UnchainedTV: Wayne Hsiung just avoided 16-years in prison. He's disappointed!

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I am so honoured to be having a

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conversation today with I would say the animal

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rights man of the hour, Wayne Shung, who

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has really risked more time in prison than

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anyone I've ever met to speak up for

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voiceless animals.

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And we have a breaking news to tell

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you about amazing, amazing developments.

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This is an open rescue in Wisconsin that

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occurred in 2017.

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There you see Wayne Shung going into this

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beagle laboratory breeding facility.

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Well, all charges have just been dropped.

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All charges have just been dropped.

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And this video, courtesy Direct Action Everywhere, shows

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some of, there's one they rescued.

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They rescued three beagles in all.

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Look at that distress spinning.

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And Wayne could have done 16 years in

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prison along with his two co-defendants.

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But the breaking news is that that's not

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going to happen because the state of Wisconsin

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just decided to drop all the charges.

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Wayne, thank you so much for being here

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with us.

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What do you make of the fact that

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you were set to go on trial the

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11th hour after something that happened way back

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in 2017 they dropped the charges?

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This might be surprising for a lot of

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your viewers to hear, but my first reaction

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when I heard an attorney downstairs at our

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Airbnb screaming that the charges had been dismissed

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was disappointment and frustration.

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And the reason is, while this case was

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going to be incredibly risky for me, and

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I cried when I left San Francisco because

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I had to leave my family behind, it

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was also an incredibly important opportunity for us

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to litigate important questions of not just law

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but ethics, including whether companies are entitled to

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treat dogs like mere things or whether they're

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living beings of rights.

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We still have a lot of solutions for

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trying to address that problem, but one of

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those solutions was taken off the table because

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if we're not being charged, we can't offer

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the very important legal defences we were planning

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to offer in court.

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I want to play just one minute of

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what it's like inside that facility.

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Now, hang in there, because these beagles are

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there 24-7, 365, until they're transported out

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of a lab.

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See if you can handle it for one

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minute.

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Unbelievable.

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What did it feel like in there when

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you were doing your open rescue, Wayne?

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It's a really interesting phenomenon that when you

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go into a place where there are a

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lot of animals who are afraid, you start

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feeling that fear yourself.

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And to have 3,000 dogs barking, howling,

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clawing at the cage doors, spinning psychotically because

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of the anguish of their life in a

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cage, it sends tremors down your spine.

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I've only been in one other place in

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my life that I felt as disturbed as

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the way I felt when I walked into

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that facility, and that was when I was

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outside of a dog meat slaughterhouse in China

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watching dogs being beaten to death.

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And the footage you just showed is just

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the tip of the iceberg.

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It's honestly not the worst stuff that we

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shot because every single one of these dogs

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was not just trapped in a cage, but

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many of them were suffering from serious infections

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and foot injuries from staying on wire their

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entire lives.

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Many of them were on the way to

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being subjected to God-awful experiments, force-fed

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toxic substances, mutilated in surgical procedures, all sorts

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of vile things that hardly can be imagined

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by most human beings.

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And all of it was being hidden from

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the public, and this trial was going to

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be an opportunity to litigate not just the

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question of whether we committed a crime by

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taking that blind beagle puppy out of a

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cage, but whether these animals were entitled to

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legal protections and rescue.

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And whether ordinary citizens, when the government is

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not acting, just have the right to go

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right in there and help them ourselves.

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We've got tonnes of callers lining up.

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Tiffany in Los Angeles, your question or thought

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for Wayne Chung.

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Wayne, thank you so much for everything that

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you've done, and you've risked everything.

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I wanted to, and I'm going to come

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out, I was coming out for the trial,

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but I'll be out for the rally.

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And I wanted to ask you, what is

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your opinion why the charges were dropped?

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So I'm in the process of writing a

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blog about this, which will go up shortly.

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But briefly, what happened in the weeks before

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trial was two things.

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One is we sent what's called a subpoena

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deuces tecum to Ridgeland Farms, indicating that because

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we're entitled to legal defence, and because they're

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alleging we stole $2,700 in property from

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the company, we sent a subpoena to the

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company, asking them for certain records regarding the

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actual treatment of the animals at their facility.

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And lo and behold, a week and a

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half after we sent that request, which was

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legally binding, they have to give us these

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documents because we're entitled to defend ourselves, the

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prosecution suddenly loses interest in the case.

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But the second really important thing that happened

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that could explain why they dismissed the charges

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is a week and a half before they

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filed the motion to dismiss, we filed a

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motion arguing that we were entitled to rescue

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these animals under certain good Samaritan provisions of

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Wisconsin law.

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It's kind of the dog in a hot

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car situation where if a dog is being

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mistreated, or even just suffering, you can just

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break a window in Wisconsin, take that dog

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out.

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And there's no reason if we can break

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a window to save a dog from a

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hot car, we can't also break open a

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cage door and save a blind beagle puppy

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who's psychotically spinning in a cage.

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And the legal principle behind this, which is

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called legal necessity, has implications far beyond one

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case because the idea behind necessity is that

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when you take action to help a suffering

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animal, you are not just protecting a thing,

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you're protecting a legal person who has rights.

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And I think both the prosecution and the

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broader industry were terrified about the prospect that

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the judge was about to rule in our

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favour behind the notion that animals are not

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mere things, as the government argued, but are

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legal persons who deserve rights.

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Because the implications of a ruling like that

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dogs far beyond Ridgeland Farms to the entire

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infrastructure of animal abuse across the entire country.

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We have yet another caller.

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Boy, they're lining up.

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Jamie in Los Angeles, your question or thought

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for Wayne Chung, co-founder of DxE, co

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-founder of The Simple Heart.

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Hi, Wayne.

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It's Jamie Logan.

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Thank you so much for everything that you're

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doing.

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I just wanted to know how the average

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person can take steps to get involved in

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animal rescue and really step it up to

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change the game for animals.

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In many ways, it's not that complicated.

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I was told by my mother, my grandmother,

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since the time I was a kid, that

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when you see someone who's suffering, you try

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to help.

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And that's the basic principle behind Open Rescue,

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that we see someone who needs our help

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and we help them.

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And there are obviously so many different legal,

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political, narrative dimensions to that tactic.

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But the basic principle that we're all operating

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under and that you can operate under if

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you want to be part of this movement

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is when you identify an animal needs help,

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go out and help them.

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Now, obviously, I don't want to encourage people

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to take on especially risky rescues without some

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sort of legal support, which is why I'm

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excited that we've got amazing attorneys, including Murray,

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who's on this call.

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The University of Denver has an activist defence

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project led by Justin Marceau, one of the

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most distinguished constitutional law scholars in our nation,

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who defended us in Ridgeland and will be

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defending activists in future cases.

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So by all means, get some legal support

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and make sure you understand what the risks

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are before you take action.

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But my view is all of us have

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the power to take animals out of these

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horrific situations.

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And this is our dream.

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I mean, when we watch this awful slaughterhouse

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footage, this awful footage from laboratories and breeding

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facilities, the thing that we all want more

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than anything else, and then I think most

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Americans want more than anything else, is to

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take those animals out and give them the

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love and care they deserve.

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And we have to recognise the power we

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have in our hands.

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Every single person listening to this interview has

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the power in some way, even if not

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directly, but in some way, whether it's through

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fundraising, through communication support, legal work, or walking

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in yourself to help one of these animals.

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And we have to recognise that power.

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And if we do, we won't just save

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three dogs from one facility in Wisconsin.

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We can save all the animals from cages

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and abusive facilities across the nation and world.

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All right.

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Well said.

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Paige in Los Angeles, your question or thought?

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Hi, Wayne.

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I'm curious, what is your biggest takeaway having

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spent time in jail and having come out

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and now with the drop of the charges?

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What's your largest takeaway?

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Thank you very much.

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Yeah, so I did spend 38 days in

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jail recently after being convicted of conspiracy to

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trespass in relating to a large demonstration, peaceful

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demonstration at a factory farm in Sonoma County.

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It was a supplier to major grocery stores

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across the nation.

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And by far, I think the most important

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takeaway for me was that the public and

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the media are more willing to listen to

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us when we put some skin in the

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game ourselves.

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The number of media outlets, I don't even

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want to talk about all the different major

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broadcast and print outlets that have reached out

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to us in the months since then.

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But the number of media outlets that haven't

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just reached out to us but are seriously

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interested in diving deeper into why we did

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what we did, why I was willing to

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serve 38 days in jail, and I might

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have to serve more days in jail, maybe

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even years in jail, just far exceeded everything

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we had seen beforehand.

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And the basic dynamic is one we've seen

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in many social justice struggles.

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We all know the name Susan B.

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Anthony, Rosa Parks, these brave people who have

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made enormous change in history, far beyond what

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I could ever hope to achieve in my

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life, certainly not on my own.

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And a huge part of the reason those

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stories were important was because those people were

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willing to make sacrifices.

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Susan B.

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Anthony, when everyone told her it was illegal

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to vote, she voted anyways, she got charged

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for it and convicted.

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Rosa Parks sat on that bus seat, even

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though everyone told her it was a crime,

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and they tried to throw her in jail

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for it.

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And for us to be treated seriously, not

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00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:20,540
just by our friends and family and the

271
00:11:20,540 --> 00:11:22,300
people in our own communities, but by the

272
00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:24,460
media and maybe most importantly by the political

273
00:11:24,460 --> 00:11:26,920
and legal system at large, we have to

274
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,080
be willing to risk something ourselves.

275
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:29,240
And that doesn't mean everyone has to risk

276
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,960
jail time, but everyone can sacrifice in some

277
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,940
ways, and without any sacrifice, there's not going

278
00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:35,580
to be any progress.

279
00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:37,140
Wow.

280
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:38,880
A call to action.

281
00:11:39,060 --> 00:11:41,280
Nilo Farr in Dallas, Texas, your question or

282
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:42,260
thought for Wayne Chung.

283
00:11:45,170 --> 00:11:48,890
I subscribe to your fantastic, excellent blog, Simple

284
00:11:48,890 --> 00:11:49,350
Heart.

285
00:11:49,850 --> 00:11:53,310
Ergo, a major congratulations on the recent Harvard

286
00:11:53,310 --> 00:11:57,030
Law Review publication regarding open rescue.

287
00:11:58,030 --> 00:12:01,890
Hand in hand, the powerful government and industry

288
00:12:01,890 --> 00:12:04,950
have been able to carry out normalised systematic

289
00:12:04,950 --> 00:12:11,350
violence on a massive scale, especially following World

290
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:11,990
War II.

291
00:12:12,970 --> 00:12:17,750
Today, prosecutors and judges compare tortured animals to

292
00:12:17,750 --> 00:12:21,530
dented cans, else they call dogs things, for

293
00:12:21,530 --> 00:12:25,170
example, in this torture facility for beagles.

