UnchainedTV: Peru’s Plant-Based Legal Battle

0:00 Unchained TV free streaming network, Jane Velez Mitchell. You're about to hear a secret solution to the problems that plague our world. If you want to revolutionise your health, get truly joyful and jump to the next phase of human evolution, all it takes is one simple choice. Now here's your host, Jane Velez Mitchell. And we've got breaking news for you. A lawsuit in Peru filed by two students demanding vegan options. And this could be a precedent that could reverberate across Latin America. You know, how hard is it for schools to provide vegan options?

0:41 Here are the two students who have taken a stand. One, the young woman on the left is a law student. The other is an anthropology student. They said they were asking for five months, five months begging for substantial vegan options at their school and were met with just silence or dismissal. So finally they hired an attorney and they went to court. And essentially they are making some demands. They're saying, hey, the dining hall must provide plant-based alternatives that are approved by a nutrition specialist in vegan nutrition.

1:21 The students at this university must establish a registry of vegan students and veganism must be recognised as an ethical principle protected by the fundamental right to freedom of conscience. So we're very excited. We think that some of these students may actually be joining us today, but here we are with some of the principals and these are folks joining from around the world. Now I wanna start with Yennifer. Yennifer, you are a translator who has been in court. You have followed this from the beginning. Why don't you give us the basic story of what happened?

2:04 There are students at this university, one of the oldest universities in Mexico, and all of a sudden they say, look, we're vegans. We wanna be able to eat food at our university and crickets. So tell us the story from the beginning, Yennifer. Oh, well, hello everyone. So this is basically really concerning for us because this university is such a big university in Peru. The San Marcos is really big, it's a public university and I felt really upset when these two students, and there's more than just two, right?

2:49 And they were just being discriminated somehow because the only thing they could eat in the university was taking the, let's say, the meat out of the plate. So they must be eating rice, pasta, and that was it. And we're talking about these students are living there in the university, you know? They're studying there and most of them, they don't have a lot of money, so they totally need this nutrition food from the university and the university just don't see it, don't see a problem.

3:37 They even say, this is absurd, this is totally nonsense. So I was really concerned when Alexander contacted me to be the interpreter of the hearing for this group, for Yemucus, Dr. Neil Bernard, Dr. Rowley, and Dr. Celia Shroud, I was really happy to help them because this is a big deal. If the university actually give vegan options, this is gonna be great news for the vegan society in Peru because it's gonna be a start.

4:19 First, it's gonna be this public university, San Marcos, and then we can be to other universities, maybe schools, and then this is gonna be just a great deal if these two students, they are demanding the university win. Let me now go out to Alison Panjay. There's a lot of people involved in here, so thank you for your patience. Alison, what I was particularly taken by, and we invite this university on at any time, I was taken in the news reports I've read by the fact that they thought this was stupid and elitist.

5:03 That's what's so bizarre to me that all of a sudden vegetables have become elitist and serving people meat is considered of the earth when obviously the indigenous peoples of Mexico were not eating at fast food restaurants over the course of centuries. Right, as a matter of fact, Peru traditionally is a potatoes and quinoa and squash. Peru is the origin of some of those foods. And so in the universities, which are in the cities where things tend to move toward the modern way, the US actually introduced the modern chicken.

5:53 When I say modern chicken, I'm talking about the type of chicken that's been genetically improved, quote-unquote, to produce more meat at a more rapid pace. So the US introduced that type of chicken like 50 years ago and that kind of changed everything here in Peru. It became a thing. Before that meat was largely guinea pigs is what people ate here. And they still eat guinea pigs here, but it was only on a special occasion. And Monday through Friday, it would be rice, excuse me, it would be beans and potatoes.

6:38 And that was more traditional here in Peru. So that was introduced to Peru. The chicken, the modern chicken was introduced by Purdue here about 50 years ago. And I don't know if people are aware of this, but Peru is home to the second largest portion of the Amazon jungle after Brazil. Peru has about 12% of the Amazon jungle. And most people are not aware of that. And Peru has an area that's the size of Texas.

7:20 And in the Amazon jungle. And Peru is the source of 30% of the water that flows into the Amazon river across the continent and goes into the Atlantic ocean. So it's an important thing here to take care, to halt the deforestation. And that's part of the issue. Yes, Jane. Let me jump in. I wanna understand really what the lawsuit is about. Now, the attorney is here, the gentleman who is joining us. And we understand that Gabriela, who is one of the plaintiffs has just shown up, but she has not revealed her face.

