UnchainedTV: Wayne Hsiung just avoided 16-years in prison. He's disappointed!

0:01 I am so honoured to be having a conversation today with I would say the animal rights man of the hour, Wayne Shung, who has really risked more time in prison than anyone I've ever met to speak up for voiceless animals. And we have a breaking news to tell you about amazing, amazing developments. This is an open rescue in Wisconsin that occurred in 2017. There you see Wayne Shung going into this beagle laboratory breeding facility. Well, all charges have just been dropped. All charges have just been dropped. And this video, courtesy Direct Action Everywhere, shows some of, there's one they rescued.

0:44 They rescued three beagles in all. Look at that distress spinning. And Wayne could have done 16 years in prison along with his two co-defendants. But the breaking news is that that's not going to happen because the state of Wisconsin just decided to drop all the charges. Wayne, thank you so much for being here with us. What do you make of the fact that you were set to go on trial the 11th hour after something that happened way back in 2017 they dropped the charges? This might be surprising for a lot of your viewers to hear, but my first reaction when I heard an attorney downstairs at our Airbnb screaming that the charges had been dismissed was disappointment and frustration.

1:31 And the reason is, while this case was going to be incredibly risky for me, and I cried when I left San Francisco because I had to leave my family behind, it was also an incredibly important opportunity for us to litigate important questions of not just law but ethics, including whether companies are entitled to treat dogs like mere things or whether they're living beings of rights. We still have a lot of solutions for trying to address that problem, but one of those solutions was taken off the table because if we're not being charged, we can't offer the very important legal defences we were planning to offer in court. I want to play just one minute of what it's like inside that facility.

2:11 Now, hang in there, because these beagles are there 24-7, 365, until they're transported out of a lab. See if you can handle it for one minute.

3:25 Unbelievable. What did it feel like in there when you were doing your open rescue, Wayne? It's a really interesting phenomenon that when you go into a place where there are a lot of animals who are afraid, you start feeling that fear yourself. And to have 3,000 dogs barking, howling, clawing at the cage doors, spinning psychotically because of the anguish of their life in a cage, it sends tremors down your spine. I've only been in one other place in my life that I felt as disturbed as the way I felt when I walked into that facility, and that was when I was outside of a dog meat slaughterhouse in China watching dogs being beaten to death. And the footage you just showed is just the tip of the iceberg.

4:06 It's honestly not the worst stuff that we shot because every single one of these dogs was not just trapped in a cage, but many of them were suffering from serious infections and foot injuries from staying on wire their entire lives. Many of them were on the way to being subjected to God-awful experiments, force-fed toxic substances, mutilated in surgical procedures, all sorts of vile things that hardly can be imagined by most human beings. And all of it was being hidden from the public, and this trial was going to be an opportunity to litigate not just the question of whether we committed a crime by taking that blind beagle puppy out of a cage, but whether these animals were entitled to legal protections and rescue.

4:47 And whether ordinary citizens, when the government is not acting, just have the right to go right in there and help them ourselves. We've got tonnes of callers lining up. Tiffany in Los Angeles, your question or thought for Wayne Chung. Wayne, thank you so much for everything that you've done, and you've risked everything. I wanted to, and I'm going to come out, I was coming out for the trial, but I'll be out for the rally. And I wanted to ask you, what is your opinion why the charges were dropped? So I'm in the process of writing a blog about this, which will go up shortly. But briefly, what happened in the weeks before trial was two things. One is we sent what's called a subpoena deuces tecum to Ridgeland Farms, indicating that because we're entitled to legal defence, and because they're alleging we stole $2,700 in property from the company, we sent a subpoena to the company, asking them for certain records regarding the actual treatment of the animals at their facility.

5:46 And lo and behold, a week and a half after we sent that request, which was legally binding, they have to give us these documents because we're entitled to defend ourselves, the prosecution suddenly loses interest in the case. But the second really important thing that happened that could explain why they dismissed the charges is a week and a half before they filed the motion to dismiss, we filed a motion arguing that we were entitled to rescue these animals under certain good Samaritan provisions of Wisconsin law. It's kind of the dog in a hot car situation where if a dog is being mistreated, or even just suffering, you can just break a window in Wisconsin, take that dog out. And there's no reason if we can break a window to save a dog from a hot car, we can't also break open a cage door and save a blind beagle puppy who's psychotically spinning in a cage.

6:31 And the legal principle behind this, which is called legal necessity, has implications far beyond one case because the idea behind necessity is that when you take action to help a suffering animal, you are not just protecting a thing, you're protecting a legal person who has rights. And I think both the prosecution and the broader industry were terrified about the prospect that the judge was about to rule in our favour behind the notion that animals are not mere things, as the government argued, but are legal persons who deserve rights. Because the implications of a ruling like that dogs far beyond Ridgeland Farms to the entire infrastructure of animal abuse across the entire country.