294
00:12:26,130 --> 00:12:30,450
How did you come up with the revolutionary

295
00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:33,810
concept of open rescue?

296
00:12:34,990 --> 00:12:37,610
And you're looking at an open rescue right

297
00:12:37,610 --> 00:12:37,870
there.

298
00:12:38,070 --> 00:12:40,630
This is your two compadres.

299
00:12:41,650 --> 00:12:42,290
Sorry.

300
00:12:43,010 --> 00:12:43,130
Yeah.

301
00:12:43,210 --> 00:12:47,870
Alicia Santoro and the famed actress of Baywatch.

302
00:12:48,730 --> 00:12:49,930
There you go.

303
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:53,630
Taking those two chickens and you were involved

304
00:12:53,630 --> 00:12:55,530
in that defence and they were acquitted.

305
00:12:56,050 --> 00:12:56,890
So, yeah.

306
00:12:56,950 --> 00:12:58,390
How did you come up with this idea?

307
00:12:58,530 --> 00:12:59,870
What a brilliant idea.

308
00:13:00,610 --> 00:13:02,750
Well, let me just give credit where it's

309
00:13:02,750 --> 00:13:04,150
deserved, because it wasn't me who came up

310
00:13:04,150 --> 00:13:04,850
with this brilliant idea.

311
00:13:04,930 --> 00:13:05,190
I agree.

312
00:13:05,290 --> 00:13:05,670
It's brilliant.

313
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:11,430
It's an otherwise ordinary woman by the name

314
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:13,370
of Patty Mark in Australia, who was a

315
00:13:13,370 --> 00:13:15,890
mother of children, had never been in trouble

316
00:13:15,890 --> 00:13:17,110
with the law before in her life.

317
00:13:17,510 --> 00:13:19,630
And she heard about animals being tortured in

318
00:13:19,630 --> 00:13:21,530
a local factory farm in Australia and decided,

319
00:13:22,210 --> 00:13:23,170
look, if the government's not going to do

320
00:13:23,170 --> 00:13:24,710
anything, we got animals literally collapsing.

321
00:13:27,150 --> 00:13:28,830
I mean, if I saw a bird like

322
00:13:28,830 --> 00:13:30,050
this in a cage on the street, I'd

323
00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:30,270
help.

324
00:13:30,670 --> 00:13:32,430
And I'm not going to change things just

325
00:13:32,430 --> 00:13:34,130
because there's a powerful corporation that has a

326
00:13:34,130 --> 00:13:36,650
lot of money to make off of this

327
00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:37,630
bird's torture.

328
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:39,370
And so she walked right in in the

329
00:13:39,370 --> 00:13:40,590
middle of the night and started taking animals

330
00:13:40,590 --> 00:13:40,870
out.

331
00:13:41,210 --> 00:13:42,770
And that started the movement for open rescue.

332
00:13:42,930 --> 00:13:45,030
But there's actually someone even more important than

333
00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:46,950
Patty who needs to be credited with this

334
00:13:46,950 --> 00:13:49,250
strategy, which is the animals themselves.

335
00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:51,070
And I think we don't talk enough about

336
00:13:51,070 --> 00:13:54,750
the agency the animals themselves demonstrate, but every

337
00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:56,910
time I've been in a factory farm or

338
00:13:56,910 --> 00:14:00,790
a laboratory or vivisection facility, including the one

339
00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:03,410
we were charged for in Wisconsin, you can

340
00:14:03,410 --> 00:14:05,890
see that the animals themselves went out.

341
00:14:06,810 --> 00:14:08,730
You know, Julie, the little blind beagle puppy

342
00:14:08,730 --> 00:14:10,570
we were rescuing, she was spinning in the

343
00:14:10,570 --> 00:14:11,750
cage, not just for one minute.

344
00:14:11,810 --> 00:14:13,310
You saw about one minute of her spinning

345
00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:16,370
for two hours, two hours.

346
00:14:16,370 --> 00:14:17,690
We saw her spinning constantly.

347
00:14:18,630 --> 00:14:21,170
And for sure, that was a demonstration of

348
00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:23,190
the psychological anguish and torture she had been

349
00:14:23,190 --> 00:14:26,810
through, but also showed how desperately she wanted

350
00:14:26,810 --> 00:14:28,370
and needed to get out of that cage

351
00:14:28,370 --> 00:14:29,610
because she was scared.

352
00:14:30,050 --> 00:14:31,950
She was alone and she had lived her

353
00:14:31,950 --> 00:14:34,910
entire life in a tiny cage.

354
00:14:35,070 --> 00:14:37,070
She'd never stepped outside and she wanted out.

355
00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:39,070
And one of the reasons we took her

356
00:14:39,070 --> 00:14:41,350
out was because she told us and she

357
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:43,570
showed with her own behaviour, I need to

358
00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:44,210
get out of here.

359
00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:46,530
And I've told this story before, we almost

360
00:14:46,530 --> 00:14:48,890
left her behind because alarms went off throughout

361
00:14:48,890 --> 00:14:49,330
the facility.

362
00:14:49,470 --> 00:14:52,070
I was terrified and my team members were

363
00:14:52,070 --> 00:14:54,450
terrified and we started running out and we

364
00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:55,490
were going to depart the facility.

365
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:57,770
But we stopped for a moment and asked

366
00:14:57,770 --> 00:14:59,970
ourselves, what did we see and what was

367
00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:02,290
Julie trying to tell us when she was

368
00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:05,130
spinning and clawing and howling in a desperate

369
00:15:05,130 --> 00:15:06,070
attempt to get out of the cage and

370
00:15:06,070 --> 00:15:07,130
what she told us and what she was

371
00:15:07,130 --> 00:15:09,750
actually doing herself was, I need to get

372
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:09,950
out.

373
00:15:09,950 --> 00:15:12,850
And so in many ways, I think what

374
00:15:12,850 --> 00:15:16,330
we're doing is just the fulfilment of what

375
00:15:16,330 --> 00:15:18,010
these animals are asking us to do and

376
00:15:18,010 --> 00:15:18,990
what they are doing themselves.

377
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:21,170
And I've seen so many animals break themselves

378
00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:23,850
out of cages and factory farms and slaughterhouses.

379
00:15:24,670 --> 00:15:26,930
We are just trying to assist these animals

380
00:15:26,930 --> 00:15:30,110
in achieving what they already were entitled to

381
00:15:30,110 --> 00:15:31,710
and what they're desperately struggling for.

382
00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:34,510
So Open Rescue is not just about our

383
00:15:34,510 --> 00:15:34,890
agency.

384
00:15:35,190 --> 00:15:35,970
It's about theirs.

385
00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:37,110
Wow.

386
00:15:37,330 --> 00:15:38,930
So many callers lining up.

387
00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:41,430
Emick in Los Angeles, your questioner thought we're

388
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:43,230
going to move through with quick questions so

389
00:15:43,230 --> 00:15:44,670
we can get to everybody.

390
00:15:44,830 --> 00:15:45,090
Emick.

391
00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:48,330
Hello.

392
00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:49,590
Hey, hi, Wayne.

393
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:50,910
I miss you so much.

394
00:15:51,050 --> 00:15:53,650
Thank you so much for just reminding us

395
00:15:53,650 --> 00:15:58,130
that we are animals and not only dogs,

396
00:15:58,250 --> 00:16:00,630
but every animal is our best friend.

397
00:16:00,630 --> 00:16:03,530
Like when I first met a pig at

398
00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:05,230
a vigil, I thought they were going to

399
00:16:05,230 --> 00:16:06,850
bite me, but they gave me a kiss

400
00:16:06,850 --> 00:16:08,930
in the hand before they were murdered.

401
00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:10,570
What can we do?

402
00:16:10,630 --> 00:16:13,750
How can we help better for these people

403
00:16:13,750 --> 00:16:15,130
who live on this planet?

404
00:16:15,630 --> 00:16:17,090
They build other animals.

405
00:16:17,270 --> 00:16:18,410
How can we help them better?

406
00:16:18,530 --> 00:16:20,550
And I really appreciate everything you do.

407
00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:23,050
You're a total hero for me and a

408
00:16:23,050 --> 00:16:24,290
really amazing person.

409
00:16:24,490 --> 00:16:25,050
Thank you.

410
00:16:25,050 --> 00:16:25,770
Thank you, Emick.

411
00:16:27,190 --> 00:16:29,850
That was sort of a question and a

412
00:16:29,850 --> 00:16:30,910
statement as well.

413
00:16:31,730 --> 00:16:34,290
And Emick is a very, very brave activist

414
00:16:34,290 --> 00:16:37,170
in her own right who was injured getting

415
00:16:37,170 --> 00:16:41,690
tackled during a major football game to speak

416
00:16:41,690 --> 00:16:45,350
for those who were doing Open Rescue, such

417
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:45,990
as yourself.

418
00:16:46,630 --> 00:16:48,530
I want to go straight out to Michael

419
00:16:48,530 --> 00:16:49,310
in Los Angeles.

420
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:50,950
Your questioner thought, Michael.

421
00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:52,970
Yeah.

422
00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:54,270
Thank you, Gene.

423
00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:55,050
Hi, Wayne.

424
00:16:55,350 --> 00:16:58,290
I know you've seen so much horrible suffering

425
00:16:58,290 --> 00:16:59,010
in person.

426
00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:01,130
And I can tell you just when I

427
00:17:01,130 --> 00:17:03,589
watch a video, it's so traumatising for me.

428
00:17:04,109 --> 00:17:05,770
So my question is, how are you able

429
00:17:05,770 --> 00:17:08,750
to deal with all that you've witnessed up

430
00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:13,770
close and somehow compartmentalise that you don't go

431
00:17:13,770 --> 00:17:14,770
into like a deep depression?

432
00:17:14,869 --> 00:17:16,730
Because that's something I struggle with on a

433
00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:17,270
daily basis.

434
00:17:17,390 --> 00:17:17,730
Thank you.

435
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:21,740
Yeah, I mean, honestly, sometimes I don't know

436
00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:23,099
that I am handling it very well.

437
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,320
So I first saw animals being slaughtered when

438
00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:29,900
I was about eight years old in China.

439
00:17:30,460 --> 00:17:32,700
I had to watch as a dog who

440
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:34,860
looked exactly like my dog back at home

441
00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:37,320
in the United States was in a cage

442
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,600
and dragged off to be beaten to death.

443
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,940
And I've had night terrors, nightmares ever since.

444
00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:45,020
And there's actually some debate in my family

445
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,460
as to whether we actually saw that dog

446
00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:47,380
be killed.

447
00:17:47,380 --> 00:17:49,600
You know, I'm familiar enough with the research

448
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,100
and memory that sometimes you remember things that

449
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:52,780
didn't actually happen.

450
00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:54,400
But my parents swear they would never have

451
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,240
allowed me to see that.

