UnchainedTV: Stop Live Animal Abuse!

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We have a breaking news for you.

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It is making headlines all over the place.

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As you can see, San Francisco, Chinatown, wet

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markets under scrutiny for alleged animal cruelty.

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Turtles' legs seen moving in response to being

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cut apart.

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This is a breaking news.

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Live market horrors have been caught on tape.

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Animal Outlook is charging that laws against animal

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cruelty are simply not being enforced when it

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comes to live animal markets in the San

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Francisco area.

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I gotta warn you, some of the things

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we're showing you are just horrifying.

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And they've provided this shocking video documenting widespread

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abuse that they believe violates California law.

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The group says, even though it's presented this

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evidence and solutions, law enforcement just can't seem

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to get around to taking action and enforce

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the law.

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The abuse involves turtles and frogs being cut

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open while still alive.

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That violates California law, which requires animals be

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rendered unconscious or insensible to pain before death.

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Now we invite the agencies involved on anytime

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to respond.

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Very happy to have today, Ben Williamson, the

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executive director of Animal Outlook.

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They have been leading the way on this

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story with their undercover investigations.

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So Ben, just bring us the very latest.

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What is happening at these live markets?

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Well, thanks so much for having me on

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the show, Jane.

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What you summed it up, we've done two

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investigations now of these live markets in San

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Francisco, one in 2022 and one in October,

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2024.

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And we went to dozens of these live

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markets across the Bay Area.

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And we find the same thing, routine daily

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killing of animals in egregious ways, being bludgeoned

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over the head, being cut open while they're

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seemingly still alive, being suffocated, being placed into

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plastic bags, animals trying to escape, animals tipping

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out onto the street.

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And it's really horrible stuff.

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I mean, the cruelty is right there in

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plain sight.

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And we've, over the years, since our very

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first investigation, we've submitted our complaints to the

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SFACC, Animal Care and Control, who are charged

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with enforcing the law when it comes to

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animal cruelty.

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And they just haven't done enough.

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On our first investigation, they issued one citation

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for animal cruelty, and that was for a

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turtle who was being cut open alive.

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So they acknowledged that there's a problem here.

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They just, they say that they're kind of

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powerless to do anything, which we disagree with.

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Our lawyers have looked at the case law.

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They've looked at all of the law in

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regards to this.

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And they say, no, not only does ACC

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have the right to enforce the animal cruelty

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law, which in California is pretty good, they

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have an obligation to do so, because it's

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certainly not up to the police.

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The ACC is responsible to enforce animal cruelty

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law in California, and they just haven't done

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enough of it.

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So again, this is disturbing footage.

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And, you know, you've got to look at

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this all the time.

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Just uploading the video was so disturbing to

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me.

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And what occurs to me is that frogs,

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turtles, and fish are just not considered a

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top priority by society, which is so unfair.

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I want to dive deep into some of

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the responses.

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Now, I have to tell you, we did

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call San Francisco Animal Care and Control and

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sought a response.

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I did not get a call back.

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However, San Francisco Animal Care and Control did

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speak, at least issued a statement to CBS

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News, which covered this, quote, while the allegations

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are shocking, San Francisco Animal Care and Control

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can only act on what we see.

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We cannot cite based on videos.

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Our animal control officers respond to constituent complaints

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and concerns as quickly as we can with

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the resources we have available.

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So what is your response to their response

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that they can't go on a video that

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you've shown them, which we've all just watched,

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which shows a giant mallet and a thrashing

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animal, that they've got to see it themselves?

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Yeah, well, there's two points they're making there,

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right?

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They're saying that they can't cite based on

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video evidence and that they don't have the

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resources available to enforce.

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And we dispute both.

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So for the video evidence case, I mean,

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clearly you say that these animals are overlooked

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by society.

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This would never happen if it was humans,

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right?

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If we had documented reliable evidence of this

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kind of thing happening to humans, you can

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guarantee that the doors being kicked down would

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be people going to jail for this.

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So on case law, and we looked at

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the traffic laws, the footage-involved traffic laws,

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the case law is quite clear that you

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can issue citations for footage-involved traffic law

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violations.

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You can do that for this as well.

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Neither the US Constitution, the California Constitution, or

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California Penal Code prevents the ACC from issuing

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citations based on third-party video evidence.

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That seems to be a rule that ACC

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has just created for itself and it seems

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to be quite convenient that they don't have

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to do it because they say they don't.

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In fact, California Penal Code is quite clear.

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They have an exemption for arrests.

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Arrests you have to witness firsthand.

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The police and ACC, who also have the

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ability to issue warrants and arrest people.

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But citations, which are considered small fines at

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best, which can be contested in court, the

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people committing these apparent crimes can have their

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day in court if they contest the citation.

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They can be issued free and especially based

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on third-party evidence, which is a way

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of getting around the fact that they say

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they have no resources.

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That's the other thing we dispute.

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They have 14 animal control officers.

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They go to 10,000 calls every year,

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most of them being cats and dogs because,

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Jane, as you alluded to, society generally takes

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cats and dog preferences over wild animals, over

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aquatic animals.

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So you could, we think, if you're not

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gonna accept our evidence, which we think is

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irrefutable, and they have also called shocking and

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they have also issued citations based on our

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evidence, or at least inspected based on our

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evidence in the past, then you can at

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least send your officers on a daily or

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a weekly or a monthly basis because, as

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I say, they know this stuff is happening.

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We know it's happening.

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Everyone in San Francisco knows this is happening,

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but you can go see it for yourself,

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issue citations, and maybe it will stop.

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Well, this is not just happening in San

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Francisco.

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In New York City, there is a similar

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battle against live markets, and this is just

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so, so disturbing.

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First of all, a couple of things.

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It doesn't sound like you needed to go

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in there and take a job as a

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butcher to see this.

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This is a retail market where people go

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to get food, their idea of food, live

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animals, and watch them be killed in front

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of them and then take those animals home,

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the carcasses, and eat them.

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So it would appear to me, correct me

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if I'm wrong, that you went in as

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a shopper and documented this with a hidden

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camera.

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You didn't have to, your team didn't have

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to take a job there and lurk around.

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It seems like it's pretty much happening in

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the open.

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As one of the articles said, hidden in

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plain sight is this cruelty.

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So why can't they go and document exactly

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what you documented with a simple trip there

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in plain clothes?

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Yeah, yeah, we feel that they could, and

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we feel that it's just, you know, we

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know these people to be well-meaning.

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They are animal people, but for the reasons

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that they've put up, and they're not giving

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us that many reasons, as you said, they're

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not in communication with us, but speaking through

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the press, through all those articles that you've

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cited, they do allude to the fact that

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they say they can't accept third-party evidence

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and they don't have the resources to send

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people.

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And that's just something I don't think is

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valid.

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14 animal control officers, 10,000 calls every

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year.

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Why can't you make time for these turtles

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and these frogs?

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And let's take a look at some of

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their other, I'm gonna just say, excuses, all

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right?

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Now, you got written up at the San

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Francisco Standard.

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The deputy director of animal care and control

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said, they told the Standard, the agency is

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constrained because it's not staffed by sworn officers,

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which means its team members have to witness

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an offence in order to cite it.

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Now, we just went over that.

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They could go over just like you did.

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And with a video camera or their phone,

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any number of ways they could see what

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you've seen with so many people who visit

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these live animal markets, which are retail slaughterhouses,

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see.

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Then they said, the agency has not seen

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anyone successfully prosecute live animal cruelty under current

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laws.

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Courts are backed up with serious felonies with

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violent crimes.

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So these are not always seen as a

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priority.

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To me, that gets to the heart of

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this.

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They don't see it as a priority.

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They assume because it's a turtle or a

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frog that, eh, but that's not the law.

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The law is that in California, an animal

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has to be rendered insensible or unconscious before

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he or she is slaughtered.

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Take it away.

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Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.

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I mean, that word, serious crimes, just alludes

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to the fact that they're not taking it

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as seriously as they should.

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And because we're talking about other species, it's

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a deprioritized target.

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So we, as we say, we fully want

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them, we're pushing them to actually do more

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on this subject.

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They have the power to do more.

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They are enforced to do more.

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They, the health code actually gives them the

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power to issue citations, to issue fines.

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It's there in plain writing in the California

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health code.

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While they may not be, they may not

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feel that they have the power to arrest

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people and enforce warrants, they can issue fines.

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In fact, they're mandated to issue fines.

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So that's what we're asking them to do.

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If you issue enough citations on it, then

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practises will change.

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It will be financially impossible for these places

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to keep doing what they're doing.

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And that's how you can bring about change.

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But they're also, they could work with police

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if they wanted to, to enforce the law

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and to bring about criminal prosecutions on this.

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And so far we haven't seen any action

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on either one.

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So we just think that they're really falling

271
00:11:04,270 --> 00:11:04,850
down here.

272
00:11:04,990 --> 00:11:07,530
We think that we can, as a society,

273
00:11:07,650 --> 00:11:09,230
as people who care about animals, as San

274
00:11:09,230 --> 00:11:11,470
Francisco residents, and you're right, these things happen

275
00:11:11,470 --> 00:11:12,570
all over the country as well.

276
00:11:12,610 --> 00:11:15,910
And we urge anyone who's outraged about this

277
00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:19,530
to contact their local officials and demand action

278
00:11:20,130 --> 00:11:21,810
for the cruelty that's happening on a daily

279
00:11:21,810 --> 00:11:23,110
basis in these live markets.

280
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:26,330
But we can push them to do more

281
00:11:26,330 --> 00:11:26,730
on this.