8:02 Gabriela, can you put your face on camera, please? So let me ask this. And getting back to the translator, what happened in the hearing? I wanna go over the essential facts of this case before we get to some of the deeper issues. But the basic facts of this case are that you're making some demands to provide significant plant-based alternatives, establish a registry of vegan students and have veganism recognised as an ethical principle protected by the fundamental right to freedom of conscience.

8:51 Your complaint is that this university failed to offer any plant-based options in the dining hall, thereby violating the right to freedom of conscience, equality and non-discrimination, personal identity, free development of personality and essentially putting the health and sustenance of the students at risk. So let me ask you, how did this get to the point that there was a lawsuit? I mean, the students went in there, they said, hey, we can't eat any of this stuff. It's drenched in meat and dairy. We've all been there. I've worked in the corporate world where every time you wanted to have vegetables, it was with lard and I couldn't eat any of it.

9:36 I've been in that situation. But you're saying the university simply laughed at this or stopped at it? Yes. I've talked with Gabriela and with Luis and they just said that the university gave them food, right? For free, free food for all the students because all day they don't have this support of their, let's say their parents. And I talked to them and they told me that sometimes their main lunch was rice, meat and then potatoes.

10:21 And that would save a juice maybe. And in order to eat, because they were hungry, they could just eat the rice and the potatoes. And that's so bad for their health because they live in the university. They study there most of the time. So this is really a big concern. So I'm pretty sure that the university, for them, when they say that that was nonsense and nonsense demand and stupid demand, they totally feel discriminated. They felt left behind.

11:01 So what happened in the hearing? There was a hearing and we're gonna find out about that but we've got a lot of callers. The people are really upset about this. Let's start with Paige in Los Angeles. Your question or thought for our panel, most of whom are coming from Peru. So this is quite a technological miracle considering that we're getting all these people from Peru to talk. Hi, can you hear me? Yes. Hello? Great, terrific. I think it's so essential that we're feeding the bright minds of the future now, healthy, delicious food. I'm curious, does the university recognise that we are in a climate crisis and that the Amazon is being burned down for this crop for animals?

11:53 Is that something that's recognised? One piece of the puzzle here, I'm curious about, and in the United States, we're also working on bringing plant-based options to universities with the plants. So this is definitely a groundbreaking win, let's say. And I'm looking forward to hearing the responses. Thank you so much for taking my call. Thank you. So Alison, let's focus in on that. I mean, obviously it's not just a personal choice. It's an environmental choice. It's a compassionate choice. But particularly when we are in the throes of a growing climate crisis that is no longer hypothetical, that is real.

12:35 I mean, we see it here in Los Angeles, fires, floods, all sorts of problems to the point where it's hard to get insurance sometimes for one's home. It's obviously even more extreme in Latin America, which is a hotter climate from the get -go. Isn't, is there any understanding of the climate aspect of this by the university? I would say there's very little understanding of the climate implications of our food systems. There are several different faculties within the university. There's a veterinary school. There is a school, it's a branch of engineering that deals with environment.

13:18 But the question of the implication of what we eat is not really recognised here in Peru. And I think part of it is that unlike Brazil, where the primary cause of deforestation is animal agriculture, here in Peru, that's not true. Peru is not a large consumer or producer of beef. There is dairy production, but there's not the awareness here in Peru about the implications of our food systems. And so, interestingly enough, this is a large university, over 40,000 students, and yes.

13:58 And there doesn't seem to be an integrated awareness. There may be isolated awareness within the university, but the administration seems to be totally unaware of the environmental implications of our food systems. So sad, I mean, the New York Times reported on an Oxford University study that said that vegans are responsible for 75% less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters. Right there, that shows you the solution of the climate crisis. And to think that students at this university in Peru have to sue to get vegan options, it's really shocking.

14:43 We invite the university on any time. I would love to dialogue with you. Let's go to our callers again. Tiffany in Los Angeles, your question or thought for our panel. Thank you, Jane. And this is for Gabriela and Louis. I'm so impressed by both of them doing the right thing for the animals, the environment, and health. What was the final straw that led you to decide to file a lawsuit? What's the story behind the lawsuit? Thank you. We do have the attorney for the two plaintiffs here. And I think we have Gabriela. Let's see if she's popping up. You know, she's in Peru, so it can be very difficult for folks to join.