452
00:17:55,340 --> 00:17:57,080
But we all agree we saw a dog

453
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,940
in a cage at a restaurant who was

454
00:17:58,940 --> 00:17:59,740
going to be slaughtered for me.

455
00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:01,940
And we all agree that I had nightmares

456
00:18:01,940 --> 00:18:04,280
for years because I woke up screaming and

457
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,060
crying, I think, every day through the rest

458
00:18:06,060 --> 00:18:07,340
of that trip because I just kept thinking

459
00:18:07,340 --> 00:18:09,000
about this poor dog being dragged off to

460
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:09,320
be killed.

461
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,940
But the thing that helps me every day

462
00:18:12,940 --> 00:18:15,740
more than anything else is just knowing that

463
00:18:15,740 --> 00:18:17,240
we actually can save them.

464
00:18:17,820 --> 00:18:20,060
And I'm lucky enough that I have living

465
00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:21,320
proof of that in my own home.

466
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,720
I carried a dog out of a dog

467
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,320
meat market, a dog meat farm in China

468
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:27,880
in 2017.

469
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,660
And I, every morning, get to wake up

470
00:18:32,660 --> 00:18:34,400
and see this little guy, Oliver, actually it

471
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:35,900
was 2016, I'm sorry, I'm getting my years

472
00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:36,140
wrong.

473
00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:38,100
And I get to wake up every morning

474
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:39,480
and see this little guy and remember that

475
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:40,240
miracles could happen.

476
00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:43,200
There are millions of dogs killed in China

477
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:43,840
every year for meat.

478
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:45,920
Even at that one festival, which is called

479
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,320
the Yiling Dog Meat Festival, the estimates are

480
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,440
between 20,000 and 30,000 dogs are

481
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,020
slaughtered in a single week.

482
00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:54,740
And almost none of those dogs get out.

483
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,620
Every single one of them has lived their

484
00:18:56,620 --> 00:18:57,760
entire life in fear.

485
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,540
And the only experiences they'll have from the

486
00:19:02,540 --> 00:19:04,080
time we see them until the time they

487
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,300
die are terror and physical pain.

488
00:19:06,940 --> 00:19:09,000
And this dog has lived a beautiful and

489
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,580
happy life because we're able to save him.

490
00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:13,120
And that's not just me because the only

491
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:14,300
reason we're able to get him out literally

492
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:16,080
was because we had so many people like

493
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,300
you, Michael, behind us.

494
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,180
Because I got arrested by the Chinese police.

495
00:19:20,340 --> 00:19:22,680
They accused me of espionage initially and held

496
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,600
me in solitary confinement, interrogated me for, I

497
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:25,680
think, like 20 straight hours.

498
00:19:26,260 --> 00:19:28,140
Three sets of interrogators came in and interrogated

499
00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:29,260
me about what I was doing there.

500
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:31,400
But part of the reason they released me

501
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,720
and did not charge me with a crime

502
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,400
was because there was mass public support for

503
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:35,720
us.

504
00:19:35,740 --> 00:19:37,520
And the U.S. government, in that case,

505
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:38,540
was behind us.

506
00:19:39,180 --> 00:19:41,080
So I think by far the most important

507
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:42,680
thing, and this actually kind of answers Emek's

508
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,200
question before, too, is understanding that we should

509
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,680
not only have hope, but confidence that if

510
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,480
we take action to help animals, they can

511
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:53,000
be saved.

512
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:56,780
And if you understand there's some purpose behind

513
00:19:56,780 --> 00:19:58,480
what you're witnessing, it's not just that we're

514
00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:59,900
seeing these awful things at a vigil or

515
00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:01,780
protest or even sharing something on social media.

516
00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:04,420
But we're sharing these things and witnessing these

517
00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:06,120
things for a purpose, to save them.

518
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,700
Then suddenly all that hardship and pain and

519
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:10,720
even the nightmares I have, I have nightmares

520
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:11,860
when I go to sleep and I wake

521
00:20:11,860 --> 00:20:13,160
up and I see Oliver and I get

522
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:13,640
back to work.

523
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,680
Because I know this little guy, my best

524
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,520
friend in the world, he's living proof that

525
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,000
these changes that we know the animals need

526
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,640
can happen and have happened.

527
00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:29,240
Let's meet Oliver and you before you found

528
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,840
out that all the charges were dropped.

529
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,940
Yeah, so the stakes are feeling very, very

530
00:20:32,940 --> 00:20:33,720
high right now.

531
00:20:33,860 --> 00:20:36,420
Because this guy's been with me for the

532
00:20:36,420 --> 00:20:38,660
last eight years and we've done so much

533
00:20:38,660 --> 00:20:39,020
together.

534
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,960
And today's the day I say goodbye to

535
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,040
him for the rest of my life.

536
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,500
I'm facing 16 years in prison, and even

537
00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:49,560
if it's a medium term, he's eight years

538
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:49,820
old.

539
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,800
So another eight years, 16 years, he's not

540
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:53,700
going to make it that long.

541
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:54,800
And I don't think that's going to happen,

542
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:55,500
I think we're going to win.

543
00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:56,980
But I still have to get ready for

544
00:20:56,980 --> 00:20:59,640
this to be possibly the final time I

545
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:01,780
get to see my little guy.

546
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,280
Having him in my life, just so much

547
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:04,580
to me.

548
00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:06,400
You can stop and ask yourself for a

549
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,540
moment, if there was someone you loved who

550
00:21:08,540 --> 00:21:10,100
was in danger, what would you do?

551
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,460
And this guy literally was in danger, he

552
00:21:13,460 --> 00:21:14,360
was two weeks from dying.

553
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,200
But the thing we have to remember is

554
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,100
that there is some nameless animal who's trapped

555
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:22,340
in a cage who is just like Oliver.

556
00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:23,840
Who's just like the one you love.

557
00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:25,420
And we have to remember, it's not just

558
00:21:25,420 --> 00:21:27,900
Oliver or Julie, it's the thousands of other

559
00:21:27,900 --> 00:21:28,260
dogs.

560
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:30,160
It's the billions of other animals trapped in

561
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,260
cages who need our help.

562
00:21:31,900 --> 00:21:33,460
And we've got to act for them as

563
00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:35,000
we act for the ones we love.

564
00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:37,960
So that's what I have to do too.

565
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:39,900
We are moments away from stepping out of

566
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:40,080
here.

567
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,720
And again, this is going to be my

568
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:43,620
last time getting a pen on the head.

569
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:44,700
And he's feeling it too.

570
00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:45,740
I've got to go.

571
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:47,660
Alright, bye little guy.

572
00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:49,320
I love you so much.

573
00:21:50,380 --> 00:21:50,700
Okay?

574
00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:55,670
Wow, that brings tears to my eyes.

575
00:21:56,050 --> 00:21:59,610
And you are not going to spend 16

576
00:21:59,610 --> 00:22:01,910
years in prison for those charges because all

577
00:22:01,910 --> 00:22:03,510
those felony charges were dropped.

578
00:22:03,630 --> 00:22:05,290
That is the breaking news we're covering.

579
00:22:06,050 --> 00:22:08,290
Honestly, we've got to go to more callers

580
00:22:08,290 --> 00:22:10,170
because they're just pouring in.

581
00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:12,910
Renee in Welder, Texas, your question or thought

582
00:22:12,910 --> 00:22:14,230
for Wayne Chung.

583
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:17,250
Hi, Wayne.

584
00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:19,690
Oh my God, my sweet friend and hero.

585
00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:24,830
You demonstrate so much courage and unwavering dedication

586
00:22:24,830 --> 00:22:26,130
and strategic thinking.

587
00:22:26,350 --> 00:22:28,570
And I just can't tell you how proud

588
00:22:28,570 --> 00:22:29,150
I am of you.

589
00:22:29,310 --> 00:22:32,290
But I just want to know from your

590
00:22:32,290 --> 00:22:36,770
opinion, what kind of character does it take

591
00:22:36,770 --> 00:22:39,950
for activists to deliberately get arrested in order

592
00:22:39,950 --> 00:22:44,130
to draw the kind of attention that's necessary

593
00:22:44,130 --> 00:22:47,230
to the atrocities of animal cruelty?

594
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:52,250
Yeah, it's funny because I know a lot

595
00:22:52,250 --> 00:22:54,050
of people say nice things about me.

596
00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:55,410
Jane said a lot of nice things about

597
00:22:55,410 --> 00:22:55,630
me.

598
00:22:55,810 --> 00:22:56,230
You're a hero.

599
00:22:56,350 --> 00:22:56,810
You're brave.

600
00:22:57,590 --> 00:23:01,290
I don't think I'm particularly extraordinary or unusual

601
00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:03,310
except in one thing.

602
00:23:03,410 --> 00:23:04,870
And I think this is the character we

603
00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:07,850
all not only need to cultivate that many

604
00:23:07,850 --> 00:23:08,650
of us already have.

605
00:23:08,790 --> 00:23:09,790
We just need to show it to the

606
00:23:09,790 --> 00:23:09,970
world.

607
00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:11,090
And that's just love.

608
00:23:11,670 --> 00:23:13,310
And when I think about why I've done

609
00:23:13,310 --> 00:23:14,790
these things over the last 15 years of

610
00:23:14,790 --> 00:23:16,490
my life, it comes back.

611
00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:19,670
I mean, to the animals have been important

612
00:23:19,670 --> 00:23:21,050
to me because I've been through a lot

613
00:23:21,050 --> 00:23:22,570
of hard experiences in my life.

614
00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:25,390
And I was severely bullied to the point

615
00:23:25,390 --> 00:23:27,590
that I was hospitalised as a child, racial

616
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:28,470
teasing and bullying.

617
00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:30,650
And there are many times in my life

618
00:23:30,650 --> 00:23:32,490
I thought everything had collapsed and fallen apart.

619
00:23:33,010 --> 00:23:35,310
And time after time, the ones who brought

620
00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:37,730
me back from the brink were my dogs.

621
00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:39,150
And I've said this before.

622
00:23:39,150 --> 00:23:41,450
I mean, the main thing I have that

623
00:23:41,450 --> 00:23:43,890
maybe other people don't have or don't even

624
00:23:43,890 --> 00:23:46,830
just realise they have yet is that I

625
00:23:46,830 --> 00:23:47,630
really love dogs.

626
00:23:47,890 --> 00:23:51,450
And I reached the conclusion, you know, roughly

627
00:23:51,450 --> 00:23:54,470
15 years ago that this relationship I have

628
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:57,510
with Oliver and Natalie and Lisa and Joan

629
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:59,050
and these animals that have been so important

630
00:23:59,050 --> 00:24:01,510
in my life is exactly the same relationship

631
00:24:01,510 --> 00:24:02,450
I could have with any animal.

632
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:03,670
And that's come true.