282
00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:29,170
And we just need some public support and

283
00:11:29,170 --> 00:11:33,150
we need people to really take this responsibility

284
00:11:33,150 --> 00:11:33,730
seriously.

285
00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:37,290
So you had mentioned that this is a

286
00:11:37,290 --> 00:11:38,550
coast to coast battle.

287
00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:40,750
It's happening in New York.

288
00:11:40,890 --> 00:11:42,330
There are many protests.

289
00:11:42,510 --> 00:11:44,210
You're looking at an image of one of

290
00:11:44,210 --> 00:11:44,410
them.

291
00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:47,010
And we have a short clip to show

292
00:11:47,010 --> 00:11:50,630
you of one of the shows about this

293
00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:56,610
on Unshamed TV, which really documents the horror

294
00:11:56,610 --> 00:11:58,090
of live markets.

295
00:11:58,290 --> 00:12:00,430
This is from New York City.

296
00:12:01,090 --> 00:12:03,050
Do you see any water troughs anywhere for

297
00:12:03,050 --> 00:12:03,210
them?

298
00:12:03,450 --> 00:12:04,610
I don't see any water troughs.

299
00:12:05,050 --> 00:12:05,690
Get the fuck out.

300
00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:06,010
Get the fuck out.

301
00:12:06,010 --> 00:12:06,930
Don't touch her.

302
00:12:06,930 --> 00:12:07,870
Do not touch her.

303
00:12:07,870 --> 00:12:08,310
Get the fuck out.

304
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:08,990
Get the fuck out.

305
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:12,270
You may be surprised to learn wet markets

306
00:12:12,270 --> 00:12:14,650
where live animals are sold on the spot

307
00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:17,050
are also in the United States.

308
00:12:17,250 --> 00:12:19,910
There are over 80 wet markets still operating

309
00:12:19,910 --> 00:12:21,430
in the New York City area alone.

310
00:12:21,550 --> 00:12:24,410
In Brooklyn, Astoria, Flushing, the Bronx, and Harlem.

311
00:12:24,870 --> 00:12:25,770
Careful with the faeces.

312
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:27,290
You don't wanna bring that faeces home.

313
00:12:27,410 --> 00:12:30,230
There's heads, guts, just leaving it on the

314
00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:30,650
sidewalk.

315
00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:33,030
Why are these live markets in our neighbourhood?

316
00:12:33,150 --> 00:12:34,450
Right next to a dental office.

317
00:12:34,570 --> 00:12:36,450
We can't be pointing the finger at China

318
00:12:36,950 --> 00:12:40,210
when we have the same or worse conditions

319
00:12:40,210 --> 00:12:40,590
here.

320
00:12:40,590 --> 00:12:43,270
It doesn't matter whether they're wild animals or

321
00:12:43,270 --> 00:12:44,370
domestic animals.

322
00:12:46,190 --> 00:12:48,650
Live animal markets are a breeding ground for

323
00:12:48,650 --> 00:12:49,230
disease.

324
00:12:49,490 --> 00:12:52,310
And indeed, the next pandemic may come from

325
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:55,470
live bird markets in New York City rather

326
00:12:55,470 --> 00:12:57,930
than wet markets somewhere in South Asia.

327
00:12:58,730 --> 00:13:00,030
Does it have concerned you that you have

328
00:13:00,030 --> 00:13:01,530
a live animal market in your own backyard?

329
00:13:01,870 --> 00:13:05,050
Everybody gets upset, but the health department, nobody

330
00:13:05,050 --> 00:13:05,750
wants to do anything.

331
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:08,210
If you don't like it, don't come by

332
00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:08,510
there.

333
00:13:08,510 --> 00:13:11,490
Because unfortunately, I personally can't do anything.

334
00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:19,000
There we have it.

335
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,460
Two of the most influential cities in the

336
00:13:21,460 --> 00:13:25,260
world, New York City and San Francisco.

337
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,100
And they're all over the country.

338
00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:30,080
They're all over the world, these live animal

339
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:30,640
markets.

340
00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:34,080
And what activist Adita Bernkranth said is, we're

341
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,340
pointing the finger at China for like their

342
00:13:36,340 --> 00:13:41,000
Wuhan market, which some still now feel was

343
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,360
the source of the COVID pandemic.

344
00:13:44,060 --> 00:13:45,380
There's always a debate.

345
00:13:45,580 --> 00:13:46,780
Was it the lab in Wuhan?

346
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,080
Was it the wet market?

347
00:13:48,460 --> 00:13:52,340
But we know that those wet markets are

348
00:13:52,340 --> 00:13:54,000
a harbinger of disease.

349
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,440
We know we've got bird flu right now,

350
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,980
which is an escalating threat that is posing

351
00:14:00,980 --> 00:14:03,540
a greater and greater problem.

352
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,780
This New York Times report just from the

353
00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:10,020
other day says a dangerous virus, bird flu

354
00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:11,680
enters a new phase.

355
00:14:12,260 --> 00:14:14,960
A human pandemic is not inevitable, but a

356
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,760
series of developments indicates that the possibility is

357
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,800
no longer remote.

358
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,840
And despite this and despite that live markets

359
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,060
inherently have animals in crowded conditions, which is

360
00:14:28,060 --> 00:14:31,880
a breeding ground for potential disease, still authorities

361
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,820
in New York, authorities in San Francisco, nowhere

362
00:14:34,820 --> 00:14:37,720
are they taking action against these live markets,

363
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:38,160
Ben.

364
00:14:38,820 --> 00:14:40,080
Yeah, I mean, you're right.

365
00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:42,780
Even before the COVID pandemic, we all knew

366
00:14:42,780 --> 00:14:46,160
that live markets were a source of possible

367
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,860
zoonosis, transfer of pathogens from non-human animals

368
00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:51,440
to humans.

369
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,240
SARS, MERS, bird flu, swine flu, you name

370
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:55,500
it.

371
00:14:55,740 --> 00:14:59,120
All of these diseases started in non-human

372
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,880
animals and can be passed.

373
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,960
So we haven't specifically looked at the health

374
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,700
implications of this as an animal protection organisation.

375
00:15:09,940 --> 00:15:12,760
Our priority is with protecting these turtles, the

376
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,000
fish, the frogs.

377
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:15,740
But absolutely, you're right.

378
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,500
These places, I mean, you can smell the

379
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:22,440
gore, the blood as you walk past them,

380
00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:26,480
as the bacteria that must be living in

381
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:27,220
all of them.

382
00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,600
We don't want to be alarmist about this

383
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,840
thing, but if the history keeps showing that

384
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,880
these diseases are, these novel diseases are being

385
00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,620
created in animals, in non-human animals, and

386
00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:42,240
then transferring to humans, surely you've got to

387
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:43,320
do something about it.

388
00:15:43,420 --> 00:15:46,460
And I think the whole, the Wuhan, whether

389
00:15:46,460 --> 00:15:48,220
it was in a lab or the market,

390
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,120
has just kind of sidetracked us into not

391
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,180
taking the threat, the fact that it could

392
00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:56,020
have possibly happened, and probably, a lot of

393
00:15:56,020 --> 00:15:58,960
people think, probably happened at this wet market.

394
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,220
Surely that's enough to go on to say,

395
00:16:02,580 --> 00:16:04,080
right, we should do something about this.

396
00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:04,820
Enough is enough.

397
00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:08,800
And we're getting other people saying, for example,

398
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,040
Tom, we have wet markets in Chicago too.

399
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,220
Yes, they're all over the country.

400
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,700
And speaking of the bird flu, we have

401
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:23,360
been very carefully following the developments because so

402
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,580
many of them are happening also here in

403
00:16:25,580 --> 00:16:26,220
California.

404
00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:28,880
I don't know if you've seen this, but

405
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,980
Dr. Crystal Keith, of our honour, went around

406
00:16:32,980 --> 00:16:35,240
at her own risk and started documenting piles

407
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,880
of dead cows by the road in California,

408
00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:42,860
apparent victims of bird flu.

409
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,920
And we know that bird flu has infected

410
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,860
cows and it has infected some people.

411
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,620
And again, the threat is very real.

412
00:16:53,140 --> 00:16:55,220
So for those who might say, oh, we're

413
00:16:55,220 --> 00:16:59,220
being alarmist, look at these images, okay?

414
00:16:59,420 --> 00:17:01,680
And then let's go back to the images

415
00:17:02,380 --> 00:17:08,480
that Ben Williamson's organisation, Animal Outlook, provided vis

416
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,140
-a-vis the conditions in these wet markets.

417
00:17:13,579 --> 00:17:16,640
And again, we're not singling any one wet

418
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:17,420
market out.

419
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,839
This is how it's done.

420
00:17:20,060 --> 00:17:22,819
It's live animals that are slaughtered on the

421
00:17:22,819 --> 00:17:23,260
spot.

422
00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:26,780
And you see there, frogs being beheaded with

423
00:17:26,780 --> 00:17:27,820
no stunning.

424
00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:30,060
So they're being chopped up alive.

425
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,740
Now, again, there you see, there's a fish

426
00:17:34,740 --> 00:17:35,680
being chopped up alive.

427
00:17:36,060 --> 00:17:39,700
We invite San Francisco Animal Care and Control

428
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,560
on any time to respond to anything said

429
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:42,960
today.

430
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:45,760
We would love to dialogue with you about

431
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,440
this issue.

432
00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:48,360
There you see a turtle being struck with

433
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:49,420
a mallet then butchered.

434
00:17:49,670 --> 00:17:53,880
I mean, now look, one of the things

435
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,680
that Adita Bernkrant, the activist said, don't point

436
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:57,600
the finger at China.

