UnchainedTV: VICTORY: Starbucks Drop Surcharge for Vegan Milks!

0:00 We have breaking news for you. Fasten your seatbelts. This is huge. Stop everything you're doing. Starbucks dropped their surcharge for the plant-based milks. Finally, do you know how long we've been asking for this? This is a huge victory for the vegan movement, for the animal rights movement, for organisations like PETA and Switch for Good. No one should be paying extra for making better choices for our planet, for themselves, and for the animals. It's a victory. Now, the inside story of how it happened. And it is making headlines around the world.

0:41 There you see it, VegNews, Starbucks drops dairy -free surcharge, embracing all the ways our customers enjoy their Starbucks. This is a huge vegan victory. Starbucks drops surcharge for non-dairy. Starbucks won't charge extra for plant-based milk. Other companies should follow suit. So we've got representatives from two of the leading organisations that made this happen, PETA and Switch for Good. I want to start with one of my favourite people on the planet, Dotsie Bausch, vegan Olympian who has literally devoted her life to this issue. And that's why she started Switch for Good. So, Dotsie, tell us, what is the significance of this surcharge being dropped by Starbucks?

1:29 Yeah, well, when we decided to go after the largest coffee chain in the world, we did it because we felt like if we go big and we are successful, we knew it was going to be a multi-year approach, that it would trickle down to all of the other coffee shops in the world. And we definitely think that it will. The reason behind it is simply to normalise plant food, normalise plant milk. We know that the 95% just wants normal, right? They want average. They don't want things to be weird or niche. And by charging extra money, which is also a certain form of dietary racism, which we brought to light in this campaign and really helped people to understand what that is, how it gets developed and how it's incredibly unfair.

2:22 But it was all about normalising this plant milk. When something's normal and it's just on the menu alongside the cow's milk, because we all know the cow's milk is what should have had the upcharge, then people feel free, open, even excited to order a plant food, a plant milk, because it's just the same and they don't have to pay this niche extra upcharge. So it's about normalisation for us. PETA was one of the other organisations that led the charge. These two groups were working, you know, hand in hand, protests here, protests there. We're going to show you and you can hear some of these protests in a moment. But Amber, what would you say is the significance of this in the vegan movement, in the animal rights movement, the dropping of this surcharge?

3:09 Yeah, thanks for having us on. PETA's been going after Starbucks for years. And, you know, in order to get animals out of these factory farms and out of the dairy industry, we need to normalise and make vegan foods more accessible. So getting one of the largest chains that is such a large seller of dairy products is a huge win and it will have ripple effects. You know, now the smaller coffee chains will have absolutely no excuse. So we are looking very closely toward the future on the ripple effects of this. All right. Well, one of the iconic moments of this campaign was when Succession and Babe star James Cromwell literally glued himself to a Starbucks counter.

4:00 Let's watch it and then we'll talk about it on the other side. A single cow emits more smog, farming pollutants than a car. One cow on a dairy farm also requires 50 gallons of water a day. So we're in the vegan upcharge now because they charge for vegan milk in there. It does damage to the planet. It does damage to people who ingest it, who can't metabolise it. And it's simple greed. Wow. Simple greed. Now, do you think these campaigns alleging that this was being done, this surcharge for simple greed, were what turned the corner?

4:46 Or was it that Starbucks had started to suffer economically because they were charging extra? Because according to Starbucks' own account, the requests for vegan milks, oat milk, soy milk, almond milk, coconut milk, is the second most requested customisation right after an extra shot of espresso, which I could probably use right now myself. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, about 10 weeks before they dropped the upcharge, we had been working with a whistleblower, with an informant who worked inside at Starbucks for some years.

5:33 And we uncovered quite a lot, which we privately sent to Starbucks. And I think maybe was their final lever in the breaking to make this happen. What we uncovered was absolute egregious price gouging. Like we knew they made a lot of money on this, right? Because why else would they do it? But what we uncovered was that they make a 788% markup for almond milk, a 566% markup on soy milk, and 185 % markup on oat milk. We know that they made a billion dollars on these markups. They charge 80 cents.

6:14 And almond milk, for example, that they charge nine. It costs nine cents and they charge 80 cents. It's a 788% markup. So revealing that we uncovered those numbers, and then also revealing something that was almost even more egregious, them going back to 2019 and erasing and changing their climate baselines because they recognised they were not going to make their 2025 target. We have all of that paperwork and sent it to them. So those are two big surprises, I think, for them, that they didn't realise that anyone knew about either one of those.

6:56 And I think that Brian Nickell trying to do the right thing, having to change and really turn this entire company around from it being in the toilet with the shareholders, didn't want this out, either one of these facts. And we invite Starbucks on any time. I think we can all say kudos to the new CEO, Brian Nickell, for making this change. So we applaud and congratulate him. What we're doing is talking about how and why it happened when it did, because the protest by James Cromwell was two years ago. So there have been protests for years demanding this.

