and showing the horrors and presented with concrete evidence on videotape of what's happening. And the district attorneys refuse to prosecute. It's not taking anybody's word. Right, right. No, it's special interest having a death grip on our local jurisdictions, on legislators. I mean, that's another thing that the book is about, is just how hard, even though you've got the proof, to move people because of the special interest grip.

48:53 And that's a huge piece of it. We have done auditing at the state level. We just got some audit results about forest risk commodities being purchased by the state of California that had to do with our efforts with the Deforestation Free Procurement Act. We did an audit on the pet lovers licence plate to make sure that every dollar was going to where it needed to go and was being spent properly. So we have done audits at the state, which has been mission critical, and they do an incredible job.

49:35 But what you're talking about, about auditing prisons and schools, about plant-based meals and hospitals, it takes a lot of labour to call and spot check. And this is something that my group has been discussing and looking into how we can start doing that and doing some audits ourselves that are more informal, but reaching out to these facilities and asking for the menus. So that's something that we are looking at, Jane, and something we're very interested in and wanting to work with PETA and PCRM and the other groups that helped us over the years to get these things passed and now going back and making sure that they're getting enforced.

50:28 And it's a process, not an event. The first step is to pass the law, which you have done. You can't be asked to do everything under the sun, although I know you try. But when it comes to hospitals, I've personally had a number of people say that they cited that law and said, you have to give me, and what they were given was not substantial. In other words, there's resistance. And the people in these hospitals feel like, I either don't want to do it or they challenged the law. Just the other day, I was at a place and they said, your dog is not allowed outside.

51:09 And I said, yes, it is. This is a restaurant and there's something called the Dining with Dogs Act. And he asked me for the bill and I called Nick. And I said, Nick, will you send me that legislation? Now, the funny part is by the time I went back to the restaurant, that person had been let go. Not the friendliest person on the planet, let's put it that way. But I had to actually, I was planning on showing this person the law and saying, yes, we're allowed as long as the owner of the restaurant, and you're not the owner, as long as the owner allows, and they did, we're entitled to have our dogs on this patio. So it's really passing the law is the first thing, but then it's enforcement. And I'd really like to see more enforcement with the hospitals, because obviously people are going in there because they're suffering from whatever.

51:59 Cancer, heart disease, a lot of this has been linked to dairy. Processed meat is officially cancer causing, according to the World Health Organisation. So the idea that they're flouting this law that you struggled so hard to pass is outrageous, Judy. Yes. And we have helped people in hospitals before that were like, hey, they're not giving me a plant-based meal, and we sent them the legislation as well. And just in talking about this, I think that we probably need to have a special tab on our website that says, need help with enforcement, and maybe giving recommendations on A, just linking to the laws so people can have it quickly to show people, or knowing who to call within the local jurisdiction or whether it's at the state to report that they're not following the law.

53:00 So that is something we should look into, and I'm glad it came up. Well, a lot of things come up in these conversations. We often get to that point where we're brainstorming on our podcasts. We've got to wrap. So please give us your final thoughts. What's next? Well, we've been trying to eliminate teachers using live animal dissection in schools. And it is not mandatory. There's nothing in law that says that they shall do it.

53:40 They elect to do it. So we've had a couple of attempts at trying to get rid of it, and we're going to go back at it this year. So that's one thing that we're working on. The other action that we're looking into is to bring out of state veterinarians in state to be able to do high volume spay and neuter. So to get them a licence, to be licenced in California as quickly as possible so that they could do this, whether it's a permanent full licence or a temporary licence.

54:23 We're looking into the logistics of all that right now. So we're working on that and the never ending pet overpopulation crisis, unfortunately. Well, I just want to say the two of you are my heroes. The amount of work that you have done is mind boggling. This book is a must read. Oh, thank you. Because if you donate to socialcompassionandlegislation.org, you can get it sent to you. Just donate $30 or more. Your work is extraordinary. And of course, I also would love everybody to download Unchained TV.

55:03 We are the world's only streaming television network, nonprofit, free for animals and the plant based lifestyle. So it's a vegan Netflix. Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. I love Unchained TV. Unchained. Unchained TV. Your life will change. It's just that easy. Unchained TV has all sorts of content for everybody. Unchained TV changed my life. Unchained TV is crushing it. I love Unchained TV. Unchained TV is my go to. Unchained TV. Who knew? Unchained TV. Yes.