7:12 We have yet another caller. Boy, they're lining up. Jamie in Los Angeles, your question or thought for Wayne Chung, co-founder of DxE, co -founder of The Simple Heart. Hi, Wayne. It's Jamie Logan. Thank you so much for everything that you're doing. I just wanted to know how the average person can take steps to get involved in animal rescue and really step it up to change the game for animals. In many ways, it's not that complicated. I was told by my mother, my grandmother, since the time I was a kid, that when you see someone who's suffering, you try to help. And that's the basic principle behind Open Rescue, that we see someone who needs our help and we help them.

7:55 And there are obviously so many different legal, political, narrative dimensions to that tactic. But the basic principle that we're all operating under and that you can operate under if you want to be part of this movement is when you identify an animal needs help, go out and help them. Now, obviously, I don't want to encourage people to take on especially risky rescues without some sort of legal support, which is why I'm excited that we've got amazing attorneys, including Murray, who's on this call. The University of Denver has an activist defence project led by Justin Marceau, one of the most distinguished constitutional law scholars in our nation, who defended us in Ridgeland and will be defending activists in future cases.

8:36 So by all means, get some legal support and make sure you understand what the risks are before you take action. But my view is all of us have the power to take animals out of these horrific situations. And this is our dream. I mean, when we watch this awful slaughterhouse footage, this awful footage from laboratories and breeding facilities, the thing that we all want more than anything else, and then I think most Americans want more than anything else, is to take those animals out and give them the love and care they deserve. And we have to recognise the power we have in our hands. Every single person listening to this interview has the power in some way, even if not directly, but in some way, whether it's through fundraising, through communication support, legal work, or walking in yourself to help one of these animals.

9:17 And we have to recognise that power. And if we do, we won't just save three dogs from one facility in Wisconsin. We can save all the animals from cages and abusive facilities across the nation and world. All right. Well said. Paige in Los Angeles, your question or thought? Hi, Wayne. I'm curious, what is your biggest takeaway having spent time in jail and having come out and now with the drop of the charges? What's your largest takeaway? Thank you very much. Yeah, so I did spend 38 days in jail recently after being convicted of conspiracy to trespass in relating to a large demonstration, peaceful demonstration at a factory farm in Sonoma County.

10:02 It was a supplier to major grocery stores across the nation. And by far, I think the most important takeaway for me was that the public and the media are more willing to listen to us when we put some skin in the game ourselves. The number of media outlets, I don't even want to talk about all the different major broadcast and print outlets that have reached out to us in the months since then. But the number of media outlets that haven't just reached out to us but are seriously interested in diving deeper into why we did what we did, why I was willing to serve 38 days in jail, and I might have to serve more days in jail, maybe even years in jail, just far exceeded everything we had seen beforehand.

10:44 And the basic dynamic is one we've seen in many social justice struggles. We all know the name Susan B. Anthony, Rosa Parks, these brave people who have made enormous change in history, far beyond what I could ever hope to achieve in my life, certainly not on my own. And a huge part of the reason those stories were important was because those people were willing to make sacrifices. Susan B. Anthony, when everyone told her it was illegal to vote, she voted anyways, she got charged for it and convicted. Rosa Parks sat on that bus seat, even though everyone told her it was a crime, and they tried to throw her in jail for it. And for us to be treated seriously, not just by our friends and family and the people in our own communities, but by the media and maybe most importantly by the political and legal system at large, we have to be willing to risk something ourselves.

11:28 And that doesn't mean everyone has to risk jail time, but everyone can sacrifice in some ways, and without any sacrifice, there's not going to be any progress. Wow. A call to action. Nilo Farr in Dallas, Texas, your question or thought for Wayne Chung. I subscribe to your fantastic, excellent blog, Simple Heart. Ergo, a major congratulations on the recent Harvard Law Review publication regarding open rescue. Hand in hand, the powerful government and industry have been able to carry out normalised systematic violence on a massive scale, especially following World War II.

12:12 Today, prosecutors and judges compare tortured animals to dented cans, else they call dogs things, for example, in this torture facility for beagles. How did you come up with the revolutionary concept of open rescue? And you're looking at an open rescue right there. This is your two compadres. Sorry. Yeah. Alicia Santoro and the famed actress of Baywatch. There you go. Taking those two chickens and you were involved in that defence and they were acquitted.

12:56 So, yeah. How did you come up with this idea? What a brilliant idea. Well, let me just give credit where it's deserved, because it wasn't me who came up with this brilliant idea. I agree. It's brilliant. It's an otherwise ordinary woman by the name of Patty Mark in Australia, who was a mother of children, had never been in trouble with the law before in her life. And she heard about animals being tortured in a local factory farm in Australia and decided, look, if the government's not going to do anything, we got animals literally collapsing. I mean, if I saw a bird like this in a cage on the street, I'd help. And I'm not going to change things just because there's a powerful corporation that has a lot of money to make off of this bird's torture.

13:37 And so she walked right in in the middle of the night and started taking animals out. And that started the movement for open rescue. But there's actually someone even more important than Patty who needs to be credited with this strategy, which is the animals themselves. And I think we don't talk enough about the agency the animals themselves demonstrate, but every time I've been in a factory farm or a laboratory or vivisection facility, including the one we were charged for in Wisconsin, you can see that the animals themselves went out. You know, Julie, the little blind beagle puppy we were rescuing, she was spinning in the cage, not just for one minute. You saw about one minute of her spinning for two hours, two hours. We saw her spinning constantly.