15:27 These students are not in a situation where there's excellent wifi. You can see the little circle, she's having trouble. Maybe you could answer. You can answer in Spanish, and then Yennefer can translate. Oh, here's Gabriela, hold on. Gabriela, let's get you up. All right. I'm gonna try to unmute you. Can you unmute yourself, please? Unmute yourself, Gabriela. Gabriela. Unmute yourself so we can hear you. Hello. Okay, well, there she is. There's Gabriela. And very, very...

16:07 There she is. Can you unmute yourself, Gabriela? I can't unmute you. Gabriela, can you... Can you speak, Gabriela? We can't hear you because you're muted. You're here, now. Please start describing what happened, why you did this. Speak, please, Gabriela. Okay, I'm going to speak in Spanish, and Yennefer will translate. You can speak. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. Start speaking, please, Gabriela.

16:51 Okay. Well, about why I decided to make this claim, it's because the university doesn't provide food based on plants. And, well, as students, we don't have the economic and time possibilities. Yeah, because the university doesn't offer that. Even if we were, I don't know, omnivores, it's quite... Go on. Continue up, continue up. Continue. It's quite complicated because we work and study. In my case, I live alone, and I have to see how to solve my expenses and so on.

17:32 And besides that, the university has a dining room. So that's why we asked the administration to provide us with an option based on plants, but they didn't answer us. Until now, they haven't answered us. And it's been about a year and a half since we got an answer. And, well, many students in San Marcos don't have the possibility, I don't know, to buy a menu every day. And that's why it's a necessity. Okay. So what I'm hearing, and you could translate further, is that it wasn't just five months, it was over a year. And she is essentially saying there's a lot of students that agree with her.

18:13 It's not just her and her friend that she's speaking for a whole bunch of students. Can you elaborate on that, Allison? And obviously you're in Peru. Everybody here is talking from Peru. So thank you for giving us some of the technical issues. Go ahead. Yes. So the request was made actually last year. And so it's been a year and a half now that the request has been made. And there's been no answer, no reply, other than when the rector of the university spoke publicly and said that the request was absurd.

18:55 And so taking the legal path now, being headed up by these two students, as well as Isaac Lobato, who is on screen, we are moving forward and using this avenue. And we've had the first hearing, and we're now waiting for the judge to respond based on the information that she was given, including three reports, one from Dr. Silas Rao, one from Dr. Raleigh from the Vegan Society, and one from Dr. Bernard from the PCR on the Physicians Committee for Responsible Health.

19:36 And we're also working with the University of California on the issue of the use of medical medicine. So it's a case that's very well presented and supported, and we are on our way with this. Excellent. All right, well, if you're just joining us, I wanna say that we have an entire panel from Peru. This has been quite a deal to get this all together. Thanks to modern technology, we're able to talk to all of them. And you have one of the plaintiffs, one of the two plaintiffs is here, Gabriella, who just basically said they asked for a year nicely, and then when they got no response except dismissal, they finally had to file suit.

20:21 And the good news here is that this is an opportunity to educate not only the students and the administration, but also possibly set a precedent that could reverberate around Latin America or even the world. Let's go to our next caller, Nilo Farr in Dallas, Texas, your question or thought for our panel. Hi. First, I signed the petition. It was very easy to do. Second, it's quite fascinating that Peru has a nascent veganism movement. It's even more fascinating that the issue has now gone to court. Question, are there any risks involved in doing vegan and environmental activism in Peru?

21:09 What do you mean by risk? Are you saying you think people are going to come after them with a sledgehammer or something? Well, there's a record of environmental activists in South America being assassinated. Oh, my gosh. Geez. Well, let's go to the attorney on that. I don't know if you heard the question, but can you answer and feel free to answer in Spanish and then we'll translate. And we're going to unmute you. So unmute yourself. You have to unmute yourself. Go ahead. Thanks, Jen. It's a thankful invitation and it's an honour to be here in your programme.

21:50 And thanks also for the question. I find it very important because about veganism, there is no personal or integrity or risk. However, environmental activism is at risk. And that's a very, very sad. This is a very sad situation here in Peru because overall, indigenous environmental defenders. Until this year, there has been 35 deaths, murders to indigenous defenders of their territory and their environment.