437
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:00,140
We're doing the same thing here.

438
00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:03,060
And let's face it, factory farming is just

439
00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:05,420
as cruel in a different way.

440
00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:10,140
So nobody's attacking anybody's culture, but there is

441
00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:14,680
a general reluctance, I think, to look at

442
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,920
any issue where somebody can say, you're attacking

443
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,660
my culture.

444
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,600
And we all have cultures.

445
00:18:21,180 --> 00:18:22,360
I'm Puerto Rican and Irish.

446
00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:24,960
Do not use my culture to justify animal

447
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:26,800
cruelty in any way, shape or form, all

448
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:26,960
right?

449
00:18:27,140 --> 00:18:28,040
I don't want it.

450
00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,020
It's no excuse for animal abuse.

451
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,220
And I think that the same would apply

452
00:18:34,220 --> 00:18:35,260
to any culture.

453
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,060
There's no excuse for animal abuse.

454
00:18:38,140 --> 00:18:39,160
What are your thoughts on that?

455
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,940
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

456
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,340
I mean, Animal Outlook as an organisation, we

457
00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:47,020
spend most of our time doing undercover investigations

458
00:18:47,020 --> 00:18:52,900
of those international massive agribusinesses, the likes of

459
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,200
Tyson and Foster Farms and JBS.

460
00:18:55,420 --> 00:18:58,020
They're the organisations that provide the most amount

461
00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:01,460
of meat and have the most culpability in

462
00:19:01,460 --> 00:19:03,680
animal suffering, certainly in terms of scale.

463
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,220
So, and our message is a vegan one.

464
00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:10,980
It's not singling out a particular slaughtering method.

465
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:13,500
We want all of this to stop because

466
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:16,160
we know that even with the best wool

467
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,000
in the world and the most humane slaughtering

468
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,640
techniques, it's still wrong to kill animals, take

469
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,100
the life of an animal who doesn't want

470
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:25,520
to die.

471
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,560
So our message is always vegan.

472
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,580
Our message is always, if you're upset by

473
00:19:30,580 --> 00:19:32,700
what's happening at wet markets, but you still

474
00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:34,480
eat meat, then you really need to rethink

475
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,680
that, your priorities there.

476
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,940
I will say something, Crystal Heath, who you

477
00:19:39,940 --> 00:19:43,100
mentioned, has done fantastic work exposing the dairy,

478
00:19:43,420 --> 00:19:44,540
the bird flu and dairy.

479
00:19:44,540 --> 00:19:48,360
She's done more work to get veterinarians who

480
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:52,280
are another group who are quite absent on

481
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,340
this issue, on taking bird flu, on bird

482
00:19:55,340 --> 00:19:56,880
safety and ventilation shutdown.

483
00:19:57,020 --> 00:19:58,920
She's done more on this issue than almost

484
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,640
anybody in the movement.

485
00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:03,000
So hats off to Crystal for all her

486
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,700
undercover analysis here.

487
00:20:05,420 --> 00:20:07,200
But yeah, I mean, this is not an

488
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,020
issue of culture.

489
00:20:08,140 --> 00:20:09,440
It's an issue of animal cruelty.

490
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:12,540
We take a plain view reading of the

491
00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:12,820
law.

492
00:20:12,820 --> 00:20:15,140
And if animals are suffering according to the

493
00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:18,300
law, then wherever you live, whatever culture you're

494
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:20,400
part of, we're calling for that to stop.

495
00:20:20,460 --> 00:20:22,680
Because let's face it, most of the time,

496
00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:25,880
animals aren't represented very well in the law

497
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:26,760
because they don't vote.

498
00:20:26,860 --> 00:20:28,280
This is one instance where the law is

499
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:29,060
really clear.

500
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:32,020
California's Penal Code, General Animal Cruelty Law, and

501
00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:34,080
they also have a live market law specifically

502
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,180
to cater to our feathered and skinned friends.

503
00:20:38,060 --> 00:20:40,340
It's one issue where we actually have good

504
00:20:40,340 --> 00:20:42,960
law and the law is not being enforced.

505
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:45,020
Well, let me say this.

506
00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:48,720
The idea of not enforcing animal cruelty laws

507
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,620
is such a big issue.

508
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:53,800
And so many organisations have tried to tackle

509
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,880
this with very little success.

510
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,220
As you know, California passed Prop 2 many

511
00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:04,700
years ago that just wanted to give animals

512
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:07,100
room to turn around and spread their wings.

513
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:10,500
And then they most recently passed Prop 12,

514
00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:14,380
which essentially bans pig gestation crates, which are

515
00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:17,640
these hideous, like the first time I saw

516
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,120
one, I said, no, it's not possible that

517
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,440
human beings can be this sadistic to keep

518
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,960
animals in crates the size of their bodies,

519
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,940
never able to turn around, even scratch themselves,

520
00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:31,200
they become psychotic.

521
00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:35,860
And I just wonder about the human, it

522
00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:37,900
makes me embarrassed to be a member of

523
00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:39,560
the human race when I see something like

524
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,960
this, just beyond comprehension, horrible.

525
00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:45,760
Well, California passed Prop 12, which says that

526
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,860
products from pigs kept in these crates cannot

527
00:21:49,860 --> 00:21:50,940
be sold in California.

528
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:53,080
California is the fifth largest economy in the

529
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:53,620
world.

530
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,780
So that battle went all the way up

531
00:21:56,780 --> 00:21:59,220
to the US Supreme Court and the US

532
00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:02,260
Supreme Court said, Prop 12 is the law.

533
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,040
However, are there any enforcements?

534
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,360
No, there's never been an enforcement to my

535
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:11,060
knowledge and others who have been examining this

536
00:22:11,060 --> 00:22:13,720
issue of either Prop 2 or Prop 12.

537
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,700
And then when animal organisations go in and

538
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:24,320
they document abuses of these particular propositions passed

539
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,680
by the California voters, what happens is they're

540
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:28,980
often prosecuted.

541
00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:31,080
So I wanna play a clip for you

542
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:37,440
of protests about the prosecution of activists who

543
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,400
have gone in and documented what's happening to

544
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,400
these animals and taken a few symbolically out

545
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,020
as rescues.

546
00:22:48,740 --> 00:22:53,680
And then they themselves, those animal rescuers are

547
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,360
prosecuted.

548
00:22:54,580 --> 00:22:56,280
Sonoma County District Attorney.

549
00:22:56,620 --> 00:23:01,480
Instead of prosecuting rescuers and whistleblowers, prosecute this.

550
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,540
On November 2nd, a jury in Sonoma County,

551
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,280
California convicted Wayne Chung, the co-founder of

552
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,840
Direct Action Everywhere, of three trespass charges associated

553
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,480
with the rescue of sick and dying ducks

554
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,400
and chickens in factory farms.

555
00:23:19,340 --> 00:23:22,440
Now, advocates around the world are asking why

556
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,960
the Sonoma County District Attorney prosecuted a person

557
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,300
who was lawfully helping desperate animals instead of

558
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:32,480
the factory farmers engaging in criminal animal abuse.

559
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,700
Here's what New Yorkers have to say about

560
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:36,060
this miscarriage of justice.

561
00:23:36,980 --> 00:23:38,800
Sonoma County District Attorney.

562
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,380
You have evidence of animals with painful injuries

563
00:23:42,380 --> 00:23:45,400
who are starving to death right now because

564
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,600
they have no access to food and water.

565
00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:50,320
Animals are being criminally abused at a duck

566
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:51,260
farm in Petaluma.

567
00:23:51,620 --> 00:23:54,020
What steps are you taking to investigate and

568
00:23:54,020 --> 00:23:57,180
stop the rampant criminal animal cruelty in your

569
00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:58,080
animal factories?

570
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,220
How can you ignore the horrific abuse of

571
00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:04,600
thousands of animals in your jurisdiction?

572
00:24:05,780 --> 00:24:07,520
Sonoma County District Attorney.

573
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,700
When will you stop looking the other way

574
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:11,300
and prosecute this?

575
00:24:12,060 --> 00:24:14,880
I'm appalled that you sent an animal rescuer

576
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,240
to jail when all he did was try

577
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,100
to help the victims who your office is

578
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:20,780
neglecting.

579
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,320
Sonoma County District Attorney.

580
00:24:23,620 --> 00:24:24,860
Prosecute this.

581
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:26,940
Oh, you get the idea.

582
00:24:26,940 --> 00:24:29,260
I know this is a totally different organisation

583
00:24:29,260 --> 00:24:31,400
from yours and I'm not implying that you

584
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:32,940
guys are in any way connected.

585
00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:37,980
The commonality is you are trying to get

586
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:41,980
San Francisco Animal Care and Control to prosecute

587
00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:45,760
laws that say you cannot just chop up

588
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,840
animals alive in a wet market just because

589
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:48,700
it's a wet market.

590
00:24:49,460 --> 00:24:52,860
They are trying to get a district attorney

591
00:24:52,860 --> 00:24:55,560
in Sonoma County to prosecute what they say

592
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,260
are violations of animal cruelty laws happening in

593
00:24:58,260 --> 00:24:59,040
factory farms.

594
00:25:00,620 --> 00:25:03,900
And not only is there no prosecution, but

595
00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:08,160
the people who go into these facilities, in

596
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:09,720
your case, you didn't have to go into

597
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,480
any, it's a retail market.

598
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,780
You go in as a shopper.

599
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:14,540
But in their case, they've got to go

600
00:25:14,540 --> 00:25:17,040
in there to document, then they get prosecuted.