633
00:24:04,050 --> 00:24:06,290
You know, I've had friendships with chickens.

634
00:24:06,290 --> 00:24:07,610
I mean, you might mock me for this,

635
00:24:07,710 --> 00:24:09,610
but there's a little chicken named May who

636
00:24:09,610 --> 00:24:11,430
I rescued from a massive factory farm in

637
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:13,950
Sonoma County who loved me as much as

638
00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:14,930
any of my dogs and cats.

639
00:24:15,090 --> 00:24:16,530
She followed me everywhere on the sanctuary.

640
00:24:16,750 --> 00:24:19,430
And she knew that I loved her, too.

641
00:24:19,730 --> 00:24:21,390
And that's why she followed me, because she

642
00:24:21,390 --> 00:24:23,750
knew this man cares for me and he's

643
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:25,090
going to keep me safe even when I'm

644
00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:25,370
scared.

645
00:24:26,150 --> 00:24:28,350
And one of the most sacrilegious and disturbing

646
00:24:28,350 --> 00:24:30,330
things about what happens in labs and factory

647
00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:32,370
farms is we can have that sort of

648
00:24:32,370 --> 00:24:33,630
relationship with all these animals.

649
00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:36,030
I mean, people know how powerful it is

650
00:24:36,030 --> 00:24:37,950
to be around someone who loves you so

651
00:24:37,950 --> 00:24:41,050
unconditionally that no matter what happens, they will

652
00:24:41,050 --> 00:24:41,870
be at your side.

653
00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:42,350
Right.

654
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:45,330
And all of us have had an experience

655
00:24:45,330 --> 00:24:46,850
with a human being or animal like that.

656
00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:48,910
And that could be replicated with all these

657
00:24:48,910 --> 00:24:51,290
animals, but instead we treat them with utter

658
00:24:51,290 --> 00:24:55,770
contempt and abuse and denigrate this beautiful primordial

659
00:24:55,770 --> 00:24:57,830
bond that we have with other sentient beings

660
00:24:57,830 --> 00:24:59,710
and turn it into something corrupt and disgusting

661
00:24:59,710 --> 00:25:02,310
and filled with suffering and filth and violence.

662
00:25:03,870 --> 00:25:07,710
So, I guess, to answer your question, all

663
00:25:07,710 --> 00:25:09,510
we have to do to build characters see

664
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:11,590
the better angels in our nature and what

665
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:14,210
makes us best is not our cruelty but

666
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:14,690
our love.

667
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:16,250
And all of us have that in us.

668
00:25:16,370 --> 00:25:17,670
So, we just have to see that and

669
00:25:17,670 --> 00:25:18,630
I think the world will change.

670
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:23,210
We've got one more call, beautifully said, and

671
00:25:23,210 --> 00:25:25,310
then we're going to also talk to Murray

672
00:25:25,310 --> 00:25:27,250
Holden, who's an amazing attorney who helps your

673
00:25:27,250 --> 00:25:27,550
team.

674
00:25:28,130 --> 00:25:30,310
Tom, in Chicago, your question of thought for

675
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:30,770
Wayne Shum.

676
00:25:31,690 --> 00:25:32,430
Hi, Jane.

677
00:25:32,550 --> 00:25:33,750
Thank you for taking my call.

678
00:25:34,050 --> 00:25:36,050
Wayne, my question for you is what I'm

679
00:25:36,050 --> 00:25:39,250
noticing in these trials, it's not uncommon for

680
00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:42,090
a judge to have financial interests in these

681
00:25:42,090 --> 00:25:43,870
slaughterhouse where you're rescuing the animals.

682
00:25:43,870 --> 00:25:46,250
My question is how are they allowed to

683
00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:47,690
proceed on a case when there is a

684
00:25:47,690 --> 00:25:49,210
conflict of interest like this?

685
00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:51,350
Thank you very much for taking my call.

686
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:55,640
Yeah, unfortunately, we live in a country where

687
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,400
corporations are considered persons, while many courts and

688
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:01,940
judges consider animals things.

689
00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:05,060
And there's a very, very bad Supreme Court

690
00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:08,580
case called Citizens United that gives corporations the

691
00:26:08,580 --> 00:26:12,660
unfettered discretion to spend as much money as

692
00:26:12,660 --> 00:26:14,220
they'd like on political campaigns.

693
00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:17,180
And what that means, because at least at

694
00:26:17,180 --> 00:26:19,000
the state court level, every judge is an

695
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,100
elected official, they actually have to run campaigns

696
00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:23,720
and win them to keep their jobs, that

697
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,640
these corporations have enormous influence.

698
00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:28,660
In Sonoma County, where I was convicted, the

699
00:26:28,660 --> 00:26:31,280
Farm Bureau, which is the local lobbying organisation

700
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,000
on behalf of Big Ag, is by far,

701
00:26:34,060 --> 00:26:37,760
by far, the most powerful political and electoral

702
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,980
campaign organisation in the entire county.

703
00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:43,300
Everybody's looking for their endorsement, everybody's looking for

704
00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:46,440
their money, including the judge who ruled on

705
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:46,860
my case.

706
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,720
And while there are some rules of judicial

707
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,520
ethics that require a judge to recuse themselves

708
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,640
for a conflict of interest, one of the

709
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,380
most disturbing things about our legal system is

710
00:26:56,380 --> 00:26:59,440
typically the only person who can decide whether

711
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,180
there's a conflict of interest with a judge

712
00:27:01,180 --> 00:27:02,800
is the judge themselves.

713
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,440
Like, they decide for themselves if there's a

714
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:06,040
conflict of interest.

715
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,720
And the times in which a judge decides

716
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,260
to recuse themselves because of a conflict of

717
00:27:11,260 --> 00:27:12,540
interest are few and far between.

718
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,280
What that means is if we actually want

719
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,100
a fair criminal justice system, we have to

720
00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:20,240
work outside of court.

721
00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:23,360
We need people like, frankly, Jane, you know,

722
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:25,480
to publicise the fact that we have judges

723
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,840
who are making biassed and unfair decisions.

724
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,020
We have elected officials like prosecutors who are

725
00:27:30,020 --> 00:27:31,220
taking money from the industry.

726
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,860
And if we don't have that outside-of

727
00:27:35,860 --> 00:27:38,980
-the-courtroom accountability mechanism for our legal system,

728
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,280
our legal system is on the path to

729
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:41,620
collapse.

730
00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:44,760
So all of you and the people listening

731
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,900
to this call, Jane, journalists, writers, people on

732
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:51,740
social media, have a crucial role in ensuring

733
00:27:51,740 --> 00:27:54,220
our legal system lives up to its ideals.

734
00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:57,420
Absolutely, beautifully said.

735
00:27:57,660 --> 00:27:59,460
I want to go back to some of

736
00:27:59,460 --> 00:28:03,680
these trials because during the Sonoma trial, there

737
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:04,720
was a gag order.

738
00:28:05,380 --> 00:28:07,360
And you just made reference to the judge.

739
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,240
The judge in that case, it was really,

740
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,660
really what I would find bizarre.

741
00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:15,900
I've covered many major trials.

742
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:19,980
I never saw rulings like Judge Laura Pasaglia

743
00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:20,320
here.

744
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,300
She said that a courtroom sketch artist, forget

745
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:29,160
video camera, forget still photos, the sketch artist

746
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,540
was not permitted to take sketches, make sketches

747
00:28:32,540 --> 00:28:35,120
of the prosecutors, the witnesses, the judges, the

748
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:38,300
court staff, the jurors, the bailiffs, the observers

749
00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:39,200
in the gallery.

750
00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:41,420
And you were gagged.

751
00:28:41,420 --> 00:28:43,320
You were gagged from talking to the media.

752
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,840
That made it very hard for people to

753
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,260
cover that trial.

754
00:28:48,260 --> 00:28:51,520
A major journalist told me they're making it

755
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,620
almost impossible to cover the trial.

756
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,960
How did that make you feel while you

757
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,080
had to endure that?

758
00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,660
And it was one of the few cases

759
00:28:59,660 --> 00:29:01,000
where you actually were convicted.

760
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,560
There was a deep sense of, I mean,

761
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,040
honestly, frustration doesn't even capture despair over the

762
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,380
fact that this courtroom proceeding was unfolding in

763
00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:13,800
the shadows.

764
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,520
One of the reasons the founding fathers fought

765
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,900
for this country to be established in 1776

766
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:22,700
was because we believed in due process of

767
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:23,920
law, which includes transparency.

768
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,540
We all know that what happens in the

769
00:29:26,540 --> 00:29:29,800
dark is often not what should be happening.

770
00:29:30,380 --> 00:29:31,980
And that transparency, I mean, this is what

771
00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:33,640
King wrote in his letter from a Birmingham

772
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,320
jail, that sunlight is the cure to all

773
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,040
society's ills.

774
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,560
And what happened in that courtroom was a

775
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,460
shadow cast over not just our case, but

776
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:44,620
the entire industry of animal agriculture.

777
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:46,660
And that was the thing that caused me

778
00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:47,320
the most despair.

779
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,660
The fact that not just that I was

780
00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:51,220
facing six years in prison, not just the

781
00:29:51,220 --> 00:29:52,820
fact that they brought these very serious felony

782
00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:55,300
charges, but all the evidence, all the testimony

783
00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:58,140
that was unfolding in court was essentially being

784
00:29:58,140 --> 00:29:58,960
gagged.

785
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,900
That is highly unconstitutional.

786
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:03,200
We had the dean of Berkeley Law School,

787
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,040
the ACLU, all writing to the court saying,

788
00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:06,760
hey, you're not allowed to do this.

789
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,620
This is a violation of the first and

790
00:30:08,620 --> 00:30:10,540
most important of the Bill of Rights.

791
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,960
And it's another demonstration of how our legal

792
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,220
system is fundamentally corrupted by power and money.

793
00:30:19,220 --> 00:30:22,460
And oftentimes the only real check you have

794
00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:25,320
on that is public scrutiny, which is why

795
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,280
I'm so glad that notwithstanding all the gag

796
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,140
orders and the lamb basting that the sketch

797
00:30:31,140 --> 00:30:33,520
artist got, and I know that individual, her

798
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:33,940
name is Katya.

799
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,960
And she was just trying to exercise her

800
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,220
First Amendment right to draw and got screamed

801
00:30:38,220 --> 00:30:41,060
at at court and told if she took

802
00:30:41,060 --> 00:30:44,120
another sketch of anyone in the courtroom that

803
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:45,600
was not permitted by the court, she'd be

804
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:46,900
tossed out and possibly jailed.

805
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,220
I know that despite all those challenges, there

806
00:30:50,220 --> 00:30:51,900
were a lot of people heard about that

807
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:52,220
trial.