14:18 And for sure, that was a demonstration of the psychological anguish and torture she had been through, but also showed how desperately she wanted and needed to get out of that cage because she was scared. She was alone and she had lived her entire life in a tiny cage. She'd never stepped outside and she wanted out. And one of the reasons we took her out was because she told us and she showed with her own behaviour, I need to get out of here. And I've told this story before, we almost left her behind because alarms went off throughout the facility. I was terrified and my team members were terrified and we started running out and we were going to depart the facility. But we stopped for a moment and asked ourselves, what did we see and what was Julie trying to tell us when she was spinning and clawing and howling in a desperate attempt to get out of the cage and what she told us and what she was actually doing herself was, I need to get out.

15:09 And so in many ways, I think what we're doing is just the fulfilment of what these animals are asking us to do and what they are doing themselves. And I've seen so many animals break themselves out of cages and factory farms and slaughterhouses. We are just trying to assist these animals in achieving what they already were entitled to and what they're desperately struggling for. So Open Rescue is not just about our agency. It's about theirs. Wow. So many callers lining up. Emick in Los Angeles, your questioner thought we're going to move through with quick questions so we can get to everybody. Emick. Hello. Hey, hi, Wayne. I miss you so much.

15:51 Thank you so much for just reminding us that we are animals and not only dogs, but every animal is our best friend. Like when I first met a pig at a vigil, I thought they were going to bite me, but they gave me a kiss in the hand before they were murdered. What can we do? How can we help better for these people who live on this planet? They build other animals. How can we help them better? And I really appreciate everything you do. You're a total hero for me and a really amazing person. Thank you. Thank you, Emick. That was sort of a question and a statement as well.

16:31 And Emick is a very, very brave activist in her own right who was injured getting tackled during a major football game to speak for those who were doing Open Rescue, such as yourself. I want to go straight out to Michael in Los Angeles. Your questioner thought, Michael. Yeah. Thank you, Gene. Hi, Wayne. I know you've seen so much horrible suffering in person. And I can tell you just when I watch a video, it's so traumatising for me. So my question is, how are you able to deal with all that you've witnessed up close and somehow compartmentalise that you don't go into like a deep depression?

17:14 Because that's something I struggle with on a daily basis. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, honestly, sometimes I don't know that I am handling it very well. So I first saw animals being slaughtered when I was about eight years old in China. I had to watch as a dog who looked exactly like my dog back at home in the United States was in a cage and dragged off to be beaten to death. And I've had night terrors, nightmares ever since. And there's actually some debate in my family as to whether we actually saw that dog be killed. You know, I'm familiar enough with the research and memory that sometimes you remember things that didn't actually happen. But my parents swear they would never have allowed me to see that.

17:55 But we all agree we saw a dog in a cage at a restaurant who was going to be slaughtered for me. And we all agree that I had nightmares for years because I woke up screaming and crying, I think, every day through the rest of that trip because I just kept thinking about this poor dog being dragged off to be killed. But the thing that helps me every day more than anything else is just knowing that we actually can save them. And I'm lucky enough that I have living proof of that in my own home. I carried a dog out of a dog meat market, a dog meat farm in China in 2017. And I, every morning, get to wake up and see this little guy, Oliver, actually it was 2016, I'm sorry, I'm getting my years wrong.

18:36 And I get to wake up every morning and see this little guy and remember that miracles could happen. There are millions of dogs killed in China every year for meat. Even at that one festival, which is called the Yiling Dog Meat Festival, the estimates are between 20,000 and 30,000 dogs are slaughtered in a single week. And almost none of those dogs get out. Every single one of them has lived their entire life in fear. And the only experiences they'll have from the time we see them until the time they die are terror and physical pain. And this dog has lived a beautiful and happy life because we're able to save him. And that's not just me because the only reason we're able to get him out literally was because we had so many people like you, Michael, behind us.

19:17 Because I got arrested by the Chinese police. They accused me of espionage initially and held me in solitary confinement, interrogated me for, I think, like 20 straight hours. Three sets of interrogators came in and interrogated me about what I was doing there. But part of the reason they released me and did not charge me with a crime was because there was mass public support for us. And the U.S. government, in that case, was behind us. So I think by far the most important thing, and this actually kind of answers Emek's question before, too, is understanding that we should not only have hope, but confidence that if we take action to help animals, they can be saved. And if you understand there's some purpose behind what you're witnessing, it's not just that we're seeing these awful things at a vigil or protest or even sharing something on social media.

20:01 But we're sharing these things and witnessing these things for a purpose, to save them. Then suddenly all that hardship and pain and even the nightmares I have, I have nightmares when I go to sleep and I wake up and I see Oliver and I get back to work. Because I know this little guy, my best friend in the world, he's living proof that these changes that we know the animals need can happen and have happened. Let's meet Oliver and you before you found out that all the charges were dropped. Yeah, so the stakes are feeling very, very high right now. Because this guy's been with me for the last eight years and we've done so much together. And today's the day I say goodbye to him for the rest of my life.