601
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:19,000
I mean, we're living in an upside down

602
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:19,340
world.

603
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:20,520
What are your thoughts on that?

604
00:25:21,180 --> 00:25:21,760
Yeah, absolutely.

605
00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:23,740
It's one of our biggest frustrations as an

606
00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:24,320
organisation.

607
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,560
So Animal Outlook's theory of change is we

608
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,180
do our undercover investigations.

609
00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:30,140
That's probably what people know us best for.

610
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:33,540
Then our legal team sues on the violations

611
00:25:33,540 --> 00:25:35,600
of criminal statutes that we find as a

612
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:36,660
result of our investigations.

613
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,240
And then we use all of that as

614
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,620
our evidence base for our vegan outreach programme.

615
00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:45,400
Now, the suing, the recommending charges, in the

616
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,260
case of live markets, recommended dozens of charges

617
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:50,300
and had one citation, as I mentioned, at

618
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:51,960
the top of the show issued.

619
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,280
It's just a lottery whether the people are

620
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,220
going, the judges in charge, whether the magistrates

621
00:25:59,220 --> 00:26:00,800
are going to take up, whether the district

622
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,800
attorney is even going to file the charges,

623
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,460
let alone it go to court, whether the

624
00:26:06,460 --> 00:26:07,980
police are going to take the time to

625
00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:08,540
investigate.

626
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:10,200
It's just a lottery.

627
00:26:10,420 --> 00:26:11,980
Sometimes you end up in the hands of

628
00:26:11,980 --> 00:26:15,320
a sympathetic district attorney and they take it

629
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:15,600
on.

630
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,480
And we have been successful in the past

631
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,900
of getting guilty pleas and successful prosecutions and

632
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,760
fines and prevention of ever working with animals

633
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:25,880
again orders.

634
00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:29,580
But a lot of the time, just getting

635
00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:32,200
people to prioritise the animal suffering that we

636
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,600
have documented so clearly and so meticulously, and

637
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,260
we take so much time and effort to

638
00:26:37,260 --> 00:26:40,120
do that, making sure that we're always on

639
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:41,080
the right side of the law.

640
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,200
We're not doing anything illegal, which would invalidate

641
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:43,960
all of the evidence.

642
00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:47,600
We do so carefully plan these things, but

643
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,180
just because someone doesn't feel like it, someone

644
00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:51,320
hasn't put it to the top of their

645
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,640
pile, these things can call for that.

646
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:55,600
And that could be months and months of

647
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,980
work down the drain.

648
00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:00,720
Now, in the case of direct action everywhere

649
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,120
and actually going after the wrong people, fortunately,

650
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,560
we've never been on that side.

651
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,240
And I hope that we're not on the

652
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,320
side of being prosecuted ourselves, because as I

653
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,180
say, we plan these things so meticulously and

654
00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:14,800
we aren't doing open rescues.

655
00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:18,520
Unfortunately, our investigators are in the impossible position

656
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,480
of having to watch the cruelty, having to

657
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,220
document the cruelty without having, otherwise they'd blow

658
00:27:25,220 --> 00:27:27,780
their cover, the ability to intervene and prevent

659
00:27:27,780 --> 00:27:28,520
it from happening.

660
00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:31,320
It's more impactful if we can document it,

661
00:27:31,940 --> 00:27:33,780
watch it and all the suffering that goes

662
00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:36,260
into it, and then extricate ourselves and then

663
00:27:36,260 --> 00:27:37,560
push for criminal prosecutions.

664
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,940
Because as we know, the way our theory

665
00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:42,540
of change works is if you can get

666
00:27:42,540 --> 00:27:44,380
those sympathetic DAs or the police to take

667
00:27:44,380 --> 00:27:45,760
this seriously, and you can get a judge

668
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,440
to rule when you have what's called the

669
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,080
police and other organisations, if you can do

670
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,800
that, you build up a series of case

671
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,760
law where then in the future, judges and

672
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,600
DAs have no alternative, but to say, okay,

673
00:28:00,620 --> 00:28:03,380
because this happened in the past and the

674
00:28:03,380 --> 00:28:05,460
case law is such, we have to now

675
00:28:05,460 --> 00:28:06,520
follow through on this.

676
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,700
Animals won't be, you know, it's like the

677
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:09,900
non-human rights project.

678
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,580
Animals can't be turned over again and again.

679
00:28:12,620 --> 00:28:14,800
At some point, the penny has to drop

680
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,040
and there has to be a tipping point

681
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,600
where suddenly it becomes imperative for people in

682
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,820
authority to act on the incomprehensible, but also

683
00:28:25,820 --> 00:28:28,240
the irrefutable evidence that we've provided.

684
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:31,220
Well, you talk about tipping points.

685
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:34,360
So let's broaden our conversation out a little

686
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:38,320
bit because let's face it, the animal rights

687
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,500
movement has been under attack lately.

688
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,400
The vegan movement has been under attack.

689
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:47,080
Personally, the way I see it, when Beyond

690
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,780
Meat's incredibly successful initial public offering hit in

691
00:28:51,780 --> 00:28:55,380
2019, the stock shot up, everybody was talking

692
00:28:55,380 --> 00:28:55,860
about it.

693
00:28:55,980 --> 00:28:58,380
Animal agriculture went, oh my gosh, we better.

694
00:28:58,980 --> 00:29:02,040
And they literally started a PR war against

695
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,080
veggie burgers and it's taken its toll.

696
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,820
That's why I always tell vegans, I don't

697
00:29:07,820 --> 00:29:12,180
care what your form of veganism is, don't

698
00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:13,140
attack veggie burgers.

699
00:29:13,140 --> 00:29:15,880
They're a thousand times healthier than meat burgers.

700
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,280
Processed meat is officially cancer causing and all

701
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,600
processed is not equal.

702
00:29:20,740 --> 00:29:22,580
You take a banana and a mango and

703
00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:24,360
you mush them up, that's processed.

704
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,780
That doesn't mean it's bad for you.

705
00:29:26,260 --> 00:29:29,220
But suffice it to say that I urge

706
00:29:29,220 --> 00:29:32,960
people, do not repeat meat industry talking points.

707
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,060
So there's that.

708
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:41,480
And unfortunately, if we look at the number

709
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,940
of animals killed, it continues to go up.

710
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:47,380
Now, when I look at this and it

711
00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:49,300
breaks my heart to look at this, and

712
00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:52,460
this is the result of all sorts of

713
00:29:52,460 --> 00:29:54,520
individuals across the world making a choice to

714
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,800
eat animals, but you can see very clearly

715
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,440
that the number one animal being killed for

716
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:01,200
food is chicken.

717
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,420
And this to me seems that it's gotta

718
00:30:06,420 --> 00:30:09,480
be an opportunity that if we could somehow,

719
00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:12,580
you've got the bird flu issue, right?

720
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,440
You've got the health issues of cholesterol and

721
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,260
heart disease.

722
00:30:17,540 --> 00:30:20,240
You've got so many issues.

723
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,100
If we could convince people just to forsake

724
00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:29,060
chicken as a first step, perhaps, even though

725
00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:31,100
that seems to be sometimes the first thing

726
00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:33,680
when people give up eating quote unquote red

727
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:34,980
meat, they start eating chicken.

728
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,280
But to me, there's gotta be an opportunity

729
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:42,000
there to just tackle this massive chicken consumption

730
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,860
and maybe put a dent in those numbers.

731
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,560
I know it's a little off topic, but

732
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,280
I was wondering what your thoughts are on

733
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:48,420
that.

734
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,220
Yeah, absolutely, you're right.

735
00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:52,400
Chickens are by far the most abused animal

736
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,140
on the planet.

737
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,220
And that's why a lot of our undercover

738
00:30:55,220 --> 00:31:00,360
investigations are in grower farms, they're in contract

739
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,460
catcher crews.

740
00:31:03,540 --> 00:31:05,440
The suffering is enormous.

741
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,720
Our most recent investigation, Jane, which you had

742
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:08,980
me on the show for a few months

743
00:31:08,980 --> 00:31:11,740
ago, of Foster Farms, which is California's largest

744
00:31:11,740 --> 00:31:15,960
poultry producer, showed workers violently throwing and kicking

745
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,140
the animals and punching them, and forklifts, trucks

746
00:31:19,140 --> 00:31:20,980
running over, clipping the wings of birds and

747
00:31:20,980 --> 00:31:22,880
then backing up over them as well.

748
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,660
So we know that the cruelty happens.

749
00:31:25,780 --> 00:31:27,360
We know that it's a cause of, at

750
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,120
the moment, certainly bird flu, when you keep

751
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,780
that many animals tightly compacted into one of

752
00:31:32,780 --> 00:31:33,800
those windowless sheds.

753
00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:36,460
So we do go after chicken.

754
00:31:36,460 --> 00:31:39,540
I think what the ability of the conversations

755
00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:42,980
around live markets allows us to do is

756
00:31:42,980 --> 00:31:45,920
also to have those kinds of conversations with

757
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,340
people as a new entry point.

758
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,020
Because you get to people who eat chicken

759
00:31:50,020 --> 00:31:52,700
but are against the suffering of turtles and

760
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:55,580
frogs by saying, well, what's the difference between

761
00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:57,960
a turtle, a frog, and a chicken?

762
00:31:58,180 --> 00:31:59,720
These abuses happen everywhere.

763
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,660
My personal opinion is if there's money to

764
00:32:01,660 --> 00:32:03,660
be made from animals, corners are going to

765
00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:05,220
be cut and animals are going to suffer.