22:37 And that's a very sad situation here in Peru. And the government, their mechanism to protect their life are inefficient overall. Wow. Well, that's terrifying. I want to go back to Allison and ask you your reaction to that because I frankly was unaware. He's saying a lot of environmental activists in Peru have been murdered? Yes. That's scary. Tell us. Yeah. Peru is half jungle. Half of the Peruvian territory is jungle. And that's where these deaths are occurring, where people do not speak English.

23:18 They do not speak Spanish. Although some of their key leaders do speak Spanish. But in any case, they're defending their rights to their land and they get murdered because they're a nuisance to those who want to carry out other activities. So, for instance, in Peru, there's a lot of deforestation because of production of coca, which is used to make cocaine. So the coca leaf is very hard to control. Obviously, there are strong illegal forces behind it. There is some legal coca production in Peru, which is used for, I'm not sure, medicinal purposes, I believe.

24:05 But the majority of it is cocaine production, which is illegal, or coca production, which is illegal. And it's causing deforestation. And so these illegal producers enter the indigenous lands in the Amazon forest. And when the indigenous people go to protect their property and their rights, they often are killed by these narco traffickers. I don't know how you say it in English, but the traffickers. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's very sad. I certainly, certainly hope that the plaintiffs in this lawsuit, I don't think there's crossover.

24:47 Demanding vegan options is not the same. But stay safe. Stay safe. It's kind of scary. I want to go back to Gabriela. And we're going to ask you to unmute. Unmute so you can talk. Quiero que hablas, Gabriela. Okay. Dime. Okay. Yes. ¿Puedes hablar más sobre la reacción en su universidad entre los estudiantes?

25:27 Los estudiantes, ¿cómo piensan ellos? Okay. Bueno. Okay. Bueno. Quienes me conocen en realidad, o son cercanos a mí, me han apoyado bastante. Pero quienes no saben, digamos que de la lucha que se está siguiendo, pues se burlan o intentan minimizar nuestra lucha. Especialmente por las declaraciones que hubieron, ¿no? Sin sustento. Que solo buscaban desinformar de parte de la rectora. Bueno. Ahí justo un medio de comunicación le pidió una entrevista sobre el presupuesto de la universidad.

26:08 Pero ella, para desviar el tema, mencionó nuestra demanda y la tildó de absurda. Y, bueno, que esta es una universidad del pueblo. Y la verdad es bastante indignante que minimice e instrumentalice de esa manera nuestra demanda. Especialmente porque quienes hemos demandado somos parte del pueblo del que hablan, ¿no? Entonces, algunos alumnos se empezaron a burlar por esta situación. Empezaron a mandar mis datos a un grupo de más de 400 personas para burlarse. Y por otro grupo de mi universidad, unos chicos empezaron a dirigirse a mi persona despectivamente. Me decían requítica, mantenida, parásito del estado, entre más cosas, ¿no?

26:53 Luego, fuimos víctima de los comentarios malintencionados por parte de un medio, de un reportero que es bastante cuestionado en nuestro país, el cual difundió mi imagen de perfil y mi usuario de Facebook. Después de esto, me empezaron a llegar mensajes de hombres quienes criticaban mi cuerpo. Y, pues, de cierta manera me insultaron diciéndome que soy, o sea, lo mismo, ¿no? De mantener el estado y demás. Translator, I was, you know, my Spanish is not great, but my understanding, oh, and we've got Dr. Silas Frau joining. Wow, what an incredible honour. But if you could just translate what the plaintiff Gabriela said, my understanding is she said she's Yennefer, she's getting harassed, people are attacking her.

27:42 There's also unspoken media. Tell us, tell us what she said in a nutshell. Oh, well, they were bullying her. But those who don't know about the struggle that was going on, the two plaintiffs make fun of trying to minimise their struggle, especially because of the un-sustainability, the statement made by the rector, right, which only sort of misinformed. A media outlet asked her to interview on the university budget, but in order to defer the subject that she mentioned are the demand and call it absurd nonsense, and that is a university of the people, but these two plaintiffs, they are part of the university.

28:32 They are people. And it is outrageous for her and for Luis that the rector minimises their feelings and their demand, especially because those two demands, these two plans, they are part of the people, they are students. And, yeah, they were harassing her. They were bullying her. They were calling skinny. They were body shaming her. They were saying that she is a rat, really, really bad. Wow. Thank you. I want to bring in Dr. Rao. Thank you for joining us, Dr. Rao. Everybody else is joining us from Peru, and so this is pretty extraordinary that we even have this conversation going.