20:44 I'm facing 16 years in prison, and even if it's a medium term, he's eight years old. So another eight years, 16 years, he's not going to make it that long. And I don't think that's going to happen, I think we're going to win. But I still have to get ready for this to be possibly the final time I get to see my little guy. Having him in my life, just so much to me. You can stop and ask yourself for a moment, if there was someone you loved who was in danger, what would you do? And this guy literally was in danger, he was two weeks from dying. But the thing we have to remember is that there is some nameless animal who's trapped in a cage who is just like Oliver. Who's just like the one you love. And we have to remember, it's not just Oliver or Julie, it's the thousands of other dogs.

21:28 It's the billions of other animals trapped in cages who need our help. And we've got to act for them as we act for the ones we love. So that's what I have to do too. We are moments away from stepping out of here. And again, this is going to be my last time getting a pen on the head. And he's feeling it too. I've got to go. Alright, bye little guy. I love you so much. Okay? Wow, that brings tears to my eyes. And you are not going to spend 16 years in prison for those charges because all those felony charges were dropped. That is the breaking news we're covering. Honestly, we've got to go to more callers because they're just pouring in.

22:10 Renee in Welder, Texas, your question or thought for Wayne Chung. Hi, Wayne. Oh my God, my sweet friend and hero. You demonstrate so much courage and unwavering dedication and strategic thinking. And I just can't tell you how proud I am of you. But I just want to know from your opinion, what kind of character does it take for activists to deliberately get arrested in order to draw the kind of attention that's necessary to the atrocities of animal cruelty?

22:50 Yeah, it's funny because I know a lot of people say nice things about me. Jane said a lot of nice things about me. You're a hero. You're brave. I don't think I'm particularly extraordinary or unusual except in one thing. And I think this is the character we all not only need to cultivate that many of us already have. We just need to show it to the world. And that's just love. And when I think about why I've done these things over the last 15 years of my life, it comes back. I mean, to the animals have been important to me because I've been through a lot of hard experiences in my life. And I was severely bullied to the point that I was hospitalised as a child, racial teasing and bullying. And there are many times in my life I thought everything had collapsed and fallen apart.

23:33 And time after time, the ones who brought me back from the brink were my dogs. And I've said this before. I mean, the main thing I have that maybe other people don't have or don't even just realise they have yet is that I really love dogs. And I reached the conclusion, you know, roughly 15 years ago that this relationship I have with Oliver and Natalie and Lisa and Joan and these animals that have been so important in my life is exactly the same relationship I could have with any animal. And that's come true. You know, I've had friendships with chickens. I mean, you might mock me for this, but there's a little chicken named May who I rescued from a massive factory farm in Sonoma County who loved me as much as any of my dogs and cats.

24:15 She followed me everywhere on the sanctuary. And she knew that I loved her, too. And that's why she followed me, because she knew this man cares for me and he's going to keep me safe even when I'm scared. And one of the most sacrilegious and disturbing things about what happens in labs and factory farms is we can have that sort of relationship with all these animals. I mean, people know how powerful it is to be around someone who loves you so unconditionally that no matter what happens, they will be at your side. Right. And all of us have had an experience with a human being or animal like that. And that could be replicated with all these animals, but instead we treat them with utter contempt and abuse and denigrate this beautiful primordial bond that we have with other sentient beings and turn it into something corrupt and disgusting and filled with suffering and filth and violence.

25:03 So, I guess, to answer your question, all we have to do to build characters see the better angels in our nature and what makes us best is not our cruelty but our love. And all of us have that in us. So, we just have to see that and I think the world will change. We've got one more call, beautifully said, and then we're going to also talk to Murray Holden, who's an amazing attorney who helps your team. Tom, in Chicago, your question of thought for Wayne Shum. Hi, Jane. Thank you for taking my call. Wayne, my question for you is what I'm noticing in these trials, it's not uncommon for a judge to have financial interests in these slaughterhouse where you're rescuing the animals.

25:43 My question is how are they allowed to proceed on a case when there is a conflict of interest like this? Thank you very much for taking my call. Yeah, unfortunately, we live in a country where corporations are considered persons, while many courts and judges consider animals things. And there's a very, very bad Supreme Court case called Citizens United that gives corporations the unfettered discretion to spend as much money as they'd like on political campaigns. And what that means, because at least at the state court level, every judge is an elected official, they actually have to run campaigns and win them to keep their jobs, that these corporations have enormous influence.

26:26 In Sonoma County, where I was convicted, the Farm Bureau, which is the local lobbying organisation on behalf of Big Ag, is by far, by far, the most powerful political and electoral campaign organisation in the entire county. Everybody's looking for their endorsement, everybody's looking for their money, including the judge who ruled on my case. And while there are some rules of judicial ethics that require a judge to recuse themselves for a conflict of interest, one of the most disturbing things about our legal system is typically the only person who can decide whether there's a conflict of interest with a judge is the judge themselves. Like, they decide for themselves if there's a conflict of interest. And the times in which a judge decides to recuse themselves because of a conflict of interest are few and far between.