808
00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:54,380
And that's a testament to the vitality of

809
00:30:54,380 --> 00:30:57,220
democracy, not because of powerful people, not because

810
00:30:57,220 --> 00:30:59,840
of our government, but because of ordinary people

811
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,280
who fought for their rights, their right to

812
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,320
be heard, their right to know what's unfolding

813
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,700
behind closed doors.

814
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:08,300
And I'd also like to just point out

815
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:11,340
as a citizen, a taxpayer, look at the

816
00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:14,760
turnout of law enforcement, like it's World War

817
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,100
III at one of these open rescues where

818
00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:20,660
people are holding flowers and singing songs.

819
00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:23,580
Meanwhile, I'm afraid to walk my dog after

820
00:31:23,580 --> 00:31:24,620
1030 at night.

821
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:25,540
Okay.

822
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:28,700
Meanwhile, there are big box stores that are

823
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:31,600
being cleaned out to the point where they're

824
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,440
shutting down in California because there's so much

825
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:35,980
theft.

826
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,300
And yet, where are the cops?

827
00:31:38,580 --> 00:31:39,980
Where are the cops on my block?

828
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,660
Where are the cops cracking down on that

829
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:45,160
and a myriad of other problems that we

830
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,460
have in California and across the United States.

831
00:31:48,460 --> 00:31:51,360
But you try to rescue some chickens.

832
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,920
Oh boy, let's bring out the Marines.

833
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,020
You know, look at that.

834
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,460
That to me was so infuriating as a

835
00:32:01,460 --> 00:32:02,020
taxpayer.

836
00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:03,780
We got more callers.

837
00:32:04,460 --> 00:32:07,320
Annie and Sherman Oaks, question for Wayne Chung

838
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,620
or Maree Holden, who is also here.

839
00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:10,760
We don't want to neglect her.

840
00:32:12,540 --> 00:32:13,060
Hi.

841
00:32:13,460 --> 00:32:14,100
Thank you, Jane.

842
00:32:14,220 --> 00:32:14,980
Thank you, Wayne.

843
00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:16,520
Thank you, Maree.

844
00:32:16,820 --> 00:32:19,520
You guys are no less than heroes, really.

845
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:20,940
Heroes don't come in capes.

846
00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:23,300
Heroes come in your form.

847
00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:25,980
You know, you are leading this whole movement

848
00:32:25,980 --> 00:32:27,640
to the bright light.

849
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,780
So one of the questions I would love

850
00:32:29,780 --> 00:32:33,180
to hear from both you, Wayne and Maree,

851
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,320
what can be done about the government's involvement

852
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,300
and keeping everything in the hush-hush silence,

853
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:42,860
which you kind of addressed?

854
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:44,980
What can we do as citizens?

855
00:32:45,140 --> 00:32:46,780
Is there a way we could do class

856
00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:47,360
action?

857
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,660
Because these are crimes that are being perpetrated

858
00:32:51,660 --> 00:32:55,360
by the government, who is on top of

859
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:56,160
all the law.

860
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,520
Okay, good question.

861
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:58,440
Good question.

862
00:32:58,560 --> 00:32:59,700
Let's give them a chance to answer.

863
00:32:59,860 --> 00:33:01,820
Maree, I want to take that out to

864
00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:02,200
you.

865
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,760
We have Prop 12.

866
00:33:05,020 --> 00:33:05,920
We have Prop 2.

867
00:33:06,060 --> 00:33:07,920
I collected signatures for Prop 2.

868
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:09,900
I collected signatures for Prop 12.

869
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:13,220
These are laws on the book that say

870
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:15,000
that animals have to be treated a certain

871
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,260
way and factory farms are not exempt, but

872
00:33:17,260 --> 00:33:19,020
nobody will prosecute them.

873
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:20,860
There has not been, to my knowledge, any

874
00:33:20,860 --> 00:33:25,240
prosecutions based on these two propositions, these animal

875
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,200
welfare propositions.

876
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,580
I think a big part of the problem

877
00:33:30,580 --> 00:33:32,740
here, and Wayne talked about this a bit

878
00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:34,900
as well, is that the way our law

879
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:38,200
works is not simply that there are laws

880
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,100
on the books, those laws are broken, and

881
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:43,080
then folks who break those laws are prosecuted.

882
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,900
It's much more political than that, right?

883
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,320
So there are laws being enforced against animal

884
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,820
rights activists, particularly with respect to open rescue,

885
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,100
that might not otherwise be enforced with the

886
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:00,960
same fervour, with the same aggressiveness by the

887
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,780
state, except that there are the interests of

888
00:34:03,780 --> 00:34:06,260
powerful corporations that are at stake.

889
00:34:06,260 --> 00:34:08,300
We see this as well with what happened

890
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:10,239
in the Shack case, with the Animal Enterprises

891
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:15,320
Terrorism Act, with what is dubbed as domestic

892
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,480
terrorism in this country, when really it's activism

893
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:23,080
on behalf of beings who are suffering, who

894
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,760
don't have a voice, and then people who

895
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,880
are trying to give that voice.

896
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,060
And so I think using the legal process

897
00:34:31,060 --> 00:34:33,159
is incredibly important.

898
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:36,199
Things like class actions, like our caller mentioned,

899
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,040
consumer protection suits, all of those sorts of

900
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,460
things, I think the movement should be addressing

901
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:49,520
the issue with every possible legal avenue that

902
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:50,420
it can find.

903
00:34:50,420 --> 00:34:57,780
And until we have a swell of public

904
00:34:57,780 --> 00:35:01,640
support underneath, where enough people are saying, we

905
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,600
don't want to see animals abused, and we

906
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,680
demand that the political process, that the legal

907
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,140
process be used in a way that protects

908
00:35:08,140 --> 00:35:11,380
animals and not just big corporations, I think

909
00:35:11,380 --> 00:35:13,340
that we will continue to see a lot

910
00:35:13,340 --> 00:35:14,200
of this stuff happen.

911
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,860
And that's a big part of what the

912
00:35:15,860 --> 00:35:18,120
Open Rescue Movement is trying to achieve, is

913
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,340
to- Let me say this, I want

914
00:35:20,340 --> 00:35:21,020
to jump in.

915
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,880
So you're saying there could be a class

916
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,060
action suit by citizens such as myself, I

917
00:35:27,060 --> 00:35:29,140
live in California, I voted for Prop 2,

918
00:35:29,260 --> 00:35:32,200
I voted for Prop 12, I collected signatures,

919
00:35:32,660 --> 00:35:34,680
no prosecution, no enforcement.

920
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,000
I even went up to a legislator, a

921
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,320
state legislator at an event and I said,

922
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,880
you know, there's never been a prosecution involving

923
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,880
violations of the Prop 2 or the Prop

924
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:46,320
12.

925
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,820
And she said, well, she brushed me off.

926
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,020
Well, we don't have money for enforcement and

927
00:35:51,020 --> 00:35:52,040
just sort of trotted off.

928
00:35:52,220 --> 00:35:54,900
And I thought, whoa, we are screwed.

929
00:35:54,900 --> 00:35:57,280
So maybe we should think about that.

930
00:35:57,460 --> 00:35:59,200
Maybe we should, you know, a lot of

931
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,420
good ideas come out of these podcasts.

932
00:36:01,460 --> 00:36:03,340
I think we should think about filing a

933
00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:05,040
class action suit about that.

934
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,380
And I'd certainly be happy to lend my

935
00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:09,620
name as somebody who does not want to

936
00:36:09,620 --> 00:36:11,800
see my tax dollars personally as an individual

937
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,020
going to the prosecution of people who are

938
00:36:14,020 --> 00:36:17,420
rescuing animals, while those who are abusing animals

939
00:36:17,420 --> 00:36:21,620
inside factory farms get to violate the law

940
00:36:21,620 --> 00:36:22,280
with impunity.

941
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,100
Let's think about that.

942
00:36:24,980 --> 00:36:26,740
Okay, we are going to do one more

943
00:36:26,740 --> 00:36:29,060
caller, Christina in Los Angeles.

944
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,040
Thank you for your patience.

945
00:36:30,140 --> 00:36:31,680
If you're still there, your question or thought.

946
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:33,780
Hi there.

947
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:34,600
Yes.

948
00:36:35,380 --> 00:36:37,300
Wayne, I have a question.

949
00:36:37,740 --> 00:36:41,180
I just heard recently that Taiwan has banned

950
00:36:41,180 --> 00:36:42,220
animal experiments.

951
00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:44,600
I didn't get to read all the details

952
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:45,120
of it.

953
00:36:46,380 --> 00:36:50,740
I'm wondering if Taiwan, since it's also my

954
00:36:50,740 --> 00:36:54,200
original country and where your family's from, do

955
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,400
you think that there's any possibility of trying

956
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,400
to reach out and work with the government

957
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,140
in terms of publicising what they have done

958
00:37:05,140 --> 00:37:08,560
and then also in conjunction with your situation

959
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,540
in your case?

960
00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:14,170
Yeah, so shout out to all the Taiwanese

961
00:37:14,170 --> 00:37:15,890
activists who've been working so hard.

962
00:37:16,690 --> 00:37:20,890
And they definitely discredit the idea that people

963
00:37:20,890 --> 00:37:22,710
in China don't support animal rights because there

964
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:26,450
are enormous movements for animal rights in Taiwan

965
00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:27,050
and China.

966
00:37:27,050 --> 00:37:28,590
And Taiwan, for those of you who don't

967
00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:30,070
know, is just one of the leading vegan

968
00:37:30,070 --> 00:37:30,870
cities in the world.

969
00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:32,250
There are vegan restaurants everywhere.

970
00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:34,870
It's no surprise that Taiwan and Taipei are

971
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:36,950
also the first nation in the world to

972
00:37:36,950 --> 00:37:38,550
recognise same-sex marriage rights.

973
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:41,090
And they also happen to be very supportive

974
00:37:41,090 --> 00:37:42,270
of animal rights, which is great.

975
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:46,330
I think the second question, what role does

976
00:37:46,330 --> 00:37:46,890
government play?

977
00:37:47,290 --> 00:37:48,890
And Murray was mentioning some of the problems

978
00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:49,670
we've seen in government.

979
00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:52,570
Zhang was talking about the possibility of bringing

980
00:37:52,570 --> 00:37:53,310
a class act.

981
00:37:55,330 --> 00:37:56,990
All these strategies and tactics are important.

982
00:37:56,990 --> 00:37:58,830
But the most important thing for people to

983
00:37:58,830 --> 00:38:02,590
understand about government law is that what the

984
00:38:02,590 --> 00:38:06,810
law is is fundamentally up to us, not

985
00:38:06,810 --> 00:38:08,150
up to people in robes, not up to

986
00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:10,190
lawyers, not up to elected officials.

987
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:13,390
And we've seen that time and time again,

988
00:38:13,450 --> 00:38:17,410
especially when a law is not being enforced.