29:18 But, Dr. Rao, as the founder of Climate Healers, can you tell us what the bigger significance of this entire lawsuit is? Yeah, the significance here is that these students are asking for an option that would not only, you know, address their conscientious objections to eating meat, but also give them a sustainable future. And the university, which is a place of education, which should be a place of research and new beginnings, is basically saying no. How could that, you know, I mean, to me, how could that stand?

30:04 This university has no leg to stand on because they are supposed to be leading in this effort towards sustainability. And the students are basically saying, give us a future. This is why I was struck when this lawsuit came to my attention. And I told Alison I would love to help by writing a legal brief on behalf of the students. And explaining why this is such an important issue from an environmental perspective. I was really struck by how, I hate to say it, backward the university is on this issue, when I know that there are other places in Latin America that are leading in the vegan and plant based movement.

30:55 Mexico City has something like 80 vegan restaurants. It is a vegan Mecca. Costa Rica is very forward thinking when it comes to veganism. It was really shocking to me that Peru, which when I think of Peru, of course, this is, I've never been to Peru, but I think of a tropical forest. I think of fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains. I don't think of steak. I was very shocked, Dr. Rao, by how it's almost like a colonialist attitude toward diet. Right.

31:35 It is based on, you know, colonialism is about imposing our, you know, the coloniser's culture on the colonised. I'm sure the indigenous people of Peru are not eating chicken and steak. They were eating what is available to them, which is, you know, it's growing in plenty around the plants and primarily plants is what they would be eating. So it's imposing our culture on them, saying you need to be eating McDonald's. You need to be eating, you know, Purdue chicken. That to me is a form of colonialism, right, in the food.

32:16 Well, indeed, it's food colonialism. And I think it's something that what always strikes me as so frustrating is when people co-sign their own oppression. And this is what I think this university, respectfully, we invite them on any time, but I think that's what's happening. It's almost like we want to adopt the Western diet to prove whatever, when indeed a true reflexion of Peru, if you go back millennia, would be almost entirely plant-based or certainly primarily plant-based.

33:00 I have to go back to Alison on that. You know, you're there, Alison, in Peru. Is there discussion about this at all? Or is this something that we're seeing from afar, but the folks there are too close to see it? Well, certainly there's a lot of discussion within the vegan community here in Peru. The majority of Peruvians who are vegan are vegan because of ethical reasons. And one of the ethical reasons is environmental. But also they're very concerned about the well -being of animals.

33:44 And it's a substantial movement. And we do have a dozen vegan restaurants in Lima. So it's not something that's unknown, but there's a lot of resistance. Peru is, I would say, having lived here for nearly 40 years, there's a conservative aspect of Peru that maybe comes from Catholicism. And so there's always a conservative push to embracing new things. Now, if it's shown that you can make money with veganism, then there are thousands and millions of entrepreneurs waiting to take advantage.

34:34 And so we do have a lot of new companies that have started up. One of them is called Peruvian VEF, V -E-E-F. So we have organic supermarkets. And it's more than a budding industry. Things are changing. And this lawsuit is key, pulling people together from all of the universities and bringing it into the public dialogue. So, yeah, it's not like Mexico. There's been more of a transformation due to this colonialist attitude of the wealthy who have changed the way of eating, particularly in the cities, from the traditional food to this elitist type of consumption of animals.

35:33 And if you go into the rural areas, you will not find people eating nearly as much chicken as they do in the urban areas. But it's a product of colonialism, absolutely. Well, if you are joining us, we're bringing you a breaking news about this lawsuit that was filed against a major university in Peru by these two students, one of whom has joined us, and they simply want plant-based options, significant plant-based options, not just bread and pasta and rice, which is not sustainable for them health-wise.

36:16 So they've made demands in this lawsuit. The dining hall must provide plant-based alternatives that are approved by a nutritionist specialising in vegan nutrition. The university must establish a registry of vegan students, and veganism must be recognised as an ethical principle protected by the fundamental right to freedom of conscience. So where does this lawsuit stand? There was a hearing. What was the outcome of the hearing in a nutshell? And what's the next step? And let's go back to Alison on that. Okay. I think Isaac, the attorney, would be a better one to answer. Well, sure. Okay.