7:38 Let's take a look at some of the protests organised by Switch for Good. Put your money where your mouth is and stop the upcharge of the plant-based milk now. What the hell is up, you guys? My name is Jamie Logan, and we are here in Los Angeles outside of Starbucks. We are asking, we are demanding that they drop the surcharge on plant-based milk. And let's find out why. Extra charges aren't fair. Stop the upcharge, stop the green. Keep our prices what we need. So we are here because we have been working for two and a half years trying to get Starbucks to drop their plant milk upcharge.

8:24 It's $0.70, $0.80, $0.80 at the top. Extra to have planet-friendly, animal-friendly, people -friendly, health-friendly plant milk. And as many of you know now, because we've been doing this work for so long, 35% of Americans cannot digest dairy. 80% of people of colour all over the world, it makes them sick, uncomfortable, and in some cases, unable to breathe. Yet that milk is free at Starbucks, and they're charging for planet-friendly plant milk. It's insanity. So all those were excellent arguments, but- I apparently had a lot of coffee before that.

9:06 Wow. I think they cut you off. No more shots. Exactly. No more shots. And you know what? I've had this Starbucks coffee plastic cup for about six years, and so I use it every time I have to do an update on Starbucks. I haven't actually gone into Starbucks, however. That may change now that they've eliminated the upcharge. I would be happy to go there. Tomorrow. Yeah, we're celebrating this. So let me say this. Those were all great reasons. Climate change, suffering of animals, human health with the huge amount of lactose intolerance in the populace.

9:52 In fact, there's even been lawsuits surrounding that issue. But those are not what were cited in news reports as the defining reason why this happened. It was more described as Starbucks is having some problems with sales and wanted to appeal to its customers. So is this still a case of follow the money at the end of the day, DOTC? And then we'll go to Amber. I mean, most definitely. And Amber and PETA know this even more because they've been campaigning for 50 years, right, that there is never a world where the major multinational public corporation says, thank you, activists, for letting us see our flaws.

10:42 Thank you for exposing the price gouging. Thank you for exposing our corporate fraud and changing. Thank you for exposing the climate. I mean, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, we're never going to know exactly. But I think because of all that both of us have done on this, they were done with the pressure. They were done with it. I mean, they just wanted to turn the corner. And I think that they didn't. I know for sure that Brian did not want the latest bits that we'd uncover revealed. And they didn't want the pressure from PETA anymore. They just didn't want it. Right. He wanted to turn a new leaf. He didn't want to deal with that. And he turned it into a kind of a conversation around its customisation season, the holidays.

11:24 And so we're going to make customisation easier by not charging for plant milk. So that's how they spun it. And we were expecting nothing less. Right, Amber? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, PETA has been going after Starbucks on this issue through multiple CEOs. And, in fact, when Brian Nichol came on board, we suspended our campaign because we were so hopeful. With his past history at the other companies he worked at, you know, Chipotle having such great vegan options. You know, we were hopeful and it did pay off. And we're seeing now the massive PR move, positive PR for them, that the previous CEOs who are no longer with Starbucks really missed out on.

12:13 And that really shows that doing the right thing, whether they did it for the right reasons or not, is a good business move. And do you think it will, Amber, inspire other companies to follow suit? Absolutely. We have been, you know, not just Starbucks, there are some other handfuls of chains and also individual coffee stores, right? So the small coffee shops who might still be charging extra maybe felt like they had to because the big guys were. And they needed to do that to remain competitive. So this is just showing that across the board it is, you know, affordable and accessible. And just the right thing to do for any company that, you know, is trying to appeal to customers who care about animals, care about their carbon footprints, and just doing the right thing.

13:01 And, you know, PETA has worked with so many celebrities. James Cromwell, and there is a building named the James Cromwell Empathy Centre that is part of PETA's overall headquarters. In fact, Unchained TV just had a premier party at the PETA Empathy Centre, the James Cromwell PETA Empathy Centre. And, you know, there's no better activist than James Cromwell. He is out there on the front lines lending his fame and celebrity to this and other issues when it comes to animal rights and veganism. Let's take a look at PETA's now iconic commercial that they did to put pressure on Starbucks to drop the extra charge, which Starbucks has now done.

13:46 Starbucks cares. We care about the world turning into a giant burning hellscape. And we care that you care that cow's milk production emits about three times more greenhouse gases than vegan milk. We care, but you care more. That's why we charge you up to 90 cents extra for our vegan milk. Because when you really care, like you do, it's a small price to pay. And it's good that you pay, I mean, care, because we also have other things to care about. Like the $1.6 million cash sign-on bonus for our new CEO. We care about profits.