989
00:38:17,890 --> 00:38:19,230
We had a law in the books in

990
00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:22,750
the 1960s called the Equal Protection Amendment.

991
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:24,110
It was not just a law.

992
00:38:24,190 --> 00:38:26,090
It was part of the American Constitution.

993
00:38:26,230 --> 00:38:28,670
It was the 14th Amendment that gave everyone

994
00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:31,010
in this country equal protection under the laws.

995
00:38:31,870 --> 00:38:33,790
And yet everywhere in the country, people of

996
00:38:33,790 --> 00:38:35,970
colour like myself were denied that basic right.

997
00:38:35,970 --> 00:38:38,350
And ultimately, it wasn't us just going to

998
00:38:38,350 --> 00:38:39,650
the government and saying, hey, do you guys

999
00:38:39,650 --> 00:38:41,670
mind giving me my rights?

1000
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:44,530
People had to fight and sacrifice, in some

1001
00:38:44,530 --> 00:38:48,270
cases die, to achieve the upholding of that

1002
00:38:48,270 --> 00:38:49,530
very important legal principle.

1003
00:38:50,270 --> 00:38:51,730
You look at same-sex marriage.

1004
00:38:52,110 --> 00:38:54,910
It was not ultimately the government officials themselves

1005
00:38:54,910 --> 00:38:57,230
who drove progress on same-sex rights.

1006
00:38:57,590 --> 00:38:59,730
In the 1980s, when there was another pandemic

1007
00:38:59,730 --> 00:39:01,550
killing off hundreds of people in this country,

1008
00:39:01,790 --> 00:39:06,050
there were protests and marches and campaigns all

1009
00:39:06,050 --> 00:39:08,510
over the country to say that silence is

1010
00:39:08,510 --> 00:39:09,870
death, that this is not okay.

1011
00:39:09,870 --> 00:39:11,110
We are no longer going to hide in

1012
00:39:11,110 --> 00:39:11,530
the shadows.

1013
00:39:11,990 --> 00:39:13,030
We're going to be out, we're going to

1014
00:39:13,030 --> 00:39:14,690
be proud, and we're going to say, we

1015
00:39:14,690 --> 00:39:15,750
don't just have the right to be gay,

1016
00:39:15,810 --> 00:39:16,690
we have the right to marry.

1017
00:39:16,850 --> 00:39:19,090
Our love has a right to be enshrined

1018
00:39:19,090 --> 00:39:20,430
as a constitutional right.

1019
00:39:20,930 --> 00:39:22,850
And people laughed and mocked, in some cases,

1020
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:24,630
beat up and even killed activists in the

1021
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:26,050
1980s for fighting for gay rights.

1022
00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:29,170
And lo and behold, 25 years later, we

1023
00:39:29,170 --> 00:39:31,370
have the Supreme Court case, Obergefell v.

1024
00:39:31,530 --> 00:39:33,750
Hodges, that announced same-sex marriage is now

1025
00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:35,230
a constitutional right, as it should have been

1026
00:39:35,230 --> 00:39:36,110
back in the 1980s.

1027
00:39:36,110 --> 00:39:40,810
So fundamentally, government is always at the back

1028
00:39:40,810 --> 00:39:41,250
of the train.

1029
00:39:41,550 --> 00:39:42,410
It's not at the front of the chain.

1030
00:39:42,790 --> 00:39:45,890
The engine for progress is the grassroots, and

1031
00:39:45,890 --> 00:39:47,810
you and I and the other people in

1032
00:39:47,810 --> 00:39:52,070
the grassroots have to recognise our power to

1033
00:39:52,070 --> 00:39:53,050
be authors of the law.

1034
00:39:53,950 --> 00:39:56,030
Do you think we're going to have to

1035
00:39:56,030 --> 00:39:57,210
wait 25 years?

1036
00:39:57,370 --> 00:39:59,110
Because there's a slight difference.

1037
00:39:59,710 --> 00:40:05,010
With this movement, we're facing a climate apocalypse.

1038
00:40:05,490 --> 00:40:07,850
In fact, Unchained TV has a great documentary

1039
00:40:07,850 --> 00:40:10,030
called Countdown to Year Zero about it that

1040
00:40:10,030 --> 00:40:12,150
says, we've got only a few short years

1041
00:40:12,150 --> 00:40:15,090
to transition to a plant-based culture because

1042
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:18,270
animal agriculture is such a huge contributor to

1043
00:40:18,270 --> 00:40:19,090
climate change.

1044
00:40:19,090 --> 00:40:21,710
So with this clock ticking, how can we

1045
00:40:21,710 --> 00:40:22,910
accelerate this movement?

1046
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:26,650
What is the fastest way to get people

1047
00:40:26,650 --> 00:40:27,310
to wake up?

1048
00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:30,570
You're right, the clock's ticking.

1049
00:40:30,810 --> 00:40:32,010
And it's not just 25 years.

1050
00:40:32,090 --> 00:40:33,770
I mean, every second, if you look at

1051
00:40:33,770 --> 00:40:35,570
the kill counters of the number of animals

1052
00:40:35,570 --> 00:40:37,290
who are going through just unfathomable suffering, I

1053
00:40:37,290 --> 00:40:39,710
mean, every second, it's literally, I think thousands

1054
00:40:39,710 --> 00:40:42,130
of animals are dying and being tortured in

1055
00:40:42,130 --> 00:40:44,370
just ways that are hard to even imagine.

1056
00:40:44,370 --> 00:40:46,770
I mean, I've seen these things firsthand, and

1057
00:40:46,770 --> 00:40:48,190
I've had trouble imagining them.

1058
00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:52,390
But I think we can achieve this in

1059
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:52,930
25 years.

1060
00:40:52,990 --> 00:40:55,430
And by it, I mean an animal Bill

1061
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:58,270
of Rights, the idea that animals are persons

1062
00:40:58,270 --> 00:41:01,210
under the US Constitution who are entitled to

1063
00:41:01,210 --> 00:41:01,990
their life and their liberty.

1064
00:41:01,990 --> 00:41:04,650
And one of the biggest things we need

1065
00:41:04,650 --> 00:41:07,070
to do in the grassroots, because I'm all

1066
00:41:07,070 --> 00:41:08,530
about grassroots power, and I think the history

1067
00:41:08,530 --> 00:41:10,430
and evidence on social change shows that grassroots

1068
00:41:10,430 --> 00:41:13,330
power is what creates change, is we need

1069
00:41:13,330 --> 00:41:14,650
a large number of people in the grassroots

1070
00:41:14,650 --> 00:41:15,970
understanding that vision.

1071
00:41:16,470 --> 00:41:19,550
So often, people just are so scared to

1072
00:41:19,550 --> 00:41:20,090
speak out.

1073
00:41:20,690 --> 00:41:22,430
They're afraid even to ask for bigger cages

1074
00:41:22,430 --> 00:41:23,370
or better desks.

1075
00:41:23,610 --> 00:41:25,410
At best, maybe they ask their parents and

1076
00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:26,750
their friends, oh, do you mind buying the

1077
00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:27,370
free-range chicken?

1078
00:41:28,030 --> 00:41:29,730
And I think it's a great sentiment that

1079
00:41:29,730 --> 00:41:31,110
people want cage-free eggs and free-range

1080
00:41:31,110 --> 00:41:31,410
chicken.

1081
00:41:31,410 --> 00:41:33,330
But the thing that is going to drive

1082
00:41:33,330 --> 00:41:36,650
progress at an exponential scale is for us

1083
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:39,850
to have a big dream and the ability

1084
00:41:39,850 --> 00:41:40,810
to defend that dream.

1085
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:43,630
That is literally what Martin Luther King Jr.

1086
00:41:43,770 --> 00:41:44,830
did in 1963.

1087
00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:46,330
He said, I have a dream.

1088
00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:48,270
He didn't say, I have a small reform

1089
00:41:48,270 --> 00:41:49,390
that I hope you will join in.

1090
00:41:49,390 --> 00:41:51,650
He said, I got a dream, not just

1091
00:41:51,650 --> 00:41:53,410
that we end segregation, but little black kids

1092
00:41:53,410 --> 00:41:55,150
and little white kids and little Chinese kids

1093
00:41:55,150 --> 00:41:57,850
can walk together and fun town, and we

1094
00:41:57,850 --> 00:41:59,950
don't have to worry about who has more

1095
00:41:59,950 --> 00:42:01,510
power, who's allowed to be or who's not,

1096
00:42:01,650 --> 00:42:03,070
because we understand that we all have equal

1097
00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:03,390
rights.

1098
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:05,810
Similarly, we have to understand the vision.

1099
00:42:05,970 --> 00:42:08,150
Our vision is a world that people will

1100
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:09,510
get behind if we defend it.

1101
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:11,910
It's a world where every single animal who's

1102
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:14,470
currently being tortured is given a life that's

1103
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:16,210
safe, happy, and free, and that's enshrined in

1104
00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:16,950
the U.S. Constitution.

1105
00:42:17,810 --> 00:42:19,230
And we have to defend that vision, we

1106
00:42:19,230 --> 00:42:20,730
have to strategise around that vision, and we

1107
00:42:20,730 --> 00:42:22,430
need people in the grassroots to understand the

1108
00:42:22,430 --> 00:42:23,250
importance of that vision.

1109
00:42:23,250 --> 00:42:26,510
And if we do that, then I think

1110
00:42:26,510 --> 00:42:29,170
most Americans and most people around the world

1111
00:42:29,170 --> 00:42:30,090
have compassion for animals.

1112
00:42:30,290 --> 00:42:31,610
They want that to happen too.

1113
00:42:32,170 --> 00:42:34,950
It's our job to show them that vision

1114
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:37,790
is not just realistic, but it is inevitable,

1115
00:42:37,810 --> 00:42:39,450
because as you said, Jane, if we are

1116
00:42:39,450 --> 00:42:41,470
going to save life as we know it

1117
00:42:41,470 --> 00:42:43,970
on this earth, we need to let these

1118
00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:45,170
animals out of the cages, because it's not

1119
00:42:45,170 --> 00:42:46,410
just killing them, it's killing us too.

1120
00:42:46,410 --> 00:42:47,750
Oh, yeah.

1121
00:42:47,950 --> 00:42:52,690
I mean, we've reduced wildlife biomass, mammal biomass

1122
00:42:52,690 --> 00:42:56,430
of wildlife to 4% while increasing livestock

1123
00:42:56,430 --> 00:43:01,270
biomass, mammal biomass to 62%.

1124
00:43:01,270 --> 00:43:02,890
As somebody, I think it might have been

1125
00:43:02,890 --> 00:43:05,990
you said, most living beings are living in

1126
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:06,770
cages today.

1127
00:43:07,070 --> 00:43:08,790
I mean, the sickness of it.

1128
00:43:08,930 --> 00:43:10,450
But I've got to ask you a question.