766
00:32:05,220 --> 00:32:06,880
That happens anywhere.

767
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,880
So we have to take the use of

768
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,480
animals out of the system, the money, monetary

769
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,800
incentives, the financial incentives out of it, and

770
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,600
then animals will cease to suffer.

771
00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:20,620
But for now, chicken is, you know, it

772
00:32:20,620 --> 00:32:22,440
is the number one abused animal.

773
00:32:22,940 --> 00:32:24,560
It is the one that, if we could

774
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,120
end the suffering of chickens, we would have

775
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,020
done a lot to end the suffering of

776
00:32:29,020 --> 00:32:29,840
animals altogether.

777
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,720
I think the meat substitutes that you've talked

778
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,240
about, the technology is just getting better and

779
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:36,460
better.

780
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,220
You know, we did have that high point

781
00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:40,180
at the IPO of Beyond Meat.

782
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:41,920
It seems to have plateaued now.

783
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:42,960
And I think that has a lot to

784
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,060
do with the cost of living crisis, the

785
00:32:45,060 --> 00:32:46,980
fact that inflation is so high and people

786
00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:50,160
just aren't feeling that ability to spend a

787
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:50,400
bit more.

788
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:52,480
As the technology improves, as the economy of

789
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,200
scale grows, you know, I just had the

790
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,180
impossible Lion King nuggets that I give to

791
00:32:59,180 --> 00:32:59,660
my kids.

792
00:33:00,740 --> 00:33:03,000
You know, that's a wonderful invention that replaces

793
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,160
those kind of dino nugget things that Tyson

794
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,160
Purdue and all those companies produce.

795
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,400
So that is the way that we do

796
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,920
this by scaling up those fantastic, delicious, that

797
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:16,980
just come on leaps and bounds in the

798
00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:17,660
last decade.

799
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,780
Certainly, you know, Jane, you and I remember

800
00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:21,480
what it was like to eat all those

801
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,480
analogue, let's call them, initial first round burgers

802
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,500
and franks and those kinds of things.

803
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,060
So that's how we do it.

804
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:30,220
We keep showing the cruelty.

805
00:33:30,220 --> 00:33:32,100
We keep breaking out of our vegan bubble

806
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:34,380
as well, because we're the best one in

807
00:33:34,380 --> 00:33:34,700
the world.

808
00:33:34,860 --> 00:33:36,560
We are a relatively small community.

809
00:33:37,060 --> 00:33:38,780
We need to keep taking our footage to

810
00:33:38,780 --> 00:33:40,780
the streets to show people who have never

811
00:33:40,780 --> 00:33:42,240
seen this, who have never thought about animal

812
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,740
suffering in their life, who have never tasted

813
00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:46,860
a veggie burger, let alone an impossible dino

814
00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:49,920
nugget, and show them and get them to

815
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,720
realise just how wonderful this world is.

816
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,080
And if they could make choices in their

817
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,520
daily lives, which don't have any suffering, you

818
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,220
know, why would they choose otherwise?

819
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:00,880
Yes, you're making so many good points.

820
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,920
And I feel there's no stopping a movement

821
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,120
whose time has come and ours has certainly

822
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:08,500
come.

823
00:34:09,219 --> 00:34:11,560
This New York Times article, I think, sums

824
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,020
it up.

825
00:34:12,620 --> 00:34:14,280
Save the planet, put down that hamburger.

826
00:34:15,020 --> 00:34:18,400
Researchers examined the diet of 55,500 people

827
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,659
and found that vegans are responsible for 75

828
00:34:20,659 --> 00:34:24,699
% less in greenhouse gases than meat eaters.

829
00:34:25,219 --> 00:34:29,380
And, you know, it's interesting because no other

830
00:34:29,380 --> 00:34:30,699
network picked that up.

831
00:34:31,860 --> 00:34:34,780
I looked that night and for next couple

832
00:34:34,780 --> 00:34:37,880
of nights, you never hear mainstream media talking

833
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,260
about animal agriculture's impact on the climate or

834
00:34:41,260 --> 00:34:44,800
a plant-based solution to the climate crisis.

835
00:34:45,219 --> 00:34:46,159
And why is that?

836
00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:48,960
Look at the advertisers, meat, dairy, fast food,

837
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,000
pharmaceuticals.

838
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,400
Those are the very industries that would suffer

839
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,740
mightily if people got healthy and stopped eating

840
00:34:57,370 --> 00:34:59,560
meat and dairy packed fast food that is

841
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,300
causing so many health crises in this country.

842
00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:06,600
Two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese.

843
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:10,300
We have heart disease as a leading killer.

844
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:12,600
We have cancer, processed meat is officially cancer

845
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:13,000
causing.

846
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,240
According to the World Health Organisation, even the

847
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,160
NIH, National Institutes of Health admits that most

848
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,000
people experience lactose malabsorption.

849
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,700
That means most people are allergic to dairy

850
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:25,800
and shouldn't be drinking it.

851
00:35:27,100 --> 00:35:29,340
I would just like to get your thoughts.

852
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,900
Why is it that what is so obvious

853
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:35,520
to us, and, you know, it's very apparent

854
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,060
in the media today that they like to

855
00:35:39,060 --> 00:35:42,560
look at sort of these, ah, you know,

856
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,840
solutions or things that are trending.

857
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,480
And I like to cite the 80-20

858
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,000
rule.

859
00:35:49,580 --> 00:35:51,360
I typed it down here somewhere.

860
00:35:51,460 --> 00:35:52,080
I can't find it.

861
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,500
But anyway, the 80-20 rule is that

862
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:58,480
20% of inputs create 80% of

863
00:35:58,480 --> 00:35:58,980
outcomes.

864
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,660
And as soon as I saw that and

865
00:36:00,660 --> 00:36:02,300
read an article about it, I was like,

866
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,280
ta-dum, that is animal agriculture.

867
00:36:06,660 --> 00:36:09,400
It's the 20% creating the 80%

868
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:14,120
of negative outcomes for the climate, animal abuse,

869
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,560
human health, ah, disasters, ah, pollution, you know,

870
00:36:19,620 --> 00:36:24,200
ocean desertification, ah, all sorts of problems that

871
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,720
are the result of this one industry.

872
00:36:27,620 --> 00:36:31,240
Why do you think the intelligentsia, and it's

873
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:32,680
a bipartisan problem.

874
00:36:34,460 --> 00:36:38,880
Both administrations have been, well, historically, Republicans and

875
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,420
Democrats have been horrible on this issue.

876
00:36:41,460 --> 00:36:43,420
Let's say in the past, historically.

877
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:44,560
I don't want to get into politics.

878
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,900
But why do you think that the best

879
00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:49,680
and the brightest, the smartest in the room

880
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,240
can't see what is so obvious to us?

881
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,200
Yeah, I mean, it's a really interesting question.

882
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,160
And it's one that kind of confounds behaviour

883
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,200
scientists to this day.

884
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,460
We've done a lot of research.

885
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,420
We worked with the Yale School for Environment

886
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:07,100
and Public Health.

887
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:09,240
We've worked with the School of Communications down

888
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:10,240
at the University of Florida.

889
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,500
Because this aspect of how you change human

890
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:14,880
behaviour is so important.

891
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,280
And there are, when you're talking about something

892
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,140
that you've put into your body three times

893
00:37:19,140 --> 00:37:21,500
a day, it's a very loaded question.

894
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,300
People, there's such cultural identity that people associate

895
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:24,940
with food.

896
00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:26,500
I mean, we started talking about the fly

897
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:27,120
market issue.

898
00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:30,920
You know, the cultural identity issue, the familial

899
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,480
ties, the social aspects.

900
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:35,640
You know, there's a lot that goes into

901
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:36,840
people's food choices.

902
00:37:36,980 --> 00:37:39,260
I mean, that's why it's fairly easy to

903
00:37:39,260 --> 00:37:42,420
get people, the general public riled up about

904
00:37:42,420 --> 00:37:45,600
the torture of cats and dogs, but not

905
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,160
about, you know, the chicken, the pigs, the

906
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,820
cows that they're putting into their bodies because

907
00:37:50,820 --> 00:37:53,880
of all these emotive societal ties that go

908
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:54,320
into it.

909
00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:56,020
So I think there's that.

910
00:37:56,140 --> 00:37:57,840
I think there's a huge blind spot when

911
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,140
it comes to the information.

912
00:37:59,260 --> 00:38:02,320
I also think that people have lost trust

913
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,380
in the media and partly for the reasons

914
00:38:04,380 --> 00:38:05,580
you talk about, advertisement.

915
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:08,340
And people, they see things in journals and

916
00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:11,800
they just don't believe them anymore, which is

917
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,500
a psyche that goes beyond our animal protection

918
00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:18,280
movements and invades all kinds of other movements

919
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:18,900
as well.

920
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,580
So there's that barrier to get across.

921
00:38:21,820 --> 00:38:24,500
But we have the problem, and Jane, you'll

922
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:26,740
know this because you're in the news.

923
00:38:27,260 --> 00:38:30,660
We struggle to get our investigations out there

924
00:38:30,660 --> 00:38:32,580
even because a lot of the news editors

925
00:38:32,580 --> 00:38:35,120
will say, I mean, we know it's slaughter,

926
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:35,920
it's horrible.

927
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:37,900
We know that animals suffer.

928
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,880
Yeah, when you go and talk to the

929
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,980
general public and show them this, they say,

930
00:38:44,220 --> 00:38:45,880
wow, I didn't think this kind of thing

931
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,180
happened.

932
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:46,960
This is shocking.

933
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:49,540
No, it happens every day.