14:26 Confused? We're not. You just keep caring about saving the world and we'll keep caring about our savings account. Because Starbucks cares about money. Heck, it's right there in our name. There you go. Drink that in. You take care now. What a sophisticated campaign. And the CEO he referred to is no longer there. Correct me if I'm wrong, replaced by Brian Nickell, who came over from Chipotle because they were struggling. I mean, do you think at the end of the day, it's just not smart business? Like everybody's praising Brian Nickell as a very smart business person.

15:10 He did drop the upcharge. Is that the smart business move? Couldn't it be also not just good for the animals, good for human health, good for the planet, but also good for business? Why do those two have to be at loggerheads, Dotsie? Yeah. I mean, I think they'll win a lot of people over by doing it. I also do think it's, you know, interesting timing that it's customisation season and people want to try all sorts of, you know, different foofy drinks over the holidays and they'll make some of the money up during that. I won't be entirely shocked if the overall prices of their beverages start to creep up to make it back, because like I said, it was a billion dollars for them last year.

15:59 So that's a lot of money to let go. So they might get new customers. That's where that exactly. Yeah. I used to go to Starbucks all the time. I just walk around with this thing for four or five years. Well, that's the question. I mean, how many people were boycotting Starbucks because of the plant milk? I mean, that's what we don't they don't know. Yeah. Boycotting, if not boycotting outright, just thinking, you know, one of the issues that I've had when I've gone in there. And by the way, again, we invite Starbucks on any time. As as we've said at the start of this broadcast, we applaud your decision. So this isn't like attack Starbucks day.

16:40 This is applaud Starbucks day. But we're trying to understand it and we're trying to understand why it took so long and why these two organisations, Switch for Good and PETA, had to go to extreme lengths, like getting movie stars to record fake commercials and glueing themselves to a counter in order to make the case. For those who aren't animal activists, please know that all campaigns start out with polite letters. Right, Amber? All campaigns start out with here's the facts behind the scenes before anything public ever, ever happened. You know.

17:20 Yes. Well, can you outline that? Because people sometimes say, oh, why are they protesting? Yeah, I mean, any time you see PETA has an action alert out against something, you know, we've attempted to resolve things. The best campaigns are the ones you never have to launch in the first place. And Starbucks previous CEOs, you know, just weren't were open to it at the time. It took a little bit of cajoling. I've still got a scar on my hand from the time I glued my hand to their headquarters countertop. But, you know, that scar is going to fade and eventually and we'll be moving on to, you know, on and on to the next victories down the road.

18:07 And in fact, tomorrow, PETA is officially calling off our boycott that we've been having with support. Starbucks Vegan Coffee Day is going to be tomorrow. So go in and get those soy lattes and, you know, to keep working and keep that caffeine up. Well, I wanted to ask you what it was like to glue, because I did have questions about this. I'm like, we all know glueing yourself, super glueing yourself. That's painful. And how does it end? I never quite got the answer. Since you actually superglue yourself as well. Can you tell us, please? I went a little overboard and used an entire tube of the superglue at the Starbucks Reserve in their headquarters in Seattle.

18:58 They didn't really know what to do about it. And the firefighters tried many things. A butter knife ended up being the main thing that worked to get me out. We were in there for a couple hours. Wow. It was an interesting experience. And I had one hand glued with the phone with the live stream the entire time. Wow. And you think it was worth it? Absolutely. Yeah. They filed some charges and never pursued them. So, you know, I was willing to go the full way, but they just wanted to get us out of there.

19:38 Yeah. And I really think that's important because so many people, I've been working with PETA for decades now. And as a journalist, always there, always there saying, sure, I'll talk to you. Sure. I'll try to connect you with a celebrity who might care about this, whatever the case may be. And I really hate it when people say PETA. Oh, they throw blood. PETA hasn't thrown fake blood at anything in I don't know how long. I mean, that's got to be decades. But they like to do that to kind of dismiss. What I say is, you know, journalists should be covering this issue seriously and all the other issues that PETA raises seriously.

20:21 But the truth is PETA has something like 19 lawyers. They're filing Freedom of Information Act requests, holding news conferences, putting out news releases. But yet when they get the media attention is when James Cromwell glues himself to a supermarket, to a Starbucks counter or somebody gets naked or almost naked. In other words, these animal rights organisations are put in a situation where they're completely ignored when they're serious. And then when they in desperation become somewhat outlandish after begging for change politely, then they're attacked for being outlandish. Would you like to address that, Amber?