1129
00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:13,190
Why is it that more people don't get

1130
00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:13,350
it?

1131
00:43:13,350 --> 00:43:15,650
I mean, you have to be living under

1132
00:43:15,650 --> 00:43:18,470
a rock at this point to not know

1133
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:23,950
that milk involves terrible cruelty, meat involves terrible

1134
00:43:23,950 --> 00:43:26,430
cruelty, and yet there are so many people,

1135
00:43:26,570 --> 00:43:31,170
the vast majority, who just are not paying

1136
00:43:31,170 --> 00:43:32,450
attention no matter what.

1137
00:43:32,570 --> 00:43:33,690
And then you try to show them the

1138
00:43:33,690 --> 00:43:34,170
videos.

1139
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:36,830
It's see no evil, hear no evil.

1140
00:43:38,750 --> 00:43:40,030
And then we're going to go back to

1141
00:43:40,030 --> 00:43:40,650
the callers.

1142
00:43:40,650 --> 00:43:47,450
I think that one of the fundamental attributes

1143
00:43:47,450 --> 00:43:51,530
of human psychology and decision making and identity

1144
00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:53,590
is that we're highly social animals.

1145
00:43:54,290 --> 00:43:57,730
And we are willing to deny our own

1146
00:43:57,730 --> 00:44:00,530
eyes what we see if the society around

1147
00:44:00,530 --> 00:44:02,350
us tells us something different.

1148
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:04,150
And there is a very famous experiment that's

1149
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:07,110
been replicated many times by a psychologist named

1150
00:44:07,110 --> 00:44:09,650
Solomon Ash at Harvard University, where he asked

1151
00:44:09,650 --> 00:44:11,450
people to look at a set of lines.

1152
00:44:12,170 --> 00:44:14,250
And just ask them to answer the question,

1153
00:44:14,330 --> 00:44:15,230
which line is longer?

1154
00:44:15,390 --> 00:44:16,870
When it was very clear, you look at

1155
00:44:16,870 --> 00:44:18,530
line A, you look at line B, line

1156
00:44:18,530 --> 00:44:19,330
A is clearly longer.

1157
00:44:19,590 --> 00:44:20,990
And anyone's got eyes can see this.

1158
00:44:21,530 --> 00:44:23,430
And what he found is that something like

1159
00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:25,970
70% of people would give the wrong

1160
00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:29,650
answer, would reject even their own eyes when

1161
00:44:29,650 --> 00:44:31,350
they were planted in a group where everyone

1162
00:44:31,350 --> 00:44:32,470
else was given the wrong answer.

1163
00:44:33,210 --> 00:44:36,690
And that's, you know, it's not a good

1164
00:44:36,690 --> 00:44:38,170
or bad, it's just who we are.

1165
00:44:38,310 --> 00:44:40,070
In many ways, it's great that we're such

1166
00:44:40,070 --> 00:44:40,850
social animals.

1167
00:44:40,850 --> 00:44:43,390
And we believe so much in working with

1168
00:44:43,390 --> 00:44:44,070
the people around us.

1169
00:44:44,090 --> 00:44:46,950
But it also leads us astray.

1170
00:44:47,370 --> 00:44:49,390
And the Solomon Ash experiment in what's happening

1171
00:44:49,390 --> 00:44:50,570
to animals is an example of this.

1172
00:44:50,910 --> 00:44:54,190
So to me, the fundamental problem is, if

1173
00:44:54,190 --> 00:44:55,570
you look at the Solomon Ash experiments, this

1174
00:44:55,570 --> 00:44:57,130
is a solution to those experiments, too, is

1175
00:44:57,130 --> 00:44:58,890
if you don't get a critical mass of

1176
00:44:58,890 --> 00:45:00,890
people willing to be dissenters and say, look,

1177
00:45:00,970 --> 00:45:02,450
everyone else may be saying it's fine to

1178
00:45:02,450 --> 00:45:03,290
torture and kill these animals.

1179
00:45:03,410 --> 00:45:05,830
But honest to God, when I think about

1180
00:45:05,830 --> 00:45:06,830
it, I can't stomach this.

1181
00:45:07,050 --> 00:45:07,990
This has got to stop.

1182
00:45:08,350 --> 00:45:09,830
And what Solomon Ash found is if you

1183
00:45:09,830 --> 00:45:12,370
can get a critical mass of dissenters to

1184
00:45:12,370 --> 00:45:14,390
buck back, to push back against the norm,

1185
00:45:14,770 --> 00:45:17,190
you can basically inoculate people from that social

1186
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:17,470
effect.

1187
00:45:17,590 --> 00:45:19,170
You can cure the problem of all these

1188
00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:21,290
people denying what they see with their own

1189
00:45:21,290 --> 00:45:21,610
eyes.

1190
00:45:21,610 --> 00:45:22,970
And you get to 100% accuracy.

1191
00:45:23,110 --> 00:45:24,670
100% of people say like, oh, wait,

1192
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:26,410
if there's at least one other person backing

1193
00:45:26,410 --> 00:45:28,330
me up and saying line A is the

1194
00:45:28,330 --> 00:45:29,450
longer line, I'm willing to do it too.

1195
00:45:29,730 --> 00:45:30,730
And the same is true of animals.

1196
00:45:30,730 --> 00:45:33,130
If we had a critical mass, and the

1197
00:45:33,130 --> 00:45:35,470
evidence from another Harvard scholar named Erica Chenoweth

1198
00:45:35,470 --> 00:45:37,630
suggests we only really need 3.5%

1199
00:45:37,630 --> 00:45:38,290
of the population.

1200
00:45:38,890 --> 00:45:40,390
We can get 3.5% of the

1201
00:45:40,390 --> 00:45:42,250
population to come out and say, you know

1202
00:45:42,250 --> 00:45:44,230
what, I'm not sure I like the idea

1203
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:47,250
of scalding animals alive, of confining beagle puppies

1204
00:45:47,250 --> 00:45:48,810
in a cage to the point they're psychotic

1205
00:45:48,810 --> 00:45:50,430
and spinning for hours endlessly.

1206
00:45:51,070 --> 00:45:52,870
If we can get 3.5% of

1207
00:45:52,870 --> 00:45:55,730
the population speaking out about this, then the

1208
00:45:55,730 --> 00:45:57,070
entire house of cards will collapse.

1209
00:45:57,550 --> 00:45:59,730
And so that's our task, to persuade people

1210
00:45:59,730 --> 00:46:01,670
we need to create enough momentum that all

1211
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:04,410
the people out there who do agree with

1212
00:46:04,410 --> 00:46:06,310
us, but aren't willing to say it, suddenly

1213
00:46:06,310 --> 00:46:07,890
feel confident enough to come out right and

1214
00:46:07,890 --> 00:46:08,930
say, you know what, I don't like this

1215
00:46:08,930 --> 00:46:09,150
either.

1216
00:46:09,150 --> 00:46:11,990
And that's why I started Unchained TV, the

1217
00:46:11,990 --> 00:46:15,390
world's only plant-based animal rights streaming network,

1218
00:46:15,450 --> 00:46:18,610
because with 8.1 billion humans, we cannot

1219
00:46:18,610 --> 00:46:20,010
talk to everybody individually.

1220
00:46:20,350 --> 00:46:22,910
We must use mass media, and we must

1221
00:46:22,910 --> 00:46:24,930
use every single technology.

1222
00:46:24,930 --> 00:46:28,310
Streaming has overtaken broadcasting cable as the number

1223
00:46:28,310 --> 00:46:32,030
one way people are consuming TV, and there

1224
00:46:32,030 --> 00:46:32,450
it is.

1225
00:46:32,910 --> 00:46:35,910
There's Unchained TV on my Samsung TV behind

1226
00:46:35,910 --> 00:46:36,130
me.

1227
00:46:36,210 --> 00:46:38,170
You can also download it with an Apple

1228
00:46:38,170 --> 00:46:43,370
device, Apple Plus device, or an Amazon Fire

1229
00:46:43,370 --> 00:46:45,830
Stick, or a Roku device.

1230
00:46:45,830 --> 00:46:47,650
So download it and be part of the

1231
00:46:47,650 --> 00:46:49,390
solution, because it doesn't belong to me.

1232
00:46:49,450 --> 00:46:53,370
It's a community-free, community streaming network, just

1233
00:46:53,370 --> 00:46:54,330
like Netflix.

1234
00:46:54,790 --> 00:46:56,630
It's right there on any TV.

1235
00:46:57,110 --> 00:46:58,750
All right, Sarah's been very patient.

1236
00:46:59,050 --> 00:47:00,890
Sarah in Beverly Hills, your question or thought?

1237
00:47:00,890 --> 00:47:05,700
Hi, my question is for Wayne.

1238
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,680
I wanted to find out, even though the

1239
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,240
charges got dismissed, and they're planning on going

1240
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:15,460
to the Beagle place, I want to find

1241
00:47:15,460 --> 00:47:21,100
out when is the Beagle testing place going

1242
00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:24,500
to shut down, and when they go there,

1243
00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:27,080
is that the goal to shut it down?

1244
00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:30,660
Because I think that's really what I want

1245
00:47:30,660 --> 00:47:30,980
to know.

1246
00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:33,220
Thank you.

1247
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,300
And I think the answer is up to

1248
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:38,000
you, and me, and everyone else.

1249
00:47:39,260 --> 00:47:40,720
This is a facility that has been in

1250
00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:42,020
violation of law for decades.

1251
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:43,780
I don't think there's any dispute about that.

1252
00:47:43,860 --> 00:47:46,140
Even the USDA's inspectors have acknowledged this.

1253
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,120
There are recent reports from the Wisconsin Department

1254
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:51,520
of Agriculture showing this.

1255
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,280
This is a facility that, in my view,

1256
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,100
is just as bad or worse than the

1257
00:47:58,100 --> 00:48:00,520
InVigo facility that was shut down last year

1258
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:01,160
by the federal government.

1259
00:48:01,220 --> 00:48:02,160
I think maybe it was in 2022.

1260
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,400
In many ways, that facility, a Beagle breeding

1261
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,180
facility in Virginia, was better than this facility

1262
00:48:09,180 --> 00:48:09,680
in Wisconsin.

1263
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,140
But the government doesn't act to do anything

1264
00:48:13,140 --> 00:48:15,180
to help these dogs because there's a lot

1265
00:48:15,180 --> 00:48:15,740
of money at stake.

1266
00:48:16,140 --> 00:48:18,500
If you look at Dane County, the top

1267
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:20,160
20 employers, I think over half of them

1268
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,940
are involved in the biomedical industry in some

1269
00:48:21,940 --> 00:48:22,180
way.

1270
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,180
And some of the biggest players are players

1271
00:48:25,180 --> 00:48:26,980
that are deeply involved in animal testing.

1272
00:48:26,980 --> 00:48:31,080
And that allows them to literally break the

1273
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,780
law repeatedly with no accountability.