934
00:38:49,540 --> 00:38:52,660
In every investigation that we do, we find

935
00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:57,220
instances of cruelty to animals, blatant, egregious cruelty

936
00:38:57,220 --> 00:38:57,900
to animals.

937
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:00,920
But, you know, so it's a strange paradox

938
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,600
where the news is saying, we know this,

939
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,620
we know it's cruel, yet the general public

940
00:39:05,620 --> 00:39:05,960
doesn't.

941
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,860
So someone's not doing their job properly and

942
00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:10,820
someone's not doing enough to educate the public,

943
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,920
or maybe the public also just have this

944
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,360
blind spot and don't want to know.

945
00:39:14,660 --> 00:39:18,600
And everything, it's what I think is called

946
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:19,660
cognitive dissonance.

947
00:39:19,740 --> 00:39:21,220
People have just switched off.

948
00:39:21,460 --> 00:39:22,540
You know, I don't want to know.

949
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,460
I think the world is all hunky-dory

950
00:39:25,460 --> 00:39:27,820
and I think that animals live outside in

951
00:39:27,820 --> 00:39:30,060
fields and enjoy, and there's just one tiny

952
00:39:30,060 --> 00:39:31,200
moment at the end of their lives.

953
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:32,760
That's just not the case.

954
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,220
We prove it on a daily basis with

955
00:39:35,220 --> 00:39:38,040
our investigations, yet breaking through into the mainstream

956
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:40,240
and changing people's consciousness.

957
00:39:40,380 --> 00:39:42,440
That's why a lot of organisations like mine,

958
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,740
like Animal Outlook, like everyone else, is really

959
00:39:45,740 --> 00:39:48,020
searching for how do we get our message

960
00:39:48,020 --> 00:39:48,460
out there?

961
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,760
Because, Jane, you're wonderful in inviting us into

962
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,760
the show and talking about it, but just

963
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,200
there's not enough opportunities to do that.

964
00:39:55,980 --> 00:39:57,320
Well, absolutely.

965
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,280
I started this because I was in mainstream

966
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,200
media for decades and I've been behind the

967
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:03,460
curtain.

968
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:05,620
And you don't have to have somebody knock

969
00:40:05,620 --> 00:40:06,960
on your door and say, hey, don't talk

970
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,540
about that.

971
00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:10,620
You just look at the advertising on your

972
00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:12,400
network and you could do the math pretty

973
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:12,800
easily.

974
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,640
You shouldn't talk about that.

975
00:40:14,900 --> 00:40:17,140
And again, this is across the board.

976
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,160
It doesn't matter which network.

977
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,640
If there's advertising involved, they're not gonna cover

978
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:25,280
it generally.

979
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,900
Now, you have had success, though, in getting

980
00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:31,580
some mainstream media coverage.

981
00:40:31,820 --> 00:40:34,620
On this particular issue, the horrors in the

982
00:40:34,620 --> 00:40:37,700
live market, you were on CBS News, San

983
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:41,260
Francisco Standard, and as I understand it, the

984
00:40:41,260 --> 00:40:42,220
Daily Mail.

985
00:40:42,780 --> 00:40:45,840
So what is your strategy when you approach

986
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,360
these media organisations?

987
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,700
How do you work it that you're able,

988
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,500
because you have to claw your way, like

989
00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:55,620
getting one of these articles.

990
00:40:55,620 --> 00:40:58,040
I know how hard it is.

991
00:40:58,500 --> 00:40:59,520
How do you do it?

992
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,920
I mean, it's a really difficult process.

993
00:41:05,380 --> 00:41:08,240
I came up in the animal protection movement

994
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:09,960
through doing press.

995
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,220
Before I joined the animal protection movement in

996
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:17,300
2011, I was an economist and I was

997
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,400
working in the city when the financial crisis

998
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:20,860
of 2009 happened.

999
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,000
And suddenly there was a lot of demand

1000
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,780
from the news to work out what would

1001
00:41:25,780 --> 00:41:27,580
happen to the labour market, what would happen

1002
00:41:27,580 --> 00:41:28,200
to interest rates.

1003
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,440
And so I started doing a lot of

1004
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:30,520
press at my firm.

1005
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,500
And so my first job in the movement

1006
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:35,480
was with PETA, who do a lot of

1007
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,260
press themselves and working in the press office.

1008
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:38,280
And I did that for seven years.

1009
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,360
So I learned some things along the way

1010
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,960
about how to package a story, how to

1011
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,840
make it interesting and make it easy for

1012
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,340
reporters, because reporters are doing sometimes two or

1013
00:41:49,340 --> 00:41:50,200
three stories a day.

1014
00:41:50,260 --> 00:41:52,060
I spoke to one Daily Mail journalist once

1015
00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:53,640
who was doing 16 stories a day.

1016
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:55,840
So you have to make it easy as

1017
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:56,180
a PR.

1018
00:41:56,860 --> 00:41:59,940
There's tonnes of tips and tricks and dark

1019
00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:01,940
arts of PR as well, which Jane, I

1020
00:42:01,940 --> 00:42:04,280
know you know all about.

1021
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,000
But it's about being relentless.

1022
00:42:07,220 --> 00:42:08,760
It's about, it's the same thing with our

1023
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:09,100
movement.

1024
00:42:09,220 --> 00:42:10,960
And that's why I think communicators are really

1025
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,540
important in our movement, because you just have

1026
00:42:13,540 --> 00:42:14,040
to be relentless.

1027
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:16,800
You can't say no for an answer, and

1028
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,540
you can't be dispirited by it either.

1029
00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:22,120
If we took every knock and every hurdle

1030
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,280
in the road as we took it personally,

1031
00:42:25,580 --> 00:42:28,100
then we wouldn't achieve as much as we

1032
00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:28,380
can.

1033
00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:31,800
So you have to keep getting back, keep

1034
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:32,860
moving forward.

1035
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:35,240
And that's the only way.

1036
00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:36,400
So it's about being relentless.

1037
00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:37,740
It's about sending to a lot of people.

1038
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:39,860
And you do find people, going back to

1039
00:42:39,860 --> 00:42:44,000
one point, and it's specific about who is

1040
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,920
vegan, why we, you and I, Jane, and

1041
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,040
many of your audience, I'm sure, why we've

1042
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:50,680
made the connection.

1043
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,840
What I love about our movement and why

1044
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,740
I'm so positive that we will make a

1045
00:42:55,740 --> 00:42:59,480
vegan world happen is because you can, there's

1046
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,240
vegans in every section of society, whether you're

1047
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:04,040
in the news or you're a doctor or

1048
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,460
you're a labourer, it doesn't take anything special

1049
00:43:08,460 --> 00:43:09,500
to be vegan.

1050
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,080
You just have to, a switch has to

1051
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:12,800
flip on.

1052
00:43:13,660 --> 00:43:18,300
And so that's why I'm so buoyed about

1053
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:20,840
the future is because there's no barrier to

1054
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:21,100
entry.

1055
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:23,540
It's just about going, oh yeah, that's wrong.

1056
00:43:23,740 --> 00:43:24,540
And I shouldn't do that.

1057
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:25,820
And I have the power to change.

1058
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:26,880
I mean, so much in the world that

1059
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:27,560
we can't change.

1060
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:29,080
I have the power to do something about

1061
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,280
it every time I sit down to eat.

1062
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,300
And so you find those sympathetic reporters, those

1063
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:35,280
reporters who you know, they're either vegan or

1064
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:36,360
they have an interest in it, or you

1065
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,140
think this, or their editors are saying, yeah,

1066
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:41,540
this is a subject we really need to

1067
00:43:41,540 --> 00:43:42,040
do more on.

1068
00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:44,300
And certainly some outlets, Jane, you were wonderful

1069
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:46,200
when you were doing a mainstream and now

1070
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,580
you're wonderful being so focused on this now.

1071
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,400
But there are a few reporters who you

1072
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,400
know, you can go back to and who

1073
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,340
have a megaphone who can say, yeah, this

1074
00:43:54,340 --> 00:43:55,840
is an issue that needs closer attention.

1075
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,300
Well, thank you for those kind words.

1076
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,060
There are a lot of, Vox is doing

1077
00:44:01,060 --> 00:44:01,620
great work.

1078
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,360
Sentient Media is doing great work.

1079
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,800
The Guardian, which is not as advertiser based

1080
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,120
because my understanding is that there's a trust

1081
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,480
that runs them, does incredible work on animal

1082
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:13,740
rights.

1083
00:44:13,740 --> 00:44:17,740
So yes, Independent Media is doing some really

1084
00:44:17,740 --> 00:44:20,080
good work and we just hope it increases.

1085
00:44:20,260 --> 00:44:23,580
So getting back to our subject, what's next

1086
00:44:23,580 --> 00:44:27,520
for this live animal horror story?

1087
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,160
Like what is it that people should do?

1088
00:44:31,580 --> 00:44:32,820
What are you gonna do?

1089
00:44:32,980 --> 00:44:34,980
Are there hearings that can be attended?

1090
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:36,480
What's going on?

1091
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,100
Yeah, thanks for asking.

1092
00:44:38,260 --> 00:44:39,920
So there is actually a hearing of the

1093
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,700
Commission on Animal Welfare in San Francisco next

1094
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:46,540
Thursday, Thursday the 13th at 5.30 PM

1095
00:44:46,540 --> 00:44:48,000
at City Hall in San Francisco.

1096
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,260
And we urge people who want to, to

1097
00:44:50,260 --> 00:44:50,820
please come.