21:01 Yeah, it takes everything. I mean, I've attended board meetings from giant corporations. And, you know, we've had Alicia Silverstone actually, you know, called into a Starbucks board meeting as well in the past. But it sometimes takes steps, stepping things up and taking some bold actions in a safe way. I mean, my hand was maybe in a little danger that day, but it all ended up fine. And, you know, at the end of the day, the planet is in crisis. The animals are in crisis. And, you know, we need to get active and keep doing what we need to do to keep these victories coming in, because the animals really, really need us to step it up.

21:49 And the people. Let's hear a little bit more from the protests that Dotsie Bausch organised outside a Starbucks. I was there and her right hand man also spoke. Dairy and milk means stomach pain. Starbucks coffee is to blame. Plant based milk should not cost more. Starbucks green, we do have more. The intention of this campaign is to get them to finally drop the plant based milk upcharge. What they have already done in the United Kingdom, France, Chile, Germany, Japan and other major World Cup countries. They have resisted here in the US so far. This is their biggest market.

22:30 They make over we've estimated they make over 300 million dollars a year on the upcharge alone. Not just the drinks. The upcharge. Three hundred million dollars a year. So this is part of our ongoing Justice Cup campaign to get them to put their money where their mouth is and actually finally drop the upcharge for people, planet and the animals. That is why we are here today. Thank you guys so much for being here. All right. So again, we applaud Starbucks for finally dropping that surcharge for soy, almond, coconut and what is it? Oat milk. OK. And we have a lot of people saying, yes, I'm going to go back and start going to Starbucks.

23:15 Let me ask you a question. Oh, that's quite a quite a comment there. Let me ask you a question. Do you think this is going to encourage more people who are not vegan, who are not plant based to try the vegan option? Because that's another benefit from this Stasi. It's not just people who are already drinking plant based milks who will say, oh, now I can go in there and and have my soy latte without paying extra. It's also people that maybe don't really try the plant based milks that might be encouraged to try them because they're not being charged more. Of course they will. Yeah. I mean, we know the stats. We know that 80 to 97 percent of people of colour just make some sick dairy milk.

23:58 So absolutely. It's a huge celebration for them to be able to go in there and try these different plant based milks. And maybe some of them are, you know, who have not been going to Starbucks as well and and be able to enjoy their coffee without running the bathroom afterwards. I think it it will really encourage most people. I think curiosity alone, too, will encourage people who aren't lactose intolerant. What does that taste like? I've always wondered about it. People talk about it. I mean, we're up to 44 percent of U.S. households has plant make plant based milk in the refrigerator. We're close to reaching the tipping point of 50 percent household penetration. I mean, some of those households may also have dairy milk, but that is a massive step forward.

24:41 So they're drinking at home, is my point. So they are absolutely going to go to the coffee shop and be excited to be able to order it for free. And what I want to ask you is what can the rest of the plant based movement learn from the success of the dairy sector? I think it's fair to say and correct me if I'm wrong, but my observation is that the milk alternatives, the dairy free milk alternatives, soy milk, rice milk, almond milk, oat milk, the list goes on and on. I've seen hemp milk. I've seen all sorts of sort of even. But it's the most successful aspect of the plant based movement.

25:23 I mean, it's taking over the supermarket shelves. When I check out, I'm always looking around. I'm seeing so many people, even in, you know, not like just fancy grocery stores. But I was just at Smart and Final two days ago. The guy behind me has got the plant based milks. What can we learn from the success of the plant based milk sector about what we need to do with other sectors, particularly meat alternatives? Yeah, well, I mean, we also know that that Gen Z, 49 percent of Gen Z, almost half of them are embarrassed to order dairy in public.

26:04 So the younger generation, they get it. They get it for all the reasons. And they're certainly pushing hard. And I think what we can learn is I mean, that's why we focus on this from day one at Switch for Good, because I have and will always believe that dairy is the way in to a plant based vegan world. People are accepting the dairy alternatives. They like them. They're bringing them into their house. They make them feel great. We've already discussed how many people dairy makes feel terrible. And because of that, people have this almost like religious experience when they drop dairy and feel better in five days, six days, seven days. I mean, it's a really short period of time.

26:45 And then they get excited about feeling that much better and their health improving. And then they start asking questions about what else could they do to make themselves feel better? Unfortunately, we don't have that with a chicken sandwich. Nobody feels better if they drop chicken. You drop all of it. Things start to change. But I think dairy is the way in to dropping all of the meat. And the more of us that recognise that and start to work on what is working and pushing that and finally breaking that lever of dairy, they're almost on their way out. They're not keeping themselves in business. Meat is keeping themselves in business. Our federal government is keeping dairy in business.