27:13 What that means is if we actually want a fair criminal justice system, we have to work outside of court. We need people like, frankly, Jane, you know, to publicise the fact that we have judges who are making biassed and unfair decisions. We have elected officials like prosecutors who are taking money from the industry. And if we don't have that outside-of -the-courtroom accountability mechanism for our legal system, our legal system is on the path to collapse. So all of you and the people listening to this call, Jane, journalists, writers, people on social media, have a crucial role in ensuring our legal system lives up to its ideals.

27:55 Absolutely, beautifully said. I want to go back to some of these trials because during the Sonoma trial, there was a gag order. And you just made reference to the judge. The judge in that case, it was really, really what I would find bizarre. I've covered many major trials. I never saw rulings like Judge Laura Pasaglia here. She said that a courtroom sketch artist, forget video camera, forget still photos, the sketch artist was not permitted to take sketches, make sketches of the prosecutors, the witnesses, the judges, the court staff, the jurors, the bailiffs, the observers in the gallery.

28:39 And you were gagged. You were gagged from talking to the media. That made it very hard for people to cover that trial. A major journalist told me they're making it almost impossible to cover the trial. How did that make you feel while you had to endure that? And it was one of the few cases where you actually were convicted. There was a deep sense of, I mean, honestly, frustration doesn't even capture despair over the fact that this courtroom proceeding was unfolding in the shadows. One of the reasons the founding fathers fought for this country to be established in 1776 was because we believed in due process of law, which includes transparency.

29:24 We all know that what happens in the dark is often not what should be happening. And that transparency, I mean, this is what King wrote in his letter from a Birmingham jail, that sunlight is the cure to all society's ills. And what happened in that courtroom was a shadow cast over not just our case, but the entire industry of animal agriculture. And that was the thing that caused me the most despair. The fact that not just that I was facing six years in prison, not just the fact that they brought these very serious felony charges, but all the evidence, all the testimony that was unfolding in court was essentially being gagged. That is highly unconstitutional. We had the dean of Berkeley Law School, the ACLU, all writing to the court saying, hey, you're not allowed to do this.

30:07 This is a violation of the first and most important of the Bill of Rights. And it's another demonstration of how our legal system is fundamentally corrupted by power and money. And oftentimes the only real check you have on that is public scrutiny, which is why I'm so glad that notwithstanding all the gag orders and the lamb basting that the sketch artist got, and I know that individual, her name is Katya. And she was just trying to exercise her First Amendment right to draw and got screamed at at court and told if she took another sketch of anyone in the courtroom that was not permitted by the court, she'd be tossed out and possibly jailed.

30:47 I know that despite all those challenges, there were a lot of people heard about that trial. And that's a testament to the vitality of democracy, not because of powerful people, not because of our government, but because of ordinary people who fought for their rights, their right to be heard, their right to know what's unfolding behind closed doors. And I'd also like to just point out as a citizen, a taxpayer, look at the turnout of law enforcement, like it's World War III at one of these open rescues where people are holding flowers and singing songs. Meanwhile, I'm afraid to walk my dog after 1030 at night. Okay. Meanwhile, there are big box stores that are being cleaned out to the point where they're shutting down in California because there's so much theft.

31:36 And yet, where are the cops? Where are the cops on my block? Where are the cops cracking down on that and a myriad of other problems that we have in California and across the United States. But you try to rescue some chickens. Oh boy, let's bring out the Marines. You know, look at that. That to me was so infuriating as a taxpayer. We got more callers. Annie and Sherman Oaks, question for Wayne Chung or Maree Holden, who is also here. We don't want to neglect her. Hi. Thank you, Jane. Thank you, Wayne. Thank you, Maree.

32:16 You guys are no less than heroes, really. Heroes don't come in capes. Heroes come in your form. You know, you are leading this whole movement to the bright light. So one of the questions I would love to hear from both you, Wayne and Maree, what can be done about the government's involvement and keeping everything in the hush-hush silence, which you kind of addressed? What can we do as citizens? Is there a way we could do class action? Because these are crimes that are being perpetrated by the government, who is on top of all the law. Okay, good question.

32:57 Good question. Let's give them a chance to answer. Maree, I want to take that out to you. We have Prop 12. We have Prop 2. I collected signatures for Prop 2. I collected signatures for Prop 12. These are laws on the book that say that animals have to be treated a certain way and factory farms are not exempt, but nobody will prosecute them. There has not been, to my knowledge, any prosecutions based on these two propositions, these animal welfare propositions. I think a big part of the problem here, and Wayne talked about this a bit as well, is that the way our law works is not simply that there are laws on the books, those laws are broken, and then folks who break those laws are prosecuted.

33:43 It's much more political than that, right? So there are laws being enforced against animal rights activists, particularly with respect to open rescue, that might not otherwise be enforced with the same fervour, with the same aggressiveness by the state, except that there are the interests of powerful corporations that are at stake. We see this as well with what happened in the Shack case, with the Animal Enterprises Terrorism Act, with what is dubbed as domestic terrorism in this country, when really it's activism on behalf of beings who are suffering, who don't have a voice, and then people who are trying to give that voice.