1098
00:44:50,980 --> 00:44:52,240
As if you're a resident of San Francisco,

1099
00:44:52,420 --> 00:44:52,920
even better.

1100
00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:54,660
You can have your say, you can have

1101
00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:57,980
your 30 seconds and give your opinion about

1102
00:44:57,980 --> 00:44:59,880
why these places should be shut down to

1103
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:00,340
the Commission.

1104
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,480
The Commission itself have been very good to

1105
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:02,900
work with.

1106
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,240
They don't have the power, they're not the

1107
00:45:04,240 --> 00:45:08,280
ACC, but they are representing San Franciscans when

1108
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,720
it comes to issues of animal welfare.

1109
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,980
So they will, hopefully if they take this

1110
00:45:13,980 --> 00:45:15,920
issue on board, they will put some more

1111
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,620
pressure on ACC to do more enforcement when

1112
00:45:18,620 --> 00:45:20,940
it comes to live markets.

1113
00:45:21,140 --> 00:45:23,480
And so, yep, Thursday the 13th at 5

1114
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:24,580
.30, City Hall.

1115
00:45:24,780 --> 00:45:27,300
We're having a little photo up on the

1116
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:29,480
steps of City Hall and a little protest

1117
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,880
before five o'clock on Thursday, February 13th.

1118
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,280
So please do join us there in San

1119
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,120
Francisco if you can.

1120
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,340
There's an Eventbrite page that we've created.

1121
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,240
We will, yeah, we'll send some information around

1122
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:46,300
if you join our mailing list next week.

1123
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,260
So please do join us for that.

1124
00:45:49,740 --> 00:45:51,540
And once- So if people go to

1125
00:45:51,540 --> 00:45:55,540
animaloutlook.org and there's a place to sign

1126
00:45:55,540 --> 00:45:59,180
up, go to animaloutlook.org and poke around,

1127
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,040
but they can get all the information that

1128
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:03,320
you've talked about there.

1129
00:46:03,780 --> 00:46:06,280
Yeah, yeah, they can indeed sign up to

1130
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:06,780
our mailing list.

1131
00:46:06,860 --> 00:46:08,580
We'll send some information out about it next

1132
00:46:08,580 --> 00:46:08,900
week.

1133
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,060
As a reminder, sign up to the Eventbrite

1134
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:14,460
page and we look forward to seeing you

1135
00:46:14,460 --> 00:46:14,560
there.

1136
00:46:14,620 --> 00:46:15,920
We already know that we have at least

1137
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,620
10 people coming who will have their say.

1138
00:46:18,940 --> 00:46:21,280
So we're really grateful for the support.

1139
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,960
And then the ball's really in ACC's court.

1140
00:46:24,380 --> 00:46:26,680
If they continue not to take it seriously,

1141
00:46:26,780 --> 00:46:28,080
we'll have to look to step up our

1142
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:28,420
campaign.

1143
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,620
It might mean looking to make a political

1144
00:46:31,620 --> 00:46:34,900
change, getting the council, getting the city government

1145
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:38,260
involved, because some of these things, as you

1146
00:46:38,260 --> 00:46:40,040
alluded to Jane, are decided on the ballot,

1147
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,940
at the ballot box, are decided at the

1148
00:46:42,940 --> 00:46:44,420
higher echelons of politics.

1149
00:46:44,620 --> 00:46:46,900
And so we hope that they'll see the

1150
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:48,320
necessity to do something about it.

1151
00:46:48,380 --> 00:46:50,940
We think it's really clear, it's night and

1152
00:46:50,940 --> 00:46:54,440
day, but if they fail to continuously, then

1153
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,520
we're gonna have to move higher up and

1154
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:57,380
further our tactics.

1155
00:46:57,980 --> 00:47:00,000
Well, we've only got a couple of minutes.

1156
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,980
Let's just get personal.

1157
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,840
How do you handle dealing with all of

1158
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,020
these very difficult subjects?

1159
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,500
As I said, just editing the videos to

1160
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:15,840
put them on, it takes a toll, but

1161
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,720
nothing like what you have to go through

1162
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,320
probably looking at many, many, many hours and

1163
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,560
really saturating yourself in this horror.

1164
00:47:25,060 --> 00:47:26,220
How do you handle it?

1165
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:28,900
For those who are also involved in animal

1166
00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:32,100
activism, who are watching sometimes say, oh, I'm

1167
00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:33,260
getting so burnt out.

1168
00:47:34,740 --> 00:47:36,120
Yeah, it's horrible stuff.

1169
00:47:36,380 --> 00:47:40,300
I mean, you have to desensitise yourself a

1170
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:42,060
little bit to it in order to survive.

1171
00:47:42,420 --> 00:47:44,520
You have to remember why you're here and

1172
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:46,380
why you're in the privileged position of being

1173
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:48,900
able to work on behalf of animals.

1174
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,260
And that keeps you going.

1175
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,180
But we do, certainly when it comes to

1176
00:47:53,180 --> 00:47:55,760
our investigators and mental health, we take that

1177
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:56,640
incredibly seriously.

1178
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,680
We have a support system for not just

1179
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,860
our investigators, but all kinds of people doing

1180
00:48:01,860 --> 00:48:03,040
investigations in the field.

1181
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,720
Because as I say, when you're actually living

1182
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:07,640
in it, you think it's bad to watch

1183
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,580
it when you're actually having to work in

1184
00:48:09,580 --> 00:48:09,740
it.

1185
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:11,600
That's a whole nother level, which I just

1186
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:12,120
can't imagine.

1187
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:13,080
I've never done it myself.

1188
00:48:13,380 --> 00:48:15,680
So we take it incredibly seriously, the mental

1189
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,040
health side and preparing people for it and

1190
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,100
then giving them the resources, the support system.

1191
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:26,060
So yeah, it's nasty stuff, but it happens.

1192
00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:29,400
And if you really want to end it,

1193
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:30,600
if you don't want to see it, then

1194
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,620
you've got to work to prevent it from

1195
00:48:32,620 --> 00:48:34,560
happening because otherwise you're just burying your head

1196
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:35,040
in the sand.

1197
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,620
So we appreciate, it's not for everybody.

1198
00:48:38,500 --> 00:48:41,500
We just appreciate any elements of support.

1199
00:48:41,900 --> 00:48:43,440
If it's not something that you can watch,

1200
00:48:43,540 --> 00:48:45,540
then hopefully you can help us by signing

1201
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:48,520
those petitions, by donating and by having your

1202
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:50,300
say at council meetings and things like that.

1203
00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:53,940
I think the heroes of our movement, the

1204
00:48:53,940 --> 00:48:56,840
real heroes of our movement are those who

1205
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:57,600
go undercover.

1206
00:48:58,180 --> 00:49:00,220
I could tell you right now, I could

1207
00:49:00,220 --> 00:49:00,860
never do it.

1208
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,880
It just takes a certain personality, a certain

1209
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,220
level of bravery, grit and endurance.

1210
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:13,100
And you have some of the top undercover

1211
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:15,820
investigators in the animal rights movement.

1212
00:49:16,700 --> 00:49:18,000
Tell us about that.

1213
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,680
Yeah, our investigations team has a combined experience

1214
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,980
of about 16 years.

1215
00:49:24,060 --> 00:49:26,800
They actually train other investigators in the movement

1216
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:30,780
through the International Investigator Training Programme and create

1217
00:49:30,780 --> 00:49:31,780
that support system.

1218
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,180
So there are other fantastic investigators doing a

1219
00:49:34,180 --> 00:49:34,840
lot in the field.

1220
00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:37,760
But as you say, Animal Outlook, we started

1221
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,060
doing this about 25 years ago, doing undercover

1222
00:49:41,060 --> 00:49:42,880
investigations, doing open rescues actually.

1223
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:47,180
And we've just got such a great strategy,

1224
00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:48,640
which I was lucky enough to inherit from

1225
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,560
my predecessor, Sheryl Leahy, who was at the

1226
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,080
organisation for 18 years.

1227
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,780
And there's just such a good strategy and

1228
00:49:55,780 --> 00:49:59,080
such a good structure in place that we

1229
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,200
can do two or three of these undercover

1230
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:02,620
investigations every year.

1231
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,700
So we're in a lucky position to be

1232
00:50:05,700 --> 00:50:06,240
able to do it.

1233
00:50:06,260 --> 00:50:07,640
It's a privilege to work for animals.

1234
00:50:07,980 --> 00:50:10,980
It's a tough job, but it's one that

1235
00:50:10,980 --> 00:50:12,300
we feel has to be done.

1236
00:50:14,340 --> 00:50:16,460
And we're lucky enough to be able to

1237
00:50:16,460 --> 00:50:16,740
do it.

1238
00:50:16,740 --> 00:50:19,700
I think one of the statements being made

1239
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:22,800
here by commentators who are watching on social

1240
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,660
media really gets to the heart of the

1241
00:50:24,660 --> 00:50:24,880
matter.

1242
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,500
What good are laws if they're not enforced?

1243
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,380
California has passed, and I collected signatures years

1244
00:50:32,380 --> 00:50:32,860
ago.

1245
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,240
I threw a party for Prop 2.

1246
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:39,520
And Prop 12, I was so excited.

1247
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,960
But if it's not enforced, and if the

1248
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,580
laws against cruelty in San Francisco or in

1249
00:50:46,580 --> 00:50:49,760
LA or in San Diego or wherever in

1250
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,880
California, we have some of the toughest laws,

1251
00:50:51,980 --> 00:50:54,680
but if they're not enforced, what's the point?

1252
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,940
And Tom makes a very good, I think,

1253
00:50:58,180 --> 00:50:59,860
summary of the entire issue.