27:25 Seventy three percent of their income comes from the feds. So they are teetering. And it's going to take all of us to push them over. And then we can go, you know, sector to sector to sector and win this. Well, I think you're absolutely right in terms of kids aren't just sitting down like out of a leave it to beaver TV show. You know, these are 60s and drinking an entire glass of milk. They don't do it anymore. So there's been a cultural shift and that's the kind of cultural shift we need in other sectors. Amber, do you have any thoughts on what we can learn from the success of the dairy alternative movement in terms of what we can do with other sectors in the plant based food market?

28:10 Well, the other big thing with dairy, aside from Starbucks, you know, which we don't need to worry about anymore, is is is cheese consumption is still, you know, something that needs to be hammered on. And the you know, the vegan cheeses are getting better and better all the time. So that is the kind of secondary dairy related campaign that PETA has been focussing on. Just getting people to try it because the numbers of people trying it, they're more likely to be more comfortable picking it up off the grocery store shelf or the vegan burger that has vegan cheese on it at the restaurants.

28:53 Vegan mac and cheese. It's, you know, it's all there ready to go. And that's that's kind of the next the next hurdle we're looking at. We've been giving away like tens of thousands of samples of vegan cheese, just getting people to try it because just like the soy and oat milk with your cookie or whatever we've been giving away at, you know, activism events and booths. We just need to get them to try it and say, hey, I had some misconceptions about that. If you're just joining us, we're celebrating a victory. Starbucks has ended its vegan milk upcharge in the United States and Canada after a powerful campaign. We have PETA and Switch for Good, the two leading organisations that worked very hard to make this happen.

29:41 And there's just happiness all the way around. Stop everything you're doing. Starbucks dropped their surcharge for the plant based milk. Finally, do you know how long we've been asking for this? This is a huge victory for the vegan movement, for the animal rights movement, for organisations like PETA and Switch for Good. No one should be paying extra for making better choices for our planet, for themselves and for the animals. It's a victory. Now, the inside story of how it happened. And I have to play once again Dotsie Bausch at her protest because she was in fuego outside Starbucks. Put your money where your mouth is and stop the upcharge of the plant based milk now.

30:33 What the hell is up, you guys? My name is Jamie Logan and we're here in Los Angeles outside of Starbucks. We are asking, we are demanding that they drop the surcharge on plant based milk. And let's find out why. Extra charges aren't fair. Stop the stopping doesn't care. Stop the upcharge, stop the greed. Keep our prices what we need. So we are here because we have been working for two and a half years trying to get Starbucks to drop their plant milk upcharge. It's 70, 80 cents, 80 cents at the top. Extra to have planet friendly, animal friendly, people friendly, health friendly plant milk. And as many of you know now because we've been doing this work for so long, 35% of Americans cannot digest dairy.

31:22 80% of people of colour all over the world, it makes them sick, uncomfortable and in some cases unable to breathe. Yet that milk is free at Starbucks and they're charging for planet friendly plant milk. It's insanity. So when you think about it and I'd like to get your response, both of you to this. Amber, shouldn't they be charging more for dairy? Right now we have equal price. Thanks to this breakthrough where Starbucks agreed to drop the surcharge for vegan milks like soy milk, oat milk, rice milk, coconut milk, whatever milks they carry in their various stores.

32:04 I know they mixed it up quite a bit. But if you think about what Doxie said, the impact on the climate, the impact on human health with the high levels of lactose intolerance and obviously the cruelty as well. Wouldn't it be smarter to either eliminate dairy entirely or charge more for the privilege of drinking the breast milk of cows if that's what you really want to do? Yeah, we had suggested that, you know, to Starbucks in the past that, you know, the prices should even out. If you're going to stop upcharging for vegan milk, then balance it out with the non -vegan milks.

32:46 As Doxie mentioned, there are, you know, major subsidies going on and PETA is working on the side on that as well with our food justice campaign, getting those subsidies out of dairy, meat and egg industries and, you know, promoting the healthy vegan foods that the government should be promoting. But absolutely, people are not paying that full cost, whether it's for the animals or the climate, human health, public health costs of all this heavy dairy consumption, that all adds up and it's not being reflected in that sticker price at the counters. You know, sometimes people are saying now, well, there was this huge move toward plant-based products when, for example, in 2019, Beyond Meat's IPO initial public offering was the most successful IPO since the 2008 financial crisis and everybody was just sort of going crazy over it.

33:49 And now there's a bit of retrenchment and I always say nothing goes straight up. Even the most successful stock goes like this. But this is, I think, a marker of now we're back on the way up. I think this change, given that Starbucks is, according to you, and I believe you, and Starbucks you're invited on anytime again, but the largest purveyor of dairy in the United States aside from the U.S. government. And it is essentially acknowledging that vegan milks, soy milk and almond milk and coconut milk, should be on an even playing field.