34:27 And so I think using the legal process is incredibly important. Things like class actions, like our caller mentioned, consumer protection suits, all of those sorts of things, I think the movement should be addressing the issue with every possible legal avenue that it can find. And until we have a swell of public support underneath, where enough people are saying, we don't want to see animals abused, and we demand that the political process, that the legal process be used in a way that protects animals and not just big corporations, I think that we will continue to see a lot of this stuff happen.

35:14 And that's a big part of what the Open Rescue Movement is trying to achieve, is to- Let me say this, I want to jump in. So you're saying there could be a class action suit by citizens such as myself, I live in California, I voted for Prop 2, I voted for Prop 12, I collected signatures, no prosecution, no enforcement. I even went up to a legislator, a state legislator at an event and I said, you know, there's never been a prosecution involving violations of the Prop 2 or the Prop 12. And she said, well, she brushed me off. Well, we don't have money for enforcement and just sort of trotted off. And I thought, whoa, we are screwed.

35:54 So maybe we should think about that. Maybe we should, you know, a lot of good ideas come out of these podcasts. I think we should think about filing a class action suit about that. And I'd certainly be happy to lend my name as somebody who does not want to see my tax dollars personally as an individual going to the prosecution of people who are rescuing animals, while those who are abusing animals inside factory farms get to violate the law with impunity. Let's think about that. Okay, we are going to do one more caller, Christina in Los Angeles. Thank you for your patience. If you're still there, your question or thought. Hi there. Yes.

36:35 Wayne, I have a question. I just heard recently that Taiwan has banned animal experiments. I didn't get to read all the details of it. I'm wondering if Taiwan, since it's also my original country and where your family's from, do you think that there's any possibility of trying to reach out and work with the government in terms of publicising what they have done and then also in conjunction with your situation in your case? Yeah, so shout out to all the Taiwanese activists who've been working so hard.

37:16 And they definitely discredit the idea that people in China don't support animal rights because there are enormous movements for animal rights in Taiwan and China. And Taiwan, for those of you who don't know, is just one of the leading vegan cities in the world. There are vegan restaurants everywhere. It's no surprise that Taiwan and Taipei are also the first nation in the world to recognise same-sex marriage rights. And they also happen to be very supportive of animal rights, which is great. I think the second question, what role does government play? And Murray was mentioning some of the problems we've seen in government. Zhang was talking about the possibility of bringing a class act. All these strategies and tactics are important.

37:56 But the most important thing for people to understand about government law is that what the law is is fundamentally up to us, not up to people in robes, not up to lawyers, not up to elected officials. And we've seen that time and time again, especially when a law is not being enforced. We had a law in the books in the 1960s called the Equal Protection Amendment. It was not just a law. It was part of the American Constitution. It was the 14th Amendment that gave everyone in this country equal protection under the laws. And yet everywhere in the country, people of colour like myself were denied that basic right. And ultimately, it wasn't us just going to the government and saying, hey, do you guys mind giving me my rights?

38:42 People had to fight and sacrifice, in some cases die, to achieve the upholding of that very important legal principle. You look at same-sex marriage. It was not ultimately the government officials themselves who drove progress on same-sex rights. In the 1980s, when there was another pandemic killing off hundreds of people in this country, there were protests and marches and campaigns all over the country to say that silence is death, that this is not okay. We are no longer going to hide in the shadows. We're going to be out, we're going to be proud, and we're going to say, we don't just have the right to be gay, we have the right to marry. Our love has a right to be enshrined as a constitutional right. And people laughed and mocked, in some cases, beat up and even killed activists in the 1980s for fighting for gay rights.

39:26 And lo and behold, 25 years later, we have the Supreme Court case, Obergefell v. Hodges, that announced same-sex marriage is now a constitutional right, as it should have been back in the 1980s. So fundamentally, government is always at the back of the train. It's not at the front of the chain. The engine for progress is the grassroots, and you and I and the other people in the grassroots have to recognise our power to be authors of the law. Do you think we're going to have to wait 25 years? Because there's a slight difference. With this movement, we're facing a climate apocalypse. In fact, Unchained TV has a great documentary called Countdown to Year Zero about it that says, we've got only a few short years to transition to a plant-based culture because animal agriculture is such a huge contributor to climate change.

40:19 So with this clock ticking, how can we accelerate this movement? What is the fastest way to get people to wake up? You're right, the clock's ticking. And it's not just 25 years. I mean, every second, if you look at the kill counters of the number of animals who are going through just unfathomable suffering, I mean, every second, it's literally, I think thousands of animals are dying and being tortured in just ways that are hard to even imagine. I mean, I've seen these things firsthand, and I've had trouble imagining them. But I think we can achieve this in 25 years. And by it, I mean an animal Bill of Rights, the idea that animals are persons under the US Constitution who are entitled to their life and their liberty.