36:57 We're going to go to you. Unmute yourself, sir, and tell us what happened in court. Yes. We had the hearing on September 9th, and then there will be the judgement, because we are in a constitutional process, and it means that it's very short if we compare with other kinds of uses of judgement. So, yeah, in that case, I don't know if maybe until the last of the year, at the end of the year, we finally get a judgement, and we hope so.

37:40 But it will depend on the judge, principally. So it's a judge, a single judge, making this decision. It's not a jury. It's one judge who hears this? Yeah, because we are on the first instance, and in the first instance, it's only one judge. Then after it, independent of the decision, of the judgement, if it's in favour to us or against to us, the part who is not beneficent for it will appear, the judgement, and now will be a jury. There will be the second instance where three judges, not only one, will solve the case.

38:25 And if we go in the second instance, the process is over, and there will be all these requests, right? However, if we don't win in the second instance, we could go to the constitutional court. In that case, the most important court to interpret the constitution in our country. Let me ask you this question. Did the university show up at the hearing, and what exactly did they say in their own defence in front of the judge?

39:07 It's a very important question. The defence, the other lawyers said that basically formal arguments that say that there is, we pretend a right to beginnings, and that right to beginnings doesn't exist. But that's false, because we are not pretending to recognise a new right. This right actually exists, and this is the freedom of consciousness, and we only want to, beginnings, consider as a protected belief, right? And then the other argument is that beginnings, there is not a conscience about how beginnings will impact our health, and we need a new, a whole other process when you can discuss even more with a lot of specialists about this beginnings, why it's good for our health, or their health is not in risk if you are vegan, right?

40:11 And in that case, we thank Dr. Barnard, because he's absolutely authority in this topic, and said that there are a lot of international organisations, a lot of experts that said, even if they are not vegans, but beginnings is perfect. I'm going to jump in and say, okay, so the attorneys for the school argued against, in court, this all happened on September 9th, I want to talk a little bit about the implications, because, for example, there was a gentleman who happens to be a writer at Unchained TV, Jordi Casamejana, who went to court in England, and said that he had a basic right as a vegan, and it's a very complicated lawsuit, it's not exactly similar to this, but the bottom line was that that lawsuit ultimately established veganism as a protected class akin to religion in the United Kingdom, and that had huge implications for, let's say, a company having a holiday party, they provide vegan options, so this was a huge development.

41:27 I want to ask Dr. Rao, what are the legal implications, in your opinion, let's say they were to win, ultimately, in terms of what schools around Latin America and other institutions would have to do to avoid also being sued? Yeah, I think this has tremendous implications. If we win the lawsuit, then it establishes this as a right to conscience, which is not just about food, but also, I mean, as the attorney was telling us about, you know, veterinary students don't have to learn how to disassemble animals, which is what they're taught to do, right?

42:13 How to kill them. They're taught, because their conscience is to protect the animals, so they want to do that. So I think it has tremendous implications for all educational institutions, in Peru especially, and probably throughout the world. People can cite that as a precedent. So when you really think about it, it could be the best thing that ever happened for veganism, for the school to have been so intransigent and absolutely not flexible and not embracing of students who were saying, this is against our belief system to eat the body parts of animals or their byproducts.

42:57 Please provide us with something healthy to eat that is vegan, something substantial, not just bread and pasta. And ultimately, those students filed suit. I think it's really interesting, Yennefer, to think about the unintended consequences. I mean, if they had decided, yeah, okay, we're going to give you some fruits and vegetables every day, it might have just gone away. But now there's this opportunity to really make a change culturally in Peru and beyond. Can you give us your feelings on that? Yes. When I talked with Gabriel and Luis, they told me that some of the students, this is really important, well, they were not food to eat more than bread and pasta.

43:51 And Luis told me that for a second he doubted about still going vegan, still being vegan, and that was really, really sad. And just Gabriela, she was suffering a lot of bullying and that affected her mental health. It's really upsetting. Yeah, but I mean, in a way, their courage has given this voice to this whole issue. Is it something everybody's talking about? Is it getting a lot of conversation? Well, not that much.

44:33 After the hearing, there were some friends that supported, some students that supported. It's just a minimal group, maybe 10 to 20 people. But after that, the university did give them the support they should. And after the hearing, that changed a little bit. Now they have a little bit more support of their professors, some other students. Let me ask, Alison, let me ask you this. Is there media coverage of this issue in Peru?