34:30 I feel that this is a moment of cultural shift. What say you? Yeah, I know it's been disappointing to see what's happened in the last year. But if we look back, we see that around 2019, as you mentioned, Meat & Dairy got together, the PR firm, and they've only had to spend about $2 million a year, which is not so much for them, only solely focussing on the ultra processed milk. And it's been working. And that's now what's in our hands to fight back with. And there's lots of options on how to fight that back, whether to fight directly against that or introduce a different concept about what is in Meat & Dairy.

35:21 But it's working. I mean, we used to have the basketball players, the big NBA stars sitting courtside in their Beyond Meat hats. And now they won't even take sponsorship money from Beyond Meat. They're like, no, no, dude, it's ultra processed. So their campaigns worked. And I think we always had to know that they weren't going to just lay down, right? Of course, they were going to fight. So we have to band together and fight back against that, because that's really what you'll hear most people who are no longer eating vegan say. It's too processed. It's not good for you. Well, and oh, my gosh, I have so many arguments that I would love to hear from all the American people.

36:04 But A, we just profiled Beyond Meat, and they have a new heart healthy version. Yes. Because Ethan Brown said, well, you know, we've come under attack by the incumbent industry is how he put it. So instead of fighting back with just words, we've decided we're going to make our product even healthier. And now it's certified by the American Heart Association. And it's much healthier. Not that it was unhealthy, but he responded that way, which I thought was so evolved of him. But you're absolutely right. There is, according to The Guardian, there's like a war room the size of a major network somewhere in Denver, Colorado, where they spew out all this stuff about how vegan meat alternatives are ultra processed.

36:49 Now, mind you, you can always eat tofu, brown rice, kale, legumes, carrots, all the reason those items were created was because people said, no, I can't eat. Oh, I'm not going to eat whole food plant based. So they try to put you in a no win circumstance. If you say, look, whole food is there. You can eat it. It's super healthy. We've got gazillion studies that show that that's the route to disease prevention and longevity. Oh, no, I have to have my burger. I have to have my wings. I have to have my this, that and the other. OK, we're going to make you plant based versions.

37:29 And then they say, oh, well, that's processed. So that's kind of trying to put you in a situation where you can't win. What I do say is processed meat is officially cancer causing, according to the World Health Organisation. Meat alternatives are not. And they have zero cholesterol. So they're automatically healthier. Amber, how does PETA make that case, given that there is this, I would call it a misinformation campaign out there against meat alternatives? Yeah, there have been so many new buzzwords that they have come up with in the past couple of years.

38:11 We have a whole guide on our Web site about how, especially that buzzword regenerative agriculture. I just heard it on an ad for cheese, cheesy crackers or something like that this week. And I was like, really? But, you know, I think part of the fact that they've had to spend so much effort creating all these new buzzwords, all these humane labels that they have to slap on things, is a testament to how much the public does care about these issues that they have had to go on the offensive and go on the defensive to get people to stop going vegan in droves.

38:57 And, you know, largely they are failing. It's still going to be a lot of work out there to counteract all of these false and misleading labels and marketing claims. Honestly, that's just more opportunities to talk about this issue and show how, you know, devious the meat, dairy and egg industries really can be. They're not just abusing animals, but they are relying on misleading and cover ups. You know, we shouldn't have to have ag laws. We shouldn't have to have undercover investigators who have to go in and show the real conditions behind these things. But we do. And that just, you know, is a testament to how cruel these industries are and the length that they need to go to to stay in business and keep people buying those products.

39:45 And, you know, we are seeing so many people ordering the free vegan starter guides that we have on our website, accessing all the resources and the health resources from groups like Dotsies who are focused on, you know, health and fitness. All those resources are out there at people's fingertips and we're always there and available to help people get active and do what needs to be done to help get these animals out of these factory farms. And I think we're actually doing better than we give ourselves credit for. And if you look, a lot of the more successful brands have been bought up by big companies. So while yes, vegan restaurants might be struggling right now, well, all restaurants are struggling.

40:30 There's been a cultural change since the pandemic. I myself don't go to as many restaurants as I used to. And so it's across the board with restaurants, not just vegan restaurants. But then if you look at the frozen food section in your average large supermarket, my gosh, the amount of plant based alternatives, the vegan wings, the vegan fish, the vegan burgers. I mean, it's all over the place and a lot of it is being adopted. So I think we have to keep it in perspective. A lot of these brands have been purchased by big, big companies.

41:11 And interestingly enough, once they get purchased by the big companies, they don't seem to be targets anymore. It's kind of funny how that happens. Like it's the upstart companies that are not bought by international conglomerates that get a lot of hits. But once they're bought by international conglomerates, they don't seem to get that many hits. And they're filling up the supermarket aisle, at least my perspective. What are your thoughts, Dotsie? Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. It does seem to be that we have had a little bit of a surge in the last year with the products because it felt like there was a downturn. Like all of a sudden we had like three or four choices after 2019 when it had 20.