1254
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,080
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1255
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,520
We have to enforce the law.

1256
00:51:03,620 --> 00:51:06,020
That's why we work really hard with judges,

1257
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,020
with prosecutors to bring about enforcement of it.

1258
00:51:10,340 --> 00:51:11,840
It's just a matter of priority.

1259
00:51:12,020 --> 00:51:13,700
And I think you don't have to be

1260
00:51:13,700 --> 00:51:16,980
a lawyer or a judge or involved in

1261
00:51:16,980 --> 00:51:17,560
the legal system.

1262
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,100
If you care about animals, you do have

1263
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:22,360
to just put pressure on whomever you can,

1264
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,620
be it the politicians, be it your local

1265
00:51:25,620 --> 00:51:26,220
representatives.

1266
00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:28,620
Get to know your city councillor.

1267
00:51:28,700 --> 00:51:29,580
Get to know your mayor.

1268
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,460
These people at local government level, they're the

1269
00:51:32,460 --> 00:51:34,200
ones who can influence the legal system.

1270
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,460
And if the prosecutors aren't taking action, then

1271
00:51:37,460 --> 00:51:38,320
they can get them out.

1272
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,900
So wherever you are in your advocacy, get

1273
00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:45,300
to know your political representatives because you can

1274
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:47,740
help create change at the ballot box.

1275
00:51:47,820 --> 00:51:49,380
Let's vote in the people who do care

1276
00:51:49,380 --> 00:51:51,500
about animals and let's replace the people in

1277
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:52,900
positions of power who don't.

1278
00:51:53,660 --> 00:51:55,740
So there's lots of actions that we as

1279
00:51:55,740 --> 00:51:58,740
individuals can take if we're of the mind

1280
00:51:58,740 --> 00:51:59,320
to do so.

1281
00:51:59,660 --> 00:52:02,080
And you're a very positive person.

1282
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:04,780
Everybody's saying, wow, great, your optimism.

1283
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,140
Sometimes I'm not as optimistic.

1284
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,520
And what really got me was we just

1285
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:13,380
went through a pandemic.

1286
00:52:13,380 --> 00:52:16,460
Now we're looking at a possible pandemic.

1287
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,840
And I'm not the one saying that.

1288
00:52:18,980 --> 00:52:19,800
I'm not a scientist.

1289
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,980
The New York Times has said bird flu

1290
00:52:22,980 --> 00:52:24,440
is entering a new phase.

1291
00:52:25,540 --> 00:52:28,640
It's not that a pandemic is inevitable, but

1292
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,320
it says right at the bottom, the possibility

1293
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:31,800
is no longer remote.

1294
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,700
Okay, that's all the news that's fit to

1295
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:34,880
print.

1296
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,900
It seems like we don't learn from our

1297
00:52:37,900 --> 00:52:38,700
past mistakes.

1298
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,540
As you said, whether it started in the

1299
00:52:41,540 --> 00:52:44,540
Wuhan market where they were torturing animals and

1300
00:52:44,540 --> 00:52:47,300
chopping them up as every live market and

1301
00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:49,880
keeping them in cramped conditions where disease can

1302
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,080
spread, or they were torturing animals in experimentations

1303
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:54,060
at the Wuhan lab.

1304
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,480
Animal abuse was at the heart of that

1305
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,060
pandemic and animal abuse will be at the

1306
00:53:00,060 --> 00:53:01,800
heart of a next pandemic.

1307
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,340
God forbid, I don't wanna see it if

1308
00:53:04,340 --> 00:53:04,940
it happens.

1309
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:10,280
It seems like humans are not learning the

1310
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,740
key lesson.

1311
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:17,640
And it's groupthink, groupthink that allows people to

1312
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,660
say, I'm just not gonna connect the dots.

1313
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,560
The powers that be aren't connecting the dots.

1314
00:53:22,740 --> 00:53:24,480
The media is not connecting the dots.

1315
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,740
The government isn't connecting the dots.

1316
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:31,800
The government is not even acknowledging, and I'm

1317
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,900
talking about bipartisan, not acknowledging the impact of

1318
00:53:34,900 --> 00:53:36,560
animal agriculture on the climate.

1319
00:53:37,140 --> 00:53:40,000
Even though way back in 2008, the United

1320
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,780
Nations said that animal agriculture is responsible for

1321
00:53:42,780 --> 00:53:46,740
more greenhouse gas emissions than all transportation combined.

1322
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:48,940
Nobody's talking about it.

1323
00:53:49,180 --> 00:53:52,440
The UN COP conferences, they don't talk about

1324
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:52,800
it.

1325
00:53:53,480 --> 00:54:00,130
So I guess our final thoughts, your final

1326
00:54:00,130 --> 00:54:02,450
thought before we wrap up, sorry.

1327
00:54:03,010 --> 00:54:05,270
No, how do you stay positive knowing that

1328
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:07,970
there's such a massive industry and inertia against

1329
00:54:07,970 --> 00:54:08,250
you?

1330
00:54:08,510 --> 00:54:10,390
I just think because we all know, I'm

1331
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:13,450
sure everyone watching your show knows deep down

1332
00:54:13,450 --> 00:54:14,730
that we're on the side of right.

1333
00:54:15,570 --> 00:54:17,990
So if all of us know that it's

1334
00:54:17,990 --> 00:54:20,790
right, then it doesn't matter who you are.

1335
00:54:21,110 --> 00:54:22,690
You just have to be convinced.

1336
00:54:22,830 --> 00:54:23,930
You have to be shown the right thing,

1337
00:54:24,030 --> 00:54:25,690
whether it's a documentary or a particular health

1338
00:54:25,690 --> 00:54:32,310
fact or a particular statistic, it could be.

1339
00:54:32,370 --> 00:54:34,310
I've known so many people whose vegan origin

1340
00:54:34,310 --> 00:54:37,390
stories starts in a strange way from a

1341
00:54:37,390 --> 00:54:39,050
book they read or a leaflet they got

1342
00:54:39,050 --> 00:54:40,530
or a friend they spoke to or a

1343
00:54:40,530 --> 00:54:41,150
meal they had.

1344
00:54:41,770 --> 00:54:43,810
So I think there's just so many opportunities

1345
00:54:43,810 --> 00:54:45,730
to create more vegans in this world.

1346
00:54:46,370 --> 00:54:48,530
And then once we hit a threshold of

1347
00:54:48,530 --> 00:54:51,510
people who care, whose knowledge, and one of

1348
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:54,550
the reasons I'm so optimistic as well, information

1349
00:54:54,550 --> 00:54:55,990
has never been more available.

1350
00:54:56,510 --> 00:55:00,390
We can now distribute our investigations or your

1351
00:55:00,390 --> 00:55:02,310
news programme can get picked up any part

1352
00:55:02,310 --> 00:55:02,750
of the planet.

1353
00:55:03,230 --> 00:55:05,670
So because we have that ability to get

1354
00:55:05,670 --> 00:55:08,790
out our vegan message, I just think there's

1355
00:55:08,790 --> 00:55:11,150
many, many opportunities to get to reach people

1356
00:55:11,150 --> 00:55:11,950
with this message.

1357
00:55:12,170 --> 00:55:14,630
And that's why I'm so positive about it.

1358
00:55:15,070 --> 00:55:16,430
I hope that we don't have to go

1359
00:55:16,430 --> 00:55:18,450
through another pandemic in order to reach it.

1360
00:55:18,490 --> 00:55:20,410
And history shows that we may not even

1361
00:55:20,410 --> 00:55:23,050
learn our lessons then, but if you think

1362
00:55:23,050 --> 00:55:24,910
about just the suffering of the animals, that's

1363
00:55:24,910 --> 00:55:25,750
as clear as day.

1364
00:55:26,110 --> 00:55:29,010
And for that reason, there's never been a

1365
00:55:29,010 --> 00:55:30,270
more important time to go vegan.

1366
00:55:30,810 --> 00:55:32,250
Well, we are out of time.

1367
00:55:32,370 --> 00:55:34,450
So excited to have you on.

1368
00:55:34,790 --> 00:55:36,930
Your work is absolutely extraordinary.

1369
00:55:36,930 --> 00:55:39,630
And of course, I always urge people, along

1370
00:55:39,630 --> 00:55:44,430
with supporting Animal Outlook, please support Unchained TV.

1371
00:55:44,570 --> 00:55:46,430
We are a 501c3 nonprofit.

1372
00:55:47,090 --> 00:55:49,910
Download us right on your phone or your

1373
00:55:49,910 --> 00:55:50,710
television set.

1374
00:55:51,050 --> 00:55:52,690
So it's a vegan Netflix.

1375
00:55:52,990 --> 00:55:54,870
Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard.

1376
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:56,170
I love Unchained TV.

1377
00:55:56,370 --> 00:55:58,150
Unchained, Unchained TV.

1378
00:55:58,310 --> 00:55:59,110
Your life will change.

1379
00:55:59,230 --> 00:56:00,290
It's just that easy.

1380
00:56:00,630 --> 00:56:03,110
Unchained TV has all sorts of content for

1381
00:56:03,110 --> 00:56:03,590
everybody.

1382
00:56:03,950 --> 00:56:06,010
Unchained TV changed my life.

1383
00:56:06,010 --> 00:56:09,170
Unchained TV is crushing it.

1384
00:56:09,330 --> 00:56:10,830
I love Unchained TV.

1385
00:56:11,090 --> 00:56:12,850
Unchained TV is my go-to.

1386
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:13,990
Unchained TV.

1387
00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:14,930
Who knew?