41:01 And one of the biggest things we need to do in the grassroots, because I'm all about grassroots power, and I think the history and evidence on social change shows that grassroots power is what creates change, is we need a large number of people in the grassroots understanding that vision. So often, people just are so scared to speak out. They're afraid even to ask for bigger cages or better desks. At best, maybe they ask their parents and their friends, oh, do you mind buying the free-range chicken? And I think it's a great sentiment that people want cage-free eggs and free-range chicken. But the thing that is going to drive progress at an exponential scale is for us to have a big dream and the ability to defend that dream. That is literally what Martin Luther King Jr.

41:43 did in 1963. He said, I have a dream. He didn't say, I have a small reform that I hope you will join in. He said, I got a dream, not just that we end segregation, but little black kids and little white kids and little Chinese kids can walk together and fun town, and we don't have to worry about who has more power, who's allowed to be or who's not, because we understand that we all have equal rights. Similarly, we have to understand the vision. Our vision is a world that people will get behind if we defend it. It's a world where every single animal who's currently being tortured is given a life that's safe, happy, and free, and that's enshrined in the U.S. Constitution. And we have to defend that vision, we have to strategise around that vision, and we need people in the grassroots to understand the importance of that vision. And if we do that, then I think most Americans and most people around the world have compassion for animals.

42:30 They want that to happen too. It's our job to show them that vision is not just realistic, but it is inevitable, because as you said, Jane, if we are going to save life as we know it on this earth, we need to let these animals out of the cages, because it's not just killing them, it's killing us too. Oh, yeah. I mean, we've reduced wildlife biomass, mammal biomass of wildlife to 4% while increasing livestock biomass, mammal biomass to 62%. As somebody, I think it might have been you said, most living beings are living in cages today. I mean, the sickness of it. But I've got to ask you a question.

43:11 Why is it that more people don't get it? I mean, you have to be living under a rock at this point to not know that milk involves terrible cruelty, meat involves terrible cruelty, and yet there are so many people, the vast majority, who just are not paying attention no matter what. And then you try to show them the videos. It's see no evil, hear no evil. And then we're going to go back to the callers. I think that one of the fundamental attributes of human psychology and decision making and identity is that we're highly social animals.

43:54 And we are willing to deny our own eyes what we see if the society around us tells us something different. And there is a very famous experiment that's been replicated many times by a psychologist named Solomon Ash at Harvard University, where he asked people to look at a set of lines. And just ask them to answer the question, which line is longer? When it was very clear, you look at line A, you look at line B, line A is clearly longer. And anyone's got eyes can see this. And what he found is that something like 70% of people would give the wrong answer, would reject even their own eyes when they were planted in a group where everyone else was given the wrong answer. And that's, you know, it's not a good or bad, it's just who we are.

44:38 In many ways, it's great that we're such social animals. And we believe so much in working with the people around us. But it also leads us astray. And the Solomon Ash experiment in what's happening to animals is an example of this. So to me, the fundamental problem is, if you look at the Solomon Ash experiments, this is a solution to those experiments, too, is if you don't get a critical mass of people willing to be dissenters and say, look, everyone else may be saying it's fine to torture and kill these animals. But honest to God, when I think about it, I can't stomach this. This has got to stop. And what Solomon Ash found is if you can get a critical mass of dissenters to buck back, to push back against the norm, you can basically inoculate people from that social effect. You can cure the problem of all these people denying what they see with their own eyes.

45:21 And you get to 100% accuracy. 100% of people say like, oh, wait, if there's at least one other person backing me up and saying line A is the longer line, I'm willing to do it too. And the same is true of animals. If we had a critical mass, and the evidence from another Harvard scholar named Erica Chenoweth suggests we only really need 3.5% of the population. We can get 3.5% of the population to come out and say, you know what, I'm not sure I like the idea of scalding animals alive, of confining beagle puppies in a cage to the point they're psychotic and spinning for hours endlessly. If we can get 3.5% of the population speaking out about this, then the entire house of cards will collapse. And so that's our task, to persuade people we need to create enough momentum that all the people out there who do agree with us, but aren't willing to say it, suddenly feel confident enough to come out right and say, you know what, I don't like this either.

46:09 And that's why I started Unchained TV, the world's only plant-based animal rights streaming network, because with 8.1 billion humans, we cannot talk to everybody individually. We must use mass media, and we must use every single technology. Streaming has overtaken broadcasting cable as the number one way people are consuming TV, and there it is. There's Unchained TV on my Samsung TV behind me. You can also download it with an Apple device, Apple Plus device, or an Amazon Fire Stick, or a Roku device. So download it and be part of the solution, because it doesn't belong to me.

46:49 It's a community-free, community streaming network, just like Netflix. It's right there on any TV. All right, Sarah's been very patient. Sarah in Beverly Hills, your question or thought? Hi, my question is for Wayne. I wanted to find out, even though the charges got dismissed, and they're planning on going to the Beagle place, I want to find out when is the Beagle testing place going to shut down, and when they go there, is that the goal to shut it down? Because I think that's really what I want to know.

47:32 Thank you. And I think the answer is up to you, and me, and everyone else. This is a facility that has been in violation of law for decades. I don't think there's any dispute about that. Even the USDA's inspectors have acknowledged this. There are recent reports from the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture showing this. This is a facility that, in my view, is just as bad or worse than the InVigo facility that was shut down last year by the federal government. I think maybe it was in 2022. In many ways, that facility, a Beagle breeding facility in Virginia, was better than this facility in Wisconsin. But the government doesn't act to do anything to help these dogs because there's a lot of money at stake.