41:54 But it seems to me that the major problem is how challenging it is to get shelf space. And that's why some of these smaller companies who've been bought by the bigger companies, sadly, many of them also distributing meat and dairy, have been able to get shelf space and stay in the grocery store. So I don't love how it's had to happen. But we're working with a new child-focused non-dairy milk that's made from chickpeas this past weekend at the New York City Marathon. We were in the expo. It is absolutely delicious. I mean, they have done the most beautiful job.

42:34 I mean, it's an ingredient list that you can only dream of or a mother can only dream of for their children. But the shelf space, I mean, they just they're having such a hard time. Right. You can only hang in for so long. You know, you get that seed money and that is blown immediately making this incredible product because it's not cheap to make when it's that healthy. So it's shelf space to me, every food company I talk to and start up. That is their challenge. And I don't know how to change that, by the way. So I mean, right. I bet that's that's why it's so frustrating is because it's the depth of the large food companies, you know, like Nabisco and others.

43:19 They have all the shelf space and they're not moving it. The grocery stores aren't wanting to move it around because they know what works. Wow. Well, yes, you're right. Shelf space is very important. And I'll tell you a funny story. When I was in New York, I would notice this one supermarket that the vegan products were always in the back in a horrible area. And I would get off work late and I would go back there and I'd move them to the front. And I was doing like rearranging the supermarket. And then one day that one night because I would be there like at 11 o 'clock at night where nobody's paying attention.

44:03 One night manager caught me and he's like, what the hell are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm just rearranging a little bit. You're welcome. Yeah, exactly. Well, look, getting back to the reason that we're talking to you today, this this incredible news that has just been such good news. And we can talk about challenges, but let's celebrate our victories. This victory is absolutely extraordinary. Starbucks ending the vegan milk upcharge after a powerful PETA campaign and a campaign by Switch for Good. They are two of the most incredible organisations that are relentless.

44:45 And James Cromwell led PETA's campaign, literally glueing himself to a Starbucks counter. And we'll just hear once again what he said. It's very short, but this got so much publicity that it really was worth it. The half an hour, hour or so really made headlines. A single cow emits more smog, warming pollutants than a car. One cow on a dairy farm also requires 50 gallons of water a day.

45:27 So we're in the vegan upcharge now because they charge for vegan milk in there. It does damage to the planet. It does damage to people who ingest it, who can't metabolise it. And it's simple greed. And again, the good news is that as a result of this campaign, the Dotsy Bausch, Switch for Good campaigns, and the fact that it was hurting their business, they have now stopped charging more for plant-based milks. So, you know, as we kind of try to understand the significance of this, Amber, in the big picture, I always say we never know what these big turning points are in any social justice movement.

46:18 Wouldn't it be nice if we can all think of moments in history where one person did something and it ended up becoming a moment in history, but it may not have been obvious at the time. It became obvious in retrospect. Where does this Starbucks dropping the vegan upcharge in the United States and Canada rank in terms of groundbreaking change for the vegan movement, animal rights? Well, it's one of the probably first big barriers to hopefully in the very near future, where vegan milks and meat and eggs are the default, you know, that are just being served.

47:03 And maybe then you have to ask especially for the cow's milk in your coffee if you really want it. And then eventually the dairy industry is just not going to be able to survive without the subsidies that they are getting and all of the, you know, unfounded money that they're getting from the school lunch programmes and things like that and from Starbucks. Because, again, Starbucks was, you know, is even with the roughly half of their customers who are already choosing the vegan milks despite the upcharge. That's another big thing is people were already largely choosing the vegan milks despite the upcharge.

47:43 So, I mean, it remains to be seen how much more it's going to be now that people aren't facing this, you know, this upcharge that really raised the cost on things. It's just more accessible. And other coffee chains and coffee shops and restaurants and grocery stores, you know, it is going to have that ripple effect. Well, I certainly hope so. And one thing, I don't know if maybe some Starbucks executives might watch this. Who knows? We invite you on anytime. We would love to dialogue with you. But one thing I think that all the baristas should be informed of is what's vegan and what isn't. Because I was actually in a Starbucks recently and I saw that they had some kind of soy something or other or oat something or other, some kind of, it appeared to be, non-dairy.

48:33 And I said, since it was not just a cup of coffee with a milk of whatever kind, it was sort of a fancy thing. I said, is that vegan? And they said, I don't know. So, and it said like oats. So, I think that all these baristas need to be informed of what drinks are vegan for their business. Not just to do me a personal favour, but because there's a lot of people like me going in and saying, is that vegan or does it, sometimes the powders have dairy in them. Because sometimes they'll have like a little powder, you know. And I don't want to take that risk. So, I just said, no, I'm not going to have it. But if I knew 100% it was completely vegan, I would have tried it.