45:17 I would think this would be a pretty good story. Actually, there has not been a lot of media coverage. You know how timing is everything. And right now we're experiencing a lot of forest fires in the Amazon jungle. And a lot of the protesting, there's been daily protesting throughout the country in defence of the Amazon forest. So that's been drawing attention away from this. But that's why we're here today speaking with you and why we're spreading the word through the plant-based treaty website and the petition that they put out.

46:03 And doing everything that we can to raise awareness about what's happening. And so it's still early on in the process. But it's very, very important that we push through now and get this into the public awareness. Were you in court? The hearing was virtual. Did you attend the hearing? Yes, I did. Okay, so how do you think it went? I was shocked how unprepared the other attorney was. He was basically trying to dismiss the case right up front. And beyond that, he was unprepared.

46:43 He didn't even realise that there were going to be three international speakers defending. So he was unprepared in that way. Tell us about the three international speakers defending. Yes, we reached out early on to Dr. Rao at Climate Healers. We reached out to plant-based universities where Alistair Stewart supported us in giving us ideas on how to get international support. We reached out then at his recommendation to the Vegan Society.

47:24 And they responded immediately. Dr. Jeanette Rowley, who represents the legal department of the Vegan Society, stepped out. I want to jump in. So, Dr. Rao, and sorry to interrupt, what was your pitch? What did you say? Yeah, I provided them with why going vegan is important for the environment, not just for climate change, but for all six planetary boundaries that we have transgressed in the life support systems of the planet. It's as if the planet has like six different fires going on in different aspects of the life support system. And if the world goes vegan, we can quench all of them.

48:07 I mean, it's like it's a no-brainer, right? Today, I was speaking at the University of Iowa. I'm in Iowa right now. And I was speaking to students. And I just presented them the data on land use and, you know, how much land is being used for animal agriculture, how much food is it providing. So I gave them all the data, and then I asked them, how would you solve this problem? And they immediately said, they all immediately said, we should go vegan. It's that obvious, okay? If it's so obvious to students who are seeing the data for the first time, why isn't it obvious to an academic institution like the University of San Marcos?

48:48 Why don't they make the same connexions that the students just made? So I say that it's something that we are all pretending not to see, and it is so self-evident, and it's time to stop pretending and time to get serious about addressing these environmental issues. And there is one way to do it, which is to go vegan as quickly as possible. And I've been saying this for so long. It's so obvious to me, too. Do we still have Steve in Dallas, Texas? No, all the colours have dropped off, sorry. Well, this is what I find so completely just horrifying, is that the students are protesting against the environmental destruction that's happening, but they're not connecting the dots to their own diet.

49:35 So they're not paying attention to the demand for vegan options in the university as much as they should because they're busy protesting the fires that are the result of the meat industry's destruction of the land, and it's very hard to get anybody. You know, when people's so-called self-interest depends on them not understanding something, it's very hard to explain it to them. That's really the fundamental thing. People don't want to know. They don't want to see the obvious. Just like people who are alcoholics don't want to see that the solution isn't drinking alcohol, it's the problem.

50:20 And so this is where we're at. We only have a couple of seconds left. I want to thank everybody for being on this panel. It's been a wild ride, but please understand, people, that these folks are coming from all over the world, from Peru, and they're making do as best they can in terms of Internet, Wi-Fi, and other technologies. So we're very grateful to have them. Yennefer, what would you say? If you could say one thing for 30 seconds to the judge, what would you say? I would tell the judge that if the university gives vegan options, it would be a great step for the vegan society in Peru.

51:06 I actually do think that because the San Marcos, this university is huge. Everyone in Peru knows the San Marcos, so it's going to pop up in news and in papers. Everyone is going to be talking about that. So as I said, all of other institutions are going to follow that step. So it's a really big deal. So I hope the judge understands that, that this is a good point of changing the things how we know in Peru and start helping our planet, helping our health, and especially for the animals, right?

51:47 I want to thank everybody who participated. Thank you so much for jumping on, Dr. Rao. I know you're a very busy man, and I appreciate you being here. And to everybody watching, please download Unchained TV. We are the world's only vegan nonprofit streaming television network. So it's a vegan Netflix. Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. I love Unchained TV. Unchained. Unchained TV. Your life will change. It's just that easy. Unchained TV has all sorts of content for everybody. Unchained TV changed my life. Unchained TV is crushing it. I love Unchained TV. Unchained TV is my go-to.

52:29 Unchained TV. Who knew?