48:16 If you look at Dane County, the top 20 employers, I think over half of them are involved in the biomedical industry in some way. And some of the biggest players are players that are deeply involved in animal testing. And that allows them to literally break the law repeatedly with no accountability. If the laws of this nation were enforced, Ridgeland would immediately be shut down and all the animals there would be saved. To get there, we need more public outcry. And so on March 18th, a lot of us are posting, making phone calls, sending emails with the hashtag BeagleBetrayal, just trying to highlight this issue and put pressure on the elected officials of our government, government we pay for. We're the taxpayers.

48:58 These are employees of ours who work on behalf of the people and are chosen by the people. We're asking everyone to join us in pressuring the government to do the right thing, which is helping those dogs at Ridgeland. And if we get enough people to support us on March 18th, I'm not saying Ridgeland and other animal abusing facilities will have to release their animals immediately, but I think we'll make significant progress in freeing every single one of those dogs from the cages in which they've lived their entire lives. And we also need to pass things like the Modernisation Act, which will eliminate animal testing. And in this incredible article, Bred to Suffer, the writer talks about, these labs have conducted experiments, including infecting dogs with lethal pathogens, such as Salmonella and rabies, forcing ingestion of laundry detergents and exposing them to drugs, and pesticides.

49:58 So another thing is, and this is from The Intercept, don't use products that are tested on animals. If you don't see a leaping bunny or an actual sign that says not tested on animals, do not buy it. Duty products and the people who promote them routinely lie. They just say, oh yeah, sometimes they assume that it's not tested on animals. This isn't, you know, people think, well, life or death. I mean, the vast majority of these experiments, not that any experiments are valid when it comes to animals, because 95% of the results that work on animals don't work on people, but it's things like detergent and pesticides and these horrible things.

50:41 So if you don't want to see animals tortured, don't buy the products. That's number one. Do not buy anything that is, doesn't clearly say not tested on animals. If it doesn't say that it is tested on animals. Wow. There's just so much going on here. We're in our final thoughts. I want to apologise to Murray because this, I did not expect this many callers, but what, where do we go from here? What's the next step for this movement legally in the courts?

51:40 And so we're looking for new ways to do that here in Wisconsin and elsewhere. There is another right to rescue trial that will be happening in Sonoma County at some point. And so I think the open rescue movement continues. The movement is alive and well, we will have additional trials. The convergence is still happening in Wisconsin, even though there's not a trial, there will be many actions folks can find out about that on Direct Action Everywhere's website. So things are happening legal and non-legal. And I think for me, it's so important for us in the movement to be making these animals individuals and not just a big mass of nameless, faceless dogs in labs and chickens in factory farms.

52:27 And that's part of what these right to rescue trials do is they help people look at individual animals like Julie, who was rescued from this facility in Wisconsin. I've gotten to know Julie and she's absolutely a sentient being that no one, no one who loves dogs, no one would ever want to hurt Julie or force feed her laundry detergent. But people have a harder time having that same amount of empathy and compassion for a larger number of animals. And so I think a big part of what we need to do in our legal strategy and in our movement strategy in general is to individualise these animals and show human beings, this is Julie. This is what she went through. This is who she is and she deserves to be free. And every single one of the thousands of dogs in this facility in Wisconsin is just like her.

53:12 Wayne, we have one minute. I wish I had one hour or two hours, but your final thought. I mean, I guess I'll close the way I've closed a lot of interviews and talks, which is, I mean, I think there are 10 words that can change the world for animals and for us too. And they're find your voice, find some friends and fight like hell. If we do those three things, the world will change. But like I said, it's up to us. We can't just wait for the government. We can't wait for prosecutors, corporate CEOs to make this change. We have to bring the change ourselves. And the amazing thing is all of us do have that power. You've got that power. You just got to see it in yourself. There was a time in my life where I didn't believe it. And I was a very timid academic.

53:54 I'm still a very nerdy, timid person in a lot of ways. And I've found my confidence and my power by walking into these places and realising you can't get them out of hell. And all of you need to see the same power in your hands. Wayne, you inspire me to carry on. And that's why I'm going to urge everybody right now, download Unchained TV, the world's only vegan streaming network. You can download it on any phone for free and on any TV via your Amazon Fire Stick, your Roku device, or your Apple TV device. And it's also on any television, like the Samsung TV behind me. You just go to the smart hub. You just put in Unchained TV, one word, and you can literally, you can text this interview to your friends.

54:42 Okay. So this interview is on the streaming network. You just hit text. Boom. It is going on right now and you can text it. You can text all the animal rights documentaries. 8.1 billion people on the planet. We've got to use technology and we've got to use mass media. I want to thank you both. You are my heroes. Wayne, you inspire me every single day. I think, what would Wayne do? How would he handle it? I'm serious. You keep me going. Thank you so much. And see you next time here on Unchained TV.