49:20 Now, let me say one other thing, because obviously Starbucks also serves food. Again, I want to say, full disclosure, I haven't been into a Starbucks to really look for anything or buy anything, except for that one incident in a long time. But I was in Switzerland, in Zurich. And I walked into a Starbucks and they had the most incredible vegan waffle. In fact, this one lady and I kind of, we kind of had a tug of war over it for a minute. The guy behind the counter said, oh, you know, these sell like hotcakes. And I thought, why the heck aren't we having this in the United States? I'd like to ask both of you. Why is it that a lot of countries in Europe, they didn't have the surcharge, but they had it here in the United States?

50:08 And from my own personal observation, Starbucks in other countries like Switzerland are offering vegan options that are not available in the United States. Dotsie? Well, here's something that you really don't want to know. And the listeners don't really want to know. But one thing that we uncovered that was unrelated to the non-dairy milk upcharge with the whistleblowers, most of their sugary syrups at Starbucks have bone char. So if you're getting a vanilla latte like I used to, it has bone char in it. So there's not a lot of speciality drinks at Starbucks that are vegan.

50:51 So that's just disgusting. I have to say legally, I can't independently confirm that. That's the first I've heard of it. So again, I would invite Starbucks on any time to respond to anything said by me, Dotsie or Amber or anybody. We would love to dialogue with you and set the record straight on all of this. But thank you for doing your investigations, Dotsie. So where do we go from here? We've only got two minutes. Final thoughts. Where do we go from here? Can I just take a day off? No. You sure?

51:32 Oh, my God. We keep hammering. We don't stop. I mean, a coffee shop is a coffee shop, even though it's a multinational coffee shop, multi-international coffee shop. But we keep fighting with all the things that we're already fighting for. And after yesterday, I'm feeling a little bit down about our federal legislation. But that's not going to stop us, right? We fight. You fight. Amber fights. And we keep going. We can't not fight. When I wake up on mornings like this morning and feel like I don't know where we're going or what just happened, I always try and remind myself if I wasn't doing this, I wouldn't be able to live with myself.

52:12 The three of us are incapable of not fighting. And Tom says put Dotsie on the team immediately. I said, Dotsie can put me on the team. We're on the same team. It's her team. I'm on the team. All right. We're all on the same team. Amber, what are your thoughts? What's next? Where do we go with this victory? PETA's motto, one of many, is never be silent. Every animal is someone. And we are just going to keep plugging away at that. Whether it's Starbucks or any other company that's exploiting animals, we don't stop. We just don't stop. We're going to keep going. And we need to get everybody on board. So come with us.

52:54 I got the super glue. Yeah. And once again, I want to compliment both these organisations for being so relentless. I mean, if you look at some of these protests, this is not easy to pull off. These are difficult to pull off. They involve tremendous coordination. And the people here are almost exclusively volunteers. There I am, a volunteer, shouting. And there's one of the leaders of Switch for Good, along with Dotsie Bausch. People think, oh, are we doing all this because it's fun?

53:34 No. There's plenty of other things that I would have rather done in a perfect world other than go and drive to a Starbucks and stand there and chant for an hour and a half. But we do it because the animals cannot speak for themselves. The planet cannot speak for itself. And humans need to know that there's an alternative to dairy that is zero cholesterol, that's better for them, better for the animals, and better for the planet. So I just want to say thank you both. I know you are very, very busy, busy people. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming here today and just celebrating this victory.

54:21 This is a major, major victory. Again, according to Dotsie, Starbucks is the leading purveyor of dairy in the United States aside from the U.S. government and government institutions. So it's a major breakthrough. I will say once again, thank you, Starbucks. We're going to sing your praises today for doing the right thing. And we invite you on anytime. Meanwhile, I urge everybody to download Unchained TV. We are the world's only vegan streaming television network. And we are mostly volunteer run. We are a 501C3 nonprofit.

55:03 And check us out. So it's a vegan network. Okay, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. I love Unchained TV. Unchained, Unchained TV. Your life will change. It's just that easy. Unchained TV has all sorts of content for everybody. Unchained TV changed my life. Unchained TV is crushing it. I love Unchained TV. Unchained TV is my go-to. Unchained TV, who knew? Unchained, baby, yay! So you can download Unchained TV on your phone. You can download it on any TV with Amazon Fire Stick, Roku device, or Apple TV device.

55:45 It's also on all Samsung TVs and about to go on all LG TVs. And I tell you, there's about 2,000 videos, including this one, that are a lot of fun to watch and highly educational. All free. We are a 501C3 nonprofit. Thank you very much, ladies. Rock on! Bye-bye, VAMPers!