1274
00:48:33,940 --> 00:48:35,520
If the laws of this nation were enforced,

1275
00:48:35,740 --> 00:48:37,660
Ridgeland would immediately be shut down and all

1276
00:48:37,660 --> 00:48:39,180
the animals there would be saved.

1277
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,660
To get there, we need more public outcry.

1278
00:48:42,660 --> 00:48:45,260
And so on March 18th, a lot of

1279
00:48:45,260 --> 00:48:48,120
us are posting, making phone calls, sending emails

1280
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:50,880
with the hashtag BeagleBetrayal, just trying to highlight

1281
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,100
this issue and put pressure on the elected

1282
00:48:53,100 --> 00:48:55,160
officials of our government, government we pay for.

1283
00:48:55,420 --> 00:48:56,380
We're the taxpayers.

1284
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,380
These are employees of ours who work on

1285
00:49:00,380 --> 00:49:02,840
behalf of the people and are chosen by

1286
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:03,220
the people.

1287
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:06,580
We're asking everyone to join us in pressuring

1288
00:49:06,580 --> 00:49:08,240
the government to do the right thing, which

1289
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:09,460
is helping those dogs at Ridgeland.

1290
00:49:09,540 --> 00:49:11,600
And if we get enough people to support

1291
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,620
us on March 18th, I'm not saying Ridgeland

1292
00:49:14,620 --> 00:49:18,500
and other animal abusing facilities will have to

1293
00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:20,940
release their animals immediately, but I think we'll

1294
00:49:20,940 --> 00:49:23,500
make significant progress in freeing every single one

1295
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:25,600
of those dogs from the cages in which

1296
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:26,680
they've lived their entire lives.

1297
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,520
And we also need to pass things like

1298
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,500
the Modernisation Act, which will eliminate animal testing.

1299
00:49:35,220 --> 00:49:38,840
And in this incredible article, Bred to Suffer,

1300
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:45,240
the writer talks about, these labs have conducted

1301
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:48,800
experiments, including infecting dogs with lethal pathogens, such

1302
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,920
as Salmonella and rabies, forcing ingestion of laundry

1303
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,500
detergents and exposing them to drugs, and pesticides.

1304
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,480
So another thing is, and this is from

1305
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,180
The Intercept, don't use products that are tested

1306
00:50:05,180 --> 00:50:05,760
on animals.

1307
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,460
If you don't see a leaping bunny or

1308
00:50:08,460 --> 00:50:11,900
an actual sign that says not tested on

1309
00:50:11,900 --> 00:50:13,480
animals, do not buy it.

1310
00:50:14,220 --> 00:50:17,180
Duty products and the people who promote them

1311
00:50:17,180 --> 00:50:18,640
routinely lie.

1312
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,680
They just say, oh yeah, sometimes they assume

1313
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,020
that it's not tested on animals.

1314
00:50:23,580 --> 00:50:25,600
This isn't, you know, people think, well, life

1315
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:26,060
or death.

1316
00:50:26,580 --> 00:50:28,720
I mean, the vast majority of these experiments,

1317
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,700
not that any experiments are valid when it

1318
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:34,180
comes to animals, because 95% of the

1319
00:50:34,180 --> 00:50:36,280
results that work on animals don't work on

1320
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:40,460
people, but it's things like detergent and pesticides

1321
00:50:40,460 --> 00:50:41,900
and these horrible things.

1322
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:44,300
So if you don't want to see animals

1323
00:50:44,300 --> 00:50:46,440
tortured, don't buy the products.

1324
00:50:46,700 --> 00:50:47,880
That's number one.

1325
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,400
Do not buy anything that is, doesn't clearly

1326
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:52,920
say not tested on animals.

1327
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,900
If it doesn't say that it is tested

1328
00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:55,500
on animals.

1329
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:57,120
Wow.

1330
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,560
There's just so much going on here.

1331
00:50:59,780 --> 00:51:01,400
We're in our final thoughts.

1332
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,600
I want to apologise to Murray because this,

1333
00:51:04,020 --> 00:51:06,280
I did not expect this many callers, but

1334
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,080
what, where do we go from here?

1335
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:12,040
What's the next step for this movement legally

1336
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:12,900
in the courts?

1337
00:51:40,780 --> 00:51:43,780
And so we're looking for new ways to

1338
00:51:43,780 --> 00:51:45,780
do that here in Wisconsin and elsewhere.

1339
00:51:46,540 --> 00:51:48,620
There is another right to rescue trial that

1340
00:51:48,620 --> 00:51:50,720
will be happening in Sonoma County at some

1341
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:51,100
point.

1342
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:54,760
And so I think the open rescue movement

1343
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:55,280
continues.

1344
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:56,960
The movement is alive and well, we will

1345
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,220
have additional trials.

1346
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,600
The convergence is still happening in Wisconsin, even

1347
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,860
though there's not a trial, there will be

1348
00:52:03,860 --> 00:52:06,560
many actions folks can find out about that

1349
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,480
on Direct Action Everywhere's website.

1350
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,680
So things are happening legal and non-legal.

1351
00:52:12,860 --> 00:52:15,380
And I think for me, it's so important

1352
00:52:15,380 --> 00:52:17,020
for us in the movement to be making

1353
00:52:17,020 --> 00:52:20,540
these animals individuals and not just a big

1354
00:52:20,540 --> 00:52:26,100
mass of nameless, faceless dogs in labs and

1355
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:27,500
chickens in factory farms.

1356
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:28,900
And that's part of what these right to

1357
00:52:28,900 --> 00:52:31,640
rescue trials do is they help people look

1358
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,120
at individual animals like Julie, who was rescued

1359
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,760
from this facility in Wisconsin.

1360
00:52:35,980 --> 00:52:37,940
I've gotten to know Julie and she's absolutely

1361
00:52:37,940 --> 00:52:40,840
a sentient being that no one, no one

1362
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,740
who loves dogs, no one would ever want

1363
00:52:42,740 --> 00:52:44,500
to hurt Julie or force feed her laundry

1364
00:52:44,500 --> 00:52:45,080
detergent.

1365
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,760
But people have a harder time having that

1366
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,940
same amount of empathy and compassion for a

1367
00:52:50,940 --> 00:52:52,360
larger number of animals.

1368
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:53,880
And so I think a big part of

1369
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:55,080
what we need to do in our legal

1370
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,660
strategy and in our movement strategy in general

1371
00:52:57,660 --> 00:53:00,880
is to individualise these animals and show human

1372
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,000
beings, this is Julie.

1373
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:04,340
This is what she went through.

1374
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,200
This is who she is and she deserves

1375
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:06,780
to be free.

1376
00:53:06,940 --> 00:53:09,620
And every single one of the thousands of

1377
00:53:09,620 --> 00:53:11,800
dogs in this facility in Wisconsin is just

1378
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:12,200
like her.

1379
00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:14,000
Wayne, we have one minute.

1380
00:53:14,140 --> 00:53:15,580
I wish I had one hour or two

1381
00:53:15,580 --> 00:53:17,040
hours, but your final thought.

1382
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:20,960
I mean, I guess I'll close the way

1383
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,000
I've closed a lot of interviews and talks,

1384
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,020
which is, I mean, I think there are

1385
00:53:25,020 --> 00:53:26,420
10 words that can change the world for

1386
00:53:26,420 --> 00:53:27,320
animals and for us too.

1387
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:31,300
And they're find your voice, find some friends

1388
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:32,180
and fight like hell.

1389
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,760
If we do those three things, the world

1390
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:35,320
will change.

1391
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,220
But like I said, it's up to us.

1392
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:38,500
We can't just wait for the government.

1393
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,380
We can't wait for prosecutors, corporate CEOs to

1394
00:53:41,380 --> 00:53:42,000
make this change.

1395
00:53:42,140 --> 00:53:44,240
We have to bring the change ourselves.

1396
00:53:44,420 --> 00:53:45,860
And the amazing thing is all of us

1397
00:53:45,860 --> 00:53:46,560
do have that power.

1398
00:53:46,780 --> 00:53:47,560
You've got that power.

1399
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:49,200
You just got to see it in yourself.

1400
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:50,920
There was a time in my life where

1401
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:51,520
I didn't believe it.

1402
00:53:51,580 --> 00:53:54,160
And I was a very timid academic.

1403
00:53:54,740 --> 00:53:57,960
I'm still a very nerdy, timid person in

1404
00:53:57,960 --> 00:53:58,580
a lot of ways.

1405
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,360
And I've found my confidence and my power

1406
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,800
by walking into these places and realising you

1407
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:04,600
can't get them out of hell.

1408
00:54:05,180 --> 00:54:06,940
And all of you need to see the

1409
00:54:06,940 --> 00:54:08,120
same power in your hands.

1410
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:12,460
Wayne, you inspire me to carry on.

1411
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,960
And that's why I'm going to urge everybody

1412
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,840
right now, download Unchained TV, the world's only

1413
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:19,940
vegan streaming network.

1414
00:54:20,060 --> 00:54:21,720
You can download it on any phone for

1415
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:24,440
free and on any TV via your Amazon

1416
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:26,340
Fire Stick, your Roku device, or your Apple

1417
00:54:26,340 --> 00:54:26,900
TV device.

1418
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:30,440
And it's also on any television, like the

1419
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,100
Samsung TV behind me.

1420
00:54:32,460 --> 00:54:33,860
You just go to the smart hub.

1421
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,640
You just put in Unchained TV, one word,

1422
00:54:37,140 --> 00:54:41,140
and you can literally, you can text this

1423
00:54:41,140 --> 00:54:42,760
interview to your friends.

1424
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:43,480
Okay.

1425
00:54:43,660 --> 00:54:46,840
So this interview is on the streaming network.

1426
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,240
You just hit text.

1427
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:48,880
Boom.

1428
00:54:49,180 --> 00:54:51,160
It is going on right now and you

1429
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:51,800
can text it.

1430
00:54:52,180 --> 00:54:54,300
You can text all the animal rights documentaries.

1431
00:54:54,780 --> 00:54:56,420
8.1 billion people on the planet.

1432
00:54:56,660 --> 00:54:59,120
We've got to use technology and we've got

1433
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:00,800
to use mass media.

1434
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,060
I want to thank you both.

1435
00:55:02,180 --> 00:55:03,180
You are my heroes.

1436
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:06,840
Wayne, you inspire me every single day.

1437
00:55:06,980 --> 00:55:08,640
I think, what would Wayne do?

1438
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:10,160
How would he handle it?

1439
00:55:11,260 --> 00:55:12,220
I'm serious.

1440
00:55:12,780 --> 00:55:14,580
You keep me going.

1441
00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:16,280
Thank you so much.

1442
00:55:16,420 --> 00:55:19,240
And see you next time here on Unchained

1443
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:19,